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Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 
Peace and greetings.

Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?

I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.

Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
The name Moor was never used in the 8-10th century for white Muslims so that is not going to be possible.

It simply meant the black man whether Christian Muslim or Jew.

I saw a very early depiction of "Moors" on a television documentary about the island of Corfou a Greek Island, but they were portayed dark brown.

I'm not an Afrocentrist, nor a brother but the Moors being mostly descendants of ancient Arabian or "Semitic" bedouin did not portray themselves in image. It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted.

Most of the early representations are by Europeans.
 

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Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 
I would not necessarily call these moors "white" but they were definitly non black (Arab and Berber). Here is an example of one:



Tariq ibn Ziyad conquered Hispania in 711 CE

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
The name Moor was never used in the 8-10th century for white Muslims so that is not going to be possible.

It simply meant the black man whether Christian Muslim or Jew.

I saw a very early depiction of "Moors" on a television documentary about the island of Corfou a Greek Island, but they were portayed dark brown.

I'm not an Afrocentrist, nor a brother but the Moors being mostly descendants of ancient Arabian or "Semitic" bedouin did not portray themselves in image. It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted.

Most of the early representations are by Europeans.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
I posted a picture of a non black moor dating back to 8th CE. I am asking my Afrocentrist brothers to post up some Black moors from that period. Can you please post some up?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
I just posted a picture of a non-black moore - "Tariq". He was a top general that conquered Hispania.

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
The name Moor was never used in the 8-10th century for white Muslims so that is not going to be possible.

It simply meant the black man whether Christian Muslim or Jew.

I saw a very early depiction of "Moors" on a television documentary about the island of Corfou a Greek Island, but they were portayed dark brown.

I'm not an Afrocentrist, nor a brother but the Moors being mostly descendants of ancient Arabian or "Semitic" bedouin did not portray themselves in image. It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted.

Most of the early representations are by Europeans.

---

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
I would not necessarily call these moors "white" but they were definitly non black (Arab and Berber). Here is an example of one:



Tariq ibn Ziyad conquered Hispania in 711 CE

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
I would not necessarily call these moors "white" but they were definitly non black (Arab and Berber). Here is an example of one:



Tariq ibn Ziyad conquered Hispania in 711 CE

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
Peace and greetings.

Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?

I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.

Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?

---

See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?

How Hard is this to understand?

Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.

Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...

How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.




^^^
On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs.
 

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Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
Lol I noticed that as well (the self made wikipedia drawing ), Mohammed come on, you disappoint.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
I would not necessarily call these moors "white" but they were definitly non black (Arab and Berber). Here is an example of one:



Tariq ibn Ziyad conquered Hispania in 711 CE

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?

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That is an example of why Wikipedia is not a place to take authoritative works. All of the Moorish rulers on Wikipedia are shown as looking like Goths and Romans. This picture of Tariq according to the Wikipedia author was "self-made" LOL. Wickedpedia is not the place to go to get authentic pictures or history for that matter.

The Nafzawa could not have looked any different from a modern Tuareg of Mali who are a remnant of the Zenata. Of course there is also the possiblity that Tariq was not a Berber but the slave of a Berber which might make more sense.


Girl of Jebel Nafusa
 

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Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
 
Sorry this is the 2nd Image I meant to post...

 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
Peace and greetings.

Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?

I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.

Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?

---

See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?

How Hard is this to understand?

Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.

Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...

How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.




^^^
On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs.

---

The word Moor was not used in early times for an ethnic group. It was used for black people who occupied the coasts of North Africa synonomously called Ethiopians. When the Arabians entered Spain the Spaniards and other Latins came to call to use the name Moro for them because of their color.

Ur statement about the Moors is tantamount to saying the Negros were predominantly black. I don't know what that means, neither would have early Europeans or Christian Spaniards until the 13th century.

Kurds, Syrians, Slaves, Turks and non-white people were not called Moro in Spain contrary to recent Eurocentric blogger assertions.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
dana marniche - How do you know this?

Quote: "It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted."

.

Don't bother, I'll tell you.
Because the Turk masters of Islam told you so.
.

Reason?

.

Because if pictures of the Prophet were published, they would have to look like this.





.

INSTEAD of like THIS.



 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Muslim in Spain was not a synonym for Moro or Mauri. Neither was Moroccan or maghrebin or Arab. The word "Moro" in all Latin dictionaries meant Negro. The term tawny Moor and white Moor came into use only in the time of the 14th century mainly in England to describe the fair skinned people Moors.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
dana marniche - How do you know this?

Quote: "It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted."

.

[b]Don't bother, I'll tell you.
Because the Turk masters of Islam told you so.
.

Reason?

.

Because if pictures of the Prophet were published, they would have to look like this.


[

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
Peace and greetings.

Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?

I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.

Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?

---

See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?

How Hard is this to understand?

Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.

Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...

How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.




^^^
On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs.

---

The word Moor was not used in early times for an ethnic group. It was used for black people who occupied the coasts of North Africa synonomously called Ethiopians. When the Arabians entered Spain the Spaniards and other Latins came to call to use the name Moro for them because of their color.

Ur statement about the Moors is tantamount to saying the Negros were predominantly black. I don't know what that means, neither would have early Europeans or Christian Spaniards until the 13th century.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
[qb] Peace and greetings.

[
Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...

How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.

---

When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
That would be an impossibility since the word Moor meant black in the 8th century and not Muslim. To say black black is redundant I would say.

Moors were black people who were Christians Jews and Muslims. Anyone who says otherwise does not know history. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
Are you talking about "the Tariq". Tariq bin Ziyad of the Nafzawa Berbers who belonged to the unquestionably Zenata tribe originally from the deserts of Tripolitania, and known as Zenafej in the eastern desert of Sudan?!

Are you talking about that later sculpture of Tariq that shows some Gothic looking man on a horse?! What Tariq are you talking about - the one in some European's underactive imagination or are you talking about Tariq of the Nafusa.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
Peace and greetings.

Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?

I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.

Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?

---

See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?

How Hard is this to understand?

Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.

Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...

How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.




^^^
On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs.

---

The word Moor was not used in early times for an ethnic group. It was used for black people who occupied the coasts of North Africa synonomously called Ethiopians. When the Arabians entered Spain the Spaniards and other Latins came to call to use the name Moro for them because of their color.

Ur statement about the Moors is tantamount to saying the Negros were predominantly black. I don't know what that means, neither would have early Europeans or Christian Spaniards until the 13th century.

---

When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.

---

Whose "we"? The word Moor was not originally used for all of Muslim Spaniards by the English. And when "we" say "Moorish" Spain that refers to the culture that was brought into Spain by the people that were called Moors.

Muslims elsewhere did not necessarily have "Moorish" culture. When one says "Moorish" they are talking of a particular brand of Muslim culture that was brought their mainly by the Almoravide and the original Yemenite Arabians.
When one says the Moorish wail or the Moorish architecture that refers to something unique to African and Afro-Arabian culture which was the dominant culture of Muslim Spain.
These people had a different culture than the Syrians, Iranians, Kurds and Turks that the Middle East.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
dana marniche have you ever heard of a "Black-A-Moor"? There is a tawny moor, Black-a-moor. Do you know the difference between a tawny moor and a black a moor?

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
That would be an impossibility since the word Moor meant black in the 8th century and not Muslim. To say black black is redundant I would say.

Moors were black people who were Christians Jews and Muslims. Anyone who says otherwise does not know history.

---

[/QB]

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Do you mean black - a -Moor as in Haydyn "the blackaMoor" so called because he was like a Moor in color as J. A Rogers rightly wrote.. Or do u mean the Stormfront brand of blackaMoor.


Black as a Moor = Black -a -Moor!
 

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Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 
jari-Ankhamun I was not referring to you if you do not subscribe to this view that the majority of the moors were Black.

I already know the moorish movement included Blacks. The blacks for the most part were conscripts. Also, blacks were the minority in moorish spain, as well as moorish north Africa.

Here is a 10th century depiction of moors. As you can see there is one black moor amongst the majority Berber and Arab moors:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?

How Hard is this to understand?

Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.

Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...

How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.




^^^
On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs. The word Moor was not used in early times for an ethnic group. It was used for black people who occupied the coasts of North Africa synonomously called Ethiopians. When the Arabians entered Spain the Spaniards and other Latins came to call to use the name Moro for them because of their color.

Ur statement about the Moors is tantamount to saying the Negros were predominantly black. I don't know what that means, neither would have early Europeans or Christian Spaniards until the 13th century. When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
[qb] Peace and greetings.

[
Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...

How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.

---

When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.

---

I'm not really arguing with u Jari but to play devil's advocate whose "we"? The word Moor was not originally used for all of Muslim Spaniards by the English. And when "we" say "Moorish" Spain that refers to the culture that was brought into Spain by the people that were called Moors.

Muslims elsewhere did not necessarily have "Moorish" culture. When one says "Moorish" they are talking of a particular brand of Muslim culture that was brought their mainly by the Almoravide and the original Yemenite Arabians.
When one says the Moorish wail or the Moorish architecture that refers to something unique to African and Afro-Arabian culture which was the dominant culture of Muslim Spain.
These people had a different culture than the Syrians, Iranians, Kurds and Turks that the Middle East.

---

Trust me Dana I don't want to argue, I value opinions. If you respect me I will respect you adn you seem to be rather respectful.

I think we should be able to talk amoungst each other as true Intellegencia with out insults and boast of Racial superiority.

Dana you say it was mainly Yemite and Almoravids who brought the culture. My research says that Abd Rachman a Half Berber half(I think) Syrian brought the Near Easter culture to Al-Andalucia. Of course the Almoravids and Almohads brought their share. Don't you think it was multicultural??
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
...If you r implying that during its time the inhabitants distiqueshed themselves, well O.K, that is very likely but the fact is now a days "Moor" is a blanket term.

Yes Dana the dominant culture was Afro-Arabian

Dana you would'nt be able to translate that you tube clip???

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quote:

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Tawny \Taw"ny\, a. [Compar. Tawnier; superl. Tawniest.]

[F. tann['e], p. p. of tanner to tan. See Tan, v. t. & n. Cf. Tenn['e].]

Of a dull yellowish brown color, like things tanned, or persons who are sunburnt; as, tawny Moor or Spaniard; the tawny lion. "A leopard's tawny and spotted hide." --Longfellow. [1913 Webster]

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
Do you mean black - a -Moor as in Haydyn "the blackaMoor" so called because he was like a Moor in color as J. A Rogers rightly wrote.. Or do u mean the Stormfront brand of blackaMoor.


Black as a Moor = Black -a -Moor!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
And what about "Tawny moor"? According to your logic, that would mean - "Tawny as a Moor." I think you should reconsider the exegesis on Black-a-moor.

Just incase you've never heard of a tawnymoor:


Tawny \Taw"ny\, a. [Compar. Tawnier; superl. Tawniest.]

[F. tann['e], p. p. of tanner to tan. See Tan, v. t. & n. Cf. Tenn['e].]

Of a dull yellowish brown color, like things tanned, or persons who are sunburnt; as, tawny Moor or Spaniard; the tawny lion. "A leopard's tawny and spotted hide." --Longfellow. [1913 Webster]

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
Do you mean black - a -Moor as in Haydyn "the blackaMoor" so called because he was like a Moor in color as J. A Rogers rightly wrote.. Or do u mean the Stormfront brand of blackaMoor.


Black as a Moor = Black -a -Moor!

---

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
My beief is that there was a nice sized populations of Blacks they just became absorbed into the society. Lets say if alot of Black Berbers and other African came, The Moors took no wives from Africa so in time much of the population would have been mixed.

There were also large populations of Blacks in places like Mauritania and Morocco during this time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
And what about "Tawny moor"? According to your logic, that would mean - "Tawny as a Moor." I think you should reconsider the exegesis on Black-a-moor.

Just incase you've never heard of a tawnymoor:


Tawny \Taw"ny\, a. [Compar. Tawnier; superl. Tawniest.]

[F. tann['e], p. p. of tanner to tan. See Tan, v. t. & n. Cf. Tenn['e].]

Of a dull yellowish brown color, like things tanned, or persons who are sunburnt; as, tawny Moor or Spaniard; the tawny lion. "A leopard's tawny and spotted hide." --Longfellow. [1913 Webster]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Do you mean black - a -Moor as in Haydyn "the blackaMoor" so called because he was like a Moor in color as J. A Rogers rightly wrote.. Or do u mean the Stormfront brand of blackaMoor.


Black as a Moor = Black -a -Moor!

---

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That is not my logic - Abed. That is what it meant black -a - moor is also different than tawny Moor i.e. "tawny Negro". And yes the term white moor came to be used as well after 1000 years of the word Moor meaning Negro. Also I submit to you one should not just make up things without showing the proof of it outside of Wikipedia or Stormfront or else one runs into problems.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
That is not my logic - Abed. That is what it meant black -a - moor

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quote:

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is also different than tawny Moor i.e. "tawny Negro"

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quote:

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And yes the term white moor came to be used as well

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quote:

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Also I submit to you one should not just make up things without showing the proof of it outside of Wikipedia or Stormfront or else one runs into problems.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
According to your logic Haydn the composer and other Europeans were called blackaMoors because they were black Moors. Now how much sense does that make?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
dana, there were three kinds of moors in literature; Black-a-moor, tawny-moor, and moor.

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
According to your logic Haydn the composer and other Europeans were called blackaMoors because they were black Moors. Now how much sense does that make?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Muhommed Abed Quote: - "I already know the moorish movement included Blacks. The blacks for the most part were conscripts. Also, blacks were the minority in moorish spain, as well as moorish north Africa."

YOU LET THIS IDIOT GET AWAY WITH THIS??
AFRICA - THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE BLACK MAN!!!

What a sad bunch you are.

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I guess he said that on another posting. He basically said I already know the Negro movement included blacks who were mostly conscripts.

Hopefully he's leearned something since then, or else must be one of those nationalists of some sort that use the name black for slaves. He can't conceive of the fact that early and pure Arabs were just Negroes of various types - not much different from the original Berbers, taking white slaves.
 

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Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 
dana you are the one making the claim and you are asking me to look it up?

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
Maybe in the literature of th 14th century onwards yes. And moor mean Negro in Mozarabic Spain. LOOK IT UP!!!

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
I agree.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
My beief is that there was a nice sized populations of Blacks they just became absorbed into the society. Lets say if alot of Black Berbers and other African came, The Moors took no wives from Africa so in time much of the population would have been mixed.

There were also large populations of Blacks in places like Mauritania and Morocco during this time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
YOU LET THIS IDIOT GET AWAY WITH THIS??
AFRICA - THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE BLACK MAN!!!

What a sad bunch you are.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
My problem is racist like Fawal who think they are better than blacks and makes comments like:
Yes I will agree with you on that definition of "Moor." But I do hope that you come to the realization that the "black" elements in Moorish society was negligible, outside of your odd slave or mercenary.
^^^
So according to him Blacks were only Slaves??

I want you are Fawal to prove Blacks were only Slaves...

This just proves to me that you're the typical low IQ black

I want to know where I insulted this dude for him to respond like that. This is the problem Afrocentrist are lebeled as the bad guys and yet almost every troll on here can not debate without resorting to Racial insults and induendos. I could care less what some Arab **** thinks about me I just bring it up becuase you nor your cohorts never seem to have a problem with White Racists only us Evil "Afrocentrics"(I don't consider myself Afrocentric although I appreach history from an African perspective).

This is why I have a problem with Islam. These Muslims here will in one breath say they are brothers to the Africans that adhere to their non-sense in the next breath claim blacks are savage, etc. At least the White Christian Racists are honest.

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
Oh the wickipedia version right. Like the Moorish rulers on Wickipedia. Just what I thought. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
Where did I say Black moors were slaves?

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
My problem is racist like Fawal who think they are better than blacks and makes comments like:
Yes I will agree with you on that definition of "Moor." But I do hope that you come to the realization that the "black" elements in Moorish society was negligible, outside of your odd slave or mercenary.
^^^
So according to him Blacks were only Slaves??

I want you are Fawal to prove Blacks were only Slaves...

This just proves to me that you're the typical low IQ black

I want to know where I insulted this dude for him to respond like that. This is the problem Afrocentrist are lebeled as the bad guys and yet almost every troll on here can not debate without resorting to Racial insults and induendos. I could care less what some Arab **** thinks about me I just bring it up becuase you nor your cohorts never seem to have a problem with White Racists only us Evil "Afrocentrics"(I don't consider myself Afrocentric although I appreach history from an African perspective).

This is why I have a problem with Islam. These Muslims here will in one breath say they are brothers to the Africans that adhere to their non-sense in the next breath claim blacks are savage, etc. At least the White Christian Racists are honest.

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From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves?? It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society..which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board. Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this, Poke fun at African Adobe Mosques, then in the next breath say: "Blacks are generally well Liked In the Muslim World"-Peace be upon you my Brother..
Or my fav. "You Were Muslims before The White Man Enslaved You-Turn to your Roots my Brother-
Sorry if I sound like Im putting words in your mouth but I honestly don't know what you Muslims feel

From my research there was a large role of Black Moors and they became absorbed into the population and part of Al Andalucian society..Mixed Race now. In some of the pics alot of the moors can arguably look Mixed Race-which according to the History, remember The Moors took wives from Iberia-would make sense

Also from my research the Moors were darker in Places like Mauritaunia and Morrocco and their decendants are still there...
 

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Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Islam forbade depictions of the human form and therefore there are not a lot of drawings of Muslims from the Islamic period in Spain. Those that do survive are only fragmentary and do not provide the evidence needed to confirm the ethnic make up of the Islamic population. The secure way to identify these populations is by the remains and through genetic testing, which has confirmed the large number of Africans among the Islamic populations of Spain.

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Yes but the Spanish Muslims were VERY-VERY Liberal when it came to Islam. Why do you think the Almoravids and ESPECIALLY the Almohads were so violent and thus hated by the Iberian Muslims so much. I have even read that a large portion of the Iberian Muslims were drunkards I guess we can equate them as Luke Warm Muslims who changed the rules to fit their society-Kinda like Roman Catholics. I agree with you though I think those Images don't accuratly portray the Moors as a whole.
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves?? It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society..which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board. Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this, Poke fun at African Adobe Mosques

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves??

---

quote:

---

It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society. which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board.

---

quote:

---

Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...

---

quote:

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They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this,

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quote:

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Poke fun at African Adobe Mosques, then in the next breath say: "Blacks are generally well Liked In the Muslim World"-Peace be upon you my Brother..

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quote:

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From my research there was a large role of Black Moors and they became absorbed into the population and part of Al Andalucian society..Mixed Race now.

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In some of the pics alot of the moors can arguably look Mixed Race-which according to the History, remember The Moors took wives from Iberia-would make sense.

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quote:

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Also from my research the Moors were darker in Places like Mauritaunia and Morrocco and their decendants are still there...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves?? It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society..which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board. Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...

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quote:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:


They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this,

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This is the sentiment in Arabia; pre islam. But Islam teaches us all man are equal before Allah.

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Originally posted by Doug M:

To be honest to the history of Islam one should not over glorify the role of Africans because that would down play the hatred and racism that has also played a part in that history as well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:
Video "Ghandi the racist"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afkdi5Q1xRY

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Originally posted by markellion:
Are you certain there were these attitudes before Islam?

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In the first place, we are nationally concerned in this trade. Dr. Livingstone—no slight authority upon the matter—asserts positively that the trade is absolutely maintained by the capital of our East Indian subjects. In one of his letters, just published by the Foreign Office, Livingstone says:—

' The subject to which I beg to draw your attention, is the part which the Banians of Zanzibar, who are protected British subjects, play in carrying on the slave-trade in Central Africa. The Banian British subjects have long been, and are now, the chief propagators of the Zanzibar slave-trade; their money, and often their muskets, gunpowder, balls, flints, beads, brass-wire, and calico, are annually advanced to the Arabs, at enormous interest, for the murderous work of slavery, of the nature of which every Banian is fully aware. Having mixed much with the Arabs in the interior, I soon learned the whole system that is called " Cutchce," or Banian trading, is simply marauding and murdering by the Arabs, at the instigation and by the aid of our Indian fellowsubjects. The canny Indians secure nearly all the profits of the caravans they send inland, and very adroitly let the odium of slavery rest on their Arab agents. As a rule, very few Arabs could proceed on a trading expedition unless supplied by the Banians with arms, ammunition, and goods. ... It strikes me that it is well I have been brought face to face with the Banian system, that inflicts enormous evils on Central Africa. Gentlemen in India who see only the wealth brought to Bombay and Cutch, and know that the religion of the Banians does not allow them to harm a fly, very naturally conclude that all Cutchees may safely be intrusted with the possession of slaves, but I have been forced to see that those who shrink from killing a flea or a mosquito are virtually the worst cannibals in all Africa. The Manyema cannibals, amongst whom I spent nearly two years, are innocents compared with our protected Banian fellow-subjects. By their Arab agents, they compass the destruction of more human lives in one year than the Manyema do for their fleshpots in ten; and could the Indian gentlemen who oppose the anti-slavetrade policy of the Foreign Office but witness the horrid deeds done by the Banian agents they would be foremost in decreeing that every Cutchee found guilty of direct slavery should forthwith be shipped back to India, if not to the Andaman Islands.'—Livingstorie't despatches.

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quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:
Ya this kind of racism was a major part of European colonialism. They went through a tremendous amount of effort to spread their racial hierarchy and one can see how history was altered to fit their racial hierarchies

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quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:
The bellow involves both Arabs and Indians who were manipulated by the British. The slave trade reached this extent because of British and other European encouraged it

"East African slave trade" 1871

http://books.google.com/books?id=A23WAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA284&dq=t#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:

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In the first place, we are nationally concerned in this trade. Dr. Livingstone—no slight authority upon the matter—asserts positively that the trade is absolutely maintained by the capital of our East Indian subjects. In one of his letters, just published by the Foreign Office, Livingstone says:—

' The subject to which I beg to draw your attention, is the part which the Banians of Zanzibar, who are protected British subjects, play in carrying on the slave-trade in Central Africa. The Banian British subjects have long been, and are now, the chief propagators of the Zanzibar slave-trade; their money, and often their muskets, gunpowder, balls, flints, beads, brass-wire, and calico, are annually advanced to the Arabs, at enormous interest, for the murderous work of slavery, of the nature of which every Banian is fully aware. Having mixed much with the Arabs in the interior, I soon learned the whole system that is called " Cutchce," or Banian trading, is simply marauding and murdering by the Arabs, at the instigation and by the aid of our Indian fellowsubjects. The canny Indians secure nearly all the profits of the caravans they send inland, and very adroitly let the odium of slavery rest on their Arab agents. As a rule, very few Arabs could proceed on a trading expedition unless supplied by the Banians with arms, ammunition, and goods. ... It strikes me that it is well I have been brought face to face with the Banian system, that inflicts enormous evils on Central Africa. Gentlemen in India who see only the wealth brought to Bombay and Cutch, and know that the religion of the Banians does not allow them to harm a fly, very naturally conclude that all Cutchees may safely be intrusted with the possession of slaves, but I have been forced to see that those who shrink from killing a flea or a mosquito are virtually the worst cannibals in all Africa. The Manyema cannibals, amongst whom I spent nearly two years, are innocents compared with our protected Banian fellow-subjects. By their Arab agents, they compass the destruction of more human lives in one year than the Manyema do for their fleshpots in ten; and could the Indian gentlemen who oppose the anti-slavetrade policy of the Foreign Office but witness the horrid deeds done by the Banian agents they would be foremost in decreeing that every Cutchee found guilty of direct slavery should forthwith be shipped back to India, if not to the Andaman Islands.'—Livingstorie't despatches.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves?? It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society..which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board. Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...

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Islam has always been a house divided. The greatest insults and conflicts have been WITHIN ISLAM. And all across the Islamic world there were slaves: Arabian slaves due to wars between various Arabian tribes, Babylonian and Syrian slaves due to the conquests of Islam, North African slaves from the Islamic conquest of North Africa, European slaves from which the word originates deriving from the Slavic people who were enslaved, Turkish slaves who were the majority of the warrior slaves used in early Islam, Afghan, Indian and South Indian slaves from the Islamic conquests there and East Asian slaves from those conquests. However, there were also rulers and dynasties from within each of those various populations as well.

Depending on what area of the islamic world and the time period there are undeniably racist hadith that can be found that slanders almost any ethnic group. That is simply part of the fabric of Islam. Islamic conquests in Egypt and Sudan by the Turkish and Armenian muslims were especially vicious towards Africans of the South, probably because these Africans had been so successful in resisting Islam for so long.

But the record of Islam makes it a love/hate relationship for Africans. They love parts because they see themselves in it and they hate parts because they see hatred and racism.

To be honest to the history of Islam one should not over glorify the role of Africans because that would down play the hatred and racism that has also played a part in that history as well.

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I agree, When I study Christianity it starts with Egypt, Ethiopia and Nubia. These people were Christian before European invaders and to me represent more pure form. Now during the Atantic Slave Trade these European forgot or did not know that African played such a role and made up Myths like the Curse of Ham-Which by the way seems to have a Muslim/Jewish history before the European's thought it up. European forced our people as well as Indians into Christianity and put up a White Man as Son of God(Which is Forbidden by the 1st commandment).
The Christian Hatred seem more easy to sift through, and I can eaisly dismiss it. Islamic Hatred is so intertwined that all I can do i judge it for what it is. And Yes you are right, this is why Al-Andalucia fell-Disunity and fighting from with in the society.

Jari-Ankhamun this kind of racism developed because of European colonialism. While there are ethnic conflicts all over the world you wouldn't expect certain people to have any specific animosity against "blacks" I don't know I have seen some Hatdiths and quotes from the begining of Islam that is anti-black.
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
How about the fact that Arabia was a colony of Ethiopia? Who cares if there were some random people with negative attitudes they still weren't strong enough to be racist against "blacks"

"Arabic Terms Used for Skin Complexions – The Black Arabs Encore"

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Red

Since in the past the term “white” was used for a person whose complexion was like a “black” person today, one must wonder what it is that the Arabs of the past called people who were “white” in the sense that the word is used today. In the past, those who had complexions like those who are considered “white” today were called red. Tha’alab, the Arabic language scholar of the 9th century AD says, “The Arabs don’t say that a man is white because of a white complexion. ‘White’ to the Arabs means that a person is pure, without any faults. If they meant that his complexion was ‘white’, they said ‘red’”.

Ibn Mandour says that the expression The Red People applies to the non-Arabs because of their whiteness and because of the fact that most of them are fair-skinned. He says that the Arabs used to call the non-Arabs such as the Romans and the Persians and their neighbors, The Red People. He also says that when the Arabs say that someone is white, they mean that he has a noble character–they don’t mean that he is white. He says that the Arabs call the slaves The Red People. This is because most of the slaves of the Arabs were white (red).

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Originally posted by markellion:
Yes but to the extent that it was rooted into society wasn't that great

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quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:
How about the fact that Arabia was a colony of Ethiopia? Who cares if there were some random people with negative attitudes they still weren't strong enough to be racist against "blacks"

"Arabic Terms Used for Skin Complexions – The Black Arabs Encore"

quote:

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Red

Since in the past the term “white” was used for a person whose complexion was like a “black” person today, one must wonder what it is that the Arabs of the past called people who were “white” in the sense that the word is used today. In the past, those who had complexions like those who are considered “white” today were called red. Tha’alab, the Arabic language scholar of the 9th century AD says, “The Arabs don’t say that a man is white because of a white complexion. ‘White’ to the Arabs means that a person is pure, without any faults. If they meant that his complexion was ‘white’, they said ‘red’”.

Ibn Mandour says that the expression The Red People applies to the non-Arabs because of their whiteness and because of the fact that most of them are fair-skinned. He says that the Arabs used to call the non-Arabs such as the Romans and the Persians and their neighbors, The Red People. He also says that when the Arabs say that someone is white, they mean that he has a noble character–they don’t mean that he is white. He says that the Arabs call the slaves The Red People. This is because most of the slaves of the Arabs were white (red).

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Originally posted by markellion:

quote:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:


They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this,

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This is the sentiment in Arabia; pre islam. But Islam teaches us all man are equal before Allah.

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I believe that Muslims were actually taught this by their colonial masters. The very name "Iran" (Aryan) is a symbol of that country being subject to European domination. Are you certain there were these attitudes before Islam?

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
Arabs were trading slaves before European whites even had a civilization. It was the Arabs who put the Europeans on to the slave trade.

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If the Banians, who are subjects of the queen, find that they will be punished for felony for direct or indirect participation in this traffic, they will use their capital in some less dangerous business. As the Arabs have not the wealth to carry on the slave trade to any extent, the British cruisers will be able to put a stop to it, even if they are not aided by the native rulers whose subjects are concerned in it. The Shah of Persia, however, has already expressed his intention to cooperate with Great Britain in this matter, and has issued two firmans peremptorily forbidding the importation of negroes by sea into his dominions, besides giving permission to British ships-of war to search all Persian vessels except those belonging to the government. The Queen of Madagascar, whose dominions have been a seat of the traffic in slaves, now binds herself to do every thing in her power to suppress it.

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Every British subject taking any part, direct or indirect, in the trade, is guilty of felony ; and if this is distinctly known, and it is known also that every effort will be made by our Bombay Government to trace home to the offender any such act, and if need be, to punish it with the utmost rigour of the law, we shall have at once done much to destroy the infamous traffic. For Dr. Livingstone is no doubt perfectly right in saying that, whilst the Arabs are ready enough to find the men who will conduct the actual risks of the trade, they have not the wealth necessary to advance the capital required

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Originally posted by markellion:
Did you miss this?

"He says that the Arabs call the slaves The Red People. This is because most of the slaves of the Arabs were white (red)."

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Even then it wasn't like racism in the United States

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Arabs were too primative to carry on the African slave trade like Europeans could.

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Also the bible has also been mistranslated

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quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves?? It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society..which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board. Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this, Poke fun at African Adobe Mosques

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Jari-Ankhamun this kind of racism developed because of European colonialism. While there are ethnic conflicts all over the world you wouldn't expect certain people to have any specific animosity against "blacks"

Video "Ghandi the racist"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afkdi5Q1xRY

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quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
Nearly a thousand years of Arabs enslaving Black Africans because they felt we were weak and inferior. They did not consider Blacks human (until the advent of Islam and even after a Black man's conversion, the Arab muslims did not consider his Black counterpart an equal). You think that wasn't strong enough to be a racist against blacks?

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Originally posted by Doug M:
LOL! Too true. Ghandi's famous conversion into a champion for Indian rights came after he was not allowed to sit in the train car with whites in South Africa. Then he started to produce all sorts speeches and columns AGAINST black South Africans. He thought he was supposed to be part of the "white club". This is notwithstanding the fact that many Indians in South Africa were servants and slaves as well. Likewise, you have to understand that he was in the British Army in South Africa and therefore indoctrinated to hate blacks as an ambulance driver. A great many Indians served under the British all over the world and therefore were similarly indoctrinated into their racist world view.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves??

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I am a black muslim.

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It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society. which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board.

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Fawal is Fawal (is he muslim?) and I am me.

quote:

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Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...

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This racist attitude towards Blacks usually comes from the Saudi Arabian muslims. However, they do not represent islam.

quote:

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They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this,

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This is the sentiment in Arabia; pre islam. But Islam teaches us all man are equal before Allah.

quote:

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Poke fun at African Adobe Mosques, then in the next breath say: "Blacks are generally well Liked In the Muslim World"-Peace be upon you my Brother..

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Not all muslim are racist. You will find this attitude predominantly in Saudi Arabia.

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From my research there was a large role of Black Moors and they became absorbed into the population and part of Al Andalucian society..Mixed Race now.

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I agree, they eventually were absorbed into the Andalucian society. However, the people of that region retained most of their european genetic heritage. We can see this in their phenotype.

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In some of the pics alot of the moors can arguably look Mixed Race-which according to the History, remember The Moors took wives from Iberia-would make sense.

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It was the Arabs who controlled the armies and they recruited heavily and predominantly in north Africa (Berbers) and then further down in east Africa, niger and ghana areas.

quote:

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Also from my research the Moors were darker in Places like Mauritaunia and Morrocco and their decendants are still there...

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True but one could tell the difference between a mauritanian moor and a moor from east africa.

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Well its obvious I am talking to a respectable and well mannered person of the Islamic Faith.-On a side note I ran into a Black American Muslim that after bumping heads we came to have much respect for each other. He was way more respectable at first than I was.

Im glad we can discuss without insults and such. Also Im glad that we agree and that you are open minded. As far as Fawal being a Muslim or not from my experience he is a product of his Muslim Arab culture be he a Muslim or not. I know you claim this does not rep. Islam but I am just giving my opinion from my experience.

Just a side not-My Dad is a Muslim, You can say Im a Christian but I keep the Sabbath and am inclined to a mixture of Judaisim/Christianity.

Any great conversation...
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
After reading the above posts, one thing is clear, the White mans programing is very effective. It has caused you to loose your minds. Arabia and Africa are on the same latitude and side-by-side, yet you expect Arabs and Africans to look different - brilliant!

As to the religious quotes;

Do you really think that someone who looks like this:


Portrait of an Arab Woman
Frederico Bartolini


Would have written this?




Ishaq:243 "I heard the Apostle say: 'Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks.... Allah sent down concerning him: 'To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom."

[9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, 'If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Ishaq:144 "A rock was put on a slave's chest. When Abu Bakr complained, they said, 'You are the one who corrupted him, so save him from his plight.' I will do so,' said Bakr. 'I have a black slave, tougher and stronger than Bilal, who is a heathen. I will exchange him. The transaction was carried out."

Qur'an 9:97 "The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger."

Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."

Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah's Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Bukhari: V9B89N256 "Allah's Apostle said, 'You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.'"

Ishaq:450 "It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah's army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent."

Ishaq:374 "The black troops and slaves of the Meccans cried out and the Muslims replied, 'Allah destroy your sight, you impious rascals.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N137 "The Prophet said, 'Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.'"
 

---

Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Again the term more Moor was long in existance before the Islamic era in Roman times..see Claudian chiding Gildo in another thread, and it was often used as a synonom for or in conjuntion with the term Ethiope..although often used for folks west of the Nile but not exclusivly so.

The following excerpt was dealing with the Moors in East Africa very shortly after the reconquesta.

DUARTE BARBOSA

Swahili Civilization

The value of Duarte Barbosa's memoirs lie in their picture of the East Coast before the full impact of Portuguese intervention had been felt. They summarize the knowledge of a man who first saw the coast in 1500 or 1501, and last saw it in 1517 or 1518. I have modernized the orthography of the place names.

Sofala

And the manner of their traffic was this: they came in small vessels named zambucos from the kingdoms of Kilwa, Mombasa, and Malindi, bringing many cotton cloths, some spotted and others white and blue, also some of silk, and many small beads, gray, red,

and yellow, which things come to the said kingdoms from the great kingdom of Cambay [in Northwest India] in other greater ships. And these wares the said Moors who came from Malindi and Mombasa [ purchased from others who bring them hither and] paid for in gold at such a price that those merchants departed well pleased; which gold they gave by weight.

The Moors of Sofala kept these wares and sold them afterwards to the heathen of the Kingdom of Benametapa,<Mwene Mutapa> who came thither laden with gold which they gave in exchange for the said cloths without weighing it. These Moors collect also great store of ivory which they find hard by Sofala, and this also they sell in the [Indian] Kingdom of Cambay at five or six cruzados the quintal. They also sell some ambergris, which is brought to them from the Hucicas, and is exceeding good. These Moors are black, and some of them tawny; some of them speak Arabic, but the more part use the language of the country . They clothe themselves from the waist down with cotton and silk cloths, and other cloths they wear over their shoulders like capes, and turbans on their heads. Some of them wear small caps dyed in grain in chequers and other woolen clothes in many tints, also camlets and other silks.
www.africahistoryonline.com/Swahili.html
 

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Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 
In modern and historical times, YES. I do expect them to look different. If you want to go back pre history then I would say the indigenous population of that entire mid-east, mediteranean and African area were dark skin. Mike111, people evolve. Populations change. During the recorded history of that region, the Arabs certainly did not look like Black Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
After reading the above posts, one thing is clear, the White mans programing is very effective. It has caused you to loose your minds. Arabia and Africa are on the same latitude and side-by-side, yet you expect Arabs and Africans to look different - brilliant!

As to the religious quotes;

Do you really think that someone who looks like this:


Portrait of an Arab Woman
Frederico Bartolini


Would have written this?




Ishaq:243 "I heard the Apostle say: 'Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks.... Allah sent down concerning him: 'To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom."

[9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, 'If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Ishaq:144 "A rock was put on a slave's chest. When Abu Bakr complained, they said, 'You are the one who corrupted him, so save him from his plight.' I will do so,' said Bakr. 'I have a black slave, tougher and stronger than Bilal, who is a heathen. I will exchange him. The transaction was carried out."

Qur'an 9:97 "The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger."

Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."

Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah's Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Bukhari: V9B89N256 "Allah's Apostle said, 'You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.'"

Ishaq:450 "It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah's army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent."

Ishaq:374 "The black troops and slaves of the Meccans cried out and the Muslims replied, 'Allah destroy your sight, you impious rascals.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N137 "The Prophet said, 'Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.'"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
In modern and historical times, YES. I do expect them to look different. If you want to go back pre history then I would say the indigenous population of that entire mid-east, mediteranean and African area were dark skin. Mike111, people evolve. Populations change. During the recorded history of that region, the Arabs certainly did not look like Black Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
After reading the above posts, one thing is clear, the White mans programing is very effective. It has caused you to loose your minds. Arabia and Africa are on the same latitude and side-by-side, yet you expect Arabs and Africans to look different - brilliant!

As to the religious quotes;

Do you really think that someone who looks like this:


Portrait of an Arab Woman
Frederico Bartolini


Would have written this?




Ishaq:243 "I heard the Apostle say: 'Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks.... Allah sent down concerning him: 'To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom."

[9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, 'If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Ishaq:144 "A rock was put on a slave's chest. When Abu Bakr complained, they said, 'You are the one who corrupted him, so save him from his plight.' I will do so,' said Bakr. 'I have a black slave, tougher and stronger than Bilal, who is a heathen. I will exchange him. The transaction was carried out."

Qur'an 9:97 "The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger."

Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."

Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah's Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Bukhari: V9B89N256 "Allah's Apostle said, 'You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.'"

Ishaq:450 "It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah's army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent."

Ishaq:374 "The black troops and slaves of the Meccans cried out and the Muslims replied, 'Allah destroy your sight, you impious rascals.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N137 "The Prophet said, 'Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.'"

---

---

Considering that there are native blacks in Arabia today, it cannot be true that they simply disappeared in the historical period. Likewise Arabia has been receiving Asiatic blood for the last few thousand years, right up until the expulsion of the Ottomans by the British.

Saudis are diverse:





http://www.galenfrysinger.com/jeddah,_its_people.htm


http://www.flickr.com/photos/saudibarcamp/3800473042/in/set-72157621977677682/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kilam/3313600749/in/set-72157614514522236/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/kilam/3319588375/in/set-72157614514522236/
 

---

Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 
During the historical period of that region, the population had already changed phenotypically. As I stated in a previously, prejudism against dark skin was the norm; dark skin was not the norm. Ancient Egyptian depictions of semites appear as white skin people. Additionally, the Arabs imported African black slaves. Those blacks have to be accounted for. Where are their descendants today? I believe much of your Blacks in Arabia today are a result of the trans Arab slave trade.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Considering that there are native blacks in Arabia today, it cannot be true that they simply disappeared in the historical period.

---

 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Muhommed Abed - You really do say some stupid things.

.

Quote: "Populations change. During the recorded history of that region, the Arabs certainly did not look like Black Africans."

.

And you wonder why I call you an idiot. When do you think the portrait was made, 5000 B.C.?

How about these people? The picture was taken with a camera.





 

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Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

Quote: "Populations change. During the recorded history of that region, the Arabs certainly did not look like Black Africans."


And you wonder why I call you an idiot.

---

quote:

---

When do you think the portrait was made, 5000 B.C.?

---

quote:

---

How about these people? The picture was taken with a camera.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
[QB] Muhommed Abed - The Turks conquered Arabia in 1811 A.D. So when you say "pre Arab civilization" you are talking about before 1811?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Klutz, the original Iberian context of Moors in the Iberian peninsula is precisely that: "black African" figures of Moorish presence in the area, starting with the Almoravids.

The concept of flag bearing the Moorish heads, along with similar renditions on coins, is contemporaneous with Moorish Iberia; where and when else would it have come from; 19th Century racist European? And if Moors were anything but 'black', you'd be seeing white heads instead of black ones, would you not. Use your head for once.

As if to mock you further, the above is consistent with genetic and skeletal data.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

The name Moor was never used in the 8-10th century for white Muslims so that is not going to be possible.

It simply meant the black man whether Christian Muslim or Jew.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?

---

Correction: That is "your" (Jari-Ankamun's) argument. Here is mine, as I specifically spelled it out in another thread...

This is my steadfast position: The original Iberian context is reference to Black African figures of Moorish presence in that area.

Has the word been indiscriminately used thereafter, i.e. post-Moorish Iberia Europe? Yes.

Does this change the original context? No.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Klutz, the original Iberian context of Moors in the Iberian peninsula is precisely that: "black African" figures of Moorish presence in the area, starting with the Almoravids.

The concept of flag bearing the Moorish heads, along with similar renditions on coins, is contemporaneous with Moorish Iberia; where and when else would it have come from; 19th Century racist European? And if Moors were anything but 'black', you'd be seeing white heads instead of black ones, would you not. Use your head for once.

As if to mock you further, the above is consistent with genetic and skeletal data.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

The name Moor was never used in the 8-10th century for white Muslims so that is not going to be possible.

It simply meant the black man whether Christian Muslim or Jew.

---

Bingo. Where can one come across the naming of "white" Muslim elites of the 8th to 10th century as Moors in primary Iberian texts of those era, or to be technical about it -- Moros and Mouros respectively?

So far, I've managed to come across the term only some time around the 11th century, and it certainly raises the question why.

---

You very well may be right, like I said before the Andalucian population had many different tribes, the only thing is its confusing now when you have so many different uses for the name. Im sure the Creator of this thread meant it that was I.E the Andalucian Population as a whole.

Here is something Post 10th centurey with "Mauros" in the Heading..


Anyway I gonna do a little more research to crack this confusion.
 

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Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
 
.
.

There must be a zillion threads dealing with Moors and filled with portrayals of them here at E.S.


http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-800-41.html


http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-800-00-18a.html



http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-800-00-18c.html



http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Pottery.Boats.Ruins/02-16-800-00-18g.html


.
.
 

---

Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 
Marc Washington, do you have anything from the 8th to 10th century?
 

---

Posted by Muhommed Abed (Member # 17412) on :
 
I'm not sure if that is meant as a compliment or you're taking at swipe at me. I don't think my intention is to spur debate, although a debate has ensued as a result of my question about moorish society. I think my position is clear - the moors consisted of non-blacks (Berbers, Arabs) and blacks. My question is, can the Afrocentric brothers who claim that blacks were the majority in moorish spain and north Africa provide proof of this? I'm interested in artwork between the 8th and 10th century. What I have seen posted up are depictions from the 15th century.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
He, he, yes indeed.

Muhommed Abed - Every creature has it's function, and it's part to play. As in your previous incarnations, you have managed to spur debate on the board, therefore you have a function.

You have adapted well to the terrain, and your stealth is admirable. But an old hunter does not miss the signs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:

Marc Washington, do you have anything from the 8th to 10th century?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:

My question is, can the Afrocentric brothers who claim that blacks were the majority in moorish spain and north Africa provide proof of this?

---

This, as I have alluded to above, would be predicated on your ability to define what you consider "Moorish" Spain, defining the precise timelines and why you consider it so.

Secondly, the "Moors" could not possibly be the majority in Spain at any point in time, because well, their presence there was only that of minority foreign rulers.

Thirdly, north Africa is a fairly broad geographical region. There are obvious clinal physical and genetic variations within this expanse. However, it goes back to that question of who you consider "Moor", what their empire was called, and when they began their presence in the Iberian peninsula. For instance, I consider the Almoravid empire "Moorish", primarily because its leading figures were described in terms that is suggestive of dark-skinned people or blacks, and that that is the norm in the region where they originated at any rate. It is a viewpoint that seems to go hand in hand with findings on DNA samples taken from 'Moorish' era remains, and other findings, like that mentioned here: Link. Am I wrong? If so, here's your opportunity to set me straight.
 

---

Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
 
[Mohammed Abed writes] Marc Washington, do you have anything from the 8th to 10th century?


[Marc writes] Mohammed. I have a view held by only few and that is that the Moors didn't emerge from a vacuum but are descendants of the Canaanites / Hebrew / Semites / Phoenicians who "unfolded" over history spreading from Canaan through North Africa and Carthage up through Spain and throughout Europe.

These are the pages I'd use for background to that discussion:


http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/05-09-000-12.html


http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/700_mediterranean/02-16-700-00-05.html

From my perspective, the Moors were at their time the fruit of many stages of evolution / development of an Ancient African peoples whose ancestral images are seen particularly on the page Canaanite / Phoenician Africans as Moors.

In this scenario, they'd go back thousands of years BC.

.
.
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:
I think my position is clear - the moors consisted of non-blacks (Berbers, Arabs) and blacks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
I think allot of these racist hadiths are connected to 20th century European domination because the kind of things Mike posted Europeans didn't talk about in the 19th century. This is very important and it is dangerous to think that those things that Mike111 post are accurate portrayals of what the original people wrote.

Perry Noble pointed out that Mohamed supposedly said "The lord destroy the Christians and Jews" but no where in there does Perry Noble note any racism amongst ancient Arabs or Mohammad

http://books.google.com/books?id=vdxBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Edit: It must be noted that this guy is Anti-Islamic and he is against Islam in Africa. Everything would indicate that he would want to use these hadiths to say that Islam is racist and Africans should join Christianity. Instead he is absolutely silent about any racism that might be in Islamic texts

---

Not everything can be attributed to European colonialist conspiracy. The fact is many of the Hadiths were written by non-Arabs and therefore talk about black people negatively. People like Bukhari, Munabbih a yemenite from Iranian mercenaries, Isfehan or Tabari who were central Asians had little idea of Arabian customs or what the majority of Arabians (the real Arabs) looked like.

Some wrote of Arabs as if they were not familiar with whom they were talking about saying things like "if a man had hair like dried raisins" as if they had never been to Arabia to see all the kinky haired people. They wrote that Mohammed "ate with his hands" as if they didn't even know that Arabians ate and for that matter eat with their hands or as if it was something special. If some writer discovered that Mohammed ate with his hands and thought that was inmportant enough to write about it is a sure sign he was a non-Arab.

Ibn Ishaq's work about Nabtal has never been found and is supposed to have been written down by the Central Asian Tabari (called so because he was from Tabaristan).

The passage about Satan being a black man with flowing hair is often used to show how anti black Islam was.

Funny since al Tabari describes the Arabian Kinda (one of the tribes Mohammed descended from) he says the Kinda clan of Haskun was noted or unique for being black with straight hair - an almost unheard of among real Arabs whom if we are to believe al Manduri and the Syrian El Dhahabi were mostly black and dark brown with kinky hair. Most Arabs according to them were kinky hair. while the hair of the slaves or non-Arabs i.e. Iraqis, Syrians, Persians was "lank".

Ibn Ishaq was the grandson of "A SLAVE" named Yasur captured by the leader of the Banu Makhzum clan of QUREISH named Khalid ibn Walid also called "the Drawn Sword of Allah".

Khalid ibn Walid was the son of Walid ibn al-Mughira, the chief of the Banu Makhzum clan of the Arab tribe of STILL BLACK Quraysh. The Makhzumi clans are described in the famous work by AN IRAQI named al Jahiz.

"The clan of Mughira ARE THE KHUDR of the tribe of Makhzum . Al Makhzumi spoke the following lines, which were also from al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas al Lihbi: I am the famous Al Akhdar, very well known, the black one in the land of the Arabs. Those finding me in a contest as adversary, find a noble man. The one who fills the bucket to the knot in the rope. The Khudr of the Ghassan tribe are the royal house of Jafna...."

In this al Fadl of the 7th c. who is from MOHAMMED'S TRIBE OF THE QUREISH is taking pride in being akhdar or khudr (black) taking pride in the blackness of the Mughira and the fact that the royal house of Jafna belonged to the well-documented black Azd (and still black in southern Saudi Arabia for that matter) called Ghassan who were among the earliest Christian Arabs that colonized Syria in pre-Islamic times.

Ibn Berry of 1106 A.D. says al Fadl said this because he was "A PURE ARAB" and that the "PURE ARABS" described themselves as "the BLACKS". See Tariq Berry's The Unkown Arabs p. 60.

Khalid ibn Walid, son of Walid ibn al-Mughira, the chief of the Banu Makhzum clan of the Arab tribe of STILL BLACK Quraysh from the notoriously BLACK tribe of Kenaana (Canaan)captured Yasur, grandfather of Ibn Ishaq from Allah knows where, and brought him to Medina where the other tribe of Azdi - the notoriously BLACK and JET BLACK clans of Khazraj and Aus were the inhabitants. The descriptions of the Azd and their leaders are found in the Futuh es Shama and other texts.

If Ibn Ishaq really did write about a black man with straight hair being Satan that doesn't mean that Arabs were racist against their own kind. Although it might say something about the way real Arabs regarded lank haired people that looked like them .

In reality all of the early Arabs at one time or another are described as "black" or near black Akhdar in color. I just don't have time to go through the list now. But I guess I will soon.

As for the majority of Arab tribes coming across north Africa they were of the tribes of Hejaz and Nejd Central Arabia) called Sulaym and Hilal "black as the lava of al harra" whose concubines came from the Rum (Byzantines)" whose "blackness" due to pure Arabness is spoken of by Jahiz, Ibn Athir the Kurd and others.

To say there were 'blacks among the Arabs" would have been redundant and meaningless in Muhammed's time and an insult to the unmixed or pure Arabs whom Ibn Mudjawir said looked down on fair- skin with contempt.
 

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Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Not meaning to use anguishofbeing as an example, but I am still just disgusted with many of you

---

quote:

---

I assume that you do not understand that your statement is the same as saying that there are Whites among modern Europeans.

---

Not all "Arabs" during the time of Moorish Spain were black, dufus.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhommed Abed:

My question is, can the Afrocentric brothers who claim that blacks were the majority in moorish spain and north Africa provide proof of this?

---

This, as I have alluded to above, would be predicated on your ability to define what you consider "Moorish" Spain, defining the precise timelines and why you consider it so.

Secondly, the "Moors" could not possibly be the majority in Spain at any point in time, because well, their presence there was only that of minority foreign rulers.

Thirdly, north Africa is a fairly broad geographical region. There are obvious clinal physical and genetic variations within this expanse. However, it goes back to that question of who you consider "Moor", what their empire was called, and when they began their presence in the Iberian peninsula. For instance, I consider the Almoravid empire "Moorish", primarily because its leading figures were described in terms that is suggestive of dark-skinned people or blacks, and that that is the norm in the region where they originated at any rate. It is a viewpoint that seems to go hand in hand with findings on DNA samples taken from 'Moorish' era remains, and other findings, like that mentioned here: Link. Am I wrong? If so, here's your opportunity to set me straight.

---