posted
I was linked here from another forum where a person was claiming that the Olmec were Africans who had traveled to the Americas and that native Americans were black. This seems like Afrocentrism revisionist history. Are there any trained historians here?
Of course as an historian one knows that revisionism isn't a bad thing if the currently held idea requires revision. but...
For instance, I saw someone using this coin and calling it Hannibal...
If anyone here thinks this coin is Hannibal, please post where you get this idea. I honestly want to see what evidence there is for this being a coin portrait of Hannibal.
Let me assure you that I don't care if Hannibal was dark or light skinned, I assume he was dark skinned but not fully black. Being of Phoenician stock in a north African colony he certainly could have been dark skinned or a mix. I care about true history. I think black history is quite rich and interesting so there is no need to report and dilute the historical timeline with claims that are not, or cannot be confirmed. History is not about Black or White...it’s about people, it is a timeline of humanity and with the constant human migrations and interbreeding throughout time...no one is racially pure...
But if someone can prove this coin is Hannibal, please do so as I have yet to see anyone do so yet on this forum on any other place making this claim and as an historian and numismatist I have investigated this coin and found nothing to back this claim….and don’t get me started about the Olmec and Mozart being black. Posts: 6 | From: Houston | Registered: May 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Drusus: I was linked here from another forum where a person was claiming that the Olmec were Africans who had traveled to the Americas and that native Americans were black. This seems like Afrocentrism revisionist history. Are there any trained historians here?
Of course as an historian one knows that revisionism isn't a bad thing if the currently held idea requires revision. but...
For instance, I saw someone using this coin and calling it Hannibal...
If anyone here thinks this coin is Hannibal, please post where you get this idea. I honestly want to see what evidence there is for this being a coin portrait of Hannibal.
Let me assure you that I don't care if Hannibal was dark or light skinned, I assume he was dark skinned but not fully black. Being of Phoenician stock in a north African colony he certainly could have been dark skinned or a mix. I care about true history. I think black history is quite rich and interesting so there is no need to report and dilute the historical timeline with claims that are not, or cannot be confirmed. History is not about Black or White...it’s about people, it is a timeline of humanity and with the constant human migrations and interbreeding throughout time...no one is racially pure...
But if someone can prove this coin is Hannibal, please do so as I have yet to see anyone do so yet on this forum on any other place making this claim and as an historian and numismatist I have investigated this coin and found nothing to back this claim….and don’t get me started about the Olmec and Mozart being black.
No sorry Phoenicians are black/colored and would be seen as black/colored people in modern day America. You seem to be operating under the "true negro", what is black and what is not, based on some vague euro-centrist idiotic what is black and what is not!
Sorry but you can go research past threads on this topic to see the fact of this. Also White Indo-europeans are not originally from Europe!
Posts: 1558 | From: US | Registered: Sep 2015
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"There are no known authentic images of Hannibal, and there is no proof that Carthaginian coins show his likeness."
this is what is known.
Then it says:
"Logically who else but the great Hannibal would they [p]ut on their coin? Certainly not an ordinary elephant rider."
Is this proof that Hannibal was black? There are many cases through history where coinage did not depict the great men of the time. There are many cases where a person who could be called 'black' was depicted in art.
Again. I am not saying he was not 'black'. I am saying that this is not proof.
Posts: 6 | From: Houston | Registered: May 2016
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posted
There is both scientific and historical method and to be honest, what I have read so far conforms to neither. I see a meme from an unknown author on a website that seems to be highly biased with a strong over riding agenda to present history in a certain singular way...saying what he/she feels is a logical conclusion for a coin that has a portrait of an unknown black man on it. The conclusion given is based on the idea that if there is a portrait on a coin it must be the leader but history shows that anything from a deity to an insect, turtle, gladiator, an enemy, a representation of the genius of a state, to a shoe or a penis can appear on coins. Carthage seldom put actual people on their coinage. There is a vast amount of evidence out there for much of our timeline be it historical or prehistoric and any historian would caution when what is being presented is conjecture.
There are quite a few Carthaginian coins to browse through. Have you done so? Have you seen how the vast amount of coins minted by them do NOT show rulers but depict Tanit and those who have portraits of a male bust they are unknown but do not look like this portrait? Have you read the existing research on their coinage known to be legitimately found at archeological sites? Coins that were minted by ca4thage and its satellites like Spain or Sicily and the styles and themes they employed? What research has been conducted? what sources are being used?
I came to ask about these things because I am researching the coins of Carthage at this time and wanted to examine sources for what seems to be just an unknown persons opinion who may never have laid an eye on any other coin from this society than this one.
Under the logic being present here then Pirmasen must have been ruled by a shoe:
[ 10. February 2022, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posts: 6 | From: Houston | Registered: May 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Drusus: "That website says:
"There are no known authentic images of Hannibal, and there is no proof that Carthaginian coins show his likeness."
this is what is known.
Then it says:
"Logically who else but the great Hannibal would they [p]ut on their coin? Certainly not an ordinary elephant rider."
Is this proof that Hannibal was black? There are many cases through history where coinage did not depict the great men of the time. There are many cases where a person who could be called 'black' was depicted in art.
Again. I am not saying he was not 'black'. I am saying that this is not proof.
Drusus in case you didn't know the author of the website you are referring to is none other than Mike111 who has been posting in this thread.
MIke employed similar logic in determining the below to be a portrait of Emperor Charles V
___________________________________
Drusus, could you post a history of Carthage coins and post some pictures of Carthaginian coins? I've also read that some of these coins depict kings while others depict Greek or Roman gods or goddesses and maybe in this case could be a military elephant rider
Also I've seen quite a few other coins of the period with a man's head on one side and an elephant on the other. Let's look at the whole of it .
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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CARTHAGE. Circa 320-310 BC. EL Stater (20mm, 7.47 g, 11h). Head of Tanit left, wearing wreath of grain ears, triple-pendant earring, and necklace with seven pendants / Horse standing right.
Tanit was a Punic and Phoenician goddess, the chief deity of Carthage alongside her consort Ba`al Hammon. She was also adopted by the Punic Berber people.
A Punic billion tridrachm coin featuring Tanit, minted in Carthage between 215-205 BC.
Several of the major Greek goddesses were identified with Tanit by the syncretic interpretatio graeca, which recognized as Greek deities in foreign guise the gods of most of the surrounding non-Hellene cultures.
Long after the fall of Carthage, Tanit was still venerated in North Africa under the Latin name of Juno Caelestis, for her identification with the Roman goddess Juno. The ancient Berber people of North Africa also adopted the Punic cult of Tanit.
Bust of the goddess Tanit found in the necropolis of Puig des Molins. 4th century B.C. Museum of Puig des Molins in Ibiza (Spain
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: I just proved conclusively that Phoenicians were Black people.
^^Mike, POS, let us know how you proved this unpainted sculpture of a no-lipped, hairy, curly haired, hook nose dude is black. What, you were hoping I didn't have a close up, out os shadow?
.
Mike, POS, you are thoroughly confused. This head bears zero resemblance to the head above it. So what you proved in this instance, is that you're stupid. And just because it was found at a Phoenician site doesn't mean it depicts a Phoenician. It has no garb, jewelry or hat that might suggest ethnicity. It's a small storage container of some kind or [perhaps an incense burner
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Drusus, could you post a history of Carthage coins and post some pictures of Carthaginian coins? I've also read that some of these coins depict kings while others depict Greek or Roman gods or goddesses and maybe in this case could be a military elephant rider
Also I've seen quite a few other coins of the period with a man's head on one side and an elephant on the other. Let's look at the whole of it
This website is a great place to go to see known examples of Carthaginian coins.
As you probably know the Carthaginians were a North African colony of the the Phoenicians who were a very early Semitic trading empire based in the Levant. After the ravages of what is often referred to as the 'sea people' (an interesting historical mystery) the Phoneticians came through relatively unscathed and at this time they enlarged their trading empire and Carthage was founded at this time as a trading colony.
As we know Phoenicia fell in power at the hands of Cyrus the Great and then under Greek domination. Carthage continued on as a great Republic and became a wealthy sea power in its own right.
As we know they first competed with the a growing Roman Republic and then fought wars against them (the Punic wars) of which the winner wrote the history as, in the end, after many wars, Rome destroyed Carthage, Hannibal had already been exiled and on the run being hounded by Rome as he grew older. His cause of death is unknown but is reported by ancient historians as anything from an infection to suicide.
They were a republic, Polybius reports they had a small elite insulated Semitic population. They were small in numbers so they relied on mercenaries from all over the ancient world, many from Spain and North Africa.
They were polytheistic and their major deities were Tanit and Ba'al Hammon, Tanit being a commonly depicted on their coinage (with horse and elephant reverses). Other iconography depicted on coinage would be palm tress, grain (Sardinia issues), unidentified male busts wearing wreaths (some say Triptolemos), bulls among other themes.
Their coins, some very interesting and fine are heavily influenced by the Greek in style. Rarer issues like those during the Libyan revolt have Hercules and lion.
But like the Etruscans, so little was left, even in coinage, of Carthage after their defeat. You must understand that these two nations were such bitter enemies that only the total destruction of one or the other would do. It happened to be Rome who won and wiping them off the face of the earth and smearing them in their biased histories was the result. Precious little is left of this once great empire thus there is precious little really known of them. Its a hard research project.
Here is a nice brief overview by a man who knows the coinage very well but few of these experts will even offer a guess as to who is depicted on some of these coins....because its just impossible at the moment to know but that might not always be the case with archeological efforts in Spain and north Africa.
The black portrait is an enigma. Possibly an issue of Arretium but that isn't even known for certain. There are many theories. There are male portraits thought to be Hannibal but none that could be Identified with any certainty although some are thought to be issued by him and thought to be contemporary to his life. Another problem is Hannibal was not a ruler as this was a Republic but he did enter service to state as Chief Magistrate after the wars, he was best known as a general from a powerful family. These portraits could be other members of the family and other men in power, elephant issues are thought to be the mostly likely issue that might show Hannibal but even then it can't be known as he was not the only general using elephants.
So you see the problem with this coin and it identification.
I will not dwell on their skin color although certainly they were probably dark (Semitic), this is the best one could probably say. The racial slant, his color, is hard to say but I question the importance. To be honest, with human migration so extensive, purity of race, in just my own opinion, doesn't exist.
Any way, I just like to write and discuss history but I do not like to be insulted so I will take my leave. I encourage anyone who thirsts for knowledge of history to seek it out and insist on the closest thing to truth you can find. there are many many people out there Black, White, Asian, etc...doing real research and studying source material. If it is Black history you are interested in, it is very interesting and rich by itself, there is no need to embellish or make anything up...History itself is rich and is the story of all mankind.
Thanks, good luck
Posts: 6 | From: Houston | Registered: May 2016
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posted
Oh...also, beware of superficial physical features of ancient art work if you are looking for visual representation of what a population looked like as ancient artwork is often highly stylized and the ancient world had lots of shades, often living side by side when referencing maritime and multi national empires. For example the Olmec heads might appear to have certain features that might remind one of stereotypical black features of those carvings and Olmec and mesoamerican art is often VERY stylized and probably does not represent accurately what they looked like as a realistic depiction of the people was likely not the reason for their creation.
Posts: 6 | From: Houston | Registered: May 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Drusus: Oh...also, beware of superficial physical features of ancient art work if you are looking for visual representation of what a population looked like as ancient artwork is often highly stylized and the ancient world had lots of shades, often living side by side when referencing maritime and multi national empires. For example the Olmec heads might appear to have certain features that might remind one of stereotypical black features of those carvings and Olmec and mesoamerican art is often VERY stylized and probably does not represent accurately what they looked like as a realistic depiction of the people was likely not the reason for their creation.
The Olmec heads are not stylized, they are representative of the Olmec people. The Olmecs were Africans they lived on the Gulf Coast. The non-African people are 'Colonial Olmecs', i.e., non-Olmec people who adopted the Olmec culture.
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).
Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).
To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnostic traits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind. In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco.
The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.
In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.
Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at Tlatilco.
The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America.
Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people.
First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.
Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.
Secondly, Rossum argues that Wiercinski was wrong about Blacks in ancient America because a comparison of modern native American skeletal material and the ancient Olmec skeletal material indicate no admixture. The study of Vargas and Rossum are flawed. They are flawed because the skeletal reference collection they used in their comparison of Olmec skeletal remains and modern Amerindian propulations because the Mexicans have been mixing with African and European populations since the 1500's. This has left many components of these Old World people within and among Mexican Amerindians.
The iconography of the classic Olmec and Mayan civilization show no correspondence in facial features. But many contemporary Maya and other Amerind groups show African characteristics and DNA. Underhill, et al (1996) found that the Mayan people have an African Y chromosome. This would explain the "puffy" faces of contemporary Amerinds, which are incongruent with the Mayan type associated with classic Mayan sculptures and stelas.
Wiercinski on the otherhand, compared his SRC to an unmixed European and African sample. This comparison avoided the use of skeletal material that is clearly mixed with Africans and Europeans, in much the same way as the Afro-American people he discussed in his essay who have acquired "white" features since mixing with whites due to the slave trade.
A. von Wuthenau (1980), and Wiercinski (1972b) highlight the numerous art pieces depicting the African or Black variety which made up the Olmec people. This re-anlysis of the Olmec skeletal meterial from Tlatilco and Cerro, which correctly identifies Armenoid, Dongolan and Loponoid as euphmisms for "Negro" make it clear that a substantial number of the Olmecs were Blacks support the art evidence and writing which point to an African origin for Olmec civilization.
In conclusion, the Olmec people were called Xi. They did not speak a Mixe-Zoque language they spoke a Mande language, which is the substratum language for many Mexican languages.
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa 3200 years ago.They came in boats which are depicted in the Izapa Stela no.5, in twelve migratory waves. These Proto-Olmecs belonged to seven clans which served as the base for the Olmec people.
Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatorial. The evidence of African skeletons found at many Olmec sites, and their trading partners from the Old World found by Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski prove the cosmopolitan nature of Olmec society. This skeletal evidence explains the discovery of many African tribes in Mexico and Central America when Columbus discovered the Americas (de Quatrefages, 1836).
The skeletal material from Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas and evidence that the Olmecs used an African writing to inscribe their monuments and artifacts, make it clear that Africans were a predominant part of the Olmec population. These Olmecs constructed complex pyramids and large sculptured monuments weighing tons. The Maya during the Pre-Classic period built pyramids over the Olmec pyramids to disguise the Olmec origin of these pyramids.
Below are the racial types identified by Wiercinski:
posted
The best evidence that the Olmec Heads represent actual Olmecs is the Cascajal tablet. This tablet was found in Mexico.It is the obituary of Bi Popo, San Lorezo Olmec Head 3.
The Olmec writing on the Cascajal tablet is an obituary for a King Bi Po. This writing is written in Hieroglyphic Olmec (Winters,2006). Hieroglyphic Olmec includes multiple linear Olmec signs which are joined together to make pictures of animals, faces and other objects.
Some researchers have recognized insects and other objects in the signs. In reality these signs are made up several different Olmec linear signs (Winters,1998).
To read the Olmec writing I use the Vai script. The Vai script includes a number of syllabic signs that have been used to engrave rocks in the Sahara for the past 4000 years. I read the signs in Malinke-Bambara which was the spoken language of the Olmec.
The Olmec writing is read right to left top to bottom. Each segment of the Olmec sign has to be broken down into its individual syllabic sign. In most cases the Olmec signs includes two or more syllabic characters. The Olmec signs can be interpreted as follows:
1. La fe ta gyo 2. Bi yu 3. Pa po yu 4. Se ta I su 5. Ta kye 6. Beb be 7. Bi Po Yu to 8. Tu fa ku 9. Tu pa pot u 10. Ta gbe pa 11. i-tu 12. Bi Yu yo po 13. Kye gyo 14. Po lu 15. Fe ta yo i 16. Be kye 17. Fe gina 18. Po bi po tu 19. Lu kye gyo to 20. Kye tu a pa 21. Yu gyo i 22. Pa ku pa 23. Po yu 24. Day u kye da 25. Po ta kye tap o 26. Ta gbe 27. Bi Fa yu 28. Bi Yu / Paw
Translation Reading the Cascajal Tablet from right to left we have the following:
(8) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (7) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties.
(6) This abode is possessed by the Governor . (5)…. (4) Bi Po Po.
(3) Bi (was), (2) an Artisan desires to be consecrated to the divinity. (1) (and He) merits thou offer of libations.
(14). Admiration (for) the cult specialist’s hemisphere tomb. (13) The inheritance of thou vital spirit is consecration to the divinity.
(12) In a place of righteous admiration, (11) Pure Bi (in a) pure abode
(10) A pure mark of admiration (is) this hemispheric tomb.
(9) [Here] lays low (the celebrity) [he] is gone.
(22) The place of righteousness, [is] (21) the pure hemispheric tomb
(20) (19) Thou (art) obedient to the Order. (18) Hold upright the Order (and) the divinity of the sacred cult.
(17) Pure Admiration this place of, (16) Bi the Vital Spirit. (15) [Truly this is ] a place consecrated to the divinity and propriety.
27) Lay low (the celebrity) to go to , (26) love the mystic order—thou vivid image of the race,
(25) The pure Govenor and (24) Devotee [of the Order lies in this] hemispheric tomb ,desires [to be] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue, (23) [He] merits thou offer of Libations.
(34) Command Respect. (33)….this place of admiration. (32) Thou sacred inheritance is propriety. (31) The Govenor commands existence in a unique state, (31) [in] this ruler’s hemispheric tomb. (29) The Royal (28) [was] a vigorous man.
(36) The pure habitation (35) [of a ]Ruler obedient to the Order. (37) This abode is possessed by the governor. (38) Admiration to you [who art] obedient to the Order. (49) Pure admiration [for this] tomb. (48) Thou hold upright the pure law. (47). Pure admiration [for this tomb]. (46) [It] acts [as] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue. (45) Bi Po, (44) a pure man, (43) of wonder, (42) [whose] inheritance is consecration to the Divinity. (41) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (40) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties. (62) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb. (61) [This] tomb [is a] sacred object, (60) a place of righteous wonder. (59) Bi’s tomb (58) [is in] accord [with] the law (57) Bi exist in a unique (and) pure state the abode of the Govenor is pure.. (56) The inheritance of [this] Ruler is joy. (55) [In] this tomb of King Bi (54) lays low a celebrity, [he] is gone. (53) The tomb of Bi (52) is a dormitory [of] love. A place consacreted to the divinity. (51) Thou the vivid image of the race love(d) the mystic order. (50) [He] merits [your] offer of Libations.
This translation of the Cascajal tablet makes it clear that the tablet was written for a local ruler at San Lorenzo called Bi Po. This tablet indicates that Bi Po’s tomb was recognized as a sacred site. It also indicates that the Olmecians believed that if they offered libations at the tombs of their rulers they would gain blessings.
The Cascajal Tablet according to the road builders at the village was found in a mound. The fact that a mound existed where the tablet was found offers considerable support to the idea that the mound where the tablet was found is the tomb of BiPoPo.
The obituary on the Cascajal Tablet may be written about one of the Royals among Olmec heads found at San Lorenzo. The Cascajal Tablet may relate to the personage depicted in San Lorenzo monument 3. Head 3 San Lorenzo
We have found that the names of these rulers is probably found among the symbols associated with the individual Olmec heads. The headband on monument 3 is made up of four parallel ropes encircling the head. In the parallel ropes there are two serrated figures that cross the ropes diagonally.
There is also a plaited diadem or four braids on the back of the figure covered with serrated element. On the side of the head of monument 3, two serrated elements on four parallel lines hang. This element ends with a three-tiered element hanging.
In the Olmec writing the serrated elements means Bi, while the boxes under the serrated element within the four parallel lines would represent the words PoPo. This suggest that the name for monument 3 was probably BiPoPo.
The hanging element on monument 3 is similar to one of the signs on the Cascajal tablet. Although symbol 57 on the Cascajal monument is hard to recognize it appears to include the Bi sign on the top of the symbol. This finding indicates that the BiPoPo of monument 3, is most likely the BiPo(Po) mentioned in the Cascajal Tablet.
Cascajal Sign 57
Stirling said that monument 3 was found at the bottom of a deep ravine half-a-mile southwest of the principal mound of San Lorenzo, along with ceramic potsherds. This is interesting because the village of Cascajal is situated southwest of San Lorenzo.
According to reports of the discovery of the road builders who found the Cascajal Tablet, the tablet came from a mound at Cascajal which was located about a mile from San Lorenzo. The coincidence of finding San Lorenzo Monument 3 in the proximity of the Cascajal mound where the Cascajal Tablet was found suggest that these artifacts concern the same personage. This leads to the possibility that the Cascajal mound was the tomb of BiPoPo.
In conclusion the Cascajal Tablet is an obituary for San Lorenzo Olmec Head 3, which depicts BiPoPo .
Given the presence of similar signs on the Olmec head called San Lorenzo monument 3, which also read BiPoPo suggest that the Cascajal Tablet was written for the personage depicted in Olmec head 3.
Head 3 San Lorenzo
If the Cascajal Tablet really corresponds to one of the Olmec heads suggest that Cascajal may have been a royal burial site. If this is the case it is conceivable that other tablets relating to Olmec rulers may also be found at this locale, since some of these other mounds may be the “hemispheric” tombs of other Olmec rulers.
References to African Inscriptions:
M. Delafosse, Vai leur langue et leur ysteme d'ecriture,L'Anthropologie, 10 (1910).
Lambert, N. (1970). Medinet Sbat et la Protohistoire de Mauritanie Occidentale, Antiquites Africaines, 4, pp.15-62.
Lambert, N. L'apparition du cuivre dans les civilisations prehistoriques. In C.H. Perrot et al Le Sol, la Parole et 'Ecrit (Paris: Societe Francaise d'Histoire d'Outre Mer) pp.213-226.
R. Mauny, Tableau Geographique de l'Ouest Afrique Noire. Histoire et Archeologie (Fayard);
Kea,R.A. (2004). Expansion and Contractions: World-Historical Change and the Western Sudan World-System (1200/1000BC-1200/1250A.D.) Journal of World-Systems Research, 3, pp.723-816
Winters, Clyde. (1998). The Decipherment of the Olmec Writing System. Retrieved 09/25/2006 at http://olmec98.net/Rtolmec2.htm
Winters,Clyde.(2006). The Olmec Hieroglyphic Script. Retrieved 09/25/2006 at:
quote:Originally posted by Drusus: I was linked here from another forum where a person was claiming that the Olmec were Africans who had traveled to the Americas and that native Americans were black. This seems like Afrocentrism revisionist history. Are there any trained historians here?
Of course as an historian one knows that revisionism isn't a bad thing if the currently held idea requires revision. but...
For instance, I saw someone using this coin and calling it Hannibal...
If anyone here thinks this coin is Hannibal, please post where you get this idea. I honestly want to see what evidence there is for this being a coin portrait of Hannibal.
Let me assure you that I don't care if Hannibal was dark or light skinned, I assume he was dark skinned but not fully black. Being of Phoenician stock in a north African colony he certainly could have been dark skinned or a mix. I care about true history. I think black history is quite rich and interesting so there is no need to report and dilute the historical timeline with claims that are not, or cannot be confirmed. History is not about Black or White...it’s about people, it is a timeline of humanity and with the constant human migrations and interbreeding throughout time...no one is racially pure...
But if someone can prove this coin is Hannibal, please do so as I have yet to see anyone do so yet on this forum on any other place making this claim and as an historian and numismatist I have investigated this coin and found nothing to back this claim….and don’t get me started about the Olmec and Mozart being black.
Hold the troll bait strawmen about "Afrocentrism." There are a variety of claims and perspectives on ES- surprise- just like ANY OTHER forum. SOME people hold to the Olmec theory. Others reject it. And no long term regular that I know claims Mozart was black as in being 100% directly of African descent. SOME people argue that there may have been African bloodlines in SOME European nobility, or SOME prominent Europeans in SOME eras. There is no "approved" monolithic "Afrocentric" view on various issues. People who agree on one issue, disagree on the next- surprise- just like any other forum or group. Many of these issues are already in the archives including the coin. And there is plenty of hard scholarship and data by credible researchers presented on these forums every day. So don't attempt to build any strawmen under your "new" account, where you "heard" this and that. Roll eyes at yet another lame ploy...
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Africa (Roman province) 146 BC–5th century The Roman province of Africa Proconsularis was established after the Romans defeated Carthage in the Third Punic War. It roughly comprised the territory of present-day Tunisia, the northeast of modern-day Algeria, and the small Mediterranean Sea coast of modern-day western Libya along the Syrtis Minor.
Several political and provincial reforms were implemented by Augustus and later by Caligula, but Claudius finalized the territorial divisions into official Roman provinces. Africa was a senatorial province. After Diocletian's administrative reforms, it was split into Africa Zeugitana (which retained the name Africa Proconsularis, as it was governed by a proconsul) in the north and Africa Byzacena in the south, both of which were part of the Dioecesis Africae.
Bronze head from a statue of the Roman emperor Augustus. Found in Meroë, Sudan, made in 27–25 BC.
Bronze head of the Emperor Claudius , 1st century AD
quote:
Germanics in North Africa; The Vandals
Carthage fell to the Vandals in 439 A.D, and became the capital of their king Gaiseric,...
it has been suggested that the Vandals migrated to Africa in search of safety; they had been attacked by a Roman army in 422 and had failed to seal a treaty with them. Led by their king, Gaiseric, some 80,000 Vandals, crossed into Africa from Spain in 429. Advancing eastwards along the coast, the Vandals lay siege to Hippo Regius in 430.
Peace was made between the Romans and the Vandals in 435 through a treaty giving the Vandals control of coastal Numidia. Geiseric chose to break the treaty in 439 when he invaded the province of Africa Proconsularis and laid siege to Carthage. The city was captured without a fight; the Vandals entered the city while most of the inhabitants were attending the races at the hippodrome. Genseric made it his capital, and styled himself the King of the Vandals and Alans, to denote the inclusion of the Alans of north Africa into his alliance. The Goth leader Theodoric the Great, king of the Ostrogoths and regent of the Visigoths, was allied by marriage with the Vandals as well as with the Burgundians and the Franks under Clovis I. Like the Goths, the Vandals, were continuators rather than violaters of Roman culture in Late Antiquity.
posted
Mike still waiting come on you White people hating punk answer the question. What you a chicken **** Mike. How many times you gotta be told your Anti-White hate site of lies isn't a reliable source. No the waterless,landlocked,barren wasteland where nothing can be grown,no animals can be raised,nothing can be gotten in or out for trade known as Central Asia is not our homeland & no we won't be going there. BTW You Anti-White peon there is no truth in this forum, this forum is an Anti-White, Black supremacist hate forum.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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I'm still waiting come on you White people hating punk answer the question. What you a chicken **** Mike. How many times you gotta be told your Anti-White hate site of lies isn't a reliable source. No the waterless,landlocked,barren wasteland where nothing can be grown,no animals can be raised,nothing can be gotten in or out for trade known as Central Asia is not our homeland & no we won't be going there.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
Ok guys, we know that Melanin serves as a natural sunblock, but we also know that it is a thorough heat absorbent... so considering the critical enigma all animals have to deal with on an evolutionary level that is thermoregulation, who here can attempt to define why pigmented skin have been selected for in tropical regions... or let us try to look at the contrary, why was variable pigment dilution introduced to populations all over the globe. In most cases, harmful UVb radiation might lead to Damaged DNA, but life threatening carcinomas typical occur well after the human age for reproductive expectancy... So what selected for pigmented skin and pigment dilution? Before we talk about UV radiation and skin cancer- via "who can live here, who can't live there" rhetoric, can anyone explain the phenomena of pigment dilution and variation in humans?
please, make it succinct and intelligent, no links to non peer reviewed articles.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Ok guys, we know that Melanin serves as a natural sunblock, but we also know that it is a thorough heat absorbent... so considering the critical enigma all animals have to deal with on an evolutionary level that is thermoregulation, who here can attempt to define why pigmented skin have been selected for in tropical regions... or let us try to look at the contrary, why was variable pigment dilution introduced to populations all over the globe. In most cases, harmful UVb radiation might lead to Damaged DNA, but life threatening carcinomas typical occur well after the human age for reproductive expectancy... So what selected for pigmented skin and pigment dilution? Before we talk about UV radiation and skin cancer- via "who can live here, who can't live there" rhetoric, can anyone explain the phenomena of pigment dilution and variation in humans?
please, make it succinct and intelligent, no links to non peer reviewed articles.
. Elmaestro - You are an "ASS" who hasn't a clue about what he is talking about!
How is that for succinct and intelligent?
"Melanin is a thorough heat absorbent"
Ha,ha,ha,ha:
Damn you're a stupid bastard - did you think no one would catch that STRAW-MAN you ass?
Go away you fool, join lioness in the dunce corner.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Mike111, You already forgot what I taught you about the Dead Sea UV. You are propagating fiction. That is why I avoid your website. - - -
Mike111: " The dead sea is 400m below sea level yes. But that is not enough distance to materially effect the UV levels in the basin. Today the UV in the basin is 10, the same as the entire area. "
Your site is from highland Jerusalem, not the Dead Sea shore elevation. Jebusites formerly lived in Jerusalem, plausibly related to Ijebu/Igbo/Egyptian.
posted
The lower layers of skin is where vitamin D is processed. The top layer of skin is where the dark melanin pigmentation is. In sunny regions it's not cold and clothing is less necessary. People adapted to those regions take in a certain amount of sunlight into the lower layers of skin to process vitamin D but the excess is kept out by the darkly pigmented melanin. The Eumelanin keeps the excess sunlight and heat on the surface by absorption so the person's internal body temperature is cooler and excess UV doesn't cause damage to the lower levels of skin. It's simple, on the beach feel a black person's skin and then a white person's skin. The black person's skin is hotter but they are less hot internally because of it
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The lower layers of skin is where vitamin D is processed. The top layer of skin is where the dark melanin pigmentation is. In sunny regions it's not cold and clothing is less necessary. People adapted to those regions take in a certain amount of sunlight into the lower layers of skin to process vitamin D but the excess is kept out by the darkly pigmented melanin. The Eumelanin keeps the excess sunlight and heat on the surface by absorption so the person's internal body temperature is cooler and excess UV doesn't cause damage to the lower levels of skin. It's simple, on the beach feel a black person's skin and then a white person's skin. The black person's skin is hotter but they are less hot internally because of it
This is only partially true. The different terrains and seasons in Africa have influence as well. On top of that people have been moving around. How little do you know. lol smh
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "The black person's skin is hotter but they are less hot internally because of it"
So what is the "average body temperature"?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Bright sunshine does not directly translate as high ambient temperature. Solar ray angle has much more influence.
. . .
There's an Arab and Berber maxim to bed black-skinned females when the heat is high because they are cooler to the touch.
To whit, as a rule, cooler climates have paler inhabitants whereas darker people inhabit the equator to tropic regions.
posted
Light (also referred to in professional literature as radiation) is best thought of as a spectrum consisting of ultraviolet light (UV) at the short end, visible light in the center, and infrared (IR) wavelengths at the long end. ________________________________
Above Mike has provided us a URL link to further our knowledge on the subject >
Heavily pigmented skin does not, in fact, perceptibly increase the body’s heat load under conditions of intense solar radiation (Baker 1958, Walsberg 1988). This is because for half of the solar radiation reaching the Earth’s surface—in the infrared—there is essentially no difference in absorption between dark and light skin (Baker 1958, Daniels 1964). This evidence negates the claim by Blum (1961) and others (Morison 1985) that heavily melanized pigmentation in humans could not be adaptive in the hot tropics because of the increased heat load caused by greater amounts of absorbed solar radiation.
Melanin pigments are highly effective at absorbing and scattering the UVB wavelengths that catalyze vitamin D3 synthesis. Thus, high concentrations of melanin in the skin result in a decrease in the efficiency of conversion of 7- dehydrocholesterol to previtamin D3; pigmentation slows but does not prevent cutaneous production of the vitamin (Holick et al. 1981, Webb et al. 1988). In- dividuals with very deep constitutive pigmentation often require 10 to 20 times longer exposure to sunlight than those of lighter pigmentation in order to promote an adequate synthesis of vitamin D3 (Holick et al. 1981). This finding explains why dark-skinned individuals living at high latitudes with low levels of envi- ronmental UVB are at greater risk of vitamin D3–deficiency diseases than are light-skinned people (Clemens et al. 1982, Holick 2001, Mitra & Bell 1997). The evolutionary significance of this observation is discussed further below. The pho- toconversion of 7-dehydrocholesterol to previtamin D3 in the skin is also adversely affected by increasing age (Holick 1995), the wearing of clothing (Matsuoka et al. 1992), and by the use of topical sunscreens, which block the UVB wavelengths responsible for both sunburn and vitamin D3 production (Holick 1997, Webb et al. 1988).
Dense hairy coats protect the skin of mammals from UVR-induced damage to the skin because the hairs themselves absorb or reflect most short-wavelength solar radiation. In mammals with sparse coats of hair, however, 3%–5% of inci- dent UVR is transmitted to the skin (Walsberg 1988). Nonhuman mammals that are active in hot, sunny environments exhibit sparse coats because they facilitate passive heat loss; they also display highly melanized skin on their exposed (dorsal) surfaces to effectively block the UVR transmitted to the skin (Walsberg 1988). This evidence clearly indicates that hair loss in the human lineage was coupled with increased melanization of the skin as activity levels in hot environments increased. The early members of the genus Homo, the ancestral stock from which all later humans evolved, were, thus, darkly pigmented (Jablonski & Chaplin 2000).
ENVIRONMENTAL CORRELATES OF HUMAN SKIN COLOR Theskinpigmentationof indigenous human populations shows remarkable regularity in its geographic dis- tribution. Darker skins occur in more tropical regions and lighter skins in tem- perate, although the gradient is less intense in the New World as compared to the Old World. Even within Africa, the continent with the largest equatorial land mass, there is considerable heterogeneity of skin color, with the deepest colors occurring not in the lowest latitudes but in the open grasslands (Chaplin 2001, Roberts 1977).
SKIN PIGMENTATION AND VITAMIN D BIOSYNTHESIS In the millennia prior to about 1.6 mya, the earliest members of the genus Homo appear to have been restricted in their distribution to the high-UVR regimes of equatorial Africa. Un- der these environmental conditions, possession of highly melanized skin was critical for survival. As populations of early Homo moved both northward and southward, they began to experience different schedules and intensities of UVR exposure.
As discussed earlier, deeply melanized skin confers excellent protection against the deleterious effects of UVR, but it also greatly slows the process of vitamin D3 synthesis in the skin. As hominins moved out of the tropics, their exposure to UVR—especially to vitamin D–inducing UVB—was dramatically reduced.
An abundance of clinical and epidemiological evidence now supports the ar- gument that depigmentation of the skin evolved in humans living outside of the tropics because of the importance of maintaining adequate vitamin D3 production in the skin for as long as possible throughout the year.
Jablonski & Chaplin (2000) have advanced the idea that sexual dimorphism in skin pigmentation is primarily due to natural selection, on the basis of the need of females to maximize cutaneous vitamin D3 production in order to meet their absolutely higher calcium requirements of pregnancy and lactation. Also, darker pigmentation may have been the object of natural selection in males because of the importance of maintaining optimal levels of folate in order to safeguard sperm production, a process depen- dent on folate for DNA synthesis (G. Chaplin, personal communication). Sexual selection is thus considered to have played a role in increasing the disparity in skin color between the sexes in some societies through preference for more lightly pigmented females, but this was not its ultimate cause (Jablonski & Chaplin 2000).
The practice of recreational tanning has been eschewed by health care workers in the past 20 years because of the explosion in skin cancer rates due to increased UVR exposure. A tanned skin is still viewed by many as fashionable or as a sign of well-being, however, and this positive image has spurred the development of a simulated tanning industry in Europe, the Americas, and Australia (Brown 2001, Randle 1997).
Diet has also played a part in the evolution of human skin pigmentation in very recent human history, as is well illustrated by the Eskimo-Aleut peoples of the northeast Asian and North American Arctic. Eskimo-Aleuts exhibit skin pigmentation darker than would be predicted on the basis of the UVMED in their habitats (Jablonski & Chaplin 2000). Several factors have likely contributed to this phenomenon, including the relative recency of their migration to the far north from a lower-latitude Asian homeland and its implication that their skin color has not caught up with their current location. This is almost certainly not the entire story, however. The UVR regime of the latitudes in which Eskimo-Aleuts reside comprises almost exclusively UVA throughout the year, with virtually no vitamin D–inducing UVB except for extremely small doses in the summer months (Chaplin 2001, Johnson et al. 1976). Habitation of this latitude (Figure 5, Zone 3) by humans would be impossible without reliance on a highly vitamin D–rich diet. The major components of the aboriginal Eskimo-Aleut diet—marine mammals, fish, and caribou—provide vitamin D3 in abundance.
From what is known of the timing and nature of movements of groups of early Homo species and of Homo sapiens in prehistory, it appears that populations of humans have moved in and out of regions with different UVR regimes over the course of thousands of years. This finding would suggest that natural selection would have favored the evolution of dark and light skin pigmentation in disparate places at different times, resulting in the independent evolution of dark and light skin phenotypes and possibly involving recurrent episodes of repigmentation and depigmentation (Jablonski & Chaplin 2000). This phenomenon would have been pronounced in the early history of the genus Homo (including the early history of Homo sapiens) when cultural buffers against the environment were less effective and sophisticated.
______________________________
^^^ Mike's source, not mine
The author also mentions an alternative explanation to the Vitamin D hypothesis:
quote:
The numer- ous MC1R polymorphisms in light-skinned individuals were originally thought to denote relaxation of selection for production of eumelanin outside of tropical latitudes (Harding et al. 2000). A reinterpretation of these data indicates, however, that adaptive evolution for sun-resistant MC1R alleles began when humans first became hairless in tropical Africa, and that human movement into the less sunny climes of Eurasia favored any mutant MC1R allele that did not produce dark skin (Rogers et al. 2004). Recent study of the MC1R promoter function casts doubt on the relaxation hypothesis and suggests instead the possible action of purifying or diversifying selection on some MC1R variants in Asian and Europeans (Makova et al. 2001). A study comparing populations in southern Africa of Bantu-language
^^^ this is called the Relaxation Hypothesis
that the UV levels are lower further from the equator therefore darker is less necessary and therefore is no longer a selected trait.
This is also a reasonable hypothesis and Mike uses this argument on his website:
^^^thus if we look at populations further away form the equator than Khosians the people are often lighter
It's quite simple. It's called Natural Selection
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
No they don't acknowledge it. They've been over in Egypt for decades now whitewashing ancient Egyptian artifacts.
Organizations such as UNESCO and the World Heritage Foundation are destroying evidence that black Africans had anything to do with the ancient Egyptian culture at all. They want to completely obliterate factual evidence and claim the black African legacy as White history.
quote:Originally posted by garrett7114: No they don't acknowledge it. They've been over in Egypt for decades now whitewashing ancient Egyptian artifacts.
Organizations such as UNESCO and the World Heritage Foundation are destroying evidence that black Africans had anything to do with the ancient Egyptian culture at all. They want to completely obliterate factual evidence and claim the legacy as White history.
As to your original links, what you called original weren't really original either.
The banquette scene with servant girls in panties are from this:
We have no idea what the current condition of the tomb is. Reproductions are often from:
Book of the Dead and Elysian Fields
(Field of Reeds - actual)
By A. Gaddis & G. Seif
The plates are based on black and white photographs of scenes from many of the tombs in the Thebes area. These photographs were hand coloured from memory for reproduction.
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