Once i made believe that the Europeans (especially France) are claiming that the Berbers are of European Origin.
Now, i couldn't get this impact after having some experience with reading sources on the Berbers. It is somehow rather some afrocentrists that claim this (Anta Diop). But i suppose that i was unfortunate in finding such European claims. Could you give some source claiming this?
I do appreciate your help
Thanks in advance,
Posted by 9th Element (Member # 17629) on :
What part of (North)Africa are you from and from which tribe do you descent?
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
We have discussed this ad nauseaum. Berbers are a mix of European Iberians and East African Capsian people. East African is the dominant culture but the phenotype gene is recessive.
Read about the Iberian culture that was replaced by the Capsian.
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
9th element, You possibly believe we are "tribal" people! But it is not so. I did never associate myself with my tribe. For you question: I'm Rifian, but what is the use?
Osirion, if you read well my question, you could then discover that i'm not asking on the origin of the Berbers, because i asked: "Who claimed that the Berbers are Europeans?" with other words, who are the historians claiming this? In which books?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: We have discussed this ad nauseaum. Berbers are a mix of European Iberians and East African Capsian people. East African is the dominant culture but the phenotype gene is recessive.
Read about the Iberian culture that was replaced by the Capsian.
osirion - You get weirder every day!
North Africa and Iberia is separated by 9 miles, yet you think the two people are related to people thousands of miles away, rather than to each other.
Damn Boy, what are you smoking?
BTW - Dumb head, you DO understand that Iberians were Black people, also related to the Gauls of France.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
The Romans, Greeks, Vandals, Gauls, etc, are all European people that controlled North Africa.
These same people ended up a part of the Berber peoples as a whole.
Now to claim Berbers are European as a whole? Who would say that? Its not what their language or genes say.
They are clearly a beautiful mixture:
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^ "SOME" are mixed:
And "SOME" are NOT!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed, how a Berber looks depends on what country and what region he or she is from. Most Berber living in right in the deserts of the Sahara are obviously black such as the Tuareg and Siwa. Others living along the coasts are lighter in complexion and show a very so-called "mulatto" look. Still others mostly in the Northwestern coastal areas have Mediterranean (in a European sense) and in rare instances a 'Nordic' look such as the Riff and Kabyle. However, what's interesting is that Dana has pointed out that even the Riff and Kabyle were known to have black types which were more predominant as one goes back farther in time.
Obviously, the Berber peoples have experienced much admixture with Europe to the North and light-skinned Arabic speakers from the East but of course only blacks were aboriginal to the North African land.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Well said.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The Romans, Greeks, Vandals, Gauls, etc, are all European people that controlled North Africa.
These same people ended up a part of the Berber peoples as a whole.
Now to claim Berbers are European as a whole? Who would say that? Its not what their language or genes say.
They are clearly a beautiful mixture:
This woman is Moroccan (father) and Serbian (mother)and wasn't a good example.
But I understand what you are saying Osirion, many people came from the Iberain peninsula in recent times. We know this because the Riff region was said to have been occupied by the Moors (Amazigh). And the Moors and Turks of course brought many "millions" of slaves from Europe into North Africa as they did to Spain.
The Moors were the people called Masmuda and Zenata (Ifuraces- Tuareg and Nafusa) two still very dark-skin TRIBES of the Berbers who have never-the-less mixed with Turks and Tartars and were called "Black" as late as the time of the Syrian Abu Shama in the 13th century.
Procopius 6th c., however, did say there were people far west of the Moors who didn't have the "black skins" of the Moors and whose origin the Moors told Procopius they didn't know anything about.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Berbers are a very much mixed group.
They have White AND Black people in this group.
One thing that must be understood is that Berber is a language group with multi ethnicity.
The language traces to East Africa and is spoken in as far away as Egypt(Siwa)
The original Berbers were probably Black Skinned and some like the Tuareg, have the only written Berber script.
All in All we must not try to seperate people based on skin color, Sadly the Riffians, Kabyle think of themselves as "Pure" berbers and the Black Skinned as slaves. Shameful really.
Peace
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
What I want to know is how much the White Slavery in N.A affected the Berber Gene pool...I mean it HAD to have an affect..I mean these people did'nt just vanish into thin air..
No Wonder why Fawal completly avoids this fact...I guess it hurts knowing he is a Mix of white slaves and native N. Africans...just Like his Riyad Hadith lies he is in denial(I know Fawal still reads here..Why so silent??)
Slave....
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: What I want to know is how much the White Slavery in N.A affected the Berber Gene pool...I mean it HAD to have an affect..I mean these people did'nt just vanish into thin air..
No Wonder why Fawal completly avoids this fact...I guess it hurts knowing he is a Mix of white slaves and native N. Africans...just Like his Riyad Hadith lies he is in denial(I know Fawal still reads here..Why so silent??)
Slave....
THANK YOU.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: What I want to know is how much the White Slavery in N.A affected the Berber Gene pool...I mean it HAD to have an affect..I mean these people did'nt just vanish into thin air..
No Wonder why Fawal completly avoids this fact...I guess it hurts knowing he is a Mix of white slaves and native N. Africans...just Like his Riyad Hadith lies he is in denial(I know Fawal still reads here..Why so silent??)
dana marniche - You failed to correct this idiots ignorance. Quite surprising.
Jari - you ignoramus, though it is true that From the 16th to 19th century, pirates captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million Europeans as slaves, mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, but also from France, Britain, the Netherlands, Ireland and as far away as Iceland and North America.
That is but a SMALL aspect of the White presence in North Africa.
Libya
In 570 B.C. Libya suffered the first invasion of Africa by Whites. In that year, the Dorian Greeks attacked the Libyan city of Cyrene.
Then the Romans came and expanded
The Ottoman Turks the country in the mid-sixteenth century,
Italy made Libya a colony in 1911
Algeria
made a Roman Republic in 200 B.C.E.
In 476 A.D, the Vandals invaded, a White Germanic tribe from Asia, who had just been expelled from Iberia (Spain) by another invading Germanic tribe, the Visigoths (now called the Spanish and Portugese).
The Ottoman Turks took over in the 1300s
the French made Algeria a colony in 1830
Tunisia
From 218 to 202 B.C, Tunisia was made part of the Roman Empire. Carthage's citizens were sold into slavery.
In the year 429 Tunisia was captured by the Vandals, a Germanic people belonging to the family of East Germans.
1230 the Visigoths of Spain seized many of the coastal cities.
the Ottoman Turks took over in the 1300s.
On May 12, 1830, Tunisia, was made a French protectorate and in 1881 the country became a French colony.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Now I will say all of the following without intentionally insulting anybody who wasn't aware of it.
If we want to be comprehensive, in addition to what you said, Libya (Cyrene) was also a land of "Greek and Scythian things" by the time 2nd century B.C.
Claudian 4th century Roman accused the Moors of bringing Roman woman from the Levant creating "hybrids" among the North Africans.
The Expositio Totius Mundi, a Byzantine document lists the "Armani", "Phrygi" and "Vandali" and other European (I guess ) peoples as being among the tribes that had settled among the Mauritanie.
The Rustamite Iranian colony founded among Berbers in the M'zab region of Algeria by 8th-9th centuries.
Merchant Khorasanis of Iran and Syrians settled in Libya found at Zeila and other towns in Medieval period.
The Turks (Seljuk, Mamluk and Ottoman) also were instrumental in bringing in many Slavic (Bosnian i.e. Eastern European) slave soldiers and an endless flow of concubines from areas stretching from the Caucasus regions (especially Circassia) to western Europe.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: 9th element, You possibly believe we are "tribal" people! But it is not so. I did never associate myself with my tribe. For you question: I'm Rifian, but what is the use?
Osirion, if you read well my question, you could then discover that i'm not asking on the origin of the Berbers, because i asked: "Who claimed that the Berbers are Europeans?" with other words, who are the historians claiming this? In which books?
You like to aske questions, Mazigh. But I personally would like to know WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE.
The man is called a Riff Berber "of the race of Guelia" (Mellila) in Morocco, in the early U.S. newspaper article.
Obviously the Berbers were composed of many clans who lived in the Riff region. They made up the "tribes" that are named in many colonial texts.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The Romans, Greeks, Vandals, Gauls, etc, are all European people that controlled North Africa.
These same people ended up a part of the Berber peoples as a whole.
Now to claim Berbers are European as a whole? Who would say that? Its not what their language or genes say.
They are clearly a beautiful mixture:
This woman is Moroccan (father) and Serbian (mother)and wasn't a good example.
But I understand what you are saying Osirion, many people came from the Iberain peninsula in recent times. We know this because the Riff region was said to have been occupied by the Moors (Amazigh). And the Moors and Turks of course brought many "millions" of slaves from Europe into North Africa as they did to Spain.
The Moors were the people called Masmuda and Zenata (Ifuraces- Tuareg and Nafusa) two still very dark-skin TRIBES of the Berbers who have never-the-less mixed with Turks and Tartars and were called "Black" as late as the time of the Syrian Abu Shama in the 13th century.
Procopius 6th c., however, did say there were people far west of the Moors who didn't have the "black skins" of the Moors and whose origin the Moors told Procopius they didn't know anything about.
When were the Morrocans not considered part of the Berber speaking people?
Not aware of her Serbian ancestry.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Mike read my post Im talking about the Native people of N. Africa not the Romans who made a clear distinction between them and the Natives of N. Africa.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
dana marniche
I have to agree with Osirion on this. Morroco has the Largest Berber population in all of North Africa. Now what we can say is that Berbers in NA are mixed with Europeans and they still have an East African origin. We know the Siwa the farthest east of Berbers are related to other African and we should know that berbers in the Sahel are really where you will find the least unmixed Berbers. Of course you know all this so what I have said is for those who read, but don't post.
Peace
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Berbers are a very much mixed group.
Sadly the Riffians, Kabyle think of themselves as "Pure" berbers and the Black Skinned as slaves. Shameful really.
Peace
I'm Riffian, and this is not true. Rifians maybe take the general view on the black people. Rifians who are not influenced by worlds' view, recognize black as a color and not as a ethnicity.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^All of you ragheaded mutts are a sad and confused people.
Whites don't want you, and south of you, there are over a Billion Blacks. You are in a world of sh1t!
My advice; be REAL nice to the Blacks!
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Mazigh
Thanks for the correction. You know your people so I will take your word for it.
It's just that I always hear about these pro berber people who claim themselves as the Indeginous people of North Africa. I rarely hear them claim the Black berbers as there Brothers or Sisters. But if what you said is true, and I can't see no reason for it not to be true, I will take your word for it.
Peace
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
Black vs white vs red vs yellow is the human mentality. Exceptions are aware of these prejeduces. Generally, i think the skin-color is not taken into consideration by the Berber activists. Their cause is about re-gaining their rights.
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: You like to aske questions, Mazigh. But I personally would like to know WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE.
You stated they're Rifians! But how real are they since they're paintings?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The Romans, Greeks, Vandals, Gauls, etc, are all European people that controlled North Africa.
These same people ended up a part of the Berber peoples as a whole.
Now to claim Berbers are European as a whole? Who would say that? Its not what their language or genes say.
They are clearly a beautiful mixture:
This woman is Moroccan (father) and Serbian (mother)and wasn't a good example.
But I understand what you are saying Osirion, many people came from the Iberain peninsula in recent times. We know this because the Riff region was said to have been occupied by the Moors (Amazigh). And the Moors and Turks of course brought many "millions" of slaves from Europe into North Africa as they did to Spain.
The Moors were the people called Masmuda and Zenata (Ifuraces- Tuareg and Nafusa) two still very dark-skin TRIBES of the Berbers who have never-the-less mixed with Turks and Tartars and were called "Black" as late as the time of the Syrian Abu Shama in the 13th century.
Procopius 6th c., however, did say there were people far west of the Moors who didn't have the "black skins" of the Moors and whose origin the Moors told Procopius they didn't know anything about.
When were the Morrocans not considered part of the Berber speaking people?
Not aware of her Serbian ancestry.
Her mother is Serbian and her father a Moroccan. She is a European.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: You like to aske questions, Mazigh. But I personally would like to know WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE.
You stated they're Rifians! But how real are they since they're paintings?
Mazigh - you didn't answer my questions above about that "Berber" pirate from the Riff and "the race of Guelia". Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Mazigh - you didn't answer my questions above about that "Berber" pirate from the Riff and "the race of Guelia".
I don't think there is such a race of "guelia", and i think the painting is not respresentatif for the Berbers generally. The second picutre is clearly a fantasy.
Race of Guelia? I found this; "the savage unconquered race who dwell amongst the mountains of Guelaia Peninsula".
The question is how real/representatif it is? (second one is out of discussion).
That Guelia seems to be what we call in Berber "iqal'iyen" and "gla'a" in moroccan arabic. Berbers of Nador.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
dana marniche - You DO understand this boy is a fool?
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Mazigh - you didn't answer my questions above about that "Berber" pirate from the Riff and "the race of Guelia".
I don't think there is such a race of "guelia", and i think the painting is not respresentatif for the Berbers generally. The second picutre is clearly a fantasy.
Race of Guelia? I found this; "the savage unconquered race who dwell amongst the mountains of Guelaia Peninsula".
The question is how real/representatif it is? (second one is out of discussion).
That Guelia seems to be what we call in Berber "iqal'iyen" and "gla'a" in moroccan arabic. Berbers of Nador.
and please pray tell why an artist would go to such detail to represent Berber Pirates if the Image was not only a little off but of a different stock(A Caucasian) and please pray tell what qualifies you as authority to say the last pic is fantasy. What is it about the image that is fantacy?? The Boat, the Sea, the Sails?? Please tell..
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
There is an arab with asian clothes (the traditional arab clothes), such clothes are not Rifian at all.
Years thirties..
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Stupid little Sand Nigger.
CENTER LEFT: Caid Maclean - British Chief of Staff for training the Army: He was a large and imposing man as his portrait which hangs in Caid's Bar in the El Minzah Hotel bears witness. He became a trusted advisor to the Sultan and adopted Moorish costume whilst still retaining his Scottish identity and entertaining the Sultan's court by playing the bagpipes dressed in a fez and djellabah in the colours of the Clan Maclean. CENTER RIGHT: Sultan of Morocco Moulay Azziz (about 1890)
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Pasha T’hami Glaoui was the most powerful man in Morocco between 1953 and 1956, in addition to being one of the richest men in the world at that time.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Those dumb-assed Negros did too much of this.
Winding up with Albino-like MUTT Children like this!
The King of Morocco, S.A.R. Mohammed VI holding the Crown Prince Moulay Al Hassan and his wife Princess Lalla Salma holding their daughter Princess Lalla Khadija (center), the king's brother Prince Moulay Al Rachid, and the King's three sisters.
And me having to listen to ignorant Sand niggers like this Boy! Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Funny - he doesn't look so Albino-like here.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
The White Mans and the Sand Niggers Fantasy World - it's the same one.
The Wind and the Lion is a 1975 adventure film. Sean Connery as Mulai Ahmed er Raisuli, last Sultan of the Barbary Pirates.
VERSES
REALITY!!!!
Mulai Ahmed er Raisuli, last Sultan of the Barbary Pirates.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Clarification:
Above I refer to them as "Sand Niggers" instead of my usual "Turk Mutts". Same people, just a different level of disgust for their lying ways.
Like the White man, these White-man Mutts have no history, no achievements, (how could they, they came as Slaves) so they try to steal the Black Mans history and achievements.
And just like the White Man, they are not satisfied with just stealing the Black Mans Lands, history and achievements, these worthless ragheads also want to talk sh1t about the Black Man while doing it!
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
The Sultan Abderrahmane of Morocco, by Eugène Delacroix (1845) .
.
Funny, I don't see a single Sand Nigger. Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Oops!
Mazigh - A thousand pardons, I called you a "Turk Mutt". In fact, it appears you could be a "Spic Mutt" or a "Visigoth Mutt" if you prefer. (Visigoths are the Germanic tribe from Central Asia now called Spanish).
From the Morocco government site.
Demography
Arab migration into the region started in the 7th century A.D and the flow continued between the 1st and 10th century A.H (corresponding to the 7th and 17th century A.D), in addition to the Arabs of Andalusia who continued to arrive to the country until the end of the 10th century A.H (17th century A.D).
Throughout the years, Arab and Amazigh groups have been extensively miscegenating through marriage to the extent that only a small minority of Moroccans is not racially mixed.
Funny thing though, it seems you fuchers can't help but lie - even on your Governments site. Whats this sh1t about Arabs from Spain????
How would Black Arabs, explain your Muttness??
Going a little further at the site.
Spanish
The first Spaniards, Andalusians, came to Morocco in the 15th century. In 1885, colonists settled in the provinces of the South, then in 1912 in the provinces of the North. The recovery of Ifni and the Saharan provinces during the Independence of Morocco brought about the end of the ascendancy of the Spanish language which is widely practiced in the regions of the North and in Sahara.
Flag and Coat of arms of Andalusia
.
Pardon me Mazigh, but I just don't see anything "ARAB" about Andalusia. So what's the bullsh1t about Arab Andalusia's??
He he, It's okay Mazigh, I'm just messin with you, I know what's going on.
The Government is trying to clump the Black Moors expelled from Andalusia (the part of Spain closest to Africa) in the 1400s - with the White Spaniards who came hundreds of years later - like they were the same people - Typical Sand Nigger lie.
The government claims that there are no "Real Blacks" left in Morocco, well I hope that's true, because I would hate to think of them having to put-up with you Mutts. Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
Mike111, Congratulation, you're now the spammer number one. Post only one reply and give space for others, you have not post all you know and you think, but only the most relevant.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Mazigh - The Moroccan government said that there were no "Real Blacks" left in Morocco.
So by me posting these pictures of desert Moroccans, will they now be deported?
.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Mazigh - What's this???
Not Berber
Not Arab
Yet playing "Dress-up" to the hilt!
(This must make the king VERY Proud)!
Morocco street Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: The Sultan Abderrahmane of Morocco, by Eugène Delacroix (1845) .
.
Funny, I don't see a single Sand Nigger.
Mike I see one Sand Nigger in blue...clearly an Arab but the rest are black. Better watch out though...Altakruri the Great Jew will be angry for the use of Sand Nigger..LOL
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Damn Boy, you still haven't figured it out yet!!!
. .
These are ARABS!!!!
. .
THESE ARE SAND NIGGERS
aka - TURK MUTTS!!!
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Jare - A quiet question:
Did you REALLY think that people who look like the above, could REALLY be native to one of the Hottest, Sunniest places on the Planet???
Check yourself out.
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
Mike111, The best reply is not the longest reply with giga pinctures, one after one! The best reply is informative, short as possible, objective, ontopic and polite.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Both Mike and Jari let their anti-Arab hatred blind them to the fact that "Arab" is a linguistic term not a race.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Mike111, The best reply is not the longest reply with giga pinctures, one after one! The best reply is informative, short as possible, objective, ontopic and polite.
Okay, I will explain to Jari how Sand Niggers are made. And no, they do not come from the Cabbage patch!
One way to make a Sand Nigger is to take one Rich, Scrawny, old Nigger with a yen for White Women, like this guy. And before you know it, you got hundreds of them.
.
.
Another way to make a Sand Nigger, is with some lonely guy, living out in the interior, also with a yen for White Women. After he makes a few dollars, guess what? He buys himself a White Wife. That little boy with him will grow up to be a Sand Nigger.
.
.
Of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with being a Sand Nigger. It's just that these race confused, ungrateful ass-holes, then want to turn around and talk sh1t about their very own Grandfathers people.
When what they should be doing, is bowing down to every Black man they see, and saying thank you for giving me, me, and everything that I have.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
anguishofbeingstupid - Don't forget you're nothing but a Nigger without melanin. Since nature played such a cruel trick on you, I don't expect you to bow down and say thank you. The Sand Niggers DID get some melanin, so I DO expect them to be grateful.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Both Mike and Jari let their anti-Arab hatred blind them to the fact that "Arab" is a linguistic term not a race.
I know this but when I say Arab I mean the Natives of Arabia, you are right it is more linguistic but there is a phenotye or Nation or "Arabs"...I guess Ishmaelite should work...even though you don't believe in Ishmael or biblical characters there are those who do.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Jari - I see you are easily led.
The Albino Cockroach's people were being exposed, and he just needed something to say.
Think for yourself.
Is not an Englishman an Englishman because he comes from England?
Is not a Scott a Scott because he comes from Scotland?
Is not a Welshman a Welshman because he comes from Wales?
Yet they all speak the same language.
Therefore logic would dictate that a man is an Arab, if he comes from Arabia - Capish?
But it's a good lesson for you though. When you start exposing them, the Albinos are likely to throw all manner of nonsense sh1t at you.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: dana marniche
I have to agree with Osirion on this. Morroco has the Largest Berber population in all of North Africa. Now what we can say is that Berbers in NA are mixed with Europeans and they still have an East African origin. We know the Siwa the farthest east of Berbers are related to other African and we should know that berbers in the Sahel are really where you will find the least unmixed Berbers. Of course you know all this so what I have said is for those who read, but don't post.
Peace
Peace, King - ur response to me implies that there was something I didn't agree with, and i have not the slightest idea why?
My question to Mazigh has not been answered. I was not being sarcastic. I am seriously wondering to which people Riffians the Guelia belong. And now, however, because of the AfroNazi ignorance and hatred displayed by certain people on this posting, I will not be returning to it and would suggest that other people of goodwill also leave that haters to their own hateful ends.
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)