Many people nowadays prefer to use the word "ethnicity" in place of the old term "race", but I honestly find the idea of ethnicity to be even more confusing than race. A major problem with the concept of ethnicity is how it changes depending on the ethnic groups in question. Ethnicities are not necessarily distinguished by the same criteria. Take the ethnicities we call “black”, “German”, and “Jewish”. The first ethnicity is defined by a set of biological traits, the second by nationality or culture, and the third by religion. This willy-nilly method of marking different ethnicities poses the challenge of how to ethnically classify people who combine these different categories. We might say that a Jewish black man from Germany belongs to three different ethnic groups all at once!
The nebulousness of ethnicity also makes it difficult to determine relationships between different people. Take Eddie Murphy, George W. Bush, and the ancient Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamun. From a biological perspective, Murphy is closer to Tut than to Bush, since both Murphy and Tut are both genetically African. However, Murphy, as an American, is culturally closer to Bush than to Tut. Depending on how one construes ethnicity, Murphy could be sorted into the same ethnicity as either Tut or Bush.
How can we consistently define ethnicity?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
A major problem with the concept of ethnicity is how it changes depending on the ethnic groups in question. Ethnicities are not necessarily distinguished by the same criteria. Take the ethnicities we call “black”, “German”, and “Jewish”. The first ethnicity is defined by a set of biological traits, the second by nationality or culture, and the third by religion...
You've answered your own query; the first, as you note, is a loose description of an observable biological trait(s), the second is a nationality, and the third, is more religiously oriented. The only one that might be a little hard to box in, is the "Jewish" identity, as it can be a reference to religious orientation and/or ethnicity. All ethnicity are a form of a smaller nationalism within a greater nationalism. The term 'ethnicity' is more appropriate than 'race', since 'ethnicity' is understood purely as a social construct, whereas 'race' presumes to be based on the biological definition.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
according to Explorer
Ethnicity = specific:
a) biological traits b) nationality c) religion
I would put it like this:
A) biological traits B) geographical location C) nationality D) religion E) cultural traditions
-we are in a new era now where there is a field of biological traits that are not observable to the naked eye, DNA analysis
The old foundation of ethnicity was the concept of race by observable to the naked eye biological traits. Some believe the methodology to indicate separate "races" within humans was a false concept.
But now Genealogical DNA tests change the foundation.
Some might think the observable to the naked eye biological traits can be replaced by this.
It is an open question.
As for "ethnicity" we have two things going one is the things that are permanent the other are things that a person could change:
A) biological traits B) geographical location C) nationality D) religion E) cultural traditions
the only one you can't change is:
A) biological traits
and all of this can get politicized
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Explorer, please show a single map which indicates y-dna haplogroups distribution in both Africa and Eurasia (or the Southern portion of Eurasia or Asia) which has clustering that distinguishes Africans from Asians
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ethnicity is not biologically determinant.
Though an ethny may share a set of biological traits, they are not what defines the ethny.
Ethnicity comes from the Greek word ethnos which specifies a people. Peoples do tend to define themselves by belief/myth of common origin, mostly speaking some dialect of a single language, a shared history, overall common cultural features like cuisine, music, ethos, spirituality, etc.
Individual members of an ethny make the choice to agree with like individuals on their joint group identity as a people. Sometimes an ethny initiates as a set of individuals relegated into group identity by viewpoint or standards enforced on them by some other dominant social set.
Nations are multi-ethnic even if named after one ethny native to the territory or who were its predominant founders or whose language is the main one spoken.
Race is determined by skin colour, hair type, and facial features.
Ancient Egyptian ethnicity is a closed set as it no longer exists. Having the predominant complexion and somewhat similar facial looks does not make anybody close to AE ethnicity.
But black is a very loose colour grouping composed of many other groups as Herodotus noted and reported when considering Colchis and Egypt related
quote: kai hoti melanchroes eisi kai oulotriches. partly because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired;
kai touto men es ouden anękei: though that indeed counts for nothing,
In the USA black has become Black, an ethnic identifier of the descendents of the survivors of the Middle Passage. The USA dominates world ideology and so Black and black are sometimes used synonymous due to USA ideas about it.
But yes it is true "the man on the street" means little more than race when refering to ethnicity. It's use in the literature and even in the media proves otherwise.
Keeping the concept of people(hood) in mind aids in avoiding incorrect usage of the word ethnicity when seriously writing on social science topics.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Many people nowadays prefer to use the word "ethnicity" in place of the old term "race", but I honestly find the idea of ethnicity to be even more confusing than race. A major problem with the concept of ethnicity is how it changes depending on the ethnic groups in question. Ethnicities are not necessarily distinguished by the same criteria. Take the ethnicities we call “black”, “German”, and “Jewish”. The first ethnicity is defined by a set of biological traits, the second by nationality or culture, and the third by religion. This willy-nilly method of marking different ethnicities poses the challenge of how to ethnically classify people who combine these different categories. We might say that a Jewish black man from Germany belongs to three different ethnic groups all at once!
The nebulousness of ethnicity also makes it difficult to determine relationships between different people. Take Eddie Murphy, George W. Bush, and the ancient Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamun. From a biological perspective, Murphy is closer to Tut than to Bush, since both Murphy and Tut are both genetically African. However, Murphy, as an American, is culturally closer to Bush than to Tut. Depending on how one construes ethnicity, Murphy could be sorted into the same ethnicity as either Tut or Bush.
How can we consistently define ethnicity?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
according to Explorer
Ethnicity = specific:
a) biological traits b) nationality c) religion
Learn to read, dummy. I made no such comment. I said the guy answered his question, as to how to delineate contexts of ethnicity. My response to him was that he had covered the answer, by pointing to his own examples of ethnicity predicated on biological trait(s), nationality, and religion.
That answer would be, that there is no single standard for determining ethnicity. Rather, it is a form of nationalism that is either self-determined by a group people or imposed on a group of people by another group of people.
Your selective scanning missed this bit:
All ethnicity are a form of a smaller nationalism within a greater nationalism. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Explorer, please show a single map which indicates y-dna haplogroups distribution in both Africa and Eurasia (or the Southern portion of Eurasia or Asia) which has clustering that distinguishes Africans from Asians
You are a bum. Any clustering away from another clustering distinguishes groups. Your question makes about as much sense as the idea of you having a brain.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Any clustering away from another clustering distinguishes groups. Your question makes about as much sense as the idea of you having a brain.
"clustering away from" is a very vague about indicating, one of your trademarks
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Klutz, the point is Africans can cluster away from Africans, and Africans can also cluster away from Asians. The same can be said about European. Europeans can cluster away from one another, as they can with respect to other Asian groups. Get the drift yet?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Klutz, the point is Africans can cluster away from Africans, and Africans can also cluster away from Asians. The same can be said about European. Europeans can cluster away from one another, as they can with respect to other Asian groups. Get the drift yet?
yet you have been unable to demonstrate differentiation by the clustering itself without resorting to geographic lables.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: he he
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Tell you what, lioness: When I am dead and maggots have eaten their way into my skull, then I'll perhaps on the same intellectual plain to "debate" with you; in the meantime, get your reading skills in order, so you won't keep getting yourself unnecessarily into trouble.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Maggot brain, I mean Explorer, if someone says they are European would you call that continental nationalism?