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Phylogeography of the human Y chromosome haplogroup E3a
F. Cruciani1, B. Trombetta1, D. Sellitto2, C. Nodale1, R. Scozzari1;

1Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy, 2Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche, Rome, Italy.
Presentation Number: P07.134
The Y chromosome specific biallelic marker DYS271 defines the most common haplogroup (E3a) currently found in sub-Saharan Africa. A sister clade, E3b (E-M215), is rare in sub-Saharan Africa, but very common in northern and eastern Africa.

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Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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The new topology of the E3 haplogroup is suggestive of a relatively recent eastern African origin for the majority of the chromosomes presently found in sub-Saharan Africa.

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Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Evergreen:
Phylogeography of the human Y chromosome haplogroup E3a
F. Cruciani1, B. Trombetta1, D. Sellitto2, C. Nodale1, R. Scozzari1;
1Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy, 2Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche, Rome, Italy.
Presentation Number: P07.134
The Y chromosome specific biallelic marker DYS271 defines the most common haplogroup (E3a) currently found in sub-Saharan Africa. A sister clade, E3b (E-M215), is rare in sub-Saharan Africa, but very common in northern and eastern Africa. On the whole, these two clades represent more than 70% of the Y chromosomes of the African continent. A third clade belonging to E3 (E3c or E-M329) has been recently reported to be present only in eastern Africa, at low frequencies.
In this study we analyzed more than 1,600 Y chromosomes from 55 African populations, using both new and previously described biallelic markers, in order to refine the phylogeny and the geographic distribution of the E3a haplogroup.
The most common E-DYS271 sub-clades (E-DYS271*, E-M191, E-U209) showed a non uniform distribution across sub-Saharan Africa. Most of the E-DYS271 chromosomes found in northern and western Africa belong to the paragroup E-DYS271*, which is rare in central and southern Africa. In these latter regions, haplogroups E-M191 and E-U209 show similar frequency distributions and coalescence ages (13 and 11 kyr, respectively), suggesting their involvement in the same migratory event/s.
By the use of two new phylogenetically equivalent markers (V38 and V89), the earlier tripartite structure of E3 haplogroup was resolved in favor of a common ancestor for haplogroups E-DYS271 (formerly E3a) and E-M329 (formerly E3c). The new topology of the E3 haplogroup is suggestive of a relatively recent eastern African origin for the majority of the chromosomes presently found in sub-Saharan Africa.

SOURCE: ESHG 2008

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Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by lamin:
It's fairly obvious why Cruciani et al. want to take E3b out of the "negro reservation" they call "sub-Saharan Africa" is because E3b is just not confined there, so in order to avoid having to link the extra-sub-Saharan areas where E3b is found with the "sub-Saharan" areas where it is found--they just deny that E3b is "sub-Saharan" in a blatant display of contradictory cognitive dissonance.

But do they really care about being contradictory in such an obvious way when it comes to Africa? Not really!

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Evergreen:
Phylogeography of the human Y chromosome haplogroup E3a

By the use of two new phylogenetically equivalent markers (V38 and V89), the earlier tripartite structure of E3 haplogroup was resolved in favor of a common ancestor for haplogroups E-DYS271 (formerly E3a) and E-M329 (formerly E3c). The new topology of the E3 haplogroup is suggestive of a relatively recent eastern African origin for the majority of the chromosomes presently found in sub-Saharan Africa.

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Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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"Actually, the discriminant function technique we have used is better at showing
how likely it is that the group being tested can be excluded from the group to which
it is compared (and see the discussion in Brace and Tracer, 1992). The algorithm
demands that the probability figures add up to a sum of 1.00. This means we can
believe it when the P value says that there is no chance of membership in a given
group, but when it says that membership cannot be excluded, we have to be somewhat
more careful. For example, we could enter the measurements from the cranium
of a chimpanzee or a sea lion, and the program would generate figures
indicating the degree of discrimination, but their sum would have to add up to 1.0.
If we compare these or others with any two modern human cranial series and they
are equally unlikely to be included, the P value in each cell will be 0.5, which is not
sufficient to exclude the possibility of membership. Yet obviously we know that a
chimpanzee or a sea lion cranial configuration will never be found in a modern
human series.

The groups compared in Table 5 are all Late or post-Pleistocene Homo sapiens
from adjacent parts of the Old World, and these include the Late Paleolithic Afalou
and Taforalt specimens from Algeria and the Wadi Halfa material from the Sudan;
the Neolithic at Naqada, Algeria, England, and Germany; the Bronze Age of Nubia
and Jericho; Somalis, and Late Dynastic Egyptians; and modern lumped clusters
from Africa, North Africa, Europe, and South Asia. There is no chance, then, of
creating the absurdity of the example we have just mentioned, but there is just the
possibility that we have more reason to trust loadings indicating exclusion from
the group in question-i.e., who a given androgynous “pseudo-individual” is not than
we can have confidence in figures showing that it cannot be eliminated from
consideration for membership in the group in question. The latter point may in
part be a product of the nature of the algorithm rather than a reliable indicator of
group membership.

Having said that, we can look at the exclusions indicated in Table 5. First we
should note that the averaged figure represented in each column heading was run
separately against the groups represented in the labels for the rows, so the results
are not comparable to a picture of common variance and this is not a symmetrical
matrix. For example, when the Late Dynastic sample from Giza is treated as a
single individual and tested against the roster named, it was significantly different
from nine of the 12 other groups represented. The groups from which membership
was least likely to be excluded were the lumped Europeans and the Predynastic
population from Upper Egypt, with P values of 0.837 and 0.110 respectively. When
the Predynastic group was tested against the other 12, the probability that it could
be excluded from modern Europeans was 0.390, and from the Late Dynastic sample
it was 0.218, neither of which is significant. This is not quite the same thing as
saying that the Late Dynastic people of Lower Egypt had an 84% chance of being
Europeans or that the Naqada sample had a 39% chance of being Europeans or a
22% chance of being from Giza.

***

The indications of exclusion, however, are much easier to interpret. For example,
the likelihood that either the Giza or Naqada configuration could occur in West
Africa, the Congo, or points south is vanishingly small-0.000 and 0.001. Whatever
else one can or cannot say about the Egyptians, it is clear that their craniofacial
morphology has nothing whatsoever in common with sub-Saharan Africans.

***

Our data, then, provide no support for the claim that there was a “strong negroid
element” in Predynastic Egypt (Asante, 1990; Morant, 1937; Randall-Mac Iver and
Woolley, 1909; Strouhal, 1971).

Nubia, for its part, is significantly different from six of the 12 groups with which
it is compared. It comes close to being excluded from the Late Dynastic sample
from Giza in Lower Egypt, and it comes within few percentage points of being
excluded from sub-Saharan Africa as well. Nubians cannot be excluded from modern
Europeans or from their northern neighbors at Predynastic Naqada, and
barely from modern Somalis. Perhaps somewhat more surprisingly, they also cannot
be excluded from South Asia-the Indian subcontinent. This simply reaffirms
what can be seen in Figures 2-4.

The discriminant function procedure allows us to test single specimens against
whatever groups we choose. In Table 5, we include the results of comparisons of a
series of Epipaleolithic, Neolithic, Bronze Age, and more recent specimens and
groups with the three major adjacent geographic areas-Africa, Europe, and South
Asia-and our samples from the Nile delta south to the equator. The terminal
Pleistocene material from Afalou and Taforalt in Algeria (Arambourg et al., 1934;
Vallois and Movius, 1953:200) and Wadi Halfa in Nubia (Greene and Armelagos,
1972) are roughly contemporary (Wendorf, 19681, but obviously very different.
Of all the groups and specimens tested, Wadi Halfa differed at a high level of
significance in more of the comparisons than any other. There were only two
groups from which it could not be convincingly excluded the recent Nubians and
the roster of sub-Saharan Africans. Remembering our cautions about the nature of
the discriminant function algorithm, it still seems reasonable to suspect that there
was something of a mixture of sub-Saharan Africa as well as Nubia in that prehistoric
group at Wadi Halfa.

The Late Pleistocene material from Afalou and Taforalt in North Africa, on the
other hand, had no similarity with sub-Saharan Africa. Instead, the groups from
which it cannot be distinguished range from the Neolithic of Algeria and Egypt,
modern Nubia, and especially modern Europe. The pattern of affiliations of the
Algerian Neolithic is remarkably similar to that of the Algerian Late Pleistocene
at Afalou and Taforalt and suggests long-term in situ population continuity.
We collected measurements for a single specimen from what was called the
Nubian X Group in Reisner’s terminology (Reisner, 1909). This was a population
that immediately preceded the early Christian Nubians of AD 550 (Carlson and
Van Gerven, 19791, and, in the subjective treatment of a generation gone by, had
been regarded as evidence for a “Negroid incursion’’ (Batrawi, 1935; Smith, 1909;
Seligman, 1915). As our figures show, the probability of finding our representative
specimen in a sub-Saharan population is 0.009, which is highly unlikely. Its column
loadings are generally similar to the loadings in the column for the Predynastic
Naqada sample, and, except for the fact that it is only marginally unlikely
that it can be excluded from the Giza sample, it cannot be denied membership in
the Naqada, European, or South Asian samples. In all, however, it is least likely
16 YEARBOOK OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY [Vol. 36, 1993
to differ from its successors right there in Nubia (0.406) than from any of the other
groups against which it is compared."

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Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Whatever
else one can or cannot say about the Egyptians, it is clear that their craniofacial
morphology has nothing whatsoever in common with sub-Saharan Africans.

Our data, then, provide no support for the claim that there was a “strong negroid
element” in Predynastic Egypt (Asante, 1990; Morant, 1937; Randall-Mac Iver and
Woolley, 1909; Strouhal, 1971).

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Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Evergreen:
Evergreen Writes:

Cruciani et al. seem to want to create an artificial distinction between East Africans and other tropical Africans to produce a buffer between Blacks and Mediterranean Whites. The problem he faces is that East and West Africans share a common post Out-of-Africa migration ancestry within the last 28,000 (PN2 clade). Phenotype is impacted by environment. Carriers of the PN2 clade (haplogroup E3a and E3b) are products of the African environment.

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Originally posted by Evergreen:
Strange Fact About Blue-Eyed People

If you have blue eyes, you are very likely related to every other blue-eyed person on the planet!

That's the word from researchers at Copenhagen University in Denmark, who conclude that everyone with blue eyes descends from a single "founder," an ancestor whose genes mutated 6,000 to 10,000 years ago, reports USA Today. Until then, everyone had brown eyes.

Led by geneticist Hans Eiberg, the study began in 1973 when he researched a Danish father with 17 children who carried the gene for both blue and brown eyes. Eventually, Eiberg was able to trace the trait for blue eyes to a specific area near the gene OCA2. Next, the Copenhagen team tested 155 people from Scandinavia, Turkey, Jordan and India, all of whom had blue eyes, to see if they had similar DNA sequences in that gene. They weren't just similar; they were identical. That told the scientists that the mutation for blue eyes happened so recently that it hadn't had time to change, reports USA Today.

Human beings have two genes for eye color; one is inherited from the father and the other from the mother. Since brown eyes are dominant, a person could have a gene for blue eyes and one for brown eyes and he or she would have brown eyes. For someone to have blue eyes, he or she must have two genes for blue eyes.

In human beings, brown eyes are the default, and blue occurs only when that default is turned off. Eiberg says when the first blue-eyed mutation occurred, the person who carried it would have had brown eyes. But as time proceeded, a man and a woman who each carried that one blue-eyed gene mutation mated and produced the world's first blue-eyed baby. Eiberg suspects that would have been a huge surprise to them. "If the child was the only one to have blue eye color and everyone else has brown, it could have been very interesting," he told USA Today.

Today, some 300 million people carry that one mutation, and it is still not known why it is so common in some populations. Blue eyes are relatively rare in the United States, but very common in countries near the mutation epicenter, which the researchers have pinpointed to be somewhere in the Balkans or near the Black Sea. In Estonia, for example, 99 percent of the population has blue eyes, while 75 percent of Germans have blue eyes.

If you have blue eyes, that means you are related to Brad Pitt, Courteney Cox, Uma Thurman, Kate Walsh, Reese Witherspoon and Elijah Wood.

The study findings were published in the journal Human Genetics.

--From the Editors at Netscape

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Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
And notice where it seems they happened to take note of it:

"Wadi Halfa differed at a high level of
significance in more of the comparisons than any other. There were only two
groups from which it could not be convincingly excluded the recent Nubians and
*the roster* of sub-Saharan Africans."

Though, since, Brace has attributed the West African physical morphology to being the result of a wet, moist tropical environment in contrast to a dry and arid desert environ. According to a forum member (C.B.) anyway.

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Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):

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Originally posted by Wolofi:
you are trying to say the J carriers were black? Thats a little excessive don't you think? That's a 15,000 year old haplogroup..not very old.

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^^They sure as heck probably weren't fair-skinned.

A picture of this man



was taken at Latitudenal degree: 25.297338, Longitudenal degree: 83.007886 near "R?mnagar" Uttar Pradesh, India.

That's only five degrees South of the latitude where Hg J is the most abundant, right outside of Africa.

Besides latitude isn't the primary factor as far melanin production is concerned: there are Inuit this color and darker - darker than more Southerly Euros:







As for the genes related to skin color, of relevance to Africa, Europe, and the "Mid East", we have this analysis I've shortened, courtesy of Ausarian/MS:

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Originally posted by Mystery Solver/Supercar:

[...]Taken together (with the results of previous admixture mapping studies), these results point to the importance of several genes in shaping the pigmentation phenotype and a complex evolutionary history involving strong selection. Polymorphisms in 2 genes, ASIP and OCA2, may play a shared role in shaping light and dark pigmentation across the globe, whereas SLC24A5, MATP, and TYR have a predominant role in the evolution of light skin in Europeans but not in East Asians. These findings support a case for the recent convergent evolution of a lighter pigmentation in Europeans and East Asians…

[...]

The mutations in the OCA2 gene may well have implications on imparting paleness, as demonstrated in the south African San people…

The lightly pigmented hunter-gatherer San populations of Southern Africa is exceptional in having a high frequency of the derived allele relative to geographically proximate and more darkly pigmented African populations (Jablonski and Chaplin 2000), further supporting the importance of OCA2 in regulating normal variation in pigmentation. The widespread distribution of the derived allele in the CEPH-Diversity Panel suggests that it is not necessarily a new mutation, nor has it been restricted to a specific geographic area.

************************************************

While it seems plausible that the “derived” OCA2 gene came to being before the out-of-Africa migration that give rise to modern Eurasians, it doesn’t appear that this derived allele was necessarily widespread, and may well have been later on selected for in European and East Asians…

Interestingly, derived allele frequencies at this locus are quite different between Native American (15%) and East Asian populations (45%), suggesting that perhaps the derived allele at this locus did not reach very high frequencies in East Asians until after the colonization of the Americas.

Contrast the situation with OCA2 gene with that of the MATP 374*G allele…

The virtual absence of MATP 374*G-derived allele in the sub-Saharan African populations that we examined in the CEPH-Diversity Panel is consistent with the origin of this mutation outside of Africa AFTER the divergence of modern Asians and Europeans.

Contrasting that of the “derived” SLC24 A5 [as in the case with the “derived” OCA2 allele] , where two possible scenarios arise…

In contrast, the SLC24 A5 11*A-derived allele is found at low frequencies in several sub-Saharan populations including the West African Mandinka and Yoruba, the Southern African San, and South West Bantu.

*************************************************

1)The relatively high frequencies of the derived allele in Central Asian, Middle Eastern, and North Africa seem likely to be due to recent gene flow from European and Central Asian populations.

*************************************************

*************************************************

2)Alternatively, the derived allele may have lost in the ancestors of modern East Asians but retained in the ancestral European populations. The allele then rose to high frequency in Europeans following the divergence of Europeans and East Asian ancestral groups.

The different mechanism of the evolution of light skin in Europeans and East Asians apparent from genetic examination, supports the understanding that evolution of pale skin came very late, because if had occurred prior to the divergence of the Europeans and East Asians, then it seems highly plausible that they would share more in common with one another the dominating alleles in playing a role in skin lightening…but as demonstrated, different set of alleles play dominating role in the lightening effect of the skin in Europeans and East Asians…

Referenced source: Genetic Evidence for the Convergent Evolution of Light Skin in Europeans and East Asians, by Rick Kittles et al. , 2006.

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But Back to the J.

I apologize, I wrote my previous post rather hurriedly.

It has previously (and deceptively) been implied, on this very board by a poster under the alias "chimu", that the fact that North Africans carry J somehow contradicted previously posted skeletal evidence that there was a lack of common ancestors between Pre-Dynastic Lower Egyptian populations and Levant populations over a long time. I responded to it with the above J hap map along with relevant citations from Semino et al 2004.

Including this from his own post:

quote:

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Chimu:

its frequent spread [that of J-M267] in North Africa and the Middle East may have been driven by the expansion of Arabs since the 7th century (Semino et al. 2004).

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Even if some more ancient forms of J exist in North Africa, a haplogroup, or any lineage for that matter, is Not a phenotype.

Do you know the ancestral haplotype?

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Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
Well, maybe the West African 'range of looks' in terms of hair doesn't represent a preserved state ...

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Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Evergreen:
[QUOTE]

Evergreen Writes:

The interesting thing is the Wadi Halfa sample is a part of the Kom Ombo Basin cultures, within whom the oldest E1b1 sub-clade E1b1b1a1 (V12) derived in Southern Egypt/Northern Sudan. Joel D. Irish also notes dental affinities between this group and modern West Africans.

Is it possible that the more elongated features of recent Horn of Africa populations derived during the mid-early holocene due to aridity from a broader morphological complex? Is it possible that groups such as Greeks and Natufians obtain phenotypic characteristics from these so-called "Negroid" groups that originally carried the E3b lineage along the Nile?

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Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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but perhaps 'sub-Saharan' Africans in general retain an ancestral physical appearance in terms of other traits, like skin color, though I understand skin color varies:

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but perhaps 'sub-Saharan' Africans in general retain an ancestral physical appearance in terms of other traits, like skin color, though I understand skin color varies:

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Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by argyle104:
Alive-(What Box) wrote:

quote:

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but perhaps 'sub-Saharan' Africans in general retain an ancestral physical appearance in terms of other traits, like skin color, though I understand skin color varies:

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If you believe that skin color varies then why did you post the above? Is it because you really don't believe that it varies, but you feel you have to say so since other posters like your idols that you are trying to impersonate have said that there is a variance in skin color?


It sounds like you are one of those beatdown African Americans that has suffered an immesurable amount of psychological damage due to low self-esteem, victimhood, and an inferiority complex.


You know you really need to stick to coattailing other posters because when you try your best to impersonate their style and intellect, you make yourself look unintellectual.


So since you have choose to post, impersonate and mutter incoherently, answer these question.


Tell us what "West Africa" is? What countries make up "West Africa"?

quote:

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but perhaps 'sub-Saharan' Africans in general retain an ancestral physical appearance in terms of other traits, like skin color, though I understand skin color varies:

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On what do you base this on? And provide the evidence to support it.

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Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:
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Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
Well, maybe the West African 'range of looks' in terms of hair doesn't represent a preserved state ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evergreen Writes:

West African hair ranges from woolly to wavy. This range of hair is coextensive with what we see in other parts of Africa as well. Can you please elaborate on your statement above?

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Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Evergreen:

quote:

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Originally posted by argyle104:
Alive-(What Box) wrote:

quote:

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but perhaps 'sub-Saharan' Africans in general retain an ancestral physical appearance in terms of other traits, like skin color, though I understand skin color varies:

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If you believe that skin color varies then why did you post the above? Is it because you really don't believe that it varies, but you feel you have to say so since other posters like your idols that you are trying to impersonate have said that there is a variance in skin color?


It sounds like you are one of those beatdown African Americans that has suffered an immesurable amount of psychological damage due to low self-esteem, victimhood, and an inferiority complex.


You know you really need to stick to coattailing other posters because when you try your best to impersonate their style and intellect, you make yourself look unintellectual.


So since you have choose to post, impersonate and mutter incoherently, answer these question.


Tell us what "West Africa" is? What countries make up "West Africa"?

quote:

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but perhaps 'sub-Saharan' Africans in general retain an ancestral physical appearance in terms of other traits, like skin color, though I understand skin color varies:

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On what do you base this on? And provide the evidence to support it.

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Evergreen Writes:

Dear Posters:

Please continue to ignore argyle104. By responding you empower a troll.

Thank you in advance.

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Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by argyle104:
If you believe that skin color varies then why did you post the above?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Evergreen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
Well, maybe the West African 'range of looks' in terms of hair doesn't represent a preserved state ...

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Evergreen Writes:

West African hair ranges from woolly to wavy. This range of hair is coextensive with what we see in other parts of Africa as well.

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quote:

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Can you please elaborate on your statement above?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alive:

[b]I've always thought of it the other way around .. that West Africans with wide facial characteristics were the ones who've recently aquired their physical traits from a more physically diverse East African population, but given the migratory and climatic historical records, the said craniofacially-wide West Africans, perhaps like Asians around the Pacific/tropical zones, may represent a kind of preserved group in terms of physical traits in general.

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quote:

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Well, maybe the West African 'range of looks' in terms of hair doesn't represent a preserved state ...

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Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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This is how hair form evolved in various groups of homo-sapiens, IMO:

**********************************************

Hair is an arbitrary trait.

However, curlier hair helps radiate heat away from the body.

So I'm guessing that 'Kingly hair' (as I've heard it called) in West Africa is subject to positive selection (it's hot there).

In Saharan Africa more inland from the Mediterranean sea, for whatever reason this trait was not as selected for and they retained their hair variation.

As non-Africans migrated to Northern Eurasia and across the Bering Straight, this trait would obviously be less sucepptible for positive selection maybe even the reverse. (It's cold in Northern Eurasia, Canada, etc).

Plus, as anyone will notice, it seems to be them who have lost variability in hair form.

Europeans are mixed, with groups from both Africa and Northern Eurasia.

I have only seen one (and I think I'm the only one EVER) white woman who had Kinky hair.

It seemed way curlier than most of our hair.

I didn't ask her any questions about her ancestry.

So, keeping in mind that I hadn't had the wavier haired people in mind, this is where my comments on hair in my previous post came from.

Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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there is no evidence that wavy or even straight hair is non-African

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Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Evergreen:

Evergreen Writes:

The interesting thing is the Wadi Halfa sample is a part of the Kom Ombo Basin cultures, within whom the oldest E1b1 sub-clade E1b1b1a1 (V12) derived in Southern Egypt/Northern Sudan. Joel D. Irish also notes dental affinities between this group and modern West Africans.

Is it possible that the more elongated features of recent Horn of Africa populations derived during the mid-early holocene due to aridity from a broader morphological complex? Is it possible that groups such as Greeks and Natufians obtain phenotypic characteristics from these so-called "Negroid" groups that originally carried the E3b lineage along the Nile?

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Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Evergreen:

Evergreen Writes:

The interesting thing is the Wadi Halfa sample is a part of the Kom Ombo Basin cultures, within whom the oldest E1b1 sub-clade E1b1b1a1 (V12) derived in Southern Egypt/Northern Sudan. Joel D. Irish also notes dental affinities between this group and modern West Africans.

Is it possible that the more elongated features of recent Horn of Africa populations derived during the mid-early holocene due to aridity from a broader morphological complex? Is it possible that groups such as Greeks and Natufians obtain phenotypic characteristics from these so-called "Negroid" groups that originally carried the E3b lineage along the Nile?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Evergreen:
Evergreen Posts:

Population continuity versus discontinuity revisited: Dental affinities among Late Paleolithic through Christian era Nubians.

American Journal of Physical Anthropology.

128:520-535

Joel Irish

"Analyses of dental data in samples from these various regions will be the subject of future study. However, prior work may afford some indications. To illustrate, it was demonstrated that traits characterizing the Late Paleolithic sample are common in recent populations south of the Sahara (Irish and Turner, 1990; Irish, 1993, 1997, 1998a–d). A sub-Saharan affinity was also reported by workers using nondental data (de Heinzelin, 1957; Wendorf, 1968; Hiernaux, 1975; Franciscus, 1995, personal communication in 1995; Holliday, 1995; Groves and Thorne, 1999)."

"...analyses also suggest that Late Paleolithic Nubians are too divergent morphologically from later regional populations to connote an ancestor/descendent connection; the former are instead more reminiscent of recent peoples south of the Sahara."

Evergreen Writes:

Of course we now know that Irish's dental data do not correspond with the genetic record. These Late Paleolithic Nubians are genetically ancestral to later Nile Valley populations as evidenced by haplogroup E3b.

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Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ausarian:

quote:

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Phylogeography of the human Y chromosome haplogroup E3a
F. Cruciani1, B. Trombetta1, D. Sellitto2, C. Nodale1, R. Scozzari1;

1Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy, 2Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche, Rome, Italy.
Presentation Number: P07.134
The Y chromosome specific biallelic marker DYS271 defines the most common haplogroup (E3a) currently found in sub-Saharan Africa. A sister clade, E3b (E-M215), is rare in sub-Saharan Africa, but very common in northern and eastern Africa.

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This insanely ridiculous characterization of taking sub-Saharan east Africa out of the rest of sub-Saharan Africa by Cruciani, never seems to cease. E-M35* chromosomes are in fact more frequent sub-Saharan Africa than in north Africa, particularly in **sub-Saharan** East Africa, suggesting its origin in the region. Not exactly news flash here, but constant recitation of misleading information needs to be constantly corrected!

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Excellent point and this same topic comes up in the
recent "What is North” thread.. which led to this one
here. What is hilarious is that based on some standard
accepted maps of the Sahara, the so-called "NON
sub-Saharan" countries like Ethiopia and Somalia are
themselves below the Sahara. They miraculously
“move up” depending on the agenda at hand, like
claims that “sub-Saharan” Africa did not know the
wheel. Any claim to speak of "sub-Saharan Africa"
must include Ethiopia and Somalia to be credible and
consistent.

But then again, perhaps consistency is not really
sought. The entire notion of "sub-Saharan" is
flawed due to contradictory and manipulated
definitions, as noted so eloquently by S. Keita
below. The basic thrust is to minimize or deny
African genetic diversity by the creation and
manipulation of inconsistent/contradictory barriers,
classifications or definitions.


"The living peoples of the African continent
are diverse in facial characteristics, stature,
skin color, hair form, genetics, and other
characteristics. No one set of characteristics
is more African than another. Variability is
also found in "sub-Saharan" Africa, to which
the word "Africa" is sometimes erroneously
restricted. There is a problem with definitions.
Sometimes Africa is defined using cultural
factors, like language, that exclude
developments that clearly arose in Africa. For
example, sometimes even the Horn of Africa
(Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea) is excluded
because of geography and language and the
fact that some of its peoples have narrow
noses and faces.

However, the Horn is at the same latitude as
Nigeria, and its languages are African. The
latitude of 15 degree passes through
Timbuktu, surely in "sub-Saharan Africa," as
well as Khartoum in Sudan; both are north of
the Horn. Another false idea is that
supra-Saharan and Saharan Africa were
peopled after the emergence of "Europeans"
or Near Easterners by populations coming
from outside Africa. Hence, the ancient
Egyptians in some writings have been
de-Africanized. These ideas, which limit the
definition of Africa and Africans, are rooted
in racism and earlier, erroneous "scientific"
approaches." (S. Keita, "The Diversity of
Indigenous Africans," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore
Clenko, Editor (1996), pp. 104-105. )





As can be seen from the map above, Ethiopia is
itself 'Sub-Saharan' as is Somalia, but somehow
they too often get classified elsewhere. The use of
geographic manipulations is linked to the "true
negro" model, drawing as narrow and stereotypical a
picture of "Africans" as possible, thus enabling all not
meeting the extreme narrow stereotype to be
reclassified as Caucasoid or some other race.
The use of "Bantu" speakers as a model for
"true blacks" is typical of this manipulation.
Another associated tactic is biased sampling, drawing
samples from the far north of Egypt for example near
the Mediterranean and claiming them as
"representative" of all Egypt, and the use of slippery
labeling particularly the terms "Middle Eastern" or
"Mediterranean." Such sleight of hand occurs in
both cranial/skeletal studies and DNA studies.





Keita (1990, 1992, 1993) refers to excavation reports
where the workers digging up the old bones for
example could clearly identify them as Negroid using
the criteria of the time, but somehow they were later
on classified as "Mediterranean" or excluded
altogether from published summaries on an area because they were
not "really" "supposed" to be there according to the
reckoning of the Egyptologist at hand. Keita had to
go back and read the old excavation reports
(some over a century old) first-hand to see what
was really going on.

"Nutter (1958), using the Penrose statistic,
demonstrated that Nagada I and Badari crania, both
regarded as Negroid, were almost identical and that
these were most similar to the Negroid Nubian series
from Kerma studied by Collett (1933). [Collett, not
accepting variability, excluded "clear negro" crania
found in the Kerma series from her analysis, as did
Morant (1925), implying that they were foreign.].."
(S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From
Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical
Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990))

www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeoples/quotes.htm

The writers here at Egypt Search generally do an
excellent job in exposing this inconsistency and
hypocrisy.

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
Is Brace et al's use of the term 'sub-saharan Africa' here analogous to [the outdated] [and scientifically < useless according to Brace] use of the 'true-negro' concept/myth?

From Brace et al 1993:

quote:

---

Whatever
else one can or cannot say about the Egyptians, it is clear that their craniofacial
morphology has nothing whatsoever in common with sub-Saharan Africans.

Our data, then, provide no support for the claim that there was a “strong negroid
element” in Predynastic Egypt (Asante, 1990; Morant, 1937; Randall-Mac Iver and
Woolley, 1909; Strouhal, 1971).

---

Well, we all know about the problems behind ascribing certain morphological traits to certain 'races':

*

Forensic Misclassification of
Ancient Nubian Crania:
Implications for Assumptions
about Human Variation -April 2005, Current Anthropology:

"It is well known that human biological variation is principally clinal (i.e., structured as gradients) and not racial (i.e., structured as a small number of fairly discrete
groups). We have shown that for a temporally and geographically homogeneous East African population, the most widely used “racial”
program fails to identify the skeletal material accurately. The assignment of skeletal racial origin is based principally upon stereotypical features found most frequently in the most geographically distant populations. While this is useful in some contexts (for example, sorting
skeletal material of largely West African ancestry
from skeletal material of largely Western European ancestry), it fails to identify populations that originate elsewhere and misrepresents fundamental patterns of human biological diversity."

Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series)

"The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar association is presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region......all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions.............
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia."

Note: One of the human phenotypic traits that holds the greatest diversity is cranial morphology. Because of this fact, cranial features can at times be misleading if not taken into proper context. For example, for a long time features like long narrow faces and narrow noses have been associated with “caucasian” or “caucasoid” people even though such features are present in populations throughout the globe from Africa to the Americas. The same can be said about so-called “negroid” features such as broad faces and noses which are also not just confined to Africans but various peoples in Asia, the Pacific, the Americas ('African' Olmecs anyone?) etc.

Which is why we have keen observations like these:

Jean Hiernaux "The People of Africa" 1975
p.53, 54

"In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent of the world range: only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world range; 60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the head width to head length expressed as a percentage....."

J. Edwards, A. Leathers, et al.

"...based on Howell’s sampling Fordisc 2.0 authors state that "there are no races, only populations," yet it is clear that Howell was intent on providing known groups that would be distributed among the continental "racial" groups.
We tested the accuracy and effectiveness of Fordisc 2.0 using twelve cranial measurements from a homogeneous population from the X-Group period of Sudanese Nubia (350CE-550CE). When the Fordisc program classified the adult X-Group crania, only 51 (57.3%) of 89 individuals were classified within groups from Africa. Others were placed in such diverse groups as Polynesian (11.24%), European (7.86%), Japanese (4.49%), Native American (3.37%), Peruvian (3.36%), Australian (1.12), Tasmanian (1.12%), and Melanesian (1.12%). The implications of these findings suggest that classifying populations, whether by geography or by "race", is not morphologically or biologically accurate because of the wide variation even in homogeneous populations."

*

Back to Brace '93:

And it seems, that once alligned with other (linguistic, archaeological, and genetic) evidence, even some of the results of the aforementioned '93 Brace study are evidence of the caution one would need to take in observing craniofacial traits:

Nubia, for its part, is significantly different from six of the 12 groups with which
it is compared. It comes close to being excluded from the Late Dynastic sample
from Giza in Lower Egypt, and it comes within few percentage points of being
excluded from sub-Saharan Africa as well. Nubians cannot be excluded from modern
Europeans or from their northern neighbors at Predynastic Naqada, and
barely from modern Somalis. Perhaps somewhat more surprisingly, they also cannot
be excluded from South Asia-the Indian subcontinent. This simply reaffirms
what can be seen in Figures 2-4.

LOL .. the Brace made it clear he is not saying this .. is there corresponding evidence for an Indian, or European biological origin of ancient Kemetians?

"Genetic diversity was analyzed by studying craniometric variation within a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the evidence for migration over the period of the development of social hierarchy and the Egyptian state. Craniometric variation, based upon 16 measurements, was assessed through principal components analysis, discriminant function analysis, and Mahalanobis D2 matrix computation. Spatial and temporal relationships were assessed by Mantel and Partial Mantel tests. The results indicate overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process." - Zakrzewski (2007)

"The Badarian series clusters with the tropical African groups no matter which algorithm is employed (see Figures 3 and 4). The clustering with the Bushman can be understood as an artifact of grouping algorithms; it is well known that a series may group into a cluster that does not contain the series to which it is most similar (has the lowest distance value). An additional 20 dendrograms were generated using the minimum evolution algorithm provided by MEGA (not shown). In none of them did the Badarian sample affiliate with the European series. In additional analysis, the Bushman series was left out; the results were the same." - Keita (2005)

Firstly, they need a broader sample size from an area as far away as West Africa.

Especially if that is the only place from which the crania of the "sub-saharan" sample comes from.

And notice where it seems they happened to take note of it:

"Wadi Halfa differed at a high level of
significance in more of the comparisons than any other. There were only two
groups from which it could not be convincingly excluded the recent Nubians and
*the roster* of sub-Saharan Africans."

Though, since, Brace has attributed the West African physical morphology to being the result of a wet, moist tropical environment in contrast to a dry and arid desert environ. According to a forum member (C.B.) anyway.

---

YEah, well Brace's study is quite popular on the
web. Some even use it to lend support for a
"Nordic" Egypt since Brace has cold-adapted
Swiss, German and Danish samples clustering
closer to Upper Egyptians than Somalians or
Nubians, depending on which diagram you look at.
We all know the weaknesses in that study. This
recap is for the new readers and the archives.

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ausarian:

quote:

---

Phylogeography of the human Y chromosome haplogroup E3a
F. Cruciani1, B. Trombetta1, D. Sellitto2, C. Nodale1, R. Scozzari1;

1Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy, 2Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche, Rome, Italy.
Presentation Number: P07.134
The Y chromosome specific biallelic marker DYS271 defines the most common haplogroup (E3a) currently found in sub-Saharan Africa. A sister clade, E3b (E-M215), is rare in sub-Saharan Africa, but very common in northern and eastern Africa.

---

This insanely ridiculous characterization of taking sub-Saharan east Africa out of the rest of sub-Saharan Africa by Cruciani, never seems to cease. E-M35* chromosomes are in fact more frequent sub-Saharan Africa than in north Africa, particularly in **sub-Saharan** East Africa, suggesting its origin in the region. Not exactly news flash here, but constant recitation of misleading information needs to be constantly corrected!

---

Seems like some things never change. Like you say
its constant recitation of misleading info. This
is where ES comes in with constant reinforcement
of more accurate or objective info, like
the non-existence of mythical ancient "white"
Nubians.

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged |