I was debating the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians on an ancient history website, and one guy said that the Y-chromosome haplogroup E3b1 originated in Southwest Asia. What does the science say on this issue.
Posted by Afronut Slayer (Member # 16637) on :
According to this study, Datog, who are Nilotic speaking people have 43% E3b1-M293:
One study said this about Darfur males: "Haplogroup E-M78, however, is more widely distributed and is thought to have an origin in eastern African. More recently, this haplogroup has been carefully dissected and was found to depict several well-established subclades with defined geographical clustering (Cruciani et al., 2006, 2007). Although this haplogroup is common to most Sudanese populations, it has exceptionally high frequency among populations like those of western Sudan (particularly Darfur) and the Beja in eastern Sudan."
And the Masalit
"The Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup, suggesting either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup. Both E-V13, which is believed to originate in western Asia with its low frequency in North Africa, and E-V65 of North African origin (Cruciani et al., 2007), were not found among Sudanese."
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe.
Battaglia et al.
Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Università di Pavia, Pavia, Italy.
The debate concerning the mechanisms underlying the prehistoric spread of farming to Southeast Europe is framed around the opposing roles of population movement and cultural diffusion. To investigate the possible involvement of local people during the transition of agriculture in the Balkans, we analysed patterns of Y-chromosome diversity in 1206 subjects from 17 population samples, mainly from Southeast Europe. Evidence from three Y-chromosome lineages, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, make it possible to distinguish between Holocene Mesolithic forager and subsequent Neolithic range expansions from the eastern Sahara and the Near East, respectively. In particular, whereas the Balkan microsatellite variation associated to J-M241 correlates with the Neolithic period, those related to E-V13 and I-M423 Balkan Y chromosomes are consistent with a late Mesolithic time frame. In addition, the low frequency and variance associated to I-M423 and E-V13 in Anatolia and the Middle East, support an European Mesolithic origin of these two clades. Thus, these Balkan Mesolithic foragers with their own autochthonous genetic signatures, were destined to become the earliest to adopt farming, when it was subsequently introduced by a cadre of migrating farmers from the Near East. These initial local converted farmers became the principal agents spreading this economy using maritime leapfrog colonization strategies in the Adriatic and transmitting the Neolithic cultural package to other adjacent Mesolithic populations. The ensuing range expansions of E-V13 and I-M423 parallel in space and time the diffusion of Neolithic Impressed Ware, thereby supporting a case of cultural diffusion using genetic evidence. European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 24 December 2008
“The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians) , previously described virtually only in northeast Africa, upper Nile, gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been. Correlations between human-occupation sites and radiocarbon-dated climatic fluctuations in the eastern Sahara and Nile Valley during the Holocene provide a framework for interpreting the main southeast European centric distribution of E-V13. A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards. Hg E-M78* representatives, although rare overall, still occur in Egypt, which is a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated their regionally distinctive branches.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
Old Name - E3b1 New Name - E1b1b1 Actual Mutation Name - E-M35
ALL Scientific papers show that E-M35 originated somewhere in the Horn of Africa, Probably Ethiopia.
NO scientific papers say Near east or Middle East and i dont think ANY of them EVER HAVE. THE ONLY time ANY paper mentions of ANY mutations of haplogroup E originated out of Africa (Besides V13 and E-M123) would be at the time when the Authors thought that Haplogroup E was a mutation OF haplogroup D......And that was a VERY long time ago.
Particularly Ethiopians but Other African populations have: -Highest Numbers of paragroup E-M35* or E3b* and Generally THE Highest Frequencies of EVERY mutation FROM Paragroup E* LEADING UP TO Haplogroup E-M35: E3b1*, E3b*, and the actual P2 marker itself E3* that JOINS E3a and E3b. Africans even have Mutations DE*
That guy is just playing games on what he WISHED the results are because the facts state otherwise. The map below was produced on ALL available genetic studies of E-M35 the only thing it is missing is M-81 in West Saharan Africa and E-M35 paragroup found all across West Africa.
Asian origin of E-M35 = ZERO Evidence/Wishful thinking. Ask hime what evidence does he have for a Near East origin.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by astenb: That guy is just playing games on what he WISHED the results are because the facts state otherwise.
Actually, he changed his mind and now accepts an African origin for E3b1.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Afronut Slayer: an excellent science journal on e3
This article is bullsh*t but even IT places the origin of E-M35 in Ethiopia. The problem is SOME PEOPLE choose to believe that Africans cease to exist as Africans when they step over some imaginary border.
Ellen Levy-Coffman: Boo hoo, [cry] mommy help me, its 'unfair' to call an African mutation "African" because the genes traveled an mutated outside of Africa 'a long time ago.'
And then they want to flip the script and note that "Non Africa" markers that have been in Africa twice, 3 or 4 TIMES as long are ALWAYS called "Eurasian"
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by astenb: That guy is just playing games on what he WISHED the results are because the facts state otherwise.
Actually, he changed his mind and now accepts an African origin for E3b1.
He will change his mind or figure out a way to dilute your genetic argument. Anyone that already has the idea that E3b was from "Asia" regardless of the evidence will.....That is the ONLY what he can continue his argument.
Working Hypothosis:
-Based on unpublished research E-M78(V32) is OLDER in Ethiopia than it is in Sudan, Somalia AND EGYPT. Meaning it is possible that it TRAVELED NORTH.
-E-M78(V32) comes FROM E-M78(V12) Cruciani states that V12 and V22 were "Intermingled" i am not sure exactly what that means but they were BOTH part of the "Delta Cluster."
E-M78(V22) has a higher Frequency IN Ethiopia vs Egypt. And is also seen as far south as Tanzania i believe. It could have ALSO TRAVELED NORTH.
-While E-M78* was rare it was found In Egypt, particularly in GURNA, NOWHERE ELSE. Someone compiled ALL of the E-M78 in Egypt in a Pie Chart.
-That photo ALSO shows Egyptian Berbers with Significant E-V32 (that in this scenario traveled North From the horn of Africa) And we know that While Ethiopians were known to have the highest frequency of E-V6 (E-M35 ---> E-V6) 10-15/17% in Amahara and Wolayta (Omotic Speakers of Ethiopia) THIS STUDY on BERBERS OF SIWA Says : "Siwa Berbers..... sub-Saharan haplogroups (e.g. B-M109 and E-V6 ) have been observed at high frequencies: about 60% on the whole (these haplogroups are very rare north of the Sahara)" Again that is MORE evidence of Migration to the North FROM the south of Y-Chromosomes OTHER than E-M35. Gurna AND Siwan Berber populations studied have and identical 17% M1 Mtdna. Siwans ALSO have 13% L3e(Horn of Africa).
In all this i think that the Chart is assuming that V22 dispersed from the Horn of Africa, I think it is a possibility. I do believe with MORE research on the horn of Africa particularly Sudan and Egypt we will see there were NUMEROUS migrations North and South Via the nile corridor. I will put these ideas in a different thread.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by astenb: And then they want to flip the script and note that "Non Africa" markers that have been in Africa twice, 3 or 4 TIMES as long are ALWAYS called "Eurasian"
Good point.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Afronut Slayer: an excellent science journal on e3
Let me help you out. That is a secondary source and does not test its assertion. In other words, it's just a mere opinion.
Ellen Levy-Coffman Why the hell does one with a JD matter? She is not a geneticist and introduces a poor straw man. Most scholars do not deny African origin of these haplogroups since concentration within Africa is the highest.
Having said that, E1b, underived, its derivative, E1b1b, originate from "sub-Saharan" Africa. The derivative common amongst Europeans (e1b1ba) also originates within Africa, but somewhere around Egypt.
More importantly, the underived form shares a common P2 lineage with E1b1a and it's rather dishonest separating the two. The renaming of the haplogroup had something to do with that, because R isn't scrutinized in such a manner.
Despite the fact that E1b1a differentiated much later and "West Africans" left the Sahel well after the OOA populations. The truth is, prior to the Neolithic, Europe wasn't accessible and R groups became highly differentiated.
That's why South Asians are the largest groups featuring this haplotype. I doubt anyone is going to consider Indians white. On the other hand, most E3 carrying populations within Africa are tropically adapted African even today. The coastal Africans within the modern Maghreb coast are largely (assumption) cold adapted, but do not represent a majority of the Sahara. In fact, these groups largely live in Alpine regions outside of the Sahara.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
^ Yep. Summed up in another thread but relevant here:
CF* East African DE* - AFRICAN E - Mutated in Africa E1 - Mutated in Africa E1b - Mutated in Africa E1b1 - Mutated in Africa E1b1b - Mutated in Africa E1b1b1 - Mutated in Africa E1b1b1a - Mutated in Africa
E1b1b1a or E-M78 AFRICANS went to Asia and had a minor mutation called "E1b1b1a2" Ellen Levy-Coffman would then be speaking of THAT mutation "E1b1b1a2" and NOT all of the others ones leading up to it.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I was debating the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians on an ancient history website, and one guy said that the Y-chromosome haplogroup E3b1 originated in Southwest Asia. What does the science say on this issue.
Hope you have your answer - it is very straightforward - Haplogroup E is East African - Aethiopids. The vast majority of Sub-Saharan Africans are part of this Haplogroup. The vast majority of Afro-Asiatic speaking Aethiopids - Saharan Africans - are also part of this Haplogroup. It is what unites us together as a single people - the sons of Ham.
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by astenb:
quote:Originally posted by Afronut Slayer: an excellent science journal on e3
This article is bullsh*t but even IT places the origin of E-M35 in Ethiopia. The problem is SOME PEOPLE choose to believe that Africans cease to exist as Africans when they step over some imaginary border.
Ellen Levy-Coffman: Boo hoo, [cry] mommy help me, its 'unfair' to call an African mutation "African" because the genes traveled an mutated outside of Africa 'a long time ago.'
And then they want to flip the script and note that "Non Africa" markers that have been in Africa twice, 3 or 4 TIMES as long are ALWAYS called "Eurasian"
lol.. cry me a river for Coffman-Levy..
"Concerning E1b1b, Coffman-Levy (2005) wrote that although E1b1b "arose in East Africa, approximately 25000 years ago, certain sub-clades appear to have been present in Europe and Asia for thousands of years" and so it is "often incorrectly described as 'African'" in a sense that creates a "misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup", which has pervaded the public and media."
Sounds like a hypocritical double standard. Coffman-Levy doesn't have any problem seeing "J" as European, because J is mostly in Europe. No problem seeing 'R" as Southwest Asian, because the greatest frequency of "R" is found there. 'E" is mostly in Africa, but strangely he doesn't apply the same standard he applies in Europe or Southwest Asia. Haplogroup E1b1b not only ORIGINATED in Africa, but has been there much longer that it has outside of Africa. So how come this becomes a "problem" calling it 'African"? Can anyone say hypocritical double standard? The fact that derivatives of "E" are found elsewhere outside Africa is testimony to the Out of Africa gene flow. The bulk of the original is still in Africa. Why the double standard?
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by astenb:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by astenb: That guy is just playing games on what he WISHED the results are because the facts state otherwise.
Actually, he changed his mind and now accepts an African origin for E3b1.
He will change his mind or figure out a way to dilute your genetic argument. Anyone that already has the idea that E3b was from "Asia" regardless of the evidence will.....That is the ONLY what he can continue his argument.
Working Hypothosis:
-Based on unpublished research E-M78(V32) is OLDER in Ethiopia than it is in Sudan, Somalia AND EGYPT. Meaning it is possible that it TRAVELED NORTH.
-E-M78(V32) comes FROM E-M78(V12) Cruciani states that V12 and V22 were "Intermingled" i am not sure exactly what that means but they were BOTH part of the "Delta Cluster."
E-M78(V22) has a higher Frequency IN Ethiopia vs Egypt. And is also seen as far south as Tanzania i believe. It could have ALSO TRAVELED NORTH.
-While E-M78* was rare it was found In Egypt, particularly in GURNA, NOWHERE ELSE. Someone compiled ALL of the E-M78 in Egypt in a Pie Chart.
-That photo ALSO shows Egyptian Berbers with Significant E-V32 (that in this scenario traveled North From the horn of Africa) And we know that While Ethiopians were known to have the highest frequency of E-V6 (E-M35 ---> E-V6) 10-15/17% in Amahara and Wolayta (Omotic Speakers of Ethiopia) THIS STUDY on BERBERS OF SIWA Says : "Siwa Berbers..... sub-Saharan haplogroups (e.g. B-M109 and E-V6 ) have been observed at high frequencies: about 60% on the whole (these haplogroups are very rare north of the Sahara)" Again that is MORE evidence of Migration to the North FROM the south of Y-Chromosomes OTHER than E-M35. Gurna AND Siwan Berber populations studied have and identical 17% M1 Mtdna. Siwans ALSO have 13% L3e(Horn of Africa).
In all this i think that the Chart is assuming that V22 dispersed from the Horn of Africa, I think it is a possibility. I do believe with MORE research on the horn of Africa particularly Sudan and Egypt we will see there were NUMEROUS migrations North and South Via the nile corridor. I will put these ideas in a different thread.
Great data. Like that posted by ES vets so long ago on the Tutsi:
