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Colorlines in Classical North Africa
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: The man on the right has completely different facial features than what is shown in the painting. So what?! They're both 'black' people by today's standards. If you're hung up on something as trivial as facial features then you're going to lose to the Euronut warriors.[/QUOTE]No that egyptian would be seen as "arab" by most europeans and blacks living in the West. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: The skeletal remains of the Delta have already been classified as African. [i]..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.[/i] [Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation". (2005) Routledge. p.52-60][/QUOTE]As usual, you are twisting the authors' statements. You are essentially implying the existence of a single, uniform "African" pattern, even though both you and I are well aware of the significant morphological differences between ancient NAs and SSAs. As for Northern Egyptians, Neolithic Merimde shows affinities with the Levant and late dynastic egyptians : [QUOTE]The Merimde specimens were tall, with a mean femur length in males of 47.1 cms, compared to 43.6cm at Maadi and 44.7 cm at Byblos (Fig 6.2). They also had long narrow crania, moderately long faces and narrow noses. The last two features distinguish them from Predynastic populations and [b]align them more closely both with later Dynastic populations and with the southern Levant[/b] (fig. 6.3). Beck and Klug (1990) described the Maadi and Wadi Digla samples as showing long narrow crania and short faces similar to those of other Predynastic sites in Egypt, [b]but resembling some sites in the Levant in nasal and orbital characteristics.[/b] [/QUOTE]P. Smith, The Palaeo-Biological evidence for admixture between populations in the southern levant and Egypt in the fourth to third millenia BCE, 2002 Your "African" affinity is primarily a result of limb proportions, which we both know are not determined by genetic similarity but rather by adaptations to the climate : [QUOTE] Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and Merimde group them with African rather than European populations. [...] reinforcing the impression of an african rather than a levantine affinity. [/QUOTE]P. Smith, The Palaeo-Biological evidence for admixture between populations in the southern levant and Egypt in the fourth to third millenia BCE, 2002 [QUOTE] [b]The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat[/b] . Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). [b]It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.[/b] [/QUOTE]Brace, C. L. et al. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31. Again Maadi and Wadi Digla show affinity with the Southern Levant and Egyptians : [QUOTE]Morphologically, both groups belong to a relatively robust type.…Differences between the Maadi and Wadi Digla series in regard to metric features could not be statistically proven. [b]The results of the supraregional population comparison pointed to similarities with the Palestinian area [Gaza, Israel, the West Bank] in regard to several metric variables …though a clear relationship with Egyptian comparison groups was demonstratable.[/b] [/QUOTE] https://ehrafarchaeology.yale.edu/traditions/mr60/documents/018 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: As far as genetics is concerned, uniparentals show them to be overwhelmingly African (Y-DNA E-M35 & mt M1 and L2). The only thing left is autosomal DNA which is the only thing left in debate and for obvious reasons. The autosomal DNA shows Natufian/Neolithic Levantine affiliations which many identify as "Eurasian".[/QUOTE]Once again, you are providing misleading information to him. These uniparental genetic markers are still present in modern Egypt. Furthermore, the majority of uniparental markers extracted from ancient Egyptian remains are predominantly Eurasian : [QUOTE] [b]However, nearly all of the remains excavated in the Northern part of the continent belong to Eurasian mtDNA lineages[/b] [63,67,74,89,90]. [74]). [b]In fact, of the 114 mtDNA genomes now available from northern African ancient human remains, only one belongs to an African lineage (L3 observed in a skeleton from Abusir el-Meleq[/b] The deep presence of Eurasian mtDNA lineages in Northern Africa has, therefore, been clearly established with these recent reports and offers further support for the authenticity of the Eurasian mtDNA sequence observed in the Djehutynakht mummy[/QUOTE] https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/9/3/135/htm Results are similar for an upcoming paper spanning 4000 years of History : [QUOTE] We now focus on widening the geographic scope to give a general overview of the population genetic background, focusing on mitochondrial haplogroups present among the whole Egyptian Nile River Valley. We collected 81 tooth, hair, bone, and soft tissue samples from 14 mummies and 17 skeletal remains. The samples span approximately 4000 years of Egyptian history and originate from six different excavation sites covering the whole length of the Egyptian Nile River Valley. NGS based ancient DNA 8 were applied to reconstruct 18 high-quality mitochondrial genomes from 10 different individuals. [b]The determined mitochondrial haplogroups match the results from our Abusir el-Meleq study[/b] . Our results indicate very low rates of modern DNA contamination independent of the tissue type. [/QUOTE] https://isba9.sciencesconf.org/data/pages/Abstract_Book_ISBA9_2022.pdf [QUOTE] The proposed sibling relationship between Tutankhamun’s parents, KV55 (Akhenaten) and KV35YL, is further supported. The royal lineage is composed of [b]the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b and the mitochondrial haplogroup K. Population genetics point to a common origin at ca. 14. 000–28. 000 years before present locating to the Near East.[/b] [/QUOTE] https://www.docdroid.net/EC8uFeh/gad-et-al-hawass-fs-final-2020-pdf#page=11 [QUOTE] [b]The great-grandfather of Tutankhamun, Yuya, carries a Y-chromosomal signature that could be assigned to the haplogroup G2a.[/b] Haplogroup G is an F-affiliated clade (Luis et al. 2004, 532–544; Wood et al. 2005, 867–876), [b]and it is defined by the mutation M201[/b] (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Luis et al. 2004, 532–544; Wood et al. 2005, 867–876; Karafet et al. 2008, 830–838). [b]This clade is not globally abundant, and its prevalence is mainly in the Middle East (highest in Druze), the Mediterranean basin and Caucasus Mountains where it exhibits its maximum frequency[/b] (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Karafet et al. 2008, 830–838; Balanovsky et al. 2011, 18255–18259; Lacan et al. 2011, 2905–2920). The pattern of this haplogroup distribution in the Caucasus suggests a Near Eastern origin (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Balanovsky et al. 2011, 18255–18259). The genetic share of the F-affiliated groups (G, H, I, J) is around 40% of the modern Egyptians, with G-M201 representing approximately 9% of the population (Luis et al. 2004, 532–544).[/QUOTE] https://www.docdroid.net/EC8uFeh/gad-et-al-hawass-fs-final-2020-pdf#page=22 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Yet as [URL=http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2016/06/pca-admixture-results-for-natufians.html]Ethio-Helix[/URL] has pointed out: [QUOTE] [i]That's a 3D interactive PCA (Principal Component Analysis) based on autosomal SNPs made by David Wesolowski who authors the Eurogenes genome blog and ancestry project. What's particularly interesting to me about it are the PCA positions of the Natufians and the Neolithic Levantines... With the *former group pulling southwards toward African populations such as North, East & West-Central Africans.* Eurogenes ANE K7 ENF: 77% WHG-UHG: 16% East African: 8% Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Middle Eastern Herder: 64% Mediterranean Farmer: 30% East African Pastoralist: 7% Eurogenes K12b Southwest Asian: 54% Mediterranean: 38% East African: 8% That pull along with the above ADMIXTURE results (via Gedmatch) of one Natufian seem to contradict what Lazaridis et al. was saying about the Natufians lacking African admixture but I would caution against using modern PCA positions (like those of Bedouins) and, of course, modern ADMIXTURE runs (with modern clusters based on modern genetic diversity) to gauge how "African" or "Eurasian/Out-of-Africa" an ~11,000-14,000 year old population was. I.e. These Natufians are, of course, not "Southwest Asian" + "Mediterranean" but, instead, they're just showing the greatest affinity for these modern clusters. As in, populations probably quite like them to some degree; contributed to the formation of clusters like Southwest Asian & Mediterranean. But, it's still strange that they'd show such an affinity for an African cluster like the East African one.[/i][/QUOTE]It's not strange at all if one remembers that there was greater genetic diversity among human populations before the Holocene than today and such was likely the case as it pertains to African populations. Remember that ANA (Ancestral North African) was originally mistaken to be "Eurasian" as well. [b]LOL[/b] It's only going to be a matter of time that this Natufain/Levantine Neolithic as the only hope left of "Hamitic Hypothesis" fails. [/QB][/QUOTE]Lmao what you posted literally shows that their african admixture was extremely low ...Modern North Africans literally have more XD Natufian ancestry peaks in modern day arabs and Natufians didn't cluster with any SSA population : [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/imvENPJ.png[/IMG] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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