posted
Originally posted by Mike111: Whites rarely publish Y-DNA studies, because Y-DNA is a straight line, easily understood by just about anybody. Since they know that there are Blackcentrics like Myself, Clyde, and Marc, waiting to pounce; they are therefore reluctant to provide too much data. So instead of Y-DNA they provide mt-DNA results which are pretty much a muddle, and hard to follow.
And of course this desire to “Hide” information is why studies on the controversial people like the original Black creators of European civilizations like the Black Etruscans, and the original Black Greeks, is done, but not published. BTW – Did you know that the plans to do a DNA study of King Tut has been cancelled AGAIN!! Seems that every time that they try to do it, there is an outcry from the so-called Egyptian people. Those Turks masquerading as Egyptians aren’t as dumb as they look, one DNA study would prove them the liars that they are.
Having said that; it should come as no surprise that a study was done on the Black Etruscans in 2000, but it is just now making it to the Internet. The results of the study are no surprise to us Blackcentrics; or as we are known on the board, “wayout whacko’s”, but some of the less informed might be a bit surprised.
The study is called: The Etruscans: A Population-Genetic Study
Excerpts from the study;
The Etruscans show closer relationships both to North Africans and to Turks than any contemporary population.
BUT: The Etruscans fall out of an unstructured cluster comprising most European and Caucasus populations, including the Turks.
The last sentence might seem contradictory if you don’t know that they are talking about “MODERN TURKS” Who are White Turks from Central Asia, mixed with the ORIGINAL Black people of Anatolia. BTW – the relationship with Turks is small.
To put it all together by Haplogroup:
Etruscans of Italy is Haplogroup (JT) The Celtic Cheddar man of England is (U5) Otzi – the Iceman of Italy (the Alps) is (K) Grimaldi man of France is (U5)
As you can see below: they are all part of Haplogroup R.
Haplogroup R 55000 years before present Place of origin Near East
(Clarification: As we all know, Whites often use certain “Terms” to confuse the “Less informed”. The “Near East” and “West Asia” is the SAME thing. For our purposes, it is from Iran (ancient Elam/Persia) to the Eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea – Including Turkey (ancient Anatolia).
Haplogroup R is a descendant of macro-Haplogroup N. Among its descendant haplogroups are B, UK (and thus U and K), F, pre-HV (and thus HV, H, and V), and the ancestral haplogroup of J and T.
Alternatively, should other ancient populations prove similar to comparable modern ones, one should conclude that the Etruscans’ mitochondrial sequences underwent extinction at a particularly high rate and look for an explanation for that. Until more ancient DNA data become available, both scenarios will remain possible, although we favor the latter.
and more BS. They are saying the Estrucans elite were "different" from the rest of the popualtion. Guess they see very little similarites between them(modern Europeans) and Estrucans elite. So now the elites are "foreigners" More BS. Good find Mike
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We do not know whether that group differed genetically from the rest of the population, which might be the case when a foreign elite imposes its rule, and often its language, over a region (Renfrew 1989). If the upper class had indeed somewhat distinct DNAs, our results could mean that this elite class became largely extinct, while the rest of the population, whose DNA we do not know, may well have contributed to the modern gene pool of Tuscany. This would be the likely effect of a process of assimilation, from which the social elites were excluded, more or less deliberately.Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Data does not matter to Mike. he does not read history at all and thus has no clue what actually happened to any group of people.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
@TAP aren't you tired of talking nonsense - - Have nothing of significance to say? Then shut the F up!!!
from TAP- Data does not matter to Mike. he does not read history at all and thus has no clue what actually happened to any group of people.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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xyy, if you do not read history then you do not have the knowledge to put the study into its proper context. the problem here is that almost nobody really cares about history. What they care mabout is finding information to plug into what they see as a black political agenda. Why is mike looking for black people in the first place? A scholar would not do that because it has nothing to do with history. Now, if he happened to find something like that along the way it might be an interesting piece of secondary info.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Our goal here (this forum) is to learn and expose the truth. We have been lied to for too long by people who DO have an agenda. About 200yrs of lies from Hollywood and NG etc with their Nordic (caucasian) AE. Blond blue Greeks and Romans.
We know now these were all lies.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
The truth is not your goal. You have already decided on a final result. You goal is to gather whatever you can find to support that view. That is why every piece of art that does not fit you model is declared fake. That is why you see a conspiracy under every rock. That is why people here seldom talk about history, only black topics. xyy, you are not one ounce different than stormfront. It is exactly the same thing.
By the way, many ancient Greeks and romans were indeed blonde.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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And, here is a New York Times article discussing it:
NEW YORK TIMES: DNA Boosts Herodotus' Account of Etruscans as Migrants to Italy By NICHOLAS WADE, April 3, 2007
Geneticists have added an edge to a 2,500-year-old debate over the origin of the Etruscans, a people whose brilliant and mysterious civilization dominated northwestern Italy for centuries until the rise of the Roman republic in 510 B.C. Several new findings support a view held by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus - but unpopular among archaeologists - that the Etruscans originally migrated to Italy from the Near East.
Though Roman historians played down their debt to the Etruscans, Etruscan culture permeated Roman art, architecture and religion. The Etruscans were master metallurgists and skillful seafarers who for a time dominated much of the Mediterranean. They enjoyed unusually free social relations, much remarked on by ancient historians of other cultures.
"Sharing wives is an established Etruscan custom," wrote the Greek historian Theopompos of Chios in the fourth century B.C. "Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. Further, they dine not with their own husbands, but with any men who happen to be present."
He added that Etruscan women "are also expert drinkers and are very good looking."
Etruscan culture was very advanced and very different from other Italian cultures of the time. But most archaeologists have seen a thorough continuity between a local Italian culture known as the Villanovan that emerged around 900 B.C. and the Etruscan culture, which began in 800 B.C.
"The overwhelming proportion of archaeologists would regard the evidence for eastern origins of the Etruscans as negligible," said Anthony Tuck, an archaeologist at the University of Massachusetts Center for Etruscan Studies.
Because Italians take pride in the Roman empire and the Etruscan state that preceded it, asserting a foreign origin for the Etruscans has long been politically controversial in Italy. Massimo Pallottino, the dean of modern Etruscan studies in Italy who died in 1995, held that because no one questioned that the French, say, developed in France, the same assumption should be made about the Etruscans. "Someone who had a different position didn't get a job in archaeology," said Antonio Torroni, a geneticist at the University of Pavia.
Even so, a nagging question has remained. Could the Etruscans have arrived from somewhere else in the Mediterranean world, bringing their sophisticated culture with them?
One hint of such an origin is that the Etruscan language, which survives in thousands of inscriptions, appears not to be Indo-European, the language family that started to sweep across Europe sometime after 8,500 years ago, developing into Latin, English and many other tongues. Another hint is the occurrence of inscriptions in a language apparently related to Etruscan on Lemnos, a Greek island just off the coast of Turkey. But whether Lemnian is the parent language of Etruscan, or the other way around, is not yet clear, said Rex Wallace, an expert on Etruscan linguistics at the University of Massachusetts.
An even more specific link to the Near East is a short statement by Herodotus that the Etruscans emigrated from Lydia, a region on the eastern coast of ancient Turkey. After an 18-year famine in Lydia, Herodotus reports, the king dispatched half the population to look for a better life elsewhere. Under the leadership of his son Tyrrhenus, the emigrating Lydians built ships, loaded all the stores they needed, and sailed from Smyrna (now the Turkish port of Izmir) until reaching Umbria in Italy.
Despite the specificity of Herodotus' account, archaeologists have long been skeptical of it. There are also fanciful elements in Herodotus' story, like the Lydians' being the inventors of games like dice because they needed distractions to take their minds off the famine. And Lydian, unlike Etruscan, is definitely an Indo-European language. Other ancient historians entered the debate. Thucydides favored a Near Eastern provenance, but Dionysius of Halicarnassus declared the Etruscans native to Italy.
What has brought Italian geneticists into the discussion are new abilities to sequence DNA and trace people's origins. In 2004, a team led by Guido Barbujani at the University of Ferrara extracted mitochondrial DNA from 30 individuals buried in Etruscan sites throughout Italy. Their goal was to see whether Etruscans' DNA was more like that of modern Italians or of people from the Near East.
But this study quickly came under attack. Working with ancient DNA is extremely difficult, because most bones from archaeological sites have been carelessly handled. Extensively contamination with modern human DNA can swamp the signal of what little ancient DNA may still survive.Hans-J�rgen Bandelt, a geneticist at the University of Hamburg in Germany, wrote that the DNA recovered from the Etruscan bones showed clear signs of such problems.
With the geneticists in disarray, archaeologists had been able to dismiss their results. But a new set of genetic studies being reported seems likely to lend greater credence to Herodotus' long-disputed account.
Three new and independent sources of genetic data all point to the conclusion that Etruscan culture was imported to Italy from somewhere in the Near East.
One study is based on the mitochondrial DNA of residents of Murlo, a small former Etruscan town in an out-of-the-way place whose population may not have changed all that much since Etruscan times.
Mitchondrial DNA holds clues to geographical origins, because local mutations produced traceable lineages as people spread from the ancestral homeland of modern humans in northeastern Africa. Some lineages are found only in Africa, some in Europe and others in Asia.
The Murlo residents' lineages are quite different from those of people in other Italian towns. When placed on a chart of mitochondrial lineages from Europe and the Near East, the people of Murlo map closest to Palestinians and Syrians, a team led by Dr. Torroni and Alessandro Achilli reports in the April issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics.
In Tuscany as a whole, part of the ancient Etruscan region of Etruria, the Torroni team found 11 minor mitochondrial DNA lineages that occur nowhere else in Europe and are shared only with Near Eastern people. These findings, the teams says, "support a direct and rather recent genetic input from the Near East, a scenario in agreement with the Lydian origin of the Etruscans."
Dr. Torroni said he had data awaiting publication that are based on Y chromosomes and point to the same conclusion.
A third source of genetic data on Etruscan origins has been developed by Marco Pellecchia and Paolo Ajmone-Marsan at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart in Piacenza. Tuscany has four ancient unusual breeds of cattle, including the giant Chianina. Analyzing the mitochondrial DNA of these and seven other breeds of Italian cattle, Dr. Ajmone-Marsan found that the Tuscan breeds genetically resembled cattle of the Near East, whereas the other Italian breeds grouped with cattle of northern Europe.
One explanation could be that people in Etruria had imported cattle from the Near East at some time. But given Dr. Torroni's finding that the people, too, have a Near Eastern signature in their genes, the best explanation is that "both humans and cattle reached Etruria from the Eastern Mediterranean by sea," Dr. Ajmone-Marsan and his colleagues said in a report published online in February in The Proceedings of the Royal Society. This explanation fits with Herodotus' remark that the Etruscans brought with them everything they needed.
The data from the cattle DNA has also let the researchers calculate that the time at which the Tuscan and the Near Eastern cattle were part of the same population was 6,400 to 1,600 years ago, implying that the Etruscans set sail in this period.
The new findings may prompt specialists to look for an arrival date compatible with the archaeological and linguistic data, which essentially means before the proto-Villanovan culture of 1100 to 900 B.C.
"I'm willing to believe that people speaking a prehistoric form of Etruscan came from the Near East - who knows where? - and settled in Italy at some point in the early Bronze Age," said Dr. Wallace.
The Bronze Age in Europe began around 1800 B.C. Dr. Tuck, the archaeologist, said he supposed that "three clear genetic threads linking a Tuscan population, human or bovine, to groups in the Near East is pretty compelling evidence."
If the proto-Villanovan culture signifies the Etruscans' arrival, it is surprising that no similar culture is known from ancient Turkey, he said.
Maria Bonghi Jovino, an Etruscan expert at the University of Milan, said the cultural discontinuity seen at the beginning of the proto-Villanovan culture probably represented the arrival of small groups of traders or prospectors, not a mass immigration.
As for Herodotus, Ms. Jovino said she believed, liked most modern historians, "that he does not always report real historical facts." often referring to oral tradition.
But at least on the matter of Etruscan origins, it seems that Herodotus may yet enjoy the last laugh.
posted
Tell me there isn't an agenda. From the mouth of their own. Not a black activist saying this.
From the NY Times piece
"Someone who had a different position didn't get a job in archaeology," said Antonio Torroni, a geneticist at the University of Pavia.
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: The truth is not your goal. You have already decided on a final result. You goal is to gather whatever you can find to support that view. That is why every piece of art that does not fit you model is declared fake. That is why you see a conspiracy under every rock. That is why people here seldom talk about history, only black topics. xyy, you are not one ounce different than stormfront. It is exactly the same thing.
By the way, many ancient Greeks and romans were indeed blonde.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
xyyman - What is this quote in reference to?
"Someone who had a different position didn't get a job in archaeology," said Antonio Torroni, a geneticist at the University of Pavia."
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Any archaeologist who said the Etsruscans were anything but white were not given a job. So TAP, isn't that an agenda? They employed those that perpetuated the lies. They don't care about honest "scholarly" work.
The full paragraph:
"Because Italians take pride in the Roman empire and the Etruscan state that preceded it, asserting a foreign origin for the Etruscans has long been politically controversial in Italy. Massimo Pallottino, the dean of modern Etruscan studies in Italy who died in 1995, held that because no one questioned that the French, say, developed in France, the same assumption should be made about the Etruscans. "Someone who had a different position didn't get a job in archaeology," said Antonio Torroni, a geneticist at the University of Pavia."Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Pay no attention to TAP, his job is to be "Tactful".
You know what "Tact" is don't you? That is how to fuch you without you knowing that you are being fuched.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Hey Marc, have you noticed that now that White people have said that it is okay to believe it - they believe it. Talk about "Well Trained" Negroes.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Your dillusions coupled with the failed attempt to prove something are sad. First off, group R or not, I see no R mentioned there anywhere in what you have explained...and it is not whites that muddle things to try to confuse you...sorry but most of your kind fries their brains with drug use, so there is no need hiding anything...especially from the illiterate druggies that the vast majority is. (Not necessarily directed at you so dont get all defensive like your kind gets whenever an incovinient truth about your race comes up)
Also, get your head out of your a**. Your people did not run amock in Greece, Italy or Persia. Nor were they in "Anatolia" which was actually ruled by
They were annihilated by a certain group of Italians called the Romans (more specifically the armies of King Romolus I do believe). Their existance was so marginal, that they are simply passed over in history and simply metioned as a tribe in existence in Italy, as were the Italics who were conquered by the Romans as well...
111111111111111 So take your afro-centrism and your afro as well if you have one, and cram them both up your a** please...I dont go around looking on the internet for every minor "study" that points in the direction that I want it to go. There are studies every day, both pro and against every single thesis out there, from meat causes cancer to meat cures cancer. Any study can be biased and tilted toward the idea that the individual wants to achieve. It just so happens that it is the age of negrodization of society and the age of negroid a** kissing in the world. Doesnt mean that one born of some of the most ancient of noble lines is going to do the same as the liberal idiots who try to make your egos inflate. In my eyes, your kind has only two places in history....in the jungles (out of the Aryan lands) or kissing our boots as you are not worth the time of day to me and mine. Trying to explain anything to you is like talking to a wall, I can talk and talk and nothing gets through...you may be educated, but you are quite ignorant.
posted
Aww come on, you know everybody was black back then, except for 2 white people that lived on an island. Then black people came and saved their soul, but the white devil took over everything and declared it his.
Posts: 6335 | From: Straight to my heart. | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
More like several thousand that lived in the scandinavian regions of Europe. They eventual multiplied and conquered the world.
Are you part of that group,HG-I. Or the admixed R-derivees or E3b? Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Hey ARABEGPYT . . .are you screwed up. . .mentally? What is an Aryan Arab? Seems to be a contradiction here.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the Hoffmeister Aww come on, you know everybody was black back then, except for 2 white people that lived on an island. Then black people came and saved their soul, but the white devil took over everything and declared it his.
i thought you were gonna say black thugz went over there and rescued and ravaged the two white hos to their souls, that they would never go back.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
i can now only laugh about what a dump this place has become.
Though i will admit the most heated threads even before the troll invasion to have formerly been related to population affinity (aka creed, lineage, ethnicity, RACE) but it's not like many have tried to do anything to change it, i've tried (and Myra and Tigerlily) a dozen times, but no one is ever interested, even when the people from the other forums come and try to garner interest it's nothin doin.
Which is why i thought we just needed more posters but we have our hands full with fanatic and fakeblack posters like Marc Washington, Egmond Codfried, gaykoben, argayle104 and the few others who make it futile to ignore their threads (i would not blame the newcomers for adding to the trolling of the site like Vader above with fools starting threads like "germans were black" knowing full well no one black cares about no gotdamn Germanics or Stonehenge, or who can for get african buddhist).
Besides, population affinity is the most politically (ethnically) charged and most rapidly moving "sphere" (in terms of genetic studies, modern politics, finds in ancient cultures and in under studied areas like Africa elsewhere than modern Egypt), so those topics are going to get the most play for the longest amount of time, whether it's serious scientific posting or the scientifically illiterate political dribel the forum gets now most of the time.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
What the **** is a fake anyway ? Am I faking to be a person or something ? Your retardation is extreme dear sire.
Posts: 6335 | From: Straight to my heart. | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
As usual Mike, your writings appear to be jumbled and incoherent ramblings. What exactly are you saying about this study??
Also, here is what the actual abstract says:
The origins of the Etruscans, a non-Indo-European population of preclassical Italy, are unclear. There is broad agreement that their culture developed locally, but the Etruscans’ evolutionary and migrational relationships are largely unknown. In this study, we determined mitochondrial DNA sequences in multiple clones derived from bone samples of 80 Etruscans who lived between the 7th and the 3rd centuries b.c. In the first phase of the study, we eliminated all specimens for which any of nine tests for validation of ancient DNA data raised the suspicion that either degradation or contamination by modern DNA might have occurred. On the basis of data from the remaining 30 individuals, the Etruscans appeared as genetically variable as modern populations. No significant heterogeneity emerged among archaeological sites or time periods, suggesting that different Etruscan communities shared not only a culture but also a mitochondrial gene pool. Genetic distances and sequence comparisons show closer evolutionary relationships with the eastern Mediterranean shores for the Etruscans than for modern Italian populations. All mitochondrial lineages observed among the Etruscans appear typically European or West Asian, but only a few haplotypes were found to have an exact match in a modern mitochondrial database, raising new questions about the Etruscans’ fate after their assimilation into the Roman state.
Where does it say they were African??! Although I don't doubt they possessed African ancestry as it says they share a close genetic continuity with the eastern mediterranean which includes Anatolia (modern Turkey) and the Levant-- populations from both regions show African ancestry as well.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Don't you love it when trolls call people that don't join them trolls ?
Posts: 6335 | From: Straight to my heart. | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
Djehuti - You are not just ignorant, you are ignorant and stupid. You have been on this forum for over four years, and you still cannot even read a friggin study??? You are a disgrace!
(note for the uninformed: When the Turks from Asia migrated to Anatolia (200-600 A.D.), they admixed with the indigenous Blacks that they found there. Populations from this extremely old Anatolian gene pool, had thousands of years earlier migrated to Crete, Italy, and other Mediterranean locations). That is why modern Turks will show genetic traces of these pre-historic people.
Quotes from the study.
We chose the Basques as representative of western Europe, the Turks as representative of the eastern Mediterranean region, Karelians and Volga Finns as representative of northeastern Europe, and Egyptians and Algerians as representative of North Africa.
The Etruscans fall out of an unstructured cluster comprising most European and Caucasus populations, including the Turks.
To better compare the Etruscan gene pool with those of contemporary Italy, we treated these populations as hybrids among four potential parental populations, from the four corners of the area considered in this study. The likely contributions of each parental population, or admixture coefficients, are similar for the three modern Italian populations, but Etruscans differ in two aspects: they show closer relationships both to North Africans and to Turks than any contemporary population.
In particular, the Turkish component in their gene pool appears three times as large as in the other populations. These admixture estimates are not to be taken at their face value, for numerous assumptions underlie their estimation. Here they only serve to show that, with respect to modern Italian gene pools, the Etruscan one contains an excess of haplotypes suggesting evolutionary ties with the populations of the southern and eastern Mediterranean shores.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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some of the new people i talked about don't = trolls
all of the new people i talked about = weak
me complaining about any of this on a modless forum when i could just leave = stupid
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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As usual Mike, your writings appear to be jumbled and incoherent ramblings. What exactly are you saying about this study??
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