^ use as reference
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Don't equate language with y chromosomes for starters. The Banu Warith serve as the Zenaga speaker source of a language infusion or substratum (slight submerged element) into Fulani speech.
Also I'm not so sure Zenaga ethny = Sanhadja confederacy and especially not so sure Senegal derives from Zenaga though at one time I accepted all three to be factual.
* Some European writers claimed to have met Fulani who spoke something other than Pulaar/Fulfulde.
* Some Fulani origin traditions say the first speakers of Pulaar/Fulfulde were offshoots of peoples who obviously spoke some other languages.
* Tekrur was multi-ethnic including Zenaga speakers.
* Banu Warith were citizens of Takrur particularly residing in Tiklasiyin. They are thought to be an inclusive part of the emergent Toucouleur Pulaar speaking ethny that would in time birth the Fulani Fulfulde speaking branch.
* Rather than biological I think the influence may have been linguistic, as stated, if at all. The type of morphological initial consonant mutation in Pulaar/Fulfulde is taken by some to be the same found in Mauritania (home of the Zenaga).
I will add this, the whole thing, a Zenaga substratum in Pulaar/Fulfulde and Banu Warith as Fulani, after critical examination appears quite tenuous and I would be more careful now than to make such a statement as I did earlier when trying to make some sense out of all the items listed above rather than dismissing two of them as lacking replicable falsifiable sources.
Of course I don't equate linguistics with genetics, but these two subjects often correlate. My statement still stands, genetically, there's no evidence that the Zenaga somehow played a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group. As attested by their uniparental markers.
* Early European writers claimed a lot of things. Who are these European writers? Can you provide EgyptSearch with some further details about these European writers and their aforementioned claims?
* Again, more details please... lets not be to vague.
*. Takrur encompassed a territory that largely overlapped with the much more dominant Ghanian Empire, they were chronologically parallel to one another.
^ As you can see, the Ghanian Empire, not the Takrur Kingdom, likely encompassed a region that included these expanding Moroccan derived nomads.
If I'm correct, the Zenaga, i.e. the ancestors of the contemporary Sahrawis or "Moorish" ethnicity, were largely confined to northern Mauritania and the Western Sahara up until recently as more and more of them abandoned nomadism and started settling in the much more inhabitable southern Mauritanian region (all in the past 100 years). Contemporary nomadic segments of the Sahrawis are largely confined to northernmost Mauritania in the vicinity of the Western Sahara, which leads to the logical conclusion that this is where the majority of the Zenaga or more ancient Sahrawi population resided. While the Fulani in Mauritania are geographically restricted to the southern fraction of Mauritania, bordering Senegal and Mali.
* Your going to have to locate Tiklasiyin for me. Are there any other sources that support such a inclusion of the Zenaga into the Takrur political unit? I doubt that they would've been numerically significant in southern Mauritania during much of their history in West Africa, they would've have also had to pass through Ghana before entering Takrur.
I just want to start a discussion on the subject. I hope I don't sound hostile or dismissive.
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
alTakruri...
How did you come to the conclusion that Burdama = Tuareg and Boroma = Fulani with regards to the GASSIRE'S LUTE epic from Ancient Ghana? I just check online and there does seem to be sources that claim the same thing. But when have the Fulani ever been subjected to the Tuareg, and when have the Tuareg ever played such an intimate role in Ghanian history.
Wouldn't Burdama be more fitting to the Zenaga/Sahrawis, and Boroma with the Bafours/Haratin?
1. We know that the Bafours/Haratin were gradually dominated by the incoming Moroccan Zenaga/Sahrawis.
2. ^ These two ethnicities played an intimate role in the history of Ancient Ghana.
3. It geographically makes sense.
^ I can see a correlation with the Boroma and the Fulani, but only because the Fulani/Takrur were known to have come into conflict with Ghana. I can also see a correlation with the Burdama and the Almoravids. And since the Almoravids included both the Zenaga and Tuareg under the Sanhaja confederate, that would make more sense.
How old is this epic tale?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'll start by saying the very title of the thread is blowing what I wrote way out of proportion by beefing up what I attributed at best as nothing more than shared consonant mutation into outright influence.
Why do you do this?
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'll start by saying the very title of the thread is blowing what I wrote way out of proportion by beefing up what I attributed at best as nothing more than shared consonant mutation into outright influence.
Why do you do this?
I'll fix it, my bad
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
Zenaga, Znaga, Sanhadja, Sanhaja is a variation of the word Zanj meaning black. The Zenaga are "the wearers of braids".
From all I have read of the origin of the Fullah in English and French, I am completely convinced that they are a cross between ancient Hebrew Israelite/Shepherd Kings and Mandinka-like women.
So, their ancient religion is a cross between a proto-Judaism and West African religion as they a physically a mix. This is especially true of the Red Fulani, the Mbororo.
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
I think it is better to say that there is Berber influence on the Wolof and Bambara languages. Israelite artifacts have been found in the ruins of the old Djolof Kingdom, not Tekruur.
The ruins of the Senegal/Gambian stone circle complex are partially Tuareg/Znaga in origin.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I did nothing more here than transcribe Frobenius, so you need to ask him your questions or failing that find a jeli who does the Dausi and ask him.
However it was reported by Wilson-Haffenden that Shuwalbe chide their women who marry Tamasheq as returning to the days when they were slaves to the "Beriberi."
You do know that today there are some Fulani who are slaves to Tuareg just as there are Tuareg who are enslaved by Fulani. I guess with the new laws in Niger and Mali clients would be the proper term.
Other details on specifics to your post coming later.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: alTakruri...
How did you come to the conclusion that Burdama = Tuareg and Boroma = Fulani with regards to the GASSIRE'S LUTE epic from Ancient Ghana? I just check online and there does seem to be sources that claim the same thing. But when have the Fulani ever been subjected to the Tuareg, and when have the Tuareg ever played such an intimate role in Ghanian history.
Wouldn't Burdama be more fitting to the Zenaga/Sahrawis, and Boroma with the Bafours/Haratin?
1. We know that the Bafours/Haratin were gradually dominated by the incoming Moroccan Zenaga/Sahrawis.
2. ^ These two ethnicities played an intimate role in the history of Ancient Ghana.
3. It geographically makes sense.
^ I can see a correlation with the Boroma and the Fulani, but only because the Fulani/Takrur were known to have come into conflict with Ghana. I can also see a correlation with the Burdama and the Almoravids. And since the Almoravids included both the Zenaga and Tuareg under the Sanhaja confederate, that would make more sense.
How old is this epic tale?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is one of the two items I would now dismiss. You do see where I wrote of retracting tenuous claims?
I no longer own my personal extensive library of African materials so not having all the books at hand I cannot rattle off the names of the one or two writers making that claim. For some reason it seems like something from Barth, Clapperton, or Park. Not that it matters because I don't recall whoever it was giving any details other than that one sentence statement.
Should I ever run across the statement again I will be sure to post it here.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: * Early European writers claimed a lot of things. Who are these European writers? Can you provide EgyptSearch with some further details about these European writers and their aforementioned claims?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You really feel that if Zenaga and Fulani share just one simple element of language, morphological initial consonent mutation, of a type Fulani do not share with other Atlantic languages that also do have consonant mutations, that that means Zenaga influence rather than a minor substratum (a submerged linguistic element)?
If so, you're giving Zenaga a credit I never did. I mean out of the hundreds and hundreds of elements a language has this one thing constitutes something as weighty as influence?
I don't even know that it's factual. It's just something I came across while trying to see what earlier Euro writers may have misconstrued, a fault I've already confessed and see as a tenuous claim at best that's so far is not replicable.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
So? Who ever made that claim? Crucial role? Please.
Can you produce any statement I made for Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group?
I don't mind discussing things but ask questions before you go putting words in my mouth.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: My statement still stands, genetically, there's no evidence that the Zenaga somehow played a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group. As attested by their uniparental markers.
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
@ alTakruri
Again, I didn't mean to sound hostile; I simply thought your statements were very interesting and deserved further attention. Thanks for answering my questions, I'm going to look over some of the references you mentioned to see if I can find more information on the subject.
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: So? Who ever made that claim? Crucial role? Please.
Can you produce any statement I made for Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group?
I don't mind discussing things but ask questions before you go putting words in my mouth.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: My statement still stands, genetically, there's no evidence that the Zenaga somehow played a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group. As attested by their uniparental markers.
I took the below quote as an attempt on your part of the Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani people.
"Banu Warith were citizens of Takrur particularly residing in Tiklasiyin. They are thought to be an inclusive part of the emergent Toucouleur Pulaar speaking ethny that would in time birth the Fulani Fulfulde speaking branch."
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'm not even bothering to look at your maps of Old Ghana.
We have Arabic records close to the time period that tell us some of Tekrur's cities and who were living in them.
Speculation on Moroccan nomads and Old Ghana cannot overturn the facts ibn Abi Zar and al~Bakri left us, that the Banu Warith lived in Tataklasin/Bankalabin.
This is not a "religulous" or legendary matter like the Arab posse has been posting this past year or so. This is ethnology by reporters who lived close to the era under consideration not trying to push a book or sell an identity ideology onto Black Americans who so unfortunately have mostly lost the keys to their past.
Ibn Azari tells us that the Lamtuna and Goddala lived in the vicinity of the sea and that no other tribes stood between the Banu Warith and the Lamtuna&Goddala.
Al~Idrisi also wrote that merchants from the Farthest West, i.e., Morocco, were into import/export business with Tekrur.
Tekrur was a multi-ethnic nation with Soninke, Malinke, Serere, Wolof, Banu Warith and other Sanhadja as well as Zenata among its citizenry.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: * Tekrur was multi-ethnic including Zenaga speakers.
* Banu Warith were citizens of Takrur particularly residing in Tiklasiyin. They are thought to be an inclusive part of the emergent Toucouleur Pulaar speaking ethny that would in time birth the Fulani Fulfulde speaking branch.
*. Takrur encompassed a territory that largely overlapped with the much more dominant Ghanian Empire, they were chronologically parallel to one another.
^ As you can see, the Ghanian Empire, not the Takrur Kingdom, likely encompassed a region that included these expanding Moroccan derived nomads.
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] However it was reported by Wilson-Haffenden that Shuwalbe chide their women who marry Tamasheq as returning to the days when they were slaves to the "Beriberi."
You do know that today there are some Fulani who are slaves to Tuareg just as there are Tuareg who are enslaved by Fulani. I guess with the new laws in Niger and Mali clients would be the proper term.
My mothers a Songhai from northern Mali and my fathers a Tuareg from southern Algeria, and my girlfriend happens to be half Fulani... and I ever heard of the Fulani being enslaved by the Fulani. I'm doubting the use of the term "Berber" or "Beriberi" to describe Tuaregs by the Fulani.
When did you hear that? The enslaved Tuareg population are first of all rather small, and secondly do not belong to any other ethnicity. The "éklan" is the former slave class, and they are most definitely of Songhai descent... just as the Haratin are of Mande descent; since these two groups represented the most northerly and dominant West African populations, forming the indigenous population of southern Morocco, the Western Sahara, and Mauritania with regard to the Mande and southern Algeria and northern Mali with regard to the Songhai. These groups initially resisted the Berber expansions, but eventually were absorbed; since they were agriculturists and a conquered people, they were forced into bondage in the largely nomadic culture. The Fulani aren't known to have slaves, at least not as much as the other groups in the region like the Mande, Songhai, and Hausa; especially not the Nigerian Wodaabe, the only Fulani sub-group to maintain any significant amount of contact with the Tuareg.
You see a lot of Tuareg men marrying Songhai women, but it's rare to see Tuareg men marry Fulani women... the Fulani are too isolated to be honest.
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] Ibn Azari tells us that the Lamtuna and Goddala lived in the vicinity of the sea and that no other tribes stood between the Banu Warith and the Lamtuna&Goddala.
Interesting. The Fulani are usually more inland towards the direction of Mali. NK speakers along the southern coastal region are almost always Wolof, while those along the northern coastal region are usually Berberized Mande populations, i.e. Haratin.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You should not be so defensive as to read into a writing something of what is not there. Why do make Banu Warith more important than all the other tribes and ethnies of Takrur?
That is something you have to deal with why you make Zenaga more important than Soninke, Malinke, Wolof and especially the Serere where the major elements of Pulaar/Fulfulde originate.
Along with the "Taurad" all these peoples are part of the blend that went to make today's "Toucouleur," Soninke, Malinke, Wolof, Serere, and Zenaga, or at least that's what socially true though not necessarily genetic scientific fact.
Why you make the one group perceived as "white" to be so much more of crucial importance to the "black" groups is a mentality you must sort. I have no such issues.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: So? Who ever made that claim? Crucial role? Please.
Can you produce any statement I made for Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group?
I don't mind discussing things but ask questions before you go putting words in my mouth.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: My statement still stands, genetically, there's no evidence that the Zenaga somehow played a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group. As attested by their uniparental markers.
I took the below quote as an attempt on your part of the Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani people.
"Banu Warith were citizens of Takrur particularly residing in Tiklasiyin. They are thought to be an inclusive part of the emergent Toucouleur Pulaar speaking ethny that would in time birth the Fulani Fulfulde speaking branch."
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote: Tekrur was a multi-ethnic nation with Soninke, Malinke, Serere, Wolof, Banu Warith and other Sanhadja as well as Zenata among its citizenry.
I'm sure it was, like any other powerful political entity. But it still doesn't debunk the fact that the Mauritanian Berber population up until recently was largely restricted to northern Mauritania and the Western Sahara. Most of them only recently started immigrating southwards and settling in the urban communities established by the French. Reason for why many of the country's Niger-Kordofanian population (70,000) were deported from Mauritania to Senegal in the mid-90's, due to ethnic conflicts.
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You should not be so defensive as to read into a writing something of what is not there. Why do make Banu Warith more important than all the other tribes and ethnies of Takrur?
That is something you have to deal with why you make Zenaga more important than Soninke, Malinke, Wolof and especially the Serere where the major elements of Pulaar/Fulfulde originate.
Along with the "Taurad" all these peoples are part of the blend that went to make today's "Toucouleur," Soninke, Malinke, Wolof, Serere, and Zenaga, or at least that's what socially true though not necessarily genetic scientific fact.
Why you make the one group perceived as "white" to be so much more of crucial importance to the "black" groups is a mentality you must sort. I have no such issues.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: So? Who ever made that claim? Crucial role? Please.
Can you produce any statement I made for Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group?
I don't mind discussing things but ask questions before you go putting words in my mouth.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: My statement still stands, genetically, there's no evidence that the Zenaga somehow played a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group. As attested by their uniparental markers.
I took the below quote as an attempt on your part of the Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani people.
"Banu Warith were citizens of Takrur particularly residing in Tiklasiyin. They are thought to be an inclusive part of the emergent Toucouleur Pulaar speaking ethny that would in time birth the Fulani Fulfulde speaking branch."
Come on know, don't make this into something that isn't.
The Toucouleur are not exactly "Fulani". Cultrually, they're intermediate between the dominant Fulani, Wolof, Serer, and Mande ethnicities... even though most of them only recognize Fulani and Serer ancestry.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Doc
Did you read the first Fulani Madness thread pages or other threads like Rock art, tomb paintings, and Fulani clothes or The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani, some of the few Fulani topic threads I contributed to?
I ask because you seem have no idea what I hold to in regards to Fulani, who they are, what their origins.
For the most part I sit out the hubbub on Fulani so not to be accused of enthusiasm or subjective bias, but there are times when I must break silence.
Sometimes I make that choice poorly.
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
I'm quite aware, reason for why I asked you. Again, I'm not trying to be hostile.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'm about to give up here. You're mixing up people, places, and timelines. You did it above in reference to clients who could not ever be iklan and you're doing it below like ibnAzari of 1312 should know today's situation. Haalaaji!
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] Ibn Azari tells us that the Lamtuna and Goddala lived in the vicinity of the sea and that no other tribes stood between the Banu Warith and the Lamtuna&Goddala.
Interesting. The Fulani are usually more inland towards the direction of Mali. NK speakers along the southern coastal region are almost always Wolof, while those along the northern coastal region are usually Berberized Mande populations, i.e. Haratin.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You're impossible.
The Fulani ethny derives from the haalPulaaren who are improperly called Toucouleur in books.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You should not be so defensive as to read into a writing something of what is not there. Why do make Banu Warith more important than all the other tribes and ethnies of Takrur?
That is something you have to deal with why you make Zenaga more important than Soninke, Malinke, Wolof and especially the Serere where the major elements of Pulaar/Fulfulde originate.
Along with the "Taurad" all these peoples are part of the blend that went to make today's "Toucouleur," Soninke, Malinke, Wolof, Serere, and Zenaga, or at least that's what socially true though not necessarily genetic scientific fact.
Why you make the one group perceived as "white" to be so much more of crucial importance to the "black" groups is a mentality you must sort. I have no such issues.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: So? Who ever made that claim? Crucial role? Please.
Can you produce any statement I made for Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group?
I don't mind discussing things but ask questions before you go putting words in my mouth.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: My statement still stands, genetically, there's no evidence that the Zenaga somehow played a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group. As attested by their uniparental markers.
I took the below quote as an attempt on your part of the Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani people.
"Banu Warith were citizens of Takrur particularly residing in Tiklasiyin. They are thought to be an inclusive part of the emergent Toucouleur Pulaar speaking ethny that would in time birth the Fulani Fulfulde speaking branch."
Come on know, don't make this into something that isn't.
The Toucouleur are not exactly "Fulani". Cultrually, they're intermediate between the dominant Fulani, Wolof, Serer, and Mande ethnicities... even though most of them only recognize Fulani and Serer ancestry.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is a sucker thread and I'm out.
You simply do not know the material and never had an incling of it until now yet you want to refute (not debunk) it.
You need to learn you can't compare 8th-11th century Tekrur with 20th - 21st century Mauritania-Senegal.
More than a thousand years of history have gone down from one until the other but you expect it to be the same in both eras? Something's wrong with your equation.
It's as ludicrous as if injecting Miami Jew snowbirds into a supposedly rational discussion on Florida's Seminole Nation and then claiming debate points behind it.
You are totally ignorant of the history of people and the region at the time period under analysis and so resort to inanity.
Have fun stroking yourself, build a strawman knock him down.
What's next, Lebanese businesses in Senegal to show they've been there since Carthage?
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote: Tekrur was a multi-ethnic nation with Soninke, Malinke, Serere, Wolof, Banu Warith and other Sanhadja as well as Zenata among its citizenry.
I'm sure it was, like any other powerful political entity. But it still doesn't debunk the fact that the Mauritanian Berber population up until recently was largely restricted to northern Mauritania and the Western Sahara. Most of them only recently started immigrating southwards and settling in the urban communities established by the French. Reason for why many of the country's Niger-Kordofanian population (70,000) were deported from Mauritania to Senegal in the mid-90's, due to ethnic conflicts.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
tribes of Libya concerned: Lemtuna, Jedala, Lemta, Tuareg and Zenega All wear the litham
The history and description of Africa: and of the notable things ..., Volume 3 By Leo (Africanus), John Pory
alTakruri is this in your Library?
______________________________________________
Haratins spoke Zenaga language until around the 1850's and have some Zenaga admixture. zenaga are mainly sub-saharan descended genetically (some even wholly so), whereas Mauritanian Arabs (or moors) are a mix of light skinned supra-Saharan and dark skinned sub-Saharan (a good portion of both the lighter/bidhans and darker/haratins being significantly mixed as well, i.e., the genetic contributions go both ways, most aren't just purely one thing).
The term Almoravid is a corruption of the term al-murabit. Most of the Almoravids were Saharan Berber tribes. The main Almoravid were actually Tuaregs,Zenaga,and also Sanhaja.
Almohads were Berbers from the Anti-Atlas area. The Sanhaja are described as mostly dark skinned with a few light ones amongst them.
Posted by Neferet (Member # 17109) on :
Al-Takruri,
Can you explain some of these groups of people to me? You seem to know about them in so called "West Africa".
Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Tunisia
Here are my mother's full genome MTDNA matches/results for my haplogroup L2a1a . I have also done other research, and have found that it is even more matches than this. Including Algerians, Baluchis, Czechs, Slovaks, Gujaratis, and Rajasthanis...which is kind of surprising.
FamilyTree DNA Results:
Haplo Country Comment Match Total L2a Angola Cabinda 1 L2a Angola Mbundu 1 L2a Cameroon Chadic 1 L2a France - 1 L2a Guinea-Bissau Futa-Fula 2 L2a Italy - 2 L2a Mali Bambara 2 L2a Mali Songhai 1 L2a Mozambique - 25 L2a Mozambique Bantu 10 L2a Nigeria - 1 L2a Portugal - 1 L2a Sao Tome and Principe - 2 L2a Sierra Leone Mende 1 L2a Spain - 1 L2a1a Libya Al-Awaynat 2 L2a1a Libya Tuareg 5 L2a1a Libya Western Fezzan 2 L2a1a Mauritania - 5 L2a1a Mozambique Tswa 1 L2a1a Pakistan Makrani 1 L2a1a Tunisia Arab 5 L2a1a Tunisia Berber Chenini-Douiret - 2 L2a1a Tunisia Matmata 2 L2a1a Tunisia Sened - 6 L2a1a Yemen - 25
Posted by awlaadberry (Member # 17426) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: [QB] just as the Haratin are of Mande descent;
Who told you that the Haratin are of Mande descent?
Posted by alurubenson (Member # 12885) on :
PULAAKU Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You're impossible.
The Fulani ethny derives from the haalPulaaren who are improperly called Toucouleur in books.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You should not be so defensive as to read into a writing something of what is not there. Why do make Banu Warith more important than all the other tribes and ethnies of Takrur?
That is something you have to deal with why you make Zenaga more important than Soninke, Malinke, Wolof and especially the Serere where the major elements of Pulaar/Fulfulde originate.
Along with the "Taurad" all these peoples are part of the blend that went to make today's "Toucouleur," Soninke, Malinke, Wolof, Serere, and Zenaga, or at least that's what socially true though not necessarily genetic scientific fact.
Why you make the one group perceived as "white" to be so much more of crucial importance to the "black" groups is a mentality you must sort. I have no such issues.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: So? Who ever made that claim? Crucial role? Please.
Can you produce any statement I made for Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group?
I don't mind discussing things but ask questions before you go putting words in my mouth.
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: My statement still stands, genetically, there's no evidence that the Zenaga somehow played a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani ethnic group. As attested by their uniparental markers.
I took the below quote as an attempt on your part of the Zenaga playing a crucial role in the formation of the Fulani people.
"Banu Warith were citizens of Takrur particularly residing in Tiklasiyin. They are thought to be an inclusive part of the emergent Toucouleur Pulaar speaking ethny that would in time birth the Fulani Fulfulde speaking branch."
Come on know, don't make this into something that isn't.
The Toucouleur are not exactly "Fulani". Cultrually, they're intermediate between the dominant Fulani, Wolof, Serer, and Mande ethnicities... even though most of them only recognize Fulani and Serer ancestry.
Halpulaar simply means "speak-Pulaar" and it implies to people who speak Fula. Both the Toucouleur and "mainstream" Fulani speak the language, but they often see each other as two different ethnicities. The Toucouleur often recognize both Fulani and Serer ancestry, and sometimes even Mande. I've been to Mauritania and Senegal, I know what I'm talking about.
