Fulani are anything but "indigenous" West Africans linguistically related to the Serere and Wolof -- who likewise speak Atlantic languages of Niger-Congo -- but infused with a Zenaga substratum (Banu Warith).
The development of metal working technology by the 4th century C.E. may have contributed to the rise of the region's first centralized state, the Tekruur kingdom in the Senegal River valley. This kingdom stretched across the central savanna into the Sahara to the north. Tekruur, who was mostly populated by Fulani, had extensive contact with peoples from North Africa, including the Zenaga Berbers.
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^I think he's asking about the Zenaga/Sanhaja Berber ethnic group from which the name Senegal derives and how their language was infused into Pulaar. Not suggesting that you didn't gather this on your own as Old Doctore could have been more direct in his questioning.
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As Sundjata said. Where's the evidence of the Fulani absorbing Zenaga characteristics, linguistically? I tried to find some background information on your statement on my own, but I could hardly find anything reliable. Therefore why I'm asking you, and if you may go into more detail with regards to your statement. Genetically speaking I don't see the evidence for it, it would have likely led to the Fulani absorbing Berber influences at the beginning of their ethnogenous... which would have led to the Fulani carrying significant frequencies of typical Berber uniparental lineages. As far as I know, no Fulani has ever been found with y-dna e1b1b1b.
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Don't equate language with y chromosomes for starters. The Banu Warith serve as the Zenaga speaker source of a language infusion or substratum (slight submerged element) into Fulani speech.
Also I'm not so sure Zenaga ethny = Sanhadja confederacy and especially not so sure Senegal derives from Zenaga though at one time I accepted all three to be factual.
* Some European writers claimed to have met Fulani who spoke something other than Pulaar/Fulfulde.
* Some Fulani origin traditions say the first speakers of Pulaar/Fulfulde were offshoots of peoples who obviously spoke some other languages.
* Tekrur was multi-ethnic including Zenaga speakers.
* Banu Warith were citizens of Takrur particularly residing in Tiklasiyin. They are thought to be an inclusive part of the emergent Toucouleur Pulaar speaking ethny that would in time birth the Fulani Fulfulde speaking branch.
* Rather than biological I think the influence may have been linguistic, as stated, if at all. The type of morphological initial consonant mutation in Pulaar/Fulfulde is taken by some to be the same found in Mauritania (home of the Zenaga).
I will add this, the whole thing, a Zenaga substratum in Pulaar/Fulfulde and Banu Warith as Fulani, after critical examination appears quite tenuous and I would be more careful now than to make such a statement as I did earlier when trying to make some sense out of all the items listed above rather than dismissing two of them as lacking replicable falsifiable sources.
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If we all are going to develop this it must be in a thread more appropriately named than "alTakruri."
Doc, can you repost your opening in thread whose title announces it's subject matter where Lioness Sundiata and myself can also transfer our posts.
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Al Takruri Im gonna start a Video Series on African Architecture but I have a question that pertains to another series Im working on, the History of Ta-Seti/Neshi and Debunking the "Black Pharoahs/Nubians are Black Egyptians are Tan Myth"...
Ive been researching the history of the Uha-ka Family. the 12 Dynasty and its relationship toward the 6th Dynasty
I traced it down to a Petrie quote that is currently only availabe on Myra's website..
"Ancestry of Senusert. In the tomb of prince Uah-ka B at Qau, in an inner chamber, is painted a scene of the son of Uah-ka, named Senusert; there is no cartouche. As the Uah-ka family were of about the 4th or 5th dynasty (the name being unknown either in the 11th of the 12th dynasty), this implies that the 12th dynasty Senusert family descended from the Uah-ka family. Here we have, then, a link between the Galla type on the sphinxes and the 12th dynasty. The separate identification of these sphinxes follows further on. The 12th dynasty was undoubtedly descended from Amenemhat, the great vizier of the 11th dynasty. It seems, then, that he married the heiress of the Uah-ka family, as stated in the pseudo-prophecy, "A king shall come from the south whose name is Ameny, son of a Nubian woman." She called her son by the family name Senusert, and he was the founder of the 12th dynasty, according to Manetho. Waka is the god of the Gallas." (Petrie, W.M.F., The Making of Egypt, 1939, p. 126)
Ive Also Tracked down Uha-ka's apperant tomb at qua
anyway my question is in relation to this quote from you...
What to some may seem very ironic is that the name Senwosret comes from the Uahka family. This Theban family can be traced back to the 6th dynasty. At that time they were architects who built temples near Abydos at Qua. That the Uahka were of Nhsyw origins us attested by their burial tombs. The design is unknown in Kmt but common in Kesh. The pharaoh of the famous conquest stele labeling Nhsyw cowards yet fearful of them taking over the land bit by bit was Senwosret III himself of Nhsy ancestry!
1) Were the Uha-ka originally Architects(that would be awesome) any literary sources that can confirm that??
2) Is there any literary or pictorial sources that describe the "Graves attributed to the Uah-Ka" that links them to Ta-Seti.
So far I found info from the "Prophecy of Neferti" and the fact that Amenemhet the Founder of the 12thy Dynasty was from Upper Egyptian/Ta Seti Origin but not Royal Blood.
"He Seems to have risen from humble parents. An Inscription from Karnak records a "God's Father" Senusret a commoner as the father of Amenemhet; his Mother, Nefert come from the Area of Elephantine(Ta-Seti/Nehesi(My Words!!) Amenemhet was thus of Upper Egyptian origin and his religious allegence to the god Amun"-Chronicle of the Pharoahs Peter A. Clayton pg 78
So Im guessing his connection to Uah-ka was through his father Senusret??
But the Petrie quote is confusing me it says that Senusret the Father of Amenemhet was the link to Uha-Ka...
but he(Amenemhet) marries a Heiress of Uha-Ka??
Anyway sorry bout digging up your old quotes its just you(and Myra) seem to be the only ones with info on Uha-Ka and his connection to the 12th Dynasty.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Hmm Intersting Al-Takruri it seems according to Manetho that the 5th Dynasty seems to have originated from Elephantine(Ta-Seti), which is the same place the Mother of Amenemhet Founder of the 12th Dynasty was from
The Fifth Dynasty of Egypt is considered part of the Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt. Manetho writes that these kings ruled from Elephantine, but archeologists have found evidence clearly showing that their palaces were still located at Ineb-hedj ("White Walls") aka Menphis.
Despite the Heliopolitan origin of the dynasty, Manetho maintained that it stemmed from Elephantine, which is difficult to reconcile with the few known facts. -Chronicle of the Pharohs Peter A Clayton Pg. 60
We believe that Unas probably pursued a policy of diplomatic contact both with Byblos and Nubia. He also apparently was also responsible for building activities at Elephantine near modern Aswan, as well as Saqqara.
I wonder if this has anything to do with Uah-ka and the 12th Dynasty origin(Amenemhet's Elephantine Mother)
Surely Manetho knew what he was writing and based it off of varifiable info...
Will have to look into this..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Al Takruri Im gonna start a Video Series on African Architecture but I have a question that pertains to another series Im working on, the History of Ta-Seti/Neshi and Debunking the "Black Pharoahs/Nubians are Black Egyptians are Tan Myth"...
I don't go for this debunking stuff. To debunk means to ridicule. Also there's no need to refute any tan myth. I'm willing to assist if you present this proactively as a document on Wawat and Kush but not as knee jerk reaction to Foe #7 or anybody else. Just present the material forthright for what it is not as a rebuttal. Doing that keeps you on the defensive. You can't win at chess or even physical games by playing defense. You must play offense. That's what keeps one ahead in the game.
You have to decide if your goal is following after naysayers or presenting positive history for those interested in it, especially the youth and future generations of Afrikans who need historiography that stands on its own legs.
In a sense, "myth busting" keeps the myths alive and emphasizes them over the facts. By not mentioning them at all they are out of sight out of mind. Mentioning them always plants in mind that there just may be something to them since they demand your attention so much. What I mean is you don't have to mention flat earth or layered earth when you teach geography from a globe. The globe speaks for itself.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Ive been researching the history of the Uha-ka Family. the 12 Dynasty and its relationship toward the 6th Dynasty
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: anyway my question is in relation to this quote from you...
What to some may seem very ironic is that the name Senwosret comes from the Uahka family. This Theban family can be traced back to the 6th dynasty. At that time they were architects who built temples near Abydos at Qua. That the Uahka were of Nhsyw origins us attested by their burial tombs. The design is unknown in Kmt but common in Kesh. The pharaoh of the famous conquest stele labeling Nhsyw cowards yet fearful of them taking over the land bit by bit was Senwosret III himself of Nhsy ancestry!
1) Were the Uha-ka originally Architects(that would be awesome) any literary sources that can confirm that??
2) Is there any literary or pictorial sources that describe the "Graves attributed to the Uah-Ka" that links them to Ta-Seti.
So far I found info from the "Prophecy of Neferti" and the fact that Amenemhet the Founder of the 12thy Dynasty was from Upper Egyptian/Ta Seti Origin but not Royal Blood.
"He Seems to have risen from humble parents. An Inscription from Karnak records a "God's Father" Senusret a commoner as the father of Amenemhet; his Mother, Nefert come from the Area of Elephantine(Ta-Seti/Nehesi(My Words!!) Amenemhet was thus of Upper Egyptian origin and his religious allegence to the god Amun"-Chronicle of the Pharoahs Peter A. Clayton pg 78
So Im guessing his connection to Uah-ka was through his father Senusret??
But the Petrie quote is confusing me it says that Senusret the Father of Amenemhet was the link to Uha-Ka...
but he(Amenemhet) marries a Heiress of Uha-Ka??
Anyway sorry bout digging up your old quotes its just you(and Myra) seem to be the only ones with info on Uha-Ka and his connection to the 12th Dynasty.
You will have to carefully analyse and make your own synthesis on the givens to arrive at what you can then best see as to what the facts are and state them.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Hmm Intersting Al-Takruri it seems according to Manetho that the 5th Dynasty seems to have originated from Elephantine(Ta-Seti), which is the same place the Mother of Amenemhet Founder of the 12th Dynasty was from
. . .
I wonder if this has anything to do with Uah-ka and the 12th Dynasty origin(Amenemhet's Elephantine Mother)
Was she? Also, be sure to trace both sides for their ultimate origins at a particular region or state. You just may find places way further south, and I mean way way way further south than TaSeti.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I agree, my whole goal is to shed light on the relationship between Ta-seti(Nehesi) and Km.t. This relationship goes back to the first dynasties and is very complex. My goal is to teach and shed light rather than debate.
Advice well taken!!
I don't go for this debunking stuff. To debunk means to ridicule. Also there's no need to refute any tan myth. I'm willing to assist if you present this proactively as a document on Wawat and Kush but not as knee jerk reaction to Foe #7 or anybody else. Just present the material forthright for what it is not as a rebuttal. Doing that keeps you on the defense. You can't win at chess or even physical games by playing defense. You must play offense. That's what keeps one ahead in the game.
You have to decide if your goal is following after naysayers or presenting positive history for those interested in it especially the youth and future generations of Afrikans who need historiography that stands on its own legs.
In a sense, "myth busting" keeps the myths alive and emphasizes them over the facts. By not mentioning them at all they are out of sight out of mind. Mentioning them always plants in mind that there just may be something to them since they demand your attention so much. What I mean is you don't have to mention flat earth or layered earth when you teach geography from a globe. The globe speaks for itself.
You will have to carefully analyse and make your own synthesis on the givens to arrive at what you can then best see as to what the facts are
Def. man, We have connections between Elaphantine with the 5th Dynasty and later with the Founder of the 12th Dynasty. Both Manetho and Petrie as testify to this connection.
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