Researchers have sequenced the complete mitochondrial genome of a 2,500-year-old Phoenician, showing the ancient man had European ancestry. This is the first ancient DNA to be obtained from Phoenician remains. Known as “Ariche,” the young man came from Byrsa, a walled citadel above the harbor of ancient Carthage. Byrsa was attacked by the Roman general Scipio Aemilianus “Africanus” in the Third Punic War. It was destroyed by Rome in 146 B.C.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
Albinos probably up to there usual tricks.
'Now genetic research carried out by a team co-led by Lisa Matisoo-Smith at New Zealand’s University of Otago has shown the man belonged to a rare European haplogroup — known as U5b2cl — that likely links his maternal ancestry to the North Mediterranean coast, probably on the Iberian Peninsula.
Published in the journal PLOS ONE, the findings provide the earliest evidence of the European mitochondrial haplogroup U5b2cl in North Africa, dating its arrival to at least the late sixth century BC'.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Similalrly U5b2c1 of La Braña man
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:
Abstract
While Phoenician culture and trade networks had a significant impact on Western civilizations, we know little about the Phoenicians themselves. In 1994, a Punic burial crypt was discovered on Byrsa Hill, near the entry to the National Museum of Carthage in Tunisia. Inside this crypt were the remains of a young man along with a range of burial goods, all dating to the late 6th century BCE. Here we describe the complete mitochondrial genome recovered from the Young Man of Byrsa and identify that he carried a rare European haplogroup, likely linking his maternal ancestry to Phoenician influenced locations somewhere on the North Mediterranean coast, the islands of the Mediterranean or the Iberian Peninsula. This result not only provides the first direct ancient DNA evidence of a Phoenician individual but the earliest evidence of a European mitochondrial haplogroup, U5b2c1, in North Africa.
Introduction
The Phoenicians are recognized as one of the great early civilizations of the Mediterranean. First recorded as the descendants of the Canaanites, they inhabited the shores of the eastern Mediterranean and dominated the maritime trade routes of both the eastern and, later, the western Mediterranean during the second and first millennium BCE. The creators of the first alphabet, the Phoenicians documented their own records on papyrus and parchment which, unfortunately, disintegrate over time leaving behind limited historical information. The main Phoenician coastal cities, Tyre, Sidon, Byblos and Arwad, located in what is now Lebanon and southern Syria, have been continuously occupied, so rarely subjected to major archaeological excavations. As a result, we actually know little about the Phoenicians other than what was written about them by the Greeks and Egyptians [1].
[...]
--Elizabeth A. Matisoo-Smith ,Anna L. Gosling, James Boocock, Olga Kardailsky,
A European Mitochondrial Haplotype Identified in Ancient Phoenician Remains from Carthage, North Africa
quote: This suggests a remarkable genetic uniformity and little phylogeographic structure over a large geographic area of the pre-Neolithic populations. Using Approximate Bayesian Computation, a model of genetic continuity from Mesolithic to Neolithic populations is poorly supported. Furthermore, analyses of 1.34% and 0.53% of their nuclear genomes, containing about 50,000 and 20,000 ancestry informative SNPs, respectively, show that these two Mesolithic individuals are not related to current populations from either the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe.
[...]
Indicate that La Bran ̃ a specimens (Figure 1) belong to the U5b haplotype (16192T-16270T).
Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.
The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113). This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.
--Carles Lalueza-Fox
Nature 507, 225–228 (13 March 2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960
Genomic Affinities of Two 7,000-Year-Old Iberian Hunter-Gatherers
quote:Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
quote:Originally posted by X-Ras: U5b2 is a West Sahelian specific lineage:
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 128:131–155 (2005)
"The strong West African composition of the sub-Saharan African fraction of Puerto Rico becomes evident by the relatively high frequency of a U5b HVR-I sequence type previously found hitherto only in West Africa, and defined here as clade U5b2....... Haplogroup U subdivisions
Among all haplogroups found here, U is the only one that was reported in significant numbers in more than one continental region (Torroni et al., 1996). It was thus necessary to study such mtDNAs in more detail to identify their biological origin. The HVR-I sequence of the 27 samples belonging to haplogroup U segregates them into 10 types (Table 4). Although haplogroup U ismostly regarded as a West Eurasian haplogroup, it is apparent that nine of these samples originate from sub-Saharan Africa. All share the same sequence type, which has not been found in Europe or the Near East despite the thousands of samples from these areas for which HVR-I was sequenced (Alves-Silva et al., 2000; Richards et al., 2000; Finnila¨ et al., 2001; Malyarchuk et al., 2002). However, it was found in one out of 60 Fulbe sequences (Watson et al., 1997), and in one of 38 and 23 Wolof and Serer sequences, respectively (Rando et al., 1998). We classify it as a member of clade U5b* because of its 16189, 16192, and 16270 motif (Richards et al., 2000). Its distinction is the addition of a transition at position 16320. We designate it as clade U5b2 to represent a sub-Saharan African clade with a transition at 16320 as its signature."
Thus Fulani U5 lineages shouldn't be counted as "West Eurasian", since most likely they're U5b2.
Researchers have sequenced the complete mitochondrial genome of a 2,500-year-old Phoenician, showing the ancient man had European ancestry. This is the first ancient DNA to be obtained from Phoenician remains. Known as “Ariche,” the young man came from Byrsa, a walled citadel above the harbor of ancient Carthage. Byrsa was attacked by the Roman general Scipio Aemilianus “Africanus” in the Third Punic War. It was destroyed by Rome in 146 B.C.
Hear him out on Phoenicians:
The Battle of Adwa: An interview with Raymond Jonas
Researchers have sequenced the complete mitochondrial genome of a 2,500-year-old Phoenician, showing the ancient man had European ancestry. This is the first ancient DNA to be obtained from Phoenician remains. Known as “Ariche,” the young man came from Byrsa, a walled citadel above the harbor of ancient Carthage. Byrsa was attacked by the Roman general Scipio Aemilianus “Africanus” in the Third Punic War. It was destroyed by Rome in 146 B.C.
What do we have here? People who can’t read and understand.
The paper only proves what I have been saying along. 1. There was no such thing as Phoenicians sailing and building a colony in Africa. There is no DNA match between modern Phoenicians /Lebanese and the ancient Phoenicians. Lol! 2. The closest modern match is south Europe and North Africa.
This ancient Phoenician is what he is….an African. Modern Europeans/Portuguese are a subset of Africans.
See my thread on ESR. There is no such thing as pioneering Phoenicians. Lol! More documented…lies!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
This ancient Phoenician is what he is….an African. Modern Europeans/Portuguese are a subset of Africans.
See my thread on ESR. There is no such thing as pioneering Phoenicians. Lol! More documented…lies!
This Phoenician was probably black also because he carried the same HG as La Brana. The black European. Don’t get confused with the label European haplogroup. See fig 5.
They did not compare to North Africans. I wonder why? Lol! Tsk! Tsk! Lying Europeans.
Here is the discussion. Notice they are talking circles about why North Africans cannot be compare to this “Phoenicians” . lol! Europeans again trying to lay claim to African history and genes. SMH. When will they ever stop?!!
------ Relevant Quotes from the study: The unidentified “European” sequence (EF758625) which was deleted from the analysis due to missing data, also carries the three mutations which define the branch on which we find the Phoenician and the Portuguese sample.
Interestingly, haplogroup U5 and U5b have been identified in modern populations from North and Northwest Africa [57–59]. It must be noted, however, that there are few North African complete mitogenomes publicly available and HVR sequencing alone cannot identify beyond the U5b haplogroup (with the C150T HVR mutation) since the seven derived defining mutations (C1721T and A13637G, which define U5b2; A723G, 960XC and A13017G, which define U5b2c; and C6920a and A13484G, which define U5b2c1) are all in the coding regions. Achilli, et al. [59], using full mitochondrial genome sequencing identified a U5b1b1 cluster that grouped Amazigh (North African Berbers) and Saami populations. This cluster is based on the control region motif (16270–150) which is present at low frequencies in Amazigh, North African and nearly all European populations with the exception of the Scandinavian Saami where it is at about 48%. .
mitochondrial genome sequencing of 47 modern Lebanese samples that had previously been typed to Haplogroup U through analysis of the HVR-1 [12]. Haplogroups identified and haplogroup frequency are shown in Table 1. Only seven of the modern Lebanese samples belonged to Haplogroup U5 and of those, two were U5b, but NEITHER belonged to U5b2c or derived haplotypes. Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
"This Phoenician was probably black also because he carried the same HG as La Brana. The black European. Don’t get confused with the label European haplogroup. See fig 5.
They did not compare to North Africans. I wonder why? Lol! Tsk! Tsk! Lying Europeans."
Posted by Fencer (Member # 22259) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Abstract
While Phoenician culture and trade networks had a significant impact on Western civilizations, we know little about the Phoenicians themselves. In 1994, a Punic burial crypt was discovered on Byrsa Hill, near the entry to the National Museum of Carthage in Tunisia. Inside this crypt were the remains of a young man along with a range of burial goods, all dating to the late 6th century BCE. Here we describe the complete mitochondrial genome recovered from the Young Man of Byrsa and identify that he carried a rare European haplogroup, likely linking his maternal ancestry to Phoenician influenced locations somewhere on the North Mediterranean coast, the islands of the Mediterranean or the Iberian Peninsula. This result not only provides the first direct ancient DNA evidence of a Phoenician individual but the earliest evidence of a European mitochondrial haplogroup, U5b2c1, in North Africa.
Introduction
The Phoenicians are recognized as one of the great early civilizations of the Mediterranean. First recorded as the descendants of the Canaanites, they inhabited the shores of the eastern Mediterranean and dominated the maritime trade routes of both the eastern and, later, the western Mediterranean during the second and first millennium BCE. The creators of the first alphabet, the Phoenicians documented their own records on papyrus and parchment which, unfortunately, disintegrate over time leaving behind limited historical information. The main Phoenician coastal cities, Tyre, Sidon, Byblos and Arwad, located in what is now Lebanon and southern Syria, have been continuously occupied, so rarely subjected to major archaeological excavations. As a result, we actually know little about the Phoenicians other than what was written about them by the Greeks and Egyptians [1].
[...]
--Elizabeth A. Matisoo-Smith ,Anna L. Gosling, James Boocock, Olga Kardailsky,
A European Mitochondrial Haplotype Identified in Ancient Phoenician Remains from Carthage, North Africa
They are attempting another "academic reset" with that article. The phonecian culture was a slight muxture of ancient families, not like mixed DNA wise but like a melting pot of cultures. I've read so much about it, I'm almost baffled the abstract claims to state nothing is known about phonecian culture. That statement reeks of the lowest quality BS.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "This Phoenician was probably black also because he carried the same HG as La Brana. The black European. Don’t get confused with the label European haplogroup. See fig 5.
^^ see this chart? Europeans are closer genetically to "black" East Indians than Africans are, so the skin color is irrelevant. You've got it confused, this is 2016 where we have technology that can look at ancestry beyond skin deep
La Brana 1 skull
The study suggests populations closest to La Brana come from Northern Europe, such as Sweden and Finland. Findings also showed that he shares an ancestor with settlers of the Upper Palaeolithic site of Mal'ta, in Siberia.
listening Mindovermatter? > Siberia
quote:Originally posted by kdolo:
They did not compare to North Africans.
they did compare it to North Africans, read the damn source article. U5 has low diversity in NA
A European Mitochondrial Haplotype Identified in Ancient Phoenician Remains from Carthage, North Africa
In other words they are saying the Phoenicians did not come from …Phoenicia. Lol!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: In other words they are saying the Phoenicians did not come from …Phoenicia. Lol!
In other words you have no quotes that say what you say they are saying
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
No Lioness. They are saying that there is no or very little publicly available data on Amazigh/indigenous North Africans U5b sub-clades to make a comparison. Quote “ CANNOT identify beyond U5b” . Means there is no data on the Berbers at higher resolution. Thus they cannot compare the Phoenician with the modern Berbers although the modern Berbers could be a closer match. What is clear is THIS Phoenicians did NOT come from the Levant as “”documented””” in history” books”. More lies by Europeans are being exposed..
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
More likely than not. This is exactly what the genetic makeup of the Phoenician should be….indigenous North African. Notice the Levant/ samples are skewed in another direction on the tree. And the U/U5 is on a totally different branch. Are they tryiong to imply that Phoenicians were Portuguese. Lol! No Lioness. They are mudding the water as usual. Trying to steal African history with their play on words.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
What is clear is THIS Phoenicians did NOT come from the Levant as “”documented””” in history” books”. More lies by Europeans are being exposed.. [/QB]
That's bull, there is a mountain archaeological evidence. and U5 has low diversity in Africa
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] No Lioness. They are saying that there is no or very little publicly available data on Amazigh/indigenous North Africans U5b sub-clades to make a comparison.
Quote “ CANNOT identify beyond U5b” . Means there is no data on the Berbers at higher resolution. Thus they cannot compare the Phoenician with the modern Berbers although the modern Berbers could be a closer match.
Thus due to a lack of data you cannot pretend they said something conclusive in this regard, stop it
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
See here. That is the problem with some of you. Knee jerk reaction before even reading and understanding the paper. The closest match is with Iberians Portuguese. Why? Because Europeans have an extensive database. With Amazigh and Africans on the whole there is very little data. The little data that is available is NOT at high resolution so they cannot make a fair comparison. The little evidence that is available puts THIS Phoenician exactly where he should be…an African and not from the Levant. His closet match is actual with Black skinned La Brana. Who would of thought. More indication that Africans have been migrating to Europe NOT through the Levant but through Iberia and Italy.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
What is clear is THIS Phoenicians did NOT come from the Levant as “”documented””” in history” books”. More lies by Europeans are being exposed..
That's bull, there is a mountain archaeological evidence. and U5 has low diversity in Africa
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: No Lioness. They are saying that there is no or very little publicly available data on Amazigh/indigenous North Africans U5b sub-clades to make a comparison.
Quote “ CANNOT identify beyond U5b” . Means there is no data on the Berbers at higher resolution. Thus they cannot compare the Phoenician with the modern Berbers although the modern Berbers could be a closer match.
Thus due to a lack of data you cannot pretend they said something conclusive in this regard, stop it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The little evidence that is available puts THIS Phoenician exactly where he should be…an African and not from the Levant. His closet match is actual with Black skinned La Brana.
This is irrational
You speak of little evidence and then act like lack of evidence is conclusive, that is bizarre and why I have always said you are an exponent of backwardism, the concept that whatever is the opposite of an article's conclusion must be true and that the strongest evidence is lack of evidence.
And in the middle of a discussion on genetics you suddenly throw it out the window and think that dark skin makes genetic affinity obsolete.
As I said earlier Africans are less similar genetically to dark skinned East Indians and Native American Indians than are light skinned Europeans. Therefore the skin color is what is irrelevant.
As I said earlier modern populations closest to La Brana come from Northern Europe, such as Sweden and Finland.
/close backwardism
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "This Phoenician was probably black also because he carried the same HG as La Brana. The black European. Don’t get confused with the label European haplogroup. See fig 5.
http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y421/amunratheultimate2/CushiticAACinTishkoffgeneticdistance_zps89d8fca2.png~original ^^ see this chart? Europeans are closer genetically to "black" East Indians than Africans are, so the skin color is irrelevant. You've got it confused, this is 2016 where we have technology that can look at ancestry beyond skin deep
La Brana 1 skull
The study suggests populations closest to La Brana come from Northern Europe, such as Sweden and Finland. Findings also showed that he shares an ancestor with settlers of the Upper Palaeolithic site of Mal'ta, in Siberia.
listening Mindovermatter? > Siberia
quote:Originally posted by kdolo:
They did not compare to North Africans.
they did compare it to North Africans, read the damn source article. U5 has low diversity in NA
A European Mitochondrial Haplotype Identified in Ancient Phoenician Remains from Carthage, North Africa
The alleles for dark skin color in La. Brana were typically found in Africa, Africans. This was not a suggestion, but factual.
The U5 is perhaps more common there now. But that's all.
The paternal clade carried by the Phoenicians was E-V22.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fencer: They are attempting another "academic reset" with that article. The phonecian culture was a slight muxture of ancient families, not like mixed DNA wise but like a melting pot of cultures. I've read so much about it, I'm almost baffled the abstract claims to state nothing is known about phonecian culture. That statement reeks of the lowest quality BS.
Skewing data and history aren't uncommon. Also in 2016.
quote:An osteological analysis of the young man from Byrsa, or Ariche, as he has become known, determined that he was approximately 1.7 m tall and aged between 19 and 24 years, and a craniometric analysis indicated likely Mediterranean/European ancestry as opposed to African or Asian [5, 6]. A full reconstruction of the young man was undertaken and this was part of an international exhibition organized by the National Heritage Institute of Tunis and the Carthage Museum. In 2014 the skeletal remains of the young man from Byrsa and accompanying exhibition were taken to the Archaeological Museum of the American University of Beirut where we were allowed to remove small bone samples for ancient DNA analyses to identify the origins of the young man and shed light on the genetic ancestry of the ancient Phoenicians of Carthage.
Our previous research on the genetic ancestry of the Phoenicians focused on analyses of modern Y chromosome variation in historically Phoenician and neighboring non-Phoenician sites across the Mediterranean [7]. Given that the Phoenician traders were primarily men, it was recognised that there should be remnants of the genetic “footprint” of Phoenician Y chromosomes spread across the region. Weak but systematic signatures were recognised which linked the Y chromosome STR haplotypes across Phoenician sites, with six Y-STR markers of likely Phoenician introduction identified. Here we present the first ancient DNA study of Phoenician remains and the first complete ancient Phoenician mitochondrial genome.
--Elizabeth A. Matisoo-Smith
A European Mitochondrial Haplotype Identified in Ancient Phoenician Remains from Carthage, North Africa
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
.
. Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: What do we have here? People who can’t read and understand.
The paper only proves what I have been saying along. 1. There was no such thing as Phoenicians sailing and building a colony in Africa. There is no DNA match between modern Phoenicians /Lebanese and the ancient Phoenicians. Lol! 2. The closest modern match is south Europe and North Africa.
This ancient Phoenician is what he is….an African. Modern Europeans/Portuguese are a subset of Africans.
See my thread on ESR. There is no such thing as pioneering Phoenicians. Lol! More documented…lies!
quote:Haplogroup assignment and phylogenetic analysis
The complete mitochondrial genome of the young man from Byrsa was identified as belonging to haplogroup U5b2c1 possessing all of the defining mutations with the exception of 16192T, one of the two mutations defining U5, which has shown to be unstable with frequent reversions [37]. He also had five additional, coding region mutations (Fig 4). None of the researchers who collected or processed the Phoenician sample have mitochondrial haplotypes belonging to Haplogroup U. All methods to avoid contamination were applied and the possibility of modern contamination in the sequence obtained was assessed using standard aDNA authenticity criteria and shown to be unlikely, thus we are confident that the haplotype identified is indeed that of the young man from Byrsa.
--Elizabeth A. Matisoo-Smith
A European Mitochondrial Haplotype Identified in Ancient Phoenician Remains from Carthage, North Africa
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Ha! Ha! Ha! I missed that. He is E-v22!!!!! Close thread.....
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
.
.
Mediterranean/European, sounds more like someone Greek or Roman.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Ha! Ha! Ha! I missed that. He is E-v22!!!!! Close thread.....
Not just yet,...
The entire lineage shows a different path.
quote: Discussion and Conclusion
Haplogroup U5 is considered to be one of the most ancient haplogroups in Europe and is believed to have arisen there [43]. The coalescence time estimate for U5 is 29.6 kya (22.7–37.2 kya) [25] and 20–24 kya for U5b [44]. It is not uncommon in Mesolithic European populations, particularly those from Central and Eastern Europe [45]. Haplogroup U5b2c1 has been identified in both La Braña 1 and 2, the 7000 year-old remains recovered from the La Braña-Arintero site in León in Northwestern Spain [42]. Our Phoenician differed from the La Braña 1 complete mitochondrial genome at eight sites (positions 3882, 5351, 5773, 6023, 9869, 16069, 16126, and 16192). The mutations at sites 16069 and 16126 appear to be private mutations for La Braña.
[...]
The unidentified “European” sequence (EF758625) which was deleted from the analysis due to missing data, also carries the three mutations which define the branch on which we find the Phoenician and the Portuguese sample. A separate branch within U5b2c1 contains five samples, from England and Germany or otherwise unidentified as to location of origin, with the La Braña Mesolithic sample (JX186998) on its own branch.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Mediterranean/European, sounds more like someone Greek or Roman.
so that upset you and you had to delete it?
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
^^ but you posted this in the other thread ???
games
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Mediterranean/European, sounds more like someone Greek or Roman.
so that upset you and you had to delete it?
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
^^ but you posted this in the other thread ???
games
What did I delete? LOL
Yes, isn't it beautiful "black" art? Which I decicated it to your thread. It's unfortunate you don't like it. Your games not mine.
Question is, what made that dude Phoenician? His mt-DNA?
quote: Though it is believed that Carthage was established by colonisers from Tyre, in what is today Lebanon, it is unlikely that our Phoenician young man had maternal ancestry that traced back to this founding population as the haplogroup U5b2c has not been identified in our modern Lebanese samples or in ancient (early Neolithic, PPNB) remains from the Levant [54]. Given that haplogroup U5b2c1 has not been previously reported in North Africa, we suggest that the ancestry of our young man is likely traced to some population across the Mediterranean, which is consistent with his proposed European cranial traits [6].
To date, as far as we can determine, U5b2c1 has not been identified in the Balearic Islands, Sardinia, or Sicily [62–64], though it may have been on these islands in the past and lost due to drift. While some of the reported modern individuals carrying the U5b2c1 haplogroup today are found in the Iberian peninsula, they are also found in Britain, Germany, the United States, and undefined “Europe”, so we cannot say with certainty that the haplogroup is more than European. However, the highest frequency of the haplogroup U5b today is in the Iberian peninsula and U5b2c1 was also present there in Mesolithic hunter gatherers [42]. While many of the Mesolithic populations carrying these ancient U5b European lineages were replaced by later Neolithic peoples, perhaps some of these lineages persisted longer in the extreme southern part of the Iberian peninsula, on the offshore islands, or other island or coastal locations of Phoenician influence and individuals carrying these ancient European lineages were transported to Carthage via the Phoenician/Punic trade networks.
We know of no other U5b2c haplotypes recorded in North Africa [58]. Our Phoenician young man significantly predates the Moorish expulsion from Iberia (1492 AD) which resulted in the Andalusian communities that were established in Tunisia. Thus we now have a minimum date for the introduction of the European derived U5b2c1 haplotype to North Africa and its direct association with a Phoenician individual. Further work on aDNA from Phoenician remains from throughout the Mediterranean, including the homeland region in Lebanon is on-going. This research will help us better understand the origins and impact of Phoenician peoples and their culture throughout the Mediterranean region and beyond and better reconstruct ancient population migrations and trade and exchange networks and the degree to which these influenced genetic variation seen in the Mediterranean region today.
Nowhere do I read about y-DNA E-V22. Which I find unfortunate.
Lessing, Erich, photographer (born 1923)
Bearded Canaanite. Painting on a jar (fragment) ca. 1600-1200 BCE Inv. 1000
Israel Museum(IDAM), Jerusalem, Israel
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
E-V22 ???? where did that come from? If he is E-V22 the discussion stops here
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
Wait so they only got his Mtdna? Carthage was a mixed society, why not also get his Y-DNA or do a autosomal text which is better?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Ha! Ha! Ha! I missed that. He is E-v22!!!!! Close thread.....
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: E-V22 ???? where did that come from? If he is E-V22 the discussion stops here
Ish Gebor can you explain the bizarre behavior here?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Ha! Ha! Ha! I missed that. He is E-v22!!!!! Close thread.....
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: E-V22 ???? where did that come from? If he is E-V22 the discussion stops here
Ish Gebor can you explain the bizarre behavior here?
From a psychoanalyst point of view I would say, it's odd that we only see mt-DNA. Whereas we know already that the Phoenician paternal clade is E-V22. So people here, including myself are wondering how they came to the conclusion this "dude", is Phoenician? Especially knowing that Phoenicians mostly had their dead cremated.
quote: The Phoenician civilization flourished along the eastern coastlines of the Mediterranean Sea (the present-day coasts of Syria, Lebanon, and northern Israel) from approximately 2000 BC to 500 BC
"The Phoenicians likely referred to themselves as Canaanites."
The ancient Greeks were the originators of the term “Phoenicia,” which derives from an ancient Greek word (phoinikes) for the color purple.
quote: In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.
General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa p. 427
quote:According to ancient classical authors, the Phoenicians were a people who occupied the coast of the Levant (eastern Mediterranean). Their major cities were Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, and Arwad. All were fiercely independent, rival cities and, unlike the neighboring inland states, the Phoenicians represented a confederation of maritime traders rather than a defined country. What the Phoenicians actually called themselves is unknown, though it may have been the ancient term Canaanite. The name Phoenician, used to describe these people in the first millennium B.C., is a Greek invention, from the word phoinix, possibly signifying the color purple-red and perhaps an allusion to their production of a highly prized purple dye.
[...]
By the late eighth century B.C., the Phoenicians, alongside the Greeks, had founded trading posts around the entire Mediterranean and excavations of many of these centers have added significantly to our understanding of Phoenician culture. Sea traders from Phoenicia and Carthage (a Phoenician colony traditionally founded in 814 B.C.) even ventured beyond the Strait of Gibraltar as far as Britain in search of tin. However, much of our knowledge about the Phoenicians during the Iron Age (1200–500 B.C.) and later is dependent on the Hebrew Bible, Assyrian records, and Greek and Latin authors. For example, according to the Greek historian Herodotus, Phoenician sailors, at the request of the pharaoh Necho II (r. ca. 610–595 B.C.), circumnavigated Africa.
yes. it is odd that they did in depth analysis but no y DNA was revealed. odd!
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
"In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics."
more Albino sillyness.
"The Phoenicians likely referred to themselves as Canaanites." ....i.e. we dont know what they called themselves ..
Bottom line. These areas where already populated by Blacks when anyone else showed up.
Posted by Nehesy (Member # 17252) on :
FAKE as King Toutankhamon's facial reconstruction, plus canaanites were blacks. Their blackness can be seen (pictures) in Donal B Redford's Book "Egypt Canaan and Israel" or James B Pritchard's "The Ancient Near East". Finally, ancient Phenicians in Carthage had many white slaves (see : "Carthage au Temps d'Hannibal III ème siècle avant Jésus Christ" by Gilbert and Colette Charles-Picard)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ish asked What makes that man Phoenician and Im glad somebody's hip to the assumptive bullshit. 300 years after Carthage's founding and complete independence from ancient Lebanon and somehow the guy's supposed to be Phoenician not a hybrid Carthaginian Punic of primary Phoenician culture with African cultural adaptations and even bits of Mediterranean Euro culture from Carthages de facto colonies?
I see Fencer also called bullshit on the ahistorical hog swill in the article. Who schooled the writer?
Nehesy is spot on too. I own both books and can vouch for the features if not precisely the colour (black and white photos).
And that picture. I've seen it somewhere before. Doesn't in the slightest rep any ancient Lebanon art or Carthaginian art portraiture either.
Why is Euro self esteem so low that they attempt to steal and Jim Crow apartheid other peoples' antiquit
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nehesy: FAKE as King Toutankhamon's facial reconstruction, plus canaanites were blacks. Their blackness can be seen (pictures) in Donal B Redford's Book "Egypt Canaan and Israel" or James B Pritchard's "The Ancient Near East". Finally, ancient Phenicians in Carthage had many white slaves (see : "Carthage au Temps d'Hannibal III ème siècle avant Jésus Christ" by Gilbert and Colette Charles-Picard)
Thanks for informing.
Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times Donald B. Redford
somebody please scan and post these extremely (excuse me) * blubber lip * wide nostril * alveolar & sub-alveolar prognathic Canaanite ancient Syrian ancient Lebanese ratxjet Retjenu sand crawler niggas please please please please -- I got no access to a scanner at the moment, thanks
Posted by Nehesy (Member # 17252) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nehesy: FAKE as King Toutankhamon's facial reconstruction, plus canaanites were blacks. Their blackness can be seen (pictures) in Donal B Redford's Book "Egypt Canaan and Israel" or James B Pritchard's "The Ancient Near East". Finally, ancient Phenicians in Carthage had many white slaves (see : "Carthage au Temps d'Hannibal III ème siècle avant Jésus Christ" by Gilbert and Colette Charles-Picard)
Thanks for informing.
Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times Donald B. Redford
Here is one Picture from Donald B Redford’s book : “Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times Donald B. Redford”, page 200, that I posted years ago in Rastalivewire website : Two canaanites (1400 BC) HEADMEN and they are obviously black : http://tinypic.com/20ich39.jp
I'll scan Pritchard's picture (plate # 200) asap.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Thx Nehesy thx
Page 200 plate 21
somebody please scan and post these extremely (excuse me) When to use black and when not to negro racial sense otherwise nigger
Canaanite ancient Syrian ancient Lebanese ratchet Retjenu sand crawler niggas please please please please -- I got no access to a scanner at the moment, thanks
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
