quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Explain why black Americans have proportionately longer limbs than white Americans if genetics has nothing to do with limb proportions.
I never stated that genetics had nothing to do with it. That's why I put my statement at the opening of my post.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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Not sure what your point is. Limb Lengths ratios are the result of adaption to a hot dry climate, although genetics also plays a part.
The following I have already presented to you, and explains BOTH:
[QB]
quote:Originally posted by Simply Girl: Egyptian limb lengths don't necessarily have anything to do with people coming up from the south
Of course it does, if you will notice:
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass:
Egyptian body size and proportions: ecogeographic patterns in a mid-latitude population. MICHELLE H. RAXTER. Department of Anthropology, University of South Florida. Ecogeographic patterning in body size and proportions can provide important information about adaptation and population movements. This study investigated patterns in body size and proportions in a mid-latitude population. Ancient Egyptians occupied a middle latitude region at 31-21 o North. It was predicted that Egyptians would be intermediate between higher and lower latitude populations in body size and limb length ratios. The skeletal sample consisted of 492 males and 535 females, all adults from the Predynastic, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom and Roman-Byzantine periods, a time spanning c. 5500 BCE – 600 CE. Egyptians were analyzed regionally by dividing the sample into northern and southern groups, as well as by comparison to Nubian groups. Egyptians were also assessed with respect to other populations in the world using anthropometrics from modern populations compiled by Ruff (1994) and skeletal measures from archaeologically-derived samples from Holliday (1995). Analysis of variance and Tukey’s post-hoc test were used to analyze differences among groups, while bivariate scatters were used to assess changes in measures with latitude. Results showed that region had no significant effect on male brachial index, however region did have a significant effect on female brachial index and on both male and female crural indices (p 5 \ 0.05). Nubians possessed slightly higher indices compared to ancient Egyptians. Ancient Egyptian limb length indices were more characteristic of tropical populations. Other indices such as body mass/stature and bi-iliac breadth/stature to stature were intermediate between higher latitude and lower latitude populations.
1)The authors predicted that the Egyptians would have intermediate limb-length ratios because Egypt is a sub-tropical environment.
2)The results do NOT support the Egyptians having intermediate body proportions
3)They had tropical limb length ratios.
What does this mean? This means that the ancient Egyptians were descended from recent migrants from a tropical place. Genetic studies also confirm this:
"Our findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome markers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber communities is the subhaplogroup E1b1b1b (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001)"
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations Frigi et al., (2010)
Underhill et al., 2001:
"The expansion of Neolithic farmers from the Middle East into Europe is also represented in the NRY data, although suggesting a relatively localized area of impact. As mentioned before in relation to African NRY history, a Mesolithic population carrying Group III lineages with the M35}M215 mutation expanded northwards from sub-Saharan to north Africa and the Levant (Fig. 3g)."
So yes, tropical limb ratios ARE indeed a sign of ancestry from sub-Saharan Africa. How else would you have tropical limb ratios in a supra-Saharan population?
Palaeoenvironment and Holocene land use of Djara, Western Desert of Egypt:
"Abstract The results of the interdisciplinary project ACACIA support the assumption of a more humid climate at Djara, on the Egyptian Limestone Plateau, which is a hyper-arid desert today, during the early and mid-Holocene. The ancient plant and animal inventories give new impetus for the suggestion of an interfingering of two climatic regimes, the winter rains from the north and west and the summer monsoonal rains from the south, on the latitude of Djara. A playa sediment sequence, the composition of plant and animal taxa as well as the reconstructed settlement patterns indicate a semi-arid climate with alternating more humid and drier conditions. The concentration of prehistoric sites in the Djara depression points to locally favourable conditions in contrast to the surrounding plateau surface. The widespread catchment and a distinct system of palaeochannels offered fresh water over a period of time due to the run-off from the plateau surface after rain events. Although the ecological conditions were better during the Holocene humid phase than they are today, a sedentary way of life was improbable. The hydrological constraints require altogether highly mobile subsistence strategies. Shells of the Nile bivalve Aspatharia sp (Spathopsis sp.) give evidence for contacts between Djara and the Nile Valley, which remains beside the Egyptian oases an important retreat area with perennially available water. The decrease of radiocarbon dates and related archaeological sites around 6300 BP (c. 5300 cal BC) indicate the depopulation of the Djara region as a consequence of the drying trend. While the drop off of the 14C-dates can also be observed in other desert research areas of the ACACIA-project, we date the end of the Holocene humid phase about 300 years earlier than previously suggested."
"2.1. Climate Today, the Western Desert of Egypt is part of the hyperarid Eastern Sahara (UNESCO, 1977) and belongs to the subtropical desert climate zone (Griffiths, 1987). High temperatures, low humidity and strong winds cause high potential evaporation rates in excess of 5000mm per year (Griffiths, 1972; Haynes 1982; Darius, 1989). In contrast, the interpolated annual precipitation sum is less than 5mm with sparse rain on only 1–5 days per year on average (New et al., 1999). Palaeoenvironmental observations have shown that the regional climate during the Holocene differed from the present situation (e.g. Ritchie et al., 1985; Kutzbach and Liu, 1997; Pachur and Hoelzmann, 2000). Due to oscillations in the Earth’s orbit, summer insolation in the Northern Hemisphere rose to peak levels approximately 8% higher than today 11,000 years ago (Berger and Loutre, 1991; deMenocal et al., 2000; Tuenter et al., 2003). The insolation created an enhanced monsoonal summer precipitation in North Africa during the early and mid-Holocene (Holocene humid phase or humid optimum). Other studies postulate both an enhanced summer precipitation from the south, and increased mediterranean winter rains from the west and the north due to stronger westerlies with cyclonic disturbances, as well as an increase in the summer monsoonal rain (Nicholson and Flohn, 1980; Geb, 2000). On the basis of archaeobotanical remains from the Great Sand Sea and the Abu Ballas area Neumann (1989a, b) suggests a maximum precipitation amount of 100mm for the mid-Holocene humid phase. In summary, a generally arid environment with short humid intermediate stages can be deduced (e.g. Bubenzer and Hilgers, 2003)."
You do NOT get tropical body plans in that type of an environment Simple Girl Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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The study I have provided here proves that limb length is not necessarily determined by genetics only. It can also be determined in living individuals by the temperature of the enviroment in which they were raised. Read the study. I have school and need the sleep.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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Basically, gene flow does account for tropical limb ratios observed in some populations. In Egypt's case, gene flow/migration accounted for their limb length ratios
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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Simple-minded, you are missing the point. The body and limb-proportions of the ancient Egyptians is not reflective of a pattern expected of non-tropical or temperate latitudes. It is like having a population of "white" folks in the equatorial region. You'd have to realize that such a population in such a zone, would have had to have come about by way of migration from elsewhere. In other words, there is a genetic component to their origins outside of the equatorial region. These are things you should be able to deduce without guidance.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Notice that all the experiments done in the study were performed on mice instead of humans.
Generally experiments done to mice can also apply to humans. That's the main reason they use mice. The cellular structure between mice and humans is very similar.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: The study I have provided here proves that limb length is not necessarily determined by genetics only. It can also be determined in living individuals by the temperature of the enviroment in which they were raised. Read the study. I have school and need the sleep.
We've been through this many times on ES. Limb proportion includes diet and environment and the ability to metabolize calcium. Not only are African bones longer, but denser (up to 40%) than whites where the parents of both consumed the equivalent diets. Black woman, due to their high melanin concentrations, acquire/store/utilize calcium at higher levels than white women.
Posts: 2403 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:some had white features with black arm lenghts
We've shown peer reviewed research proving they had "tropical limb proportions", now show us a peer reviewed paper showing that "some had white features with black arm lengths" (name one person living who has such an odd mosaic). If admixture would have worked on the facial features it would have also worked on skin color and the body plan. Only a clueless amateur would paste random statues and simply declare that the person it represents was "white-looking" based on absolutely nothing but their own bias and wishful thinking. How does your science of picture spamming compare with directly measuring mummies?
quote:you're telling me any of yall have a drop of Egyptian ancestry anyway? what's the point
No, we are telling you the Egyptians had/have African ancestry, that's the point and limb ratios are proof of that. Why does the point need to be anymore profound than that?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: We've shown peer reviewed research proving they had "tropical limb proportions",
your "they" are a few certain remains in a few specific areas. I gave you the Ramesses II, he didn't have tropical limb ratios. What's up with that? He's the most famous Pharaoh of all time.
What do you mean he's "African" You got whites in South Africa that are African. What "African" is a race now?
they were African, we are African, Wow we must be pyramid geniuses. Egypt influenced Greece. Oh is that why we want to be them? Because North Africa is closer to Europe. Oh I see, get away from the West and try to get to that Africa place closest to leave still can't deal with the direct ancestry
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: We've shown peer reviewed research proving they had "tropical limb proportions",
your "they" are a few certain remains in a few specific areas.
What are you talking about? Zakrzewski and Raxter evaluated Egyptians from all periods and sub-regions, and Raxter for instance had over 1000 people in his combined sample! Stop speaking nonsense all the time.
quote:I gave you the Ramesses II, he didn't have tropical limb ratios. What's up with that? He's the most famous Pharaoh of all time.
Ramses II was taller than other pharaohs and are you serious anyways? 1 vs 1000? Who cares about him you hypocrite? Didn't you just criticize me for what you CLAIMED was a conclusion based on only a "few" remains? lol
quote:What do you mean he's "African" You got whites in South Africa that are African.
Those whites don't have African limb proportions. By African, I mean biologically African, in that their ethnogenesis and present biological traits/variants emerged in Africa. Used in same way when referring to African-Americans, who are called African-American, even though they have no cultural or geographic ties to the continent (not a part of any 'race', but "biologically African" in origin).
quote:they were African, we are African, Wow we must be pyramid geniuses. Egypt influenced Greece. Oh is that why we want to be them? Because North Africa is closer to Europe. Oh I see, get away from the West and try to get to that Africa place closest to leave still can't deal with the direct ancestry
Instead of going off on tangents and angry political rants how about just trying to address the facts? Thanks.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Actually it was proven in another thread that there is no such study saying Ramses did NOT have tropical limb proportions only that certain indices (I believe crural) were shorter compared to other pharaohs. This dos NOT mean overall he had no tropical porportions! LMAO Also, what does one mean by "white features" if features like narrow faces and noses are found among non-whites like many blacks in Africa for instance how are such features considered "white"?? Indeed we are dealing with a desperate dummy. Speaking of which...
The Simpleton author of this thread is also a desperate dummy. She speaks of adaptation vs. genetics as if the two are seperate! Individuals do not adapt POPULATIONS do! And adaptation is the result of GENETICS. Apparently she needs to read this:
Of course we are dealing with a girl who can't even properly comprehend a single paragraph so what good can a book do her?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:your "they" are a few certain remains in a few specific areas. I gave you the Ramesses II, he didn't have tropical limb ratios. What's up with that? He's the most famous Pharaoh of all time.
LOL! According to...? Look at the Pharaoh sample in Raxter et al., 2007:
WITH Ramses II, the values went UP.
"While ancient Egyptians have similar intralimb proportions to those of US blacks, limb length to stature proportions of Egyptians are intermediate between those of blacks and whites. There is no evidence for significant temporal or class related variation among ancient Egyptians in linear body proportions. Thus, the new equations may be broadly applicable to Egyptian archaeological samples"- Raxter et al., 2007
Measures for the pharaohs may have been affected by the Robins method used, if you will notice:
"Previously estimated intralimb indices for ancient Egyptians are generally quite similar to ours, and are more similar to US Blacks than to US Whites. The only exception is Robins and Shute's (1983) crural indices for Egyptian Pharaohs, which are lower, although these were derived using a different technique--radiography rather than direct measurement--which could account for the difference (alternatively, Pharaohs may have had slightly different body proportions than other Egyptians" - Raxter et al.
quote:What do you mean he's "African" You got whites in South Africa that are African. What "African" is a race now?
Whites in southern Africa are recent immigrants and are of European descent. Not African like the Egyptians
quote:they were African, we are African, Wow we must be pyramid geniuses. Egypt influenced Greece. Oh is that why we want to be them? Because North Africa is closer to Europe. Oh I see, get away from the West and try to get to that Africa place closest to leave still can't deal with the direct ancestry
^ Actually it was proven in another thread that there is no such study saying Ramses did NOT have tropical limb proportions only that certain indices (I believe crural) were shorter compared to other pharaohs. This dos NOT mean overall he had no tropical porportions!
In addition to that, if we recall the following, then Rameses II's limb proportions would not have been directly measured...i.e. "radiography rather than direct measurement".
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Notice that all the experiments done in the study were performed on mice instead of humans.
The effects that different temperatures have applies to mammals in general not just mice. Read the study.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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^ maybe you are closely related to mice but the rest of us aren't and don't think so simplistically.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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LMAO @ the Simpleton Girl. Her poor little mind just cannot grasp this basic FACT of biology.
Does she mean to tell us that individuals can just change their skeletal structure all of a sudden to adapt to a new area?? So if I were take a short limb Inuit from Siberia and leave in equatorial Africa for a decade, he'll have limb lengths like a Sudanese??! LOL
This is the nonsense that I'm talking about. Evolutionary adaptation involves populations NOT individuals and it takes a long time depending on the adaptation. Skeletal structure for example takes generations even tens perhaps thousands of years. All humans were tropically adapted as they originally were from tropical Africa. As humans migrated, some left Africa for Eurasia. Those Eurasians who remained in the tropics still maintained tropical body plans and those that ventured farther north into colder latitudes slowly began to lose them.
If Egyptians by and large show a mean of extreme tropical builds it must mean they have recent ancestry from further south as Egypt is in the subtropics. Even populations adapted to subtropical North Africa would be no different in body plan to Khoisan of Southern Africa who are also adapted to subtropical areas. Either way you cut it, there is NO cold adaptation what so ever.
Simpleton is finished.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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In fact the study I presented seriously puts into question your claim that the Egyptians had to come from a tropical enviroment, and had to have a genetic basis for elongated limbs.
The term 'tropically' is misapplied to the actual reason limbs become elongated. The only thing necessary is high temperatures. So no the Egyptians did not have to be tropically adapted. Do you understand this? Do you not comprehend what the study is saying? Hello out there?
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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^^I cannot understand why you cannot comprehend my first post in this thread. I already gave you several sources, all of which all state the same thing- i.e., the Egyptians came from further south. Why you choose to ignore my posts, I will never know
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by A Simpleton: In fact the study I presented seriously puts into question your claim that the Egyptians had to come from a tropical enviroment, and had to have a genetic basis for elongated limbs.
LOL How so??!!
quote:The term 'tropically' is misapplied to the actual reason limbs become elongated. The only thing necessary is high temperatures. So no the Egyptians did not have to be tropically adapted. Do you understand this? Do you not comprehend what the study is saying? Hello out there?
Okay, and what other natural environment other than a tropical one would high temperatures occur you f*cking idiot??! LMAO
Yes. We already know this based on the biological principle of [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen's_rule]Allen's rule[/url]! Limb length growth is related to temperature and such growth has a genetic basis you idiot! We know this, but how does this refute the FACT that ancient Egyptian population origins lie in the tropics where the temperature is extremely HIGH and thus extremely elongated limbs??!
It's sad you don't realize how dumb you are. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You are the biggest idiot on this forum to think that high temperatures exist only in the tropical part of Africa. The surface temperatures of the Sahara in which Egypt is a part sometimes reaches 130 degrees you dimwit.
It is close to the surface temperature that humans are going to experience the most.
Your mother must have dropped you on your thimble sized head as a baby.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by A Simpleton: You are the biggest idiot on this forum to think that high temperatures exist only in the tropical part of Africa. The surface temperatures of the Sahara in which Egypt is a part sometimes reaches 130 degrees you dimwit.
LOL Okay...
First of all, much of the Sahara STILL lies in the tropical part of Africa.
^ Even the southernmost part of Egypt lies in the tropics, you dumbass! Ironically this is the very area where pharoanic civilization developed.
2nd of all, the areas just outside the tropical zone --just north of the tropic of cancer and just south of the tropic of capricorn-- are known as the subtropics.
Of course the subtropics are hot. I never said otherwise, nitwit! It may not be as hot as actual tropical areas but they are still hot.
That's besides the point. The point is that Egyptians were found to have extreme tropical builds i.e. their limb proportions are more pronounced than even some Africans who actually live in the tropics, meaning they must have ancestry from there!
Even if they are indigenous to the subtropics, here is another African population indigenous to the Subtropics.
San
The San people above are aboriginal to southern Africa which is subtropical and even in the Cape Coast region whose climate is described MEDITERRANEAN.
Therefore subtropical adaptation is still tropical and does not exclude them being black!
quote:It is close to the surface temperature that humans are going to experience the most.
Yes, which is why they are still tropically adapted and NOT cold adapted you twit! LOL
quote:Your mother must have dropped you on your thimble sized head as a baby.
Nope. That must have happened to YOU.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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And please do answer my question. What is the upper limit for being tropically adapted? And while you're at it, what is the lower limit?
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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Yes. As I stated many times this is called Allen's Rule. It is still genetic of course as genetics determines phenotypic features though with influence from the environment.
The fact that population average for Egyptians is tropical only means that they adapted to such an environment!
quote: And please do answer my question. What is the upper limit for being tropically adapted? And while you're at it, what is the lower limit?
The upper limit is extreme or supra as exhibited by Saraho-Sahelian Africans like Malians, Mauritanians, Sudanese, and of course Egyptians etc. The lower limit of tropical adaptation would be peoples adapted to subtropics like the San bushmen or certain aboriginal groups in Eurasia.-- All of whom are still black.
By the way, have you been able to counter anything in my previous post above?? I don't think so! LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yes. As I stated many times this is called Allen's Rule.
Lol for the simpleton who doesn't quite yet understand what she posted is actually in support of limb proportions positively correlating with mean annual temperature.
Read the following, which is where you seem to be trying to make your point from;
^^Simpleton, the above implies Allens rule as noted in the study you linked to, and noted by others in this thread.
If that was your point, I.e., to inform us about Allens rule, well thanks but we already know about it.
Note the following which correlates with your linked report...
quote:Brachial and crural indices of European late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans.
Abstract
Among recent humans brachial and crural indices are positively correlated with mean annual temperature , such that high indices are found in tropical groups.
Now, let this all sink in, then remember that the ancient Egyptians exhibited extreme tropical adaptations. Not merely tropical, but the extreme.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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simple-minded intention here is not to deny any temperature relation to the body plan; in fact, this is what she intents to make as the sole reason for the ancient Egyptian body plan, divorced from ancestry in the tropical regions of the continent.
Earlier when she was asking for "upper" and "lower" limits of "being tropically adapted", I take it that she was referring to the limb ratio indexes. It has to be seen in the context of the upper values and lower values of a particular study at hand, with higher indices generally relating to tropical attitudes and lower indices relating to areas outside of the tropics, whereby the respective cut-off upper and lower average values of the tropical and non-tropical groups should facilitate the deduction of the corresponding "upper" and "lower" limits of "being tropically adapted", but in reference to many studies, tropical limb ratios can range from a upper limit of ca. 85% to a lower limit of ca. 83%.
The ancient Egyptians always cluster with sub-Saharan tropical Africans, be it body and limb proportions or body linearity, and away from non-tropical groups like Europeans. This is a sign of genetic origin in the tropics of Africa.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Does she mean to tell us that individuals can just change their skeletal structure all of a sudden to adapt to a new area?? So if I were take a short limb Inuit from Siberia and leave in equatorial Africa for a decade, he'll have limb lengths like a Sudanese??! LOL
^^This is exactly what I see simpleton implying with this thread. Simpleton can step in and explain if this is not the case.
What's also noteworthy is that the Egyptian archaeological data implicates that there was a hiatus from 10ky-6ky B.C.E.
^This obviously means the Egyptians arrived from elsewhere, but from where?
Being that they were tropically adapted only further confirms to the simplest of minds that their arrival was from the tropics and not any place else.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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^Yup. Either in this thread or another, she even stated that it would be interesting to put a pair of twins in different environments and see how they adapted. She has no understanding of limb-length ratios. It has been demonstrated to her in this thread and others that the ancient Egyptians were descended from sub-Saharan Africans. Yet, she keeps on keeping on being simply a dumbass
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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I think some of you here don't get it or just can't accept it. Allen's rule still applies, but it doesn't need a long term genetic basis for it to apply, as this study proves.
And one only has to be heat-adapted whether in be it a tropical enviroment or otherwise.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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^ And exactly what do YOU mean by "adapted"?? Again, are you suggesting that if I were to take a baby of cold adapted origins like a Nordic or a Siberian and allow that child to grow up in a hot region like the Sahara then his or her limb proportions would end up like those of an Egyptian or Sudanese as in supra or extremely tropical?? Do you think Allen's Rule would apply to the point that an individual's entire proportions would be altered that much?? In other words, are you suggesting that a cold adapted people from outside Africa immigrated to the Nile Valley and then in a matter of a few generations exhibited the limb proportions of tropical Africans??
If you actually believe this, then you are dumber than I thought. LMAOPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Based on the highlighted portion of your statement. It has become apparent that you don't know what you're talking about. Evolution and adaption aren't happening overnight, it takes thousands, hundreds of thousand etc., years for this to happwn. You're not going to get long limb ratios simply by living in a hot dry climate. As pointed out to you herein, the Egyptians were descended from sub-Saharan Africans. Why you choose to ignore the studies provided, I don't know. Egypt is NOT a hot dry climate
quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: I think some of you here don't get it or just can't accept it. Allen's rule still applies, but it doesn't need a long term genetic basis for it to apply, as this study proves.
And one only has to be heat-adapted whether in be it a tropical enviroment or otherwise.
It does need a long term adaptive basis to apply. Or do you not comprehend that?
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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^ LMAO Of course! But just to add, Egypt IS a hot dry climate however it is even hotter and drier in the SOUTH which IS in the tropical zone.
The Simpleton is TOAST and she knows it, and I don't think any modification of her limb lengths and skeletal structure could even help her! LOL
What a dumb b|tch! She must be the type that are being enslaved by the big kuffiyas of the Middle East. No doubt this was how the Fake Egyptian wannabe Sakaliba troll was born! LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^But Egypt doesn't stay hot. That is, it cools down significantly and is sub-tropical. So, if the ancient Egyptians adapted to Egypt's climate as Simple Girl implies, you would expect intermediate limb-length ratios. But as Raxter (2011) pointed out, this was not the case.
Southern Egypt may be within the tropic of cancer, but Egypt still cools down.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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three things to keep in mind about limb indices
1) what is the location/s specifically of the sample?
2) in a given location how many individuals were sampled?
3) in a given location what time period/s were sampled and how many individuals in a given time period?
3) are there differences in limb indices between the general population and certain Pharaoh?
4) If Pharaohs were sampled for limb ratios which Pharaohs in particular were sampled?
If you cannot provide the specification in each of these area you cannot make a strong case and must rely on the opinion statement in a given researcher's conclusions
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: three things to keep in mind about limb indices
1) what is the location/s specifically of the sample?
Why does that matter really? Both lower and upper Egyptians had tropical limb ratios characteristic of tropical populations. Which, as Raxter (2011) pointed out was surprising as Egypt is sub-tropical (Listed in the studies)
quote:2) in a given location how many individuals were sampled?
Listed in the studies.
quote:3) in a given location what time period/s were sampled and how many individuals in a given time period?
Also listed in studies
quote:3) are there differences in limb indices between the general population and certain Pharaoh?
I see you chose to ignore most of the posts in this thread. According to Raxter (2007) there is no evidence for significant variation in linear limb-length ratios, and the new equations may be broadly applicable to new specimens (refer to my earlier post for exact quote). The values for the Pharaohs were lower presumably because they were not taken via direct measurement, but with radiography. They may have had slightly different limb length ratios however.
quote:4) If Pharaohs were sampled for limb ratios which Pharaohs in particular were sampled?
Read the study and the references LOL!
quote:If you cannot provide the specification in each of these area you cannot make a strong case and must rely on the opinion statement in a given researcher's conclusions
Everything you asked are explained in the studies.
quote:lioness productions
^Psycho Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by L': ^But Egypt doesn't stay hot. That is, it cools down significantly and is sub-tropical. So, if the ancient Egyptians adapted to Egypt's climate as Simple Girl implies, you would expect intermediate limb-length ratios. But as Raxter (2011) pointed out, this was not the case.
Southern Egypt may be within the tropic of cancer, but Egypt still cools down.
According to the source that you posted, the ancient Egyptians were basically intermediate in limb length between the two average upper and lower extremes for modern Africans. The upper and lower extremes is even cited by your source.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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Are you unable to read? The source I posted states that they had limbs characteristic of African populations. The only thing "intermediate" is their stature, NOT limb-length ratios. Nowhere in any of my citations is it claimed that they are intermediate in limb ratios. Raxter et al., (2011) proved that wrong. You're too stupid
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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According to the source that you posted, the ancient Egyptians were basically intermediate in limb length between the two average upper and lower extremes for modern Africans. The upper and lower extremes is even cited by your source. [
As pointed out, you got it wrong. You are confusing 'limb proportions' with 'body linearity', which Raxter et al. claim is "somewhat" intermediate between those of American Black and American Whites.
However, to recap...
It has two main branches—a long and linear body build branch that includes the Egyptians, Sub-Saharan Africans (except for the Pygmies), and African-Americans and a second, less linear body form branch that includes the Inuit, Europeans, Euro-Americans, Puebloans, Nubians, and Pygmies. Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)]. - by T.W. Holliday, Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit, 2009.
The Egyptians are mentioned here; reference to "ancient Egyptians"? In any event, what does this mean? The body linearity indirectly implies that the "Egyptians" body mass is in the same range as those of "sub-Saharan" Africans.
[Notice that the pgymies are an outlier amongst the "sub-Saharan" specimens. The likely reason for this, is that their small body stature is likely having an effect on the body mass at some level or another. Otherwise, as posted above, reports on limb-proportions indicate that the pygmy adhere to the tropical pattern.]
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
I only partially had access to the work in question. The samples used are supposed to be part of that very 2009 study, and so, would not have required references to a third party study or an earlier study.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by L': Are you unable to read? The source I posted states that they had limbs characteristic of African populations. The only thing "intermediate" is their stature, NOT limb-length ratios. Nowhere in any of my citations is it claimed that they are intermediate in limb ratios. Raxter et al., (2011) proved that wrong. You're too stupid
No I think it is you that is too stupid. Now I know i'm dealing with at least two thimble-sized heads. Hello out there? I wasn't talking about stature. Read my words carefully and maybe you can comprehend. The keyword isn't stature. Can you guess what the keyword is?
I think your mother also dropped you on your thimble and put a rather large dent in it.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by L': Are you unable to read? The source I posted states that they had limbs characteristic of African populations. The only thing "intermediate" is their stature, NOT limb-length ratios. Nowhere in any of my citations is it claimed that they are intermediate in limb ratios. Raxter et al., (2011) proved that wrong. You're too stupid
No I think it is you that is too stupid. Now I know i'm dealing with at least two thimble-sized heads. Hello out there? I wasn't talking about stature. Read my words carefully and maybe you can comprehend. The keyword isn't stature. Can you guess what the keyword is?
I think your mother also dropped you on your thimble and put a rather large dent in it.
OMFG! LOL! This is too funny. I know perfectly well what you were saying. You claimed that the authors claimed the Egyptians had "intermediate" limb-length ratios, and I responded by saying no, the authors did not say that. They said they were intermediate in stature, NOT limb-length ratios. I know perfectly well what you were saying you idiot, why don't you slowly read my post over again and try to comprehend.
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Also, what does one mean by "white features" if features like narrow faces and noses are found among non-whites like many blacks in Africa for instance how are such features considered "white"?? Indeed we are dealing with a desperate dummy. Speaking of which...
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