Originally posted by BrandonP:
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:BTW, this specific piece of rock art is from The Jebel Ousselat site in the Atlas Mountains of Tunisia, and probably dates between 6200 and 4200 BC. It could very well be the work of Capsian or Iberomaurusian-related people.
Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:p3
The local Touareg groups who lived on the Tassili Plateau until the 1970s, and seasonally inhabited the painted shelters, have always known about the Saharan engravings and paintings. They were aware of the great age of these images and they considered 'Round Head' paintings the work of the ancient black population who previously lived there.
quote:p22
Black people of different appearance were therefore living in the Tassili and most probably the whole central Sahara as early as the 10th millenium BP.
quote:p43
At Boulder Hill, 400 metres to the north of the NK4 quarrying site, lay the body of the second-earliest human so far discovered in Egypt. He was lying on his back with his head to the west, and a bifacial axe was placed near his face, this being the first attested piece of funerary equipment in a land that was to become the most prolific source of such grave goods. A second grave, found about 30 metres to the east of the first, consisted only of a skeleton stretched out on its back, completely crushed and with its skull missing. Some foetus bones and fragments of ostrich eggs accompanied this wretched and incomplete corpse, which unfortunately cannot be scientifically dated, since the organic carbon content was insufficient to permit radiocarbon analysis, thus dissuading the excavators from attempting the same procedure on the first, almost complete body...Thus we have, standing firmly on his own two feet, the second-earliest riverbank-dweller in the Nile valley (the Taramsa Hill body being earlier). With a cranial capacity of at least 1400 cm’, somewhat negroid features (such as the praenasal fossa and alveolar prognathism).
quote:p71
Three individuals, ‘identified as ‘negroid’, comprising a woman and two children, were buried at Amekni towards the end of the seventh millennium Bc (one of the children’s burials having yielded a calibrated radiocarbon date of 6100 Bc).
quote:p82
A team of Egyptian, American and Polish archaeologists (under the aegis of the so-called Combined Prehistoric Expedition) discovered site E29-G1 (between Qasr el-Sagha and Kom Aushim), which was a human burial associated with the Qarunian settlement layer (Henneberg et al. 1989). The skeleton, laid out on itseft side in a flexed position, with its head to the east and face towards the south, was found in the lacustrine sands of the pre-Moeris lake at about 17 metres above sea level. The body was that of a forty-year-old woman with a height of about 1.6 metres, who was of a more modern racial type than the classic ‘Mechtoid’ of the Fakhurian culture, being generally more gracile, having large teeth and thick jaws bearing some resemblance to the modern ‘negroid’ type.
quote:p92-93
Only a few offerings accompanied the contracted bodies of the deceased, one of whom was wearing body jewellery made from ostrich eggshells. With regard to the anthropological evidence, only very mineralized fragments of skeletons have survived in 17 of the graves. In one instance (M20), it has proved possible to reconstruct the skull, which is apparently somewhat long and straight (a trait that is undoubtedly exaggerated by the absence of any anatomical connection with the torso), with a massive mandible; the large lower mandible (interpreted by Derry as a negroid characteristic) is exaggerated by the removal of the incisors from the upper jaw. This trait of incisor extraction is found both in modern African populations and in the skeletons from Jebel Moya, a cemetery of uncertain date situated to the west of Sennar (in the latter case mainly among women).
quote:p152
The Predynastic, a vague term that apparently comprises everything that took place before the first dynasties, in fact serves to define the time when the people of the Nile valley, between the First Cataract and the Mediterranean, were emerging from their long period of Nilotic adaptation.
quote:None of it looks realistic to me, but even the fresco's that do look more realistic dont necessarily signify anything
Originally posted by BrandonP:
I mean, how can anyone look at ancient North African artwork like this and come to the conclusion that the people would have all been lighter-skinned?
quote:
Originally posted by BrandonP:
Facial features aren't enough to indicate "race" or population affinity anymore than skin color is.
quote:The people in that particular rock art still look dark-skinned to me. Understand, I'm not talking about "race" here (a concept which should have no place in modern anthropology), but rather skin color.
Originally posted by Shebitku:
Savino di lernia classifies these types as "white"
And this is what makes it really difficult for me to understand, What exactly is any different from what he or you are saying to what King is saying here?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=013414;p=1#000012
quote:Agreed. This is my problem with Frank Snowden’s approach, which equates the Greek term “Aethiopian” with our modern “Negroid”. He seems to think that any ethnic group not described as “Aethiopian” could not have been Black or dark-skinned, when that wasn’t necessarily the case.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ The problem is that many people try to project modern concepts of "race" into ancient times and onto ancient peoples whose concepts differed.
quote:
Originally posted by Shebitku:
Savino di lernia classifies these types as "white"
quote:Do either of you think that those pastoralist groups could be the ancestors of modern pastoral Fulanis? I know Van Sertima made a connection, although some of his work is outdated.
Originally posted by BrandonP:
The people in that particular rock art still look dark-skinned to me. Understand, I'm not talking about "race" here (a concept which should have no place in modern anthropology), but rather skin color.
quote:That's not impossible. I wonder what he based his argument on?
Originally posted by Shebitku:
quote:
Originally posted by Shebitku:
Savino di lernia classifies these types as "white"
quote:Do either of you think that those pastoralist groups could be the ancestors of modern pastoral Fulanis? I know Van Sertima made a connection, although some of his work is outdated.
Originally posted by BrandonP:
The people in that particular rock art still look dark-skinned to me. Understand, I'm not talking about "race" here (a concept which should have no place in modern anthropology), but rather skin color.
quote:
Originally posted by Shebitku:
Savino di lernia classifies these types as "white"
quote:
Originally posted by Shebitku:
Do either of you think that those pastoralist groups could be the ancestors of modern pastoral Fulanis? I know Van Sertima made a connection, although some of his work is outdated.
quote:
Originally posted by BrandonP:
That's not impossible. I wonder what he based his argument on?
quote:p120
Probably the best living example in North Africa of those originally nomadic peoples called Libyans are the modem day "red" or pastoraLFulani (as opposed to the settled Fulani) especially belonging to the area of Niger and Mali. Though they themselves are probably descendants of only one of the waves of Libyans from the east, they represent the black Berber or hamitic" prototype which has existed in the Sahara for at least 5,000 years. At Jabbaren the rock art shows cattle transporting the armature of huts which is a practice maintained by the Fulani and the head gear, clothing, and most typical physical characteristics of the human figures of the pastoral period are said to resemble the present day Fulani.
quote:Actually "Berber nationalism" begins with a beurette named Mohand Arav Bessaoud. In the 1960's, he moved to France and established the "Berber academy" (which is essentially Kabyle nationalism). Then he adopted the Tuareg script to accommodate Kabyle language, and the pseudo "Amazigh" identity spread from there....
Originally posted by DougM:
This issue isn't about race but about skin color. Europeans have been obsessed with ancient Eurasian whites in North Africa for years. Many French anthropologists promote this going as far as seeing ancient Eurasian whites in ancient Saharan rock art. And of course it is the French who created Berber Studies as a discipline and Encyclopedia Berbere.
quote:Now I know why so many of these North African ethno-nationalist trolls you see on the Internet are French or French-speaking. That guy has a lot to answer for!
Originally posted by Shebitku:
Actually "Berber nationalism" begins with a beurette named Mohand Arav Bessaoud. In the 1960's, he moved to France and established the "Berber academy" (which is essentially Kabyle nationalism). Then he adopted the Tuareg script to accommodate Kabyle language, and the pseudo "Amazigh" identity spread from there....
Later on, their French father's, like, Desanges (1980), cosign them and declare that "The original berbers were a blue eyed or a near blue eyed race"
quote:https://www.pennpress.org/9780812251302/inventing-the-berbers/
Before the Arabs conquered northwest Africa in the seventh century, Ramzi Rouighi asserts, there were no Berbers. There were Moors (Mauri), Mauretanians, Africans, and many tribes and tribal federations such as the Leuathae or Musulami; and before the Arabs, no one thought that these groups shared a common ancestry, culture, or language. Certainly, there were groups considered barbarians by the Romans, but "Barbarian," or its cognate, "Berber" was not an ethnonym, nor was it exclusive to North Africa. Yet today, it is common to see studies of the Christianization or Romanization of the Berbers, or of their resistance to foreign conquerors like the Carthaginians, Vandals, or Arabs. Archaeologists and linguists routinely describe proto-Berber groups and languages in even more ancient times, while biologists look for Berber DNA markers that go back thousands of years. Taking the pervasiveness of such anachronisms as a point of departure, Inventing the Berbers examines the emergence of the Berbers as a distinct category in early Arabic texts and probes the ways in which later Arabic sources, shaped by contemporary events, imagined the Berbers as a people and the Maghrib as their home.
Key both to Rouighi's understanding of the medieval phenomenon of the "berberization" of North Africa and its reverberations in the modern world is the Kitāb al-'ibar of Ibn Khaldūn (d. 1406), the third book of which purports to provide the history of the Berbers and the dynasties that ruled in the Maghrib. As translated into French in 1858, Rouighi argues, the book served to establish a racialized conception of Berber indigenousness for the French colonial powers who erected a fundamental opposition between the two groups thought to constitute the native populations of North Africa, Arabs and Berbers. Inventing the Berbers thus demonstrates the ways in which the nineteenth-century interpretation of a medieval text has not only served as the basis for modern historical scholarship but also has had an effect on colonial and postcolonial policies and communal identities throughout Europe and North Africa.
quote:Not really... it's a bit misleading because the average Moroccan sample he used is based on only 9 samples from Casablanca, a place with Arab and recent West African ancestry. The average Moroccan typically exhibits lower Natufian and West African ancestry. Here is the average of hundreds of Moroccan samples, which you can compare to what he presents :
Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
A short video presentation about different DNA heritage in Morocco, now and then.
@Antalas: Is this a somewhat fair description of Moroccan genetic history?
Who are the Moroccans- DNA History-Ancestralbrew
quote:What is a concise definition of critical race theory so we know what you are talking about?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I take it that paper is from our fellow poster Tristan Samuels.
Tristan writes some good papers though I disagree with his use of the phrase "critical race theory" which is actually a Marxist theory. I prefer the phrase 'critical thought on race theory' which is exactly what Tristan does in his works.
quote:We see at the top 41.8% Anatolian, Barcin
Originally posted by Antalas:
The average Moroccan typically exhibits lower Natufian and West African ancestry. Here is the average of hundreds of Moroccan samples, which you can compare to what he presents :
quote:melanochroi is a word coined by T. H. Huxley in 1870 complied from Greek, from melas: dark + ōchros: pale.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Anyway, Dr. Futo like many other Classicists make it clear that the so-called 'colorline' separating 'white' from 'black' did not begin "south of the Sahara" as many Euronuts would have everyone believe but began in the Mediterranean Sea. North Africans, including Egyptians, were labeled as black i.e. Greek melanochroi and Latin atri. Yet these labels get glossed over if not ignored altogether due to the obvious inconvenience.
quote:You must be thinking of melanchroes, a word Herodotus used (seemingly one time only)
"the dark whites, whom I have proposed to call " Melanochroi," and
the fair whites, or " Xanthochroi."
quote:___________________________________________
Herodotus, The Histories, with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.
Hdt. 2.104
For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and what I say, I myself noted before I heard it from others. When it occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians; [2] the Egyptians said that they considered the Colchians part of Sesostris' army. I myself guessed it, partly because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired; though that indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too; but my better proof was that the Colchians and Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision. [3] The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine acknowledge that they learned the custom from the Egyptians, and the Syrians of the valleys of the Thermodon and the Parthenius, as well as their neighbors the Macrones, say that they learned it lately from the Colchians. These are the only nations that circumcise, and it is seen that they do just as the Egyptians. [4] But as to the Egyptians and Ethiopians themselves, I cannot say which nation learned it from the other; for it is evidently a very ancient custom. That the others learned it through traffic with Egypt, I consider clearly proved by this: that Phoenicians who traffic with Hellas cease to imitate the Egyptians in this matter and do not circumcise their children.
quote:
The four great groups of mankind, the areas of which have now been defined, occupy the whole world, with the exception of western and southern Europe, cis-Saharal Africa, Asia Minor, Syria, Arabia, Persia, and Hindostan. In these regions are found, more or less mixed with Xanthochroi (Nordic) and Mongoloids, and extending to a greater or less distance into the conterminous Xanthochroic, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australioid areas, the men whom I have termed Melanchroi, or dark whites.Under its best form this type is exhibited by many Irishmen, Welshmen, and Bretons, by Spaniards, South Italians, Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, and high-caste Brahmins. A man of this group may, in point of physical beauty and intellectual energy, be the equal of the best of the Xanthochroi: but he presents a great contrast, in other respects, to the latter type; for the skin, though clear and transparent, is of a more or less brown hue, deepening to olive, the hair, fine and wavy, is black, and the eyes are of a like hue. The average stature, however, is ordinarily lower than in the Xanthochroic type, and the make of the frame is usually lighter. In Hindostan the Melanochroi pass by innumerable gradations into the Australioid type of the Dekhan, while in Europe they shade off by endless varieties of intermixture into the Xanthochroi.
I have great doubts if the Melanochroi are to be regarded as a primitive modification of mankind in the sense in which that term applies to the Australioids, Negroids, Mongoloids, and Xanthochroi. On the contrary, I am much disposed to think that the Melanochroi are the result of an intermixture between the Xanthochroi and the Australioids. It is to the Xanthochroi and Melanochroi, taken together, that the absurd denomination of "Caucasian" is usually applied.
quote:p 4-5
232 METHODS AND RESULTS OF ETHNOLOGY
Between the forks of the Y lies the Mediterranean ;the stem of it is Arabia.
The stem is bathed by
the Indian Ocean, the western ends of the forks
by the Atlantic. The majority of the people in
habiting the area thus roughly defined have, like
the Xanthochroi, prominent noses, pale skins and
wavy hair, with abundant beards ; but, unlike them,
the hair is black or dark and the eyes usually so.
They may thence be called the MELANOCHROI.
Such people are found in the British Islands, in
Western and Southern Gaul, in Spain, in Italy
south of the Po, in parts of Greece, in Syria and
Arabia, stretching as far northward and eastward
as the Caucasus and Persia. They are the chief
inhabitants of Africa north of the Sahara, and, like
the Xanthochroi, they end in the Canary Islands.
They are known as Kelts, Iberians, Etruscans,
Romans, Pelasgians, Berbers, Semites. The
majority of them are long-headed, and of smaller
stature than the Xanthochroi.¹ It is needless
to remark upon the civilization of these two
great stocks. With them has originated every
thing that is highest in science, in art, in law,
in politics, and in mechanical inventions. In their
hands, at the present moment, lies the order of the social world,
and to them its progress is committed .
237
Of the eleven different
stocks enumerated, seven have been known to us
for less than 400 years ; and of these seven not
one possessed a fragment of written history at the
time itcame into contact with European civilization.
The other four-the Negroes, Mongolians,
Xanthochroi, and Melanochroi-have always
existed in some of the localities in which they are
now found, nor do the negroes ever seem to have
voluntarily travelled beyond the limits of their
present area. But ancient history is in a great
measure the record of the mutual encroachments
of the other three stocks.
On the whole, however, it is wonderful how
little change has been effected by these mutual
invasions and intermixtures. As at the present
time, so at the dawn of history, the Melanochroi
the fringed the Atlantic and the Mediterranean ;
Xanthochroi occupied most of Central and
Eastern Europe, and much of Western and
Central Asia ; while Mongolians held the extreme
east of the Old World. So far as history teaches
us, the populations of Europe, Asia and Africa
were, twenty¹ centuries ago, just what they
are now, in their broad features and general distribution.
260 BRITISH ETHNOLOGY V
So far as the physical
evidence goes, it is perfectly consistent with the
hypothesis that the only constituent stocks of that
population, now, or at any other period about
which we have evidence, are the dark whites,
whom I have proposed to call " Melanochroi," and
the fair whites, or " Xanthochroi."
at
IV. The Xanthochroi and the Melanochroi of
Britain are, speaking broadly, distributed,
present, as they were in the time of Tacitus ; and
their representatives on the continent of Europe
have the same general distribution as
at the earliest period of which we have any record.
262
The
conclusions which I draw from these and other
facts are (1) That the Melanochroi and the
Xanthochroi are two separate races in the bio
logical sense of the word race ; (2) That they have
had the same general distribution as at present
from the earliest times of which any record exists
on the continent of Europe ; (3) That the popula
tion of the British Islands is derived from them,
and from them only.
The people of Europe, however, owe their
national names, not to their physical character
istics , but to their languages, or to their political
relations ; which, it is plain, need not have the
slightest relation to these characteristics .
quote:what is the identity of the majority of people in the Maghreb today?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
her point is that 'black' identity was not limited to Sub-Sahara but rather the Mediterranean Sea and that blacks were clearly native to North Africa including Egypt.
quote:I love Djehuti
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Anyway, Dr. Futo like many other Classicists make it clear that the so-called 'colorline' separating 'white' from 'black' did not begin "south of the Sahara" as many Euronuts would have everyone believe but began in the Mediterranean Sea. North Africans, including Egyptians, were labeled as black i.e. Greek melanochroi and Latin atri. Yet these labels get glossed over if not ignored altogether due to the obvious inconvenience.
quote:Estimates of aboriginal African ancestry in the Iberomaurusian population vary significantly. According to the Shum Laka paper, it suggests approximately 56% - if I remember correctly. Additionally, if we assume Moroccans have an average of 30% IBM and 5-10% West African ancestry, we can hypothesize that Moroccans possess around 20-25% of Aboriginal African ancestry, of which the greatest part would be native to North Africa. North Africans are basically old world quadroons.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Iberomaurusian-Natufian =
19.7% aboriginal African/
19.7% non-aboriginal African
So about 20% aboriginal African
and then add to that 7% Yoruba
So would you agree a reasonable rough guess
is that the average modern Moroccan is
about 27% aboriginal African
> if going by the above chart?
Also, populations in Morocco who would have had a greater aboriginal African percentage may no longer exist
quote:Using the word "North African" as a type of person is too vague and it is better not to use it all.
Originally posted by Doug M:
All that to say that "Iberomarusian" ancestry is not a marker defining what makes a North African as it is limited to Morocco. Saying such things is pseudo scientific nonsense. Ancient North African ancestry is not simply the result of mixing between Iberians and aboriginal Africans as implied by Iberomarusian. In fact the earliest Iberomarusian samples had no European ancestry at all.
quote:Y DNA Haplogroup E1b1b1b reaches an average frequency of 45% across the Maghreb . J-M267 is the second most-frequent haplogroup, accounting for around 30%.
Originally posted by Doug M:
All that to say that "Iberomarusian" ancestry is not a marker defining what makes a North African as it is limited to Morocco.
quote:prove it with a source please
Originally posted by Doug M:
the earliest Iberomarusian samples had no European ancestry at all.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:Not sure I believe it since "melas" does literally translate to "black", whereas "melis" is the word for "honey".
The original Greek reads "μελάγχροες", which has often been translated as 'dark-skinned'. However, the word is likely a composite of the words 'μέλι' (honey) and 'έγχρωμος' (coloured) - so a more accurate translation is 'tan'. Herodotus admitted that his description of the skin colour and the hair texture of the Colchians were unremarkable because there were people with similar characteristics - by which he probably meant that there were similar looking people in the region. Herodotus began his assumption that the Colchians were related to the Egyptians by the tan/honey colour of their skin and length and style of their hair, but was only able to 'confirm' this upon noticing that both practiced circumcision, which he compared with the Egyptians and Ethiopians, but also the Arameans, Asyrians and Phoenicians. Simultaneously, Herodotus distinguished between Egyptians and Ethiopians - the latter of whom are explicitly described as black skinned - thus the Egyptians and Colchians he was describing were more likely just as tan as the other people in the Aegean and Anatolia.
quote:I entered "μελάγχροες" into a Greek-to-Latin transliterator and I got "melankroes", so I see you are right.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ There is a difference between the Greek word Mελανο (Melano)--black and Mέλι (Meli)-- honey.
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
You must be thinking of melanchroes, a word Herodotus used
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Lioness, I'm not using Huxley's made up term but the original Greek
quote:
Hesiod, Homeric Hymns, Epic Cycle, Homerica. Translated by Evelyn-White, H G. Loeb Classical Library Volume 57. London: William Heinemann, 1914.
FRAGMENT 40A - CHASE OF THE HARPIES
Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358 fr. 2 (3rd cent. A.D.):28
((lacuna -- Slight remains of 7 lines)) "(ll. 8-35) (The Sons of Boreas pursued the Harpies) to the lands of the Massagetae and of the proud Half-Dog men, of the Underground-folk and of the feeble Pygmies; and to the tribes of the boundless Black-skins and the Libyans. Huge Earth bare these to Epaphus -- soothsaying people, knowing seercraft by the will of Zeus the lord of oracles, but deceivers, to the end that men whose thought passes their utterance29 might be subject to the gods and suffer harm -- Aethiopians and Libyans and mare-milking Scythians. For verily Epaphus was the child of the almighty Son of Cronos, and from him sprang the dark Libyans, and high-souled Aethiopians, and the Underground-folk and feeble Pygmies. All these are the offspring of the lord, the Loud-thunderer. Round about all these (the Sons of Boreas) sped in darting flight . . . of the well-horsed Hyperboreans -- whom Earth the all-nourishing bare far off by the tumbling streams of deep-flowing Eridanus . . . of amber, feeding her wide-scattered offspring -- and about the steep Fawn mountain and rugged Etna to the isle Ortygia and the people sprung from Laestrygon who was the son of wide-reigning Poseidon. Twice ranged the Sons of Boreas along this coast and wheeled round and about yearning to catch the Harpies, while they strove to escape and avoid them. And they sped to the tribe of the haughty Cephallenians, the people of patient-souled Odysseus whom in aftertime Calypso the queenly nymph detained for Poseidon. Then they came to the land of the lord the son of Ares . . . they heard. Yet still (the Sons of Boreas) ever pursued them with instant feet. So they (the Harpies) sped over the sea and through the fruitless air . . . "
quote:LOL Huxley is clearly mistaken since the word melanochroi is a compound of two words-- melano (black) and chroi (colors) which is the plural of chrōa (color). Chrota/Khrota is colored which is more specific.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
this is what you wrote "melanochroi"^^
With that spelling T.H. Huxley said in 1870:
"the men whom I have termed Melanochroi, or dark whites."
("ochroi" derived from the Greek word “ochre,” meaning pale yellow)
although it seems close to
Melanokhrôtoi (Black-skinned)
but that is not the spelling you originally used
as we can see above
quote:Your goal is to show that the Greeks indicated a border, that everything below the Mediterranean were people darker than them
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Hesiod, Catalogues of Women Fragment 40A (from the Oxyrhynchus Papyri) (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"To the lands of the Massagetai and of the proud Hemikunes (Hemicynes) (Half-Dog Men), of the Katoudaioi (Catoudaei) (Underground-Folk) and of the feeble Pygmaioi (Pygmies); and to the tribes of the boundless (Melanchroti) (Black-Skins) and the Libys (North-Africans). Huge Gaia (the Earth) bare these to Epaphos--soothsaying people, knowing seercraft by the will of Zeus the lord of oracles, but deceivers, to the end that men whose thought passes their utterance might be subject to the gods and suffer harm--Aithiopes (Ethiopians) and Libys (Libyans) and mare-milking Skythioi (Scythians). For verily Epaphos was the child of the almighty Son of Kronos (Cronus) [Zeus], and from him sprang the dark Libys and high-souled Aithiopes, and the Katoudaioi (Underground-Folk) and feeble Pygmaioi. All these are the offspring of the lord, the Loud-thunderer [i.e. Zeus as the father of Epaphos]."
https://www.ancientgreecereloaded.com/files/ancient_greece_reloaded_website/legendary_monsters/pygmy.php
the same, translated by Loeb Classical
https://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html
Hesiod, Homeric Hymns, Epic Cycle, Homerica. Translated by Evelyn-White, H G. Loeb Classical Library Volume 57. London: William Heinemann, 1914.
FRAGMENT 40A - CHASE OF THE HARPIES
Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358 fr. 2 (3rd cent. A.D.):28
((lacuna -- Slight remains of 7 lines)) "(ll. 8-35)
(The Sons of Boreas pursued the Harpies) to the lands of the Massagetae and of the proud Half-Dog men, of the Underground-folk and of the feeble Pygmies; and to the tribes of the boundless Black-skins and the Libyans. Huge Earth bare these to Epaphus -- soothsaying people, knowing seercraft by the will of Zeus the lord of oracles, but deceivers, to the end that men whose thought passes their utterance29 might be subject to the gods and suffer harm -- Aethiopians and Libyans and mare-milking Scythians. For verily Epaphus was the child of the almighty Son of Cronos, and from him sprang the dark Libyans, and high-souled Aethiopians, and the Underground-folk and feeble Pygmies. All these are the offspring of the lord, the Loud-thunderer. Round about all these (the Sons of Boreas) sped in darting flight . . . of the well-horsed Hyperboreans -- whom Earth the all-nourishing bare far off by the tumbling streams of deep-flowing Eridanus . . . of amber, feeding her wide-scattered offspring -- and about the steep Fawn mountain and rugged Etna to the isle Ortygia and the people sprung from Laestrygon who was the son of wide-reigning Poseidon. Twice ranged the Sons of Boreas along this coast and wheeled round and about yearning to catch the Harpies, while they strove to escape and avoid them. And they sped to the tribe of the haughty Cephallenians, the people of patient-souled Odysseus whom in aftertime Calypso the queenly nymph detained for Poseidon. Then they came to the land of the lord the son of Ares . . . they heard. Yet still (the Sons of Boreas) ever pursued them with instant feet. So they (the Harpies) sped over the sea and through the fruitless air . . . "
quote:So how does this work? You were yearning for a racial border line at the Mediterranean
Herodotus, The Histories, with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.
"Hdt. 2.104
quote:
For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and what I say, I myself noted before I heard it from others. When it occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians; [2] the Egyptians said that they considered the Colchians part of Sesostris' army. I myself guessed it, partly because they are melanchroes (dark-skinned) and woolly-haired; though that indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too; but my better proof was that the Colchians and Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision. [3] The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine acknowledge that they learned the custom from the Egyptians, and the Syrians of the valleys of the Thermodon and the Parthenius, as well as their neighbors the Macrones, say that they learned it lately from the Colchians. These are the only nations that circumcise, and it is seen that they do just as the Egyptians. [4] But as to the Egyptians and Ethiopians themselves, I cannot say which nation learned it from the other; for it is evidently a very ancient custom. That the others learned it through traffic with Egypt, I consider clearly proved by this: that Phoenicians who traffic with Hellas cease to imitate the Egyptians in this matter and do not circumcise their children.
quote:please do a new thread
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:We see at the top 41.8% Anatolian, Barcin
Originally posted by Antalas:
Here is the average of hundreds of Moroccan samples, which you can compare to what he presents :
quote:Athenaeus of Naucratis was a Greek rhetorician and grammarian, flourishing about the end of the 2nd and beginning of the 3rd century AD.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
There is no "ochroi" as in ochres! Huxley made that sh*t up! LMAO
quote:"ochroi, identified by Jones as a chickpea"
From Athenaeus'! however we learn of another kind of kernos.
In his discussion of the various kinds of cups and their uses he says: ‘ Kernos, a vessel made of earthenware, having in it many little cups fastened to it, in which are white poppies, wheat, barley, pulse, vetch, ochroi, lentils; and he who carries it after the fashion of the carrier of the liknon, tastes of these things, as Ammonius relates in his third book On Altars and Sacrifices.’ A second and rather fuller notice of the kernos is given by Athenaeus? a little later in discussing the kotylos. ‘Polemon in his treatise “ On the Dian Fleece” says, “And after this he performs the rite and takes it from the chamber and distributes it to those who have borne the kernos aloft.”’ Then follows an amplified list of the contents of the kernos. The additions are italicized: ‘ sage, white poppies, wheat, barley, pulse, vetch, ochroi, lentils, beans, spelt, oats, a cake, honey, oil, wine, milk, sheep's wool wnwashed,
159
https://archive.org/details/prolegomenatostu00harr/page/158/mode/2up?q=ochroi
quote:(although I have not been able to verify in a quote by Huxley if this is how he broke down the word)
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/melanochroi
Melanochroi
/ (ˌmɛləˈnɒkrəʊˌaɪ) /
pl n
a postulated subdivision of the Caucasoid race, characterized by dark hair and pale complexion
ORIGIN OF MELANOCHROI
1
C19: New Latin (coined by T. H. Huxley), from Greek, from melas dark + ōchros pale
quote:.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
The ancient Greek word melanochroi
quote:Ok show us these texts, give us some paragraphs of Greek text translated into English where they are calling Egyptians melanochroi
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Okay, I read Tristan's paper. It's pretty good and raises a lot of excellent points. The one thing
I was surprised he missed was the simple fact that the Greeks called the Egyptians "melanochroi" which is their term for 'black colored'.
quote:^^ Yeah mods, this dude has asked this about 40 times in various threads
Originally posted by Tazarah:
Lioness,
why are you no longer a mod?
quote:The next step is to go into google books
Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:I entered "μελάγχροες" into a Greek-to-Latin transliterator and I got "melankroes", so I see you are right.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb] ^ There is a difference between the Greek word Mελανο (Melano)--black and Mέλι (Meli)-- honey.
quote:Elmaestro might know. This paper does have some aDNA samples from the Bronze Age Caucasus, but none of them appear to be from the area of ancient Colchis (i.e. they are almost all north of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, whereas Colchis was to the southeast of those).
Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
What does eventual human remains and aDNA say about the descendancy and phenotype of the Colchians? Have there been any aDNA studies? And what can be read from the DNA of todays inhabitants of the area?
quote:The Herodotus quote
Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
What does eventual human remains and aDNA say about the descendancy and phenotype of the Colchians? Have there been any aDNA studies? And what can be read from the DNA of todays inhabitants of the area?
quote:Again, this part
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Herodotus/2b*.html
Herodotus, The Histories, with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.
HERODOTUS
p385 Book II: chapters 99‑182
104
For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and what I say, I myself noted before I heard it from others. When it occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians; [2] the Egyptians said that they considered the Colchians part of Sesostris' army. I myself guessed it, partly because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired; though that indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too; but my better proof was that the Colchians and Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision. [3] The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine acknowledge that they learned the custom from the Egyptians, and the Syrians of the valleys of the Thermodon and the Parthenius, as well as their neighbors the Macrones, say that they learned it lately from the Colchians. These are the only nations that circumcise, and it is seen that they do just as the Egyptians. [4] But as to the Egyptians and Ethiopians themselves, I cannot say which nation learned it from the other; for it is evidently a very ancient custom. That the others learned it through traffic with Egypt, I consider clearly proved by this: that Phoenicians who traffic with Hellas cease to imitate the Egyptians in this matter and do not circumcise their children.
quote:So it was plain for him to see that the Colchians are Egyptians
For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and what I say, I myself noted before I heard it from others. When it occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians;the Egyptians said that they considered the Colchians part of Sesostris' army.
quote:Stay on topic. First warning. And stop harassing members in different threads. I'm also entertaining moving this thread to the Deshret.
Originally posted by Tazarah:
Lioness,
why are you no longer a mod?
quote:The above is
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Reviewing my posts, I just realized something. The word for colored or pigmented is χρώα/chroa which is singular feminine thus the plural can't be chroi which is the masculine plural. So looking up the Greek, the actual word used for black people is μελάγχρους/melanchroes.
This is the word Herodotus used to describe the Egyptians as shown below:
And this is the word confirmed by Classicists.
So yes Lioness is correct that I used the wrong spelling, more specifically the one used by racialists like Huxley. The Greek word for ochre is ochres which is masculine and thus the plural would be ochroi.
So I do apologize for the mix up.
quote:I am recommending
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Herodotus/2b*.html
Herodotus, The Histories, with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.
HERODOTUS
p385 Book II: chapters 99‑182
104
For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and what I say,
I myself noted before I heard it from others. When it occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians; [2] the Egyptians said that they considered the Colchians part of Sesostris' army. I myself guessed it, partly because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired; though that indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too; but my better proof was that the Colchians and Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision. [3] The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine acknowledge that they learned the custom from the Egyptians, and the Syrians of the valleys of the Thermodon and the Parthenius, as well as their neighbors the Macrones, say that they learned it lately from the Colchians. These are the only nations that circumcise, and it is seen that they do just as the Egyptians. [4] But as to the Egyptians and Ethiopians themselves, I cannot say which nation learned it from the other; for it is evidently a very ancient custom. That the others learned it through traffic with Egypt, I consider clearly proved by this: that Phoenicians who traffic with Hellas cease to imitate the Egyptians in this matter and do not circumcise their children.
quote:That's ridiculous,
Originally posted by BrandonP:
Honestly, as far as this thread is concerned, I'm more interested in what the Colchians actually looked like and what their origins were than the stupid "what does melanchroes mean" discussion.
What cannot be disputed is that Herodotus considered the Colchians of his day to be relatively dark-skinned.
quote:I realize the exact degree of darkness is the most import thing to know about the Colchians but he didn't specify
Originally posted by BrandonP:
The questions that remain (assuming Herodotus was speaking the truth) are how dark were they, and what were darker-skinned people doing in the Caucasus at that time?
quote:that could easily be disputed
Originally posted by BrandonP:
What cannot be disputed is that Herodotus considered the Colchians of his day to be relatively dark-skinned.
quote:He didn't say the Colchian were like the Egyptians
104
Hedodotus
For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and what I say,
I myself noted before I heard it from others. When it occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians; [2] the Egyptians said that they considered the Colchians part of Sesostris' army.
quote:because you can see there is an attempt with this word to reconcile the dark description with the fact that they are people of the Caucasus mountain region, the so called homeland of "whites"
T.H. Huxley
"the dark whites, whom I have proposed to call " Melanochroi," and
the fair whites, or " Xanthochroi."
quote:The author references this book
Herodotus regarded the Colchians as "dark-skinned (μελάγχροες) and woolly-haired", an Egyptian race. Herodotus states that the Colchians, with the Ancient Egyptians and the Ethiopians, were the first to practice circumcision, a custom which he claims that the Colchians inherited from remnants of the army of Pharaoh Sesostris (Senusret III). Herodotus writes:
----
These claims have been widely rejected by modern historians. It is in doubt if Herodotus had ever been to Colchis or Egypt, and no Egyptian army ever set foot in the Caucasus, a region shielded by states to the south of the Caucasus too powerful for any Egyptian army to pass through, such as Urartu, Hittia, Assyria and Mitanni.
quote:References to the last paragraph are:
Many modern theories suggest that the ancestors of the Laz-Mingrelians constituted the dominant ethnic and cultural presence in the region in antiquity, and hence played a significant role in the ethnogenesis of the modern Georgians.[59][60]
quote:Marincola is the same type of scholar Bernal was exposing throughout his work. If you look at Bernal's wiki page you can see how a tidal wave of 'experts' retaliated and assassinated his character, deliberately magnifying his errors and obscuring the bottom line factual essence of his work.
These claims have been widely rejected by modern historians. It is in doubt if Herodotus had ever been to Colchis or Egypt, and no Egyptian army ever set foot in the Caucasus, a region shielded by states to the south of the Caucasus too powerful for any Egyptian army to pass through, such as Urartu, Hittia, Assyria and Mitanni.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) and the fate of Bernal's work.quote:Why was there no "Afro-asiatic" element in the recent DNA studies of Mycenians and Minoans ? Seems like you overinterpret the accounts provided by ancient individuals without substantial supporting evidence.
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Marincola is the same type of scholar Bernal was exposing throughout his work. If you look at Bernal's wiki page you can see how a tidal wave of 'experts' retaliated and assassinated his character, deliberately magnifying his errors and obscuring the bottom line factual essence of his work.
These claims have been widely rejected by modern historians. It is in doubt if Herodotus had ever been to Colchis or Egypt, and no Egyptian army ever set foot in the Caucasus, a region shielded by states to the south of the Caucasus too powerful for any Egyptian army to pass through, such as Urartu, Hittia, Assyria and Mitanni.
Whatever may be said about errors in Herodotus and Bernal (e.g. the degree of borrowing), they were not wrong about the essential bottom line of their anthro comments. When I say that, I'm specifically talking about their comments of an Egyptian or perhaps better called Afroasiatic element in the Aegean, and the areas south of the Caucasus (from which the dark skinned element among the Colchians could easily be an offshoot).
Basic Y-chromosomal haplogroups, which have been described in
this study, are common for the Caucasus and Europe during the Iron
Age period - E1a2a, G2a1a, R1b, and R1a; moreover, R1a and R1b
haplogroups have been usually associated with the Indo-European mi-
grations (Haak et al., 2015; de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018).
Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the prehistoric Koban culture of the North Caucasus
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/1-s2.0-S2352409X20301486-main.pdf
Another example of the academic community's typical pattern of defiance and obfuscation around Afroasiatic outposts/colonies in West Eurasia is the academic rendering of Bronze Age Semites as non-African Middle Easterners, as can be seen in the study of the Afroasiatic language family, in which the word 'Semitic' in 'Hamito-Semitic' was supposed to be the 'white' (and ancestral) component of this language family, while the Hamitic branch was a heavily modified remnant of a white population (e.g. Chadic speakers especially were seen as dubious members of this language family, due to their features). Though officially denounced today, these academic aggressions towards Africans still persist as shown by their questioning of ancient observers simply because they witnessed and wrote about Semitic/Afroasiatic enclaves (as if these ancients stand alone, as far as evidence goes
You can see why someone who has even a basic background in anthropology can lose respect for these so-called 'experts' ability to do any serious anthropology.
quote:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22 are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans , thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions
quote:Seems that many of the haplogroups still are present in the populations in Caucasus.
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Marincola is the same type of scholar Bernal was exposing throughout his work. If you look at Bernal's wiki page you can see how a tidal wave of 'experts' retaliated and assassinated his character, deliberately magnifying his errors and obscuring the bottom line factual essence of his work.
These claims have been widely rejected by modern historians. It is in doubt if Herodotus had ever been to Colchis or Egypt, and no Egyptian army ever set foot in the Caucasus, a region shielded by states to the south of the Caucasus too powerful for any Egyptian army to pass through, such as Urartu, Hittia, Assyria and Mitanni.
Whatever may be said about errors in Herodotus and Bernal (e.g. the degree of borrowing), they were not wrong about the essential bottom line of their anthro comments. When I say that, I'm specifically talking about their comments of an Egyptian or perhaps better called Afroasiatic element in the Aegean, and the areas south of the Caucasus (from which the dark skinned element among the Colchians could easily be an offshoot).
Basic Y-chromosomal haplogroups, which have been described in
this study, are common for the Caucasus and Europe during the Iron
Age period - E1a2a, G2a1a, R1b, and R1a; moreover, R1a and R1b
haplogroups have been usually associated with the Indo-European mi-
grations (Haak et al., 2015; de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018).
Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the prehistoric Koban culture of the North Caucasus
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/1-s2.0-S2352409X20301486-main.pdf
Another example of the academic community's typical pattern of defiance and obfuscation around Afroasiatic outposts/colonies in West Eurasia is the academic rendering of Bronze Age Semites as non-African Middle Easterners, as can be seen in the study of the Afroasiatic language family, in which the word 'Semitic' in 'Hamito-Semitic' was supposed to be the 'white' (and ancestral) component of this language family, while the Hamitic branch was a heavily modified remnant of a white population (e.g. Chadic speakers especially were seen as dubious members of this language family, due to their physical features). Though officially denounced today, these academic aggressions towards Africans still persist as shown by their questioning of ancient observers simply because they witnessed and wrote about Semitic/Afroasiatic enclaves (as if these ancients stand alone, as far as evidence goes
You can see why someone who has even a basic background in anthropology can lose respect for these so-called 'experts' ability to do any serious anthropology.
quote:It seems hard to know what skin color the iron age peoples had only from their haplogroups. Maybe autosomal DNA could tell us. Also eventual skulls could perhaps give a better view about their phenotype.
Previously published archeological data show that the Scythian invasions had a significant influence on cultural legacy of Koban archeological culture (Kozenkova, 1989). This point of view can be confirmed by our Y-chromosomal data (see Y-haplogroup identification results for samples 11 and 13 in Table 3); the Y-haplogroups R1a and R1b were frequently described in both Scythians and Sarmatians (Underhill et al., 2010; Juras et al., 2017; de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018; Krzewinska et al., 2018; Mary et al., 2019).
The G1a haplogroup is usually associated with Near Eastern Neolithic cultures (Lazaridis et al., 2016), but it was also presented in Neolithic Europe (Lacan et al., 2011a; Lacan et al., 2011b). Nowadays G2a has low frequencies in Central Europe; however, it is widespread in modern Ossetians (Balanovsky et al., 2011), Balkars, and Karachays (Dzhaubermezov et al., 2017). R1a, R1b, and E1a2a haplogroups can be identified in other modern North Caucasian ethnic groups – Balkars, Karachays, Dargins, Lezghins, and Abkhaz (Nasidze et al., 2004; Balanovsky et al., 2011; khusnutdinova et al., 2012; Dzhaubermezov et al., 2017).
quote:Dr. John Henrik Clarke vs Mary Lefkowitz: The Great Debate (1996)
Legendary discussion between Dr. John Henrik Clarke, Dr. Martin Gardiner Bernal (Black Athena), Professor Mary Lefkowitz (Not Out Of Africa) and Guy MacLean Rogers (Black Athena Revisited), moderated by Utrice Leid, They debate the Origins and Foundations of Western Civilization. Does Africa, Asia or Ancient Greece supply the foundation of the world we live in today?
quote:Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the prehistoric Koban culture of the North Caucasus
R1a, R1b, and E1a2a haplogroups can be identified in other modern North Caucasian ethnic groups – Balkars, Karachays, Dargins, Lezghins, and Abkhaz
quote:That's what academics and their wikipedia parrots say to tarnish Bernal and make him seem like a crackpot who got his ideas from Greek mythology and Hellenic Egyptophiles who were eager to ascribe the origin of their culture to Egyptians. The same comment is made on the Bernal wiki page. Basically, it goes like this:
Originally posted by Antalas:
Why was there no "Afro-asiatic" element in the recent DNA studies of Mycenians and Minoans ? Seems like you overinterpret the accounts provided by ancient individuals without substantial supporting evidence.
quote:Artificial Skull Treatment in the PPNB Period: Nahal Hemar
The Nea Nikomedeia from Greece [n=4] and Nubia 117 from
southern Egypt manifest very similar nasal dimensions (59.4 and 59.7, respectively); however,
while the high index in the Nubian group may be explained by Negroid gene flow into the
population, the reason for such a high value in a European group is unknown.
quote:Bernal is indeed a crackpot, and a substantial body of literature has emerged that thoroughly discredits his absurd claims (including black scholars). Nevertheless, this does not negate the fact that historians do acknowledge the presence of Egyptian or Middle Eastern influences in pre-classical Greece. However, these influences are sometimes exaggerated by certain fringe groups for socio-political motives.
Originally posted by Swenet:
That's what academics and their wikipedia parrots say to tarnish Bernal and make him seem like a crackpot who got his ideas from Greek mythology and Hellenic Egyptophiles who were eager to ascribe the origin of their culture to Egyptians. The same comment is made on the Bernal wiki page. Basically, it goes like this:
"Of course there is no evidence of Africans in the Aegean, or we, the experts, would have found it already".
--Anthropology 'experts' who can't do anthropology
In the meantime they're avoiding relevant Aegean skeletal remains, that should have been tested for ancient DNA by now:
quote:Artificial Skull Treatment in the PPNB Period: Nahal Hemar
The Nea Nikomedeia from Greece [n=4] and Nubia 117 from
southern Egypt manifest very similar nasal dimensions (59.4 and 59.7, respectively); however,
while the high index in the Nubian group may be explained by Negroid gene flow into the
population, the reason for such a high value in a European group is unknown.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272719127_Artificial_Skull_Treatment_in_the_PPNB_Period_Nahal_Hemar
Notice I said relevant remains, as the scientific establishment is not averse to dubious sampling practices when they set out to debunk people. We've seen the bait and switch in 2015 when they announced genetic tests on Natufians to evaluate the long tradition of African ancestry in some branches of this population, but then they proceeded to test samples from the 21st century that are not from the same excavations or even the same sites, as the ones Garrod and her colleagues described in the 20th century.
quote:Would be nice if I could get photos of the Nea Nikomedeia skeletal remains. That said, I looked up Y-DNA haplogroups for ANF, and so far they don’t appear to have that much E1b1. So it may be that there was indeed another layer of African ancestry in Nea Nikomedeia in addition to that shared by ANF.
Originally posted by Swenet:
You be the judge. Latest update I know of, on that subject.
A new topology of the human Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) revealed through the use of newly characterized binary polymorphisms
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21253605/
.
quote:Bummer.
Attempts were made to detect ancient DNA (aDNA) in samples of 88 human skeletons from eight Neolithic and Bronze Age sites in Greece and Crete. Ancient DNA was absent in specimens from Nea Nikomedia, Lerna, Karaviádena (Zakro), Antron Grave Circle A and Mycenae Grave Circle A.
quote:You seem to mix up several things and your approach is highly conjectural. You transition from discussing an early Neolithic population to a testimony from the 5th century BC, introducing linguistic concepts along the way. Notably, you dismiss recent DNA research related to early European farmers, Minoans, Mycenians, Caucasians, and other groups, deeming it irrelevant.
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Antalas
I never said sampling bias is to blame. I said, that Bernal's critics have a dishonest habit of avoiding skeletal remains that have a tradition of being described as resembling Egyptians, and then using entirely different samples as proxies, to settle the issue of an African presence in the Aegean. Surely you can see this is more than an issue of ordinary sample bias (which does not involve ignoring samples that are directly relevant to settling this issue).
Don't play your whac-a-mole forum games Antalas, where you ask me evidence, only to duck the gist of my post and talk about Bernal and irrelevant Greek samples.
It's a simple question. Why has this sample (n=4) not been tested for aDNA, and why is it ignored in these conversations? Don't come back posting irrelevant "multiple Greek genomes have been published" because, as you can see on the dendrogram below, you can't use random Greek samples to settle this issue, as they don't all have this affinity.
The Minoans: demography, physical variations and affinities
https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1317580/1/252024_vol1.pdf
If you come back with any more "we have ancient Minoan samples now", I'll just chalk it up to trolling, no different from those establishment parrots on Bernal's wiki page.
quote:Total lies. I've not posted linguistic evidence, nor have I posted "testimony". But I do notice you cut out that dendrogram from your post. It must hurt your eyes knowing the implications and that it debunks much of what you've been saying on this forum.
Originally posted by Antalas:
You seem to mix up several things and your approach is highly conjectural. You transition from discussing an early Neolithic population to a testimony from the 5th century BC, introducing linguistic concepts along the way.
quote:All these populations you mention, are on that dendrogram, and the N. Nikomedea sample in question, does not cluster with them. So, why would I go along with your distractions about these samples' genetics, when we have their skeletal remains, and the Nea Nikomedea sample still clusters apart, and with Africans?
Originally posted by Antalas:
Notably, you dismiss recent DNA research related to early European farmers, Minoans, Mycenians, Caucasians, and other groups, deeming it irrelevant.
quote:You asked for evidence and you got it. The issue of whether Afroasiatic speakers formed lasting extensively documented communities is another issue than what you've initially asked me, and it's irrelevant, because, for all your talk about backmigrants in North Africa, you can't point to the actual migrants forming lasting communities, either. Where, for instance, are the mtDNA U6 backmigrants? Where are the Phoenicians and the Vandals in the Maghreb? The fact that we don't have them documented down to the formation of multi-generation communities, doesn't mean they weren't there.
However, my earlier point remains unchanged: even if we were to assume that the Nea Nikomedia samples represent some form of African admixture or early African settlers, our knowledge about them and their impact on the region's civilizations is limited. The paper you shared underscores that these samples are outliers, not indicative of a well-established, homogeneous community that significantly influenced subsequent civilizations in the area.
quote:Is "Afro-Asiatic" supposed to be a racial label now ? Herodotus' description of Colchians isn't an ancient testimony ? Why would the dendrogram hurt me ? As your paper points out, these samples are outliers, much like individuals with genetic similarities to me were discovered in Spain or Italy. However, you don't find me making unfounded assertions based on such findings. Your illustration is even more absurd, as it reaches back to the early Neolithic period, and no subsequent population in that geographic region exhibits any form of "African" admixture.
Originally posted by Swenet:
Total lies. I've not posted linguistic evidence, nor have I posted "testimony". But I do notice you cut out that dendrogram from your post. It must hurt your eyes knowing the implications and that it debunks much of what you've been saying on this forum.
quote:I asked for evidence of a historical "Afro-Asiatic" influence in this region, encompassing the Caucasus, yet your response only presented an isolated population from the early Neolithic period. Furthermore, who has refuted the idea that some Africans might have settled in Eurasia ? My inquiry was aimed at challenging Bernal's position, which encompasses far more than mere settlements.
Originally posted by Swenet: You asked for evidence and you got it. The issue of whether Afroasiatic speakers formed lasting extensively documented communities is another issue than what you've initially asked me, and it's irrelevant, because, for all your talk about backmigrants in North Africa, you can't point to the actual migrants forming lasting communities, either. Where, for instance, are the mtDNA U6 backmigrants? Where are the Phoenicians and the Vandals in the Maghreb? The fact that we don't have them documented down to the formation of multi-generation communities, doesn't mean they weren't there.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:The People
[..] Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean type F) average but
with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected
(all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region); beside this modal trend (quite
comparable to later Lower Egyptians) there is robust Basic White (A2, A3) and massive Alpine
(C3), apparently both of European Upper Paleolithic descent, and some Iranian traits (Angel, in press).
quote:FWIW, having just checked the Brace 2005 PCAs, the pooled Nea Nikomedeia sample does still plot rather close to the ancient North African samples, even if those four specimens you mentioned show more distinctly North African features than the rest.
Originally posted by Swenet:
BTW, the larger Nea Nikomedea sample is used in Brace et al 2005 , and people can see where it clusters in that paper compared to Egyptians/Africans and other early farmers. It's also commented on in Lawrence Angel's work, where he says the entire sample looks like Lower Egyptians. But, like I said, this is the entire sample, not the initial n=4.
quote:One sample (NEA3) had mtDNA haplogroup K1a2c
Highlights
-European HGs diverged from SW Asian HGs during the LGM
-Low genetic diversity of European HGs is due to a strong LGM demographic bottleneck
-Ancestors of western early farmers emerged after repeated post-LGM admixtures
-EFs strongly diverged from SW Asians during their
expansion through Anatolia
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:You asked for evidence and you got it. The issue of whether Afroasiatic speakers formed lasting extensively documented communities is another issue than what you've initially asked me, and it's irrelevant, because, for all your talk about backmigrants in North Africa, you can't point to the actual migrants forming lasting communities, either. Where, for instance, are the mtDNA U6 backmigrants? Where are the Phoenicians and the Vandals in the Maghreb? The fact that we don't have them documented down to the formation of multi-generation communities, doesn't mean they weren't there.
However, my earlier point remains unchanged: even if we were to assume that the Nea Nikomedia samples represent some form of African admixture or early African settlers, our knowledge about them and their impact on the region's civilizations is limited. The paper you shared underscores that these samples are outliers, not indicative of a well-established, homogeneous community that significantly influenced subsequent civilizations in the area.
quote:I have worked some stints in a couple of museums, whereof some had some Aegean objects. I have been in Greece, visited several museums there and talked to people who have researched different aspects of ancient Aegean culture, but I have not heard about they having hidden, or got instructions from authorities to hide, some artwork, especially out of ideological reasons. But of course as a general rule among museums just a minor part of all objects are exhibited, often due to lack of space in the exhibition locales but also because some objects are too fragile to be handled more than necessarily, or in some case they are too sensitive to light, or dry air or other factors so they must be protected in special magazines. Many are also in small pieces so there is not so much to show.
Posted by Djehuti
There are already several threads on ancient Aegean artwork but unfortunately for some unknown reason most of that artwork is unavailable to the public even on the internet. Or perhaps the reason is because the authorities don't want such artwork made to the public for the reasons above.
quote:Wouldn't surprise me. Anthropology is filled with people who secretly hate anthropology. When you accept the Africanity of Afroasiatic, but reject that Afroasiatic speakers would have to have been present to change the Middle Eastern languages to Semitic (just see the denial in this thread), I don't know what else to call that, other than hating science and liking academic dysfunction.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
There are already several threads on ancient Aegean artwork but unfortunately for some unknown reason most of that artwork is unavailable to the public even on the internet. Or perhaps the reason is because the authorities don't want such artwork made to the public for the reasons above.
quote:I do apologize! I was thinking about the fair use policy of other platforms. It won't happen again and I apologize to Antalas if it caused any offense.
Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
@Djehuti
Posting member's pictures without there permission is NOT allowed DJ. You and others wouldn't want people doing it to you. I always liked you and so I'll let this slide.
But everyone here again posting members pictures is NOT repeat NOT allowed!
quote:Its no worries. Just saying none of us would like our pictures posted without our permission. I know I won't.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:I do apologize! I was thinking about the fair use policy of other platforms. It won't happen again and I apologize to Antalas if it caused any offense.
Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
@Djehuti
Posting member's pictures without there permission is NOT allowed DJ. You and others wouldn't want people doing it to you. I always liked you and so I'll let this slide.
But everyone here again posting members pictures is NOT repeat NOT allowed!
quote:I don't disagree with your assessment above. By "authorities" I don't mean the owners of the museums or even private collectors themselves per say. Perhaps it is due to the problem of funding since it seems a lot more is done to document and digitize ancient Egyptian artwork than those of ancient Aegean. I've seen more Aegean fresco pictures in books than I have on the internet though I do have my suspicions. As I've said many times before, the only place where I've seen the extensive murals of Knossos are in the waiting halls of the 'Poseidon's Fury' ride in Universal Studios theme park in Florida. It was an exact duplicate of the one in Crete! So if they could do that in a theme park I don't know why they can't make those murals available in the internet.
Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
I have worked some stints in a couple of museums, whereof some had some Aegean objects. I have been in Greece, visited several museums there and talked to people who have researched different aspects of ancient Aegean culture, but I have not heard about they having hidden, or got instructions from authorities to hide, some artwork, especially out of ideological reasons. But of course as a general rule among museums just a minor part of all objects are exhibited, often due to lack of space in the exhibition locales but also because some objects are too fragile to be handled more than necessarily, or in some case they are too sensitive to light, or dry air or other factors so they must be protected in special magazines. Many are also in small pieces so there is not so much to show.
Then it is always a question about which objects that shall be exhibited, even among objects that are possible to exhibit. And that can maybe be subject to some subconsious bias.
When it comes to human remains the policy, at least up here where I live is that one shall be very careful exhibiting such, since there are ethical problems. Also the handling of ritual or religious objects can be a sensitive matter. So deciding which objects shall be available can sometimes be complicated.
When it concerns availability online, many museums have not digitalized their material, and some avoid to post photos online because of copyright issues. Sometimes pictures are not made available online out of fear of theft of certain objects.
quote:Yeah, I learned years ago that folks will jump through all kinds of mental gymnastics when ancient authors contradict their ideologies. Herodotus is one of them and his writings were discussed several times before including here: What Herodotus got right and wrong
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Djehuti
Someone did the whole "it's doubtful Herodotus ever visited Egypt and Colchis" routine, to undermine the credibility of ancient anthro texts, which then led to me mentioning Bernal as someone who has exposed these academic objections as relatively recent revisionism, which then called for some evidence to support that. But you're right, the focus should be on ancient texts.
quote:I know first hand from my college days how anthropology departments house many ideologues, some of whom have ideologies that are not much different from the Nazi Ahnenerbe! For example, I even had a professor who was a Solutreanist who believed Kennewick Man to be a lost Nordic ancestor! LOL The old guy even wore his hair long in Native American style even though he claims to be of pure Scandinavian descent.
Wouldn't surprise me. Anthropology is filled with people who secretly hate anthropology. When you accept the Africanity of Afroasiatic, but reject that Afroasiatic speakers would have to have been present to change the Middle Eastern languages to Semitic (just see the denial in this thread), I don't know what else to call that, other than hating science and liking academic dysfunction.
quote:Rather surprised that guy got to be a professor. In my own experience, most fully credentialed anthropologists would more likely err on the progressive or "woke" side. They wouldn't dare endorse a narrative that claims White people beat Native Americans' ancestors to the Americas.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I know first hand from my college days how anthropology departments house many ideologues, some of whom have ideologies that are not much different from the Nazi Ahnenerbe! For example, I even had a professor who was a Solutreanist who believed Kennewick Man to be a lost Nordic ancestor! LOL The old guy even wore his hair long in Native American style even though he claims to be of pure Scandinavian descent.
quote:Funding is also always a factor in the museum world (and in the antiquarian world overall), that is one of the things people who work there most complain over, also up here in Sweden. In Greece funding also seems a bit shaky sometimes. That goes for all kinds of projects.
Posted by Djehuti
I don't disagree with your assessment above. By "authorities" I don't mean the owners of the museums or even private collectors themselves per say. Perhaps it is due to the problem of funding since it seems a lot more is done to document and digitize ancient Egyptian artwork than those of ancient Aegean. I've seen more Aegean fresco pictures in books than I have on the internet though I do have my suspicions. As I've said many times before, the only place where I've seen the extensive murals of Knossos are in the waiting halls of the 'Poseidon's Fury' ride in Universal Studios theme park in Florida. It was an exact duplicate of the one in Crete! So if they could do that in a theme park I don't know why they can't make those murals available in the internet.
quote:I think those kind of fanatics exists on both sides in the debates about the skin color of ancient Egyptians and other peoples. I have been in groups on the net where so called wabos (wanna be aboriginals) and Afrocentric extremists have harassed Native Americans who just wanted to defend their cultures. And some of the claims some of those extremists forwarded are sometimes so hilarious that one wonders if they really take their own claims seriously.
Originally posted by Brandon
That being said, I do think the topic attracts a lot of amateurs with questionable opinions and agendas. We all know how Eurocentric a lot of the armchair anthropologists you find online (both in forums and on social media) tend to be. In fact, that's often the case with fandoms built around the sciences (e.g. you won't believe how toxic the paleontology fandom can be, although that's off topic for this thread). Academics are far from perfect, of course, but amateur science nerds can be absolutely nuts sometimes.
quote:The debate about the credibility of ancient writers is an old one that is still going on. Also up here we have debates about for example Tacitus Germania and how useful it really is for understanding the history, ethnography and demography of the ancient Germanic tribes.
Originally posted by Askia_The_Great
I always found it crazy how ancient writers who would've lived during that time and would've seen Egyptians are boldly dismissed even in academia. Its to the point that historians like Herodotus are not just seen as "afrocentric" but are flat out vilified!
quote:Thanks for that text. Did you notice that post-Minoan - Sedment cluster? It only happens in the male dendrogram (making it stand out, all the more). I'd have to look into it more closely to really form an opinion on what that cluster is about, but based on the the date ('post-Minoan') it could possibly relate to the Hellenic memory of Danaos as a patriarch of African settlers in the Aegean.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
And here is an interesting passage from Aeschylus's play 'The Suppliant Maidens' that Tukukler first cited..
A native of Argos, Greece makes this descriptive remark about the Libyan Dainades:
O stranger maids, I may not trust this word,
That ye have share in this our Argive race.
No likeness of our country do ye bear,
But semblance as of Libyan womankind.
Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow;
Yea, and the Cyprian stamp, in female forms,
Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same.
And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids
Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie,
And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing
Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard;
And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids
Called Amazons: to these, if bows ye bare,
I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet,
That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.
Note all the peoples the Argive listed who match the dark/black appearance of the Dainades!
quote:It's funny to see you say that because I know the type, as well as some related types with predatory interests in Native American cultures.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I know first hand from my college days how anthropology departments house many ideologues, some of whom have ideologies that are not much different from the Nazi Ahnenerbe! For example, I even had a professor who was a Solutreanist who believed Kennewick Man to be a lost Nordic ancestor! LOL The old guy even wore his hair long in Native American style even though he claims to be of pure Scandinavian descent.
quote:That's the thing. We never hear about what the actual situation was in the Aegean whether Neolithic or Bronze Age. When it comes to legends, we only hear about the Homeric Iliad and Odyssey but never about the 'Suppliant Maidens' or the lost epic Aethiopica. Speaking of which note how in the description of the Danaide, reference is made not only to Libyans and Nilotes, but Cyprians of Cyprus and Indians and Aethiopians, the latter are said to reside next to Indians which suggests this is NOT African Ethiopia but somewhere close to India whose people ride camels, mules, and horses. This sounds like Arabia. Not to mention the cannibalistic Amazons of Tritonis (the Maghreb).
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Thanks for that text. Did you notice that post-Minoan - Sedment cluster? It only happens in the male dendrogram (making it stand out, all the more). I'd have to look into it more closely to really form an opinion on what that cluster is about, but based on the the date ('post-Minoan') it could possibly relate to the Hellenic memory of Danaos as a patriarch of African settlers in the Aegean.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
And here is an interesting passage from Aeschylus's play 'The Suppliant Maidens' that Tukukler first cited..
A native of Argos, Greece makes this descriptive remark about the Libyan Dainades:
O stranger maids, I may not trust this word,
That ye have share in this our Argive race.
No likeness of our country do ye bear,
But semblance as of Libyan womankind.
Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow;
Yea, and the Cyprian stamp, in female forms,
Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same.
And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids
Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie,
And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing
Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard;
And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids
Called Amazons: to these, if bows ye bare,
I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet,
That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.
Note all the peoples the Argive listed who match the dark/black appearance of the Dainades!
quote:As far as the Solutrean Hypothesis, I'm glad that's resolved now. Though I do note that the issue was properly resolved with the aDNA testing of the actual samples that were involved in the controversy (ie Kennewick Man himself, not some other sample that was never considered to have Euro features). This is how it's supposed to be done.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yeah, that's the thing when Eurocentrism is not as "aggressive" or overt like a Nazi or something, it tends to get ignored. During my time as an undergrad student in the anthropology department I was well aware of the Solutrean Hypothesis and the type of mentality it entailed while other students were totally oblivious. I try to be as objective as I can about the situation and imagine how people would react if a black professor started dressing as a Meso-American person due to the Afro-Olmec Hypothesis. Suffice to say I have NEVER heard of the latter situation only the Pro-Solutrean professors.
quote:Does not surprise me. The proto-anthro portions of the Old Testament have listed under Mizraim, tribes that modern scholars identify as linked to Cyprus and Crete.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
That's the thing. We never hear about what the actual situation was in the Aegean whether Neolithic or Bronze Age. When it comes to legends, we only hear about the Homeric Iliad and Odyssey but never about the 'Suppliant Maidens' or the lost epic Aethiopica. Speaking of which note how in the description of the Danaide, reference is made not only to Libyans and Nilotes, but Cyprians of Cyprus and Indians and Aethiopians, the latter are said to reside next to Indians which suggests this is NOT African Ethiopia but somewhere close to India whose people ride camels, mules, and horses. This sounds like Arabia. Not to mention the cannibalistic Amazons of Tritonis (the Maghreb).
quote:Sally Ann-Ashton is driven by political motives and is far from being impartial. She describes her own blog as " African Centred Egyptology ". Literally 3/4 of her articles if not more revolve around the topics of race and skin color. She appears to have a rather unusual fixation on blacks.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton of the Fitzwilliam Museum whom Ausar-Imhotep interviewed whose specialty was 'Classics' (Greco-Roman period) always said that there was a disconnect between her sub-field and the rest of Egyptology. I mean from what I can tell it was always a given the "black" identity of the Egyptians according to the Greeks and Romans yet there seems to be little to no talk about it. Dr. Ashton says that she and her peers were taught to never make a big deal about it which is strange considering that outside of her department "race" has always been an issue when it comes to the Egyptians.
To be honest I get sick and tired of the racial issue myself but it seems the Eurasiocentrics are hellbent on white-washing all of the Nile Valley not just Egypt.
quote:Right! So whites classifying Africans as "caucasoid" or "white" for decades is no issue but when a few whites dare to say that's wrong, they were blacks then they have an "unusual fixation on blacks". LMAO
Originally posted by Thereal:
quote:
Antalas wrote:
Sally Ann-Ashton is driven by political motives and is far from being impartial. She describes her own blog as " African Centred Egyptology ". Literally 3/4 of her articles if not more revolve around the topics of race and skin color. She appears to have a rather unusual fixation on blacks
Is that "pot calling the kettle Black?" Oops! I mean Afrocentric, I mean Black washing. Damn! I mean something Sub Sahara African.🙄🙄🙄
quote:https://www.biblia.work/dictionaries/caphtor/
Caphtor
CAPHTOR.The region whence the Philistines came to Palestine (Amo 9:7, Jer 47:4). Hence in Deu 2:23 Caphtorim means the Philistines. In Gen 10:14 Caphtorim is used of the country itself in place of Caphtor; it should be placed in the text immediately after Casluhim. Many identifications of Caphtor have been attempted. The favourite theory has been that it means the island of Crete (cf. Cherethites). Next in favour is the view that Caphtor was the coast of the Egyptian Delta. It has also been identified with Cyprus. The correct theory is suggested by inscriptions of Ramses III. of Egypt (c [Note: circa, about.] . b.c. 1200), who tells of his having repelled a great invasion by enemies who had entered Syria and Palestine from the north. The leaders of these barbarians were called Purusati, which (Egyp. r being Sem. l) is equivalent to the Heh. Pelisht. Connecting these facts with the circumstance that the southern coast of Asia Minor, more especially Cilicia, was called Kefto or Kafto in the Egyptian inscriptions, it appears very probable that this Kafto and Caphtor are identical. The further conjecture might be hazarded that the writing of the Hebrew waw as a vowel-letter in an original Kafto gave rise to the additional rsh. Compare the similar case Ashkenaz.
quote:https://www.biblia.work/dictionaries/caphtor/
The migration of the Philistines is mentioned or alluded to in all the passages speaking of Caphtor or the Caphtorim. It thus appears to have been an event of great importance, and this supposition receives support from the statement in Amos. In the lists of Genesis and Chronicles, as the text now stands, the Philistines are said to have come forth from the Casluhim ‘the Casluhim, whence came forth the Philistines and the Caphtorim’ where the Hebrews forbids us to suppose that the Philistines and Caphtorim both came from the Casluhim. Here there seems to have been a transposition, for the other passages are as explicit, or more so, and their form does not admit of this explanation. The period of the migration must have been very remote, since the Philistines were already established in Palestine in Abraham’s time (Gen 21:32; Gen 21:34).
The evidence of the Egyptian monuments, which is indirect tends to the same conclusion, but takes us yet farther back in time. It leads us to suppose that the Philistines and kindred nations were cognate to the Egyptians, but so different from them in manners that they must have separated before the character and institutions of the latter had attained that development in which they continued throughout the period to which their monuments belong. We find from the sculptures of Rameses III at Medinet Ab that the Egyptians, about 1200 B.C., were at war with the Philistines, the Tok-karu, and the Shayratana of the Sea, and that other Shayratana served them as mercenaries.: The Philistines and Tok-karu were physically cognate, and had the same distinctive dress; the Tokkaru and Shayratana were also physically cognate, and fought together in the same ships. There is reason to believe that the Tok-karu are the Carians, and the Shayratana have been held to be the Cherethim of the Bible and the earlier Cretans of the Greeks, inhabiting Crete, and probably the coast of Palestine also (Encyclop. Brit. s.v. Egypt, p. 462). All bear a greater resemblance to the Egyptians than does any other group of foreign peoples represented in their sculptures. This evidence points, therefore, to the spread of a seafaring race cognate to the Egyptians at a very remote time. Their origin is not alone spoken of in the record of the migration of the Philistines, but in the tradition of the Phoenicians that they came from the Erythraean Sea, SEE ARABIA, and we must look for the primeval seat of the whole race on the coasts of Arabia and Africa, where all ancient authorities lead us mainly to place the Cushites and the Ethiopians. SEE CUSH.
The difference of the Philistines from the Egyptians in dress and manners is, as we have seen, evident on the Egyptian monuments. From the Bible we learn that their laws and religion were likewise different from those of Egypt, and we may therefore consider our previous supposition as to the time of the separation of the peoples to which they belong to be positively true in their particular case. It is probable that they left Caphtor not long after the first arrival of the Mizraite tribes, while they had not yet attained that attachment to the soil that afterward so eminently characterized the descendants of those which formed the Egyptian nation. The words of the prophet Amos (9:7) seem to indicate a deliverance of the Philistines from bondage. The mention of the Ethiopians there is worthy of note: they are perhaps spoken of as a degraded people. The intention appears to be to show that Israel was not the only nation which had been providentially led from one country to another where it might settle, and the interposition would seem to imply oppression preceding the migration. It may be remarked that Manetho speaks of a revolt and return to allegiance of the Libyans, probably the Lehalim, or Lubim, from whose name Libya, etc., certainly came, in the reign of the first king of the third dynasty, Necherphs or Necherchis, in the earliest age of Egyptian history, B.C. cir. 2600 (Cory, Anc. Frao. 2d ed. p. 100, 101).” SEE PHILISTINE.
quote:Investigating the Nile Delta’s First Settlements: Excavations at Tell el-Samara 2016-2019 BIFAO 2022
This article provides an overview of the first results from the archaeological fieldwork conducted at Tell el-Samara by a joint IFAO and Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities mission. Located in the eastern Nile Delta, Tell el-Samara was a settlement inhabited from the late 5h millennium BCE to the end of the Early Dynastic period. The renewed archaeological investigations on the tell have uncovered the remains of one of the most ancient villages known so far in Egypt—providing detailed insights into the onset of Neolithic economy and sedentary village life in Lower Egypt. They have also revealed a continuous occupation sequence from the Neolithic period to the advent of the 1st Dynasty, which provides relevant data on the emergence and further development of a regional culture in the Nile Delta prior to the rise of a monarchy and the political unification of Egypt at the turn of the fourth and 3rd millennium BCE.
quote:The man on the right has completely different facial features than what is shown in the painting.
Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Here is a comparison between an ancient Egyptian painting and a modern farmer from outside Cairo. Not very different. So the idea that the ancient Egyptians just disappeared and was replaced by "white" invaders do not hold up. There have occurred mixing with immigrating and invading peoples but there are still people who seem to correspond with the ancient ones.
Also one could caution about making too many claims about todays North African populations and their phenotypes without having visited any of those countries. It is something one see a lot on the internet among people who in a confident tone tell us how North Africans look like. It can be hard to get a good overview based only on books or information from the net.
I have myself seen a lot of claims on the net that do not correspond at all with what I have seen in different countries. One claim I remember is that the Terracotta Warriors in Xían, China should depict black people and originally been painted black. I have seen them, some of them in close up and have them explained by Chinese archaeologists so those crazy claims on the net can only come from people who never visited China or saw those statues (or people who did but choose to lie about it).
quote:You can find different facial features also in todays Egypt. And you can find facial features in ancient paintings that correspond with todays Egyptians. All Egyptians in antiquity did not look the same, and all Egyptians today do not look the same either. Just visit a museum with Egyptian sculptures and you can see for yourself. One can find statues which correspond with Egyptians today.
Originally posted by Tazarah:
quote:The man on the right has completely different facial features than what is shown in the painting.
Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Here is a comparison between an ancient Egyptian painting and a modern farmer from outside Cairo. Not very different. So the idea that the ancient Egyptians just disappeared and was replaced by "white" invaders do not hold up. There have occurred mixing with immigrating and invading peoples but there are still people who seem to correspond with the ancient ones.
Also one could caution about making too many claims about todays North African populations and their phenotypes without having visited any of those countries. It is something one see a lot on the internet among people who in a confident tone tell us how North Africans look like. It can be hard to get a good overview based only on books or information from the net.
I have myself seen a lot of claims on the net that do not correspond at all with what I have seen in different countries. One claim I remember is that the Terracotta Warriors in Xían, China should depict black people and originally been painted black. I have seen them, some of them in close up and have them explained by Chinese archaeologists so those crazy claims on the net can only come from people who never visited China or saw those statues (or people who did but choose to lie about it).
quote:"Colorline" is not a word and "color line" strongly connotes racial segregation which did not apply to North Africa and the term "Classical North Africa" is also dubious. The word "Classical" strongly implies Greco-Roman but too vaguely. If the intent is "color lines in Greek and Roman colonies in North Africa" that should be spelled out
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Colorlines in Classical North Africa
Anyway, Dr. Futo like many other Classicists make it clear that the so-called 'colorline' separating 'white' from 'black' did not begin "south of the Sahara" as many Euronuts would have everyone believe but began in the Mediterranean Sea.
quote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Futo_Kennedy
Merriam-Webster Dictionary
color line
noun
variants US color line or British colour line
pluralcolor lines
: a set of societal or legal barriers that segregates people of color from white people (as by restricting social interaction or requiring separate facilities) and prevents people of color from exercising the same rights and accessing the same opportunities as white people —usually used with the
His father … had grown up in California with Jackie Robinson, who broke the color line in Major League Baseball.
—Maureen O'Donnell
quote:So what?! They're both 'black' people by today's standards. If you're hung up on something as trivial as facial features then you're going to lose to the Euronut warriors.
Originally posted by Tazarah:
The man on the right has completely different facial features than what is shown in the painting.
quote:The skeletal remains of the Delta have already been classified as African.
Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
In a future where more extensive comparative genetic studies can be conducted in Egypt, we may find out more details about different ancestry and different groups relatedness to each other. For example which differences could one see in the genetics of people in upper Egypt and people in the Delta? There is work being done in the Delta where Neolithic sites are found and excavated. Also skeletons are found. But it seems no genetic studies have been done yet. We will see if Egyptian authorities will allow such studies in the future.
quote:Investigating the Nile Delta’s First Settlements: Excavations at Tell el-Samara 2016-2019 BIFAO 2022
This article provides an overview of the first results from the archaeological fieldwork conducted at Tell el-Samara by a joint IFAO and Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities mission. Located in the eastern Nile Delta, Tell el-Samara was a settlement inhabited from the late 5h millennium BCE to the end of the Early Dynastic period. The renewed archaeological investigations on the tell have uncovered the remains of one of the most ancient villages known so far in Egypt—providing detailed insights into the onset of Neolithic economy and sedentary village life in Lower Egypt. They have also revealed a continuous occupation sequence from the Neolithic period to the advent of the 1st Dynasty, which provides relevant data on the emergence and further development of a regional culture in the Nile Delta prior to the rise of a monarchy and the political unification of Egypt at the turn of the fourth and 3rd millennium BCE.
Oldest Neolithic village in Egypt’s Nile Delta uncovered - Egypt Independent 2018
quote:It's not strange at all if one remembers that there was greater genetic diversity among human populations before the Holocene than today and such was likely the case as it pertains to African populations.
That's a 3D interactive PCA (Principal Component Analysis) based on autosomal SNPs made by David Wesolowski who authors the Eurogenes genome blog and ancestry project. What's particularly interesting to me about it are the PCA positions of the Natufians and the Neolithic Levantines... With the *former group pulling southwards toward African populations such as North, East & West-Central Africans.*
Eurogenes ANE K7
ENF: 77%
WHG-UHG: 16%
East African: 8%
Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer
Middle Eastern Herder: 64%
Mediterranean Farmer: 30%
East African Pastoralist: 7%
Eurogenes K12b
Southwest Asian: 54%
Mediterranean: 38%
East African: 8%
That pull along with the above ADMIXTURE results (via Gedmatch) of one Natufian seem to contradict what Lazaridis et al. was saying about the Natufians lacking African admixture but I would caution against using modern PCA positions (like those of Bedouins) and, of course, modern ADMIXTURE runs (with modern clusters based on modern genetic diversity) to gauge how "African" or "Eurasian/Out-of-Africa" an ~11,000-14,000 year old population was.
I.e. These Natufians are, of course, not "Southwest Asian" + "Mediterranean" but, instead, they're just showing the greatest affinity for these modern clusters. As in, populations probably quite like them to some degree; contributed to the formation of clusters like Southwest Asian & Mediterranean. But, it's still strange that they'd show such an affinity for an African cluster like the East African one.
quote:No that egyptian would be seen as "arab" by most europeans and blacks living in the West.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
The man on the right has completely different facial features than what is shown in the painting. So what?! They're both 'black' people by today's standards. If you're hung up on something as trivial as facial features then you're going to lose to the Euronut warriors.
quote:As usual, you are twisting the authors' statements. You are essentially implying the existence of a single, uniform "African" pattern, even though both you and I are well aware of the significant morphological differences between ancient NAs and SSAs.
Originally posted by Djehuti: The skeletal remains of the Delta have already been classified as African.
..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.
[Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation". (2005) Routledge. p.52-60]
quote:P. Smith, The Palaeo-Biological evidence for admixture between populations in the southern levant and Egypt in the fourth to third millenia BCE, 2002
The Merimde specimens were tall, with a mean femur length in males of 47.1 cms, compared to 43.6cm at Maadi and 44.7 cm at Byblos (Fig 6.2). They also had long narrow crania, moderately long faces and narrow noses. The last two features distinguish them from Predynastic populations and align them more closely both with later Dynastic populations and with the southern Levant (fig. 6.3). Beck and Klug (1990) described the Maadi and Wadi Digla samples as showing long narrow crania and short faces similar to those of other Predynastic sites in Egypt, but resembling some sites in the Levant in nasal and orbital characteristics.
quote:P. Smith, The Palaeo-Biological evidence for admixture between populations in the southern levant and Egypt in the fourth to third millenia BCE, 2002
Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and Merimde group them with African rather than European populations. [...] reinforcing the impression of an african rather than a levantine affinity.
quote:Brace, C. L. et al. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.
The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat . Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.
quote:https://ehrafarchaeology.yale.edu/traditions/mr60/documents/018
Morphologically, both groups belong to a relatively robust type.…Differences between the Maadi and Wadi Digla series in regard to metric features could not be statistically proven. The results of the supraregional population comparison pointed to similarities with the Palestinian area [Gaza, Israel, the West Bank] in regard to several metric variables …though a clear relationship with Egyptian comparison groups was demonstratable.
quote:Once again, you are providing misleading information to him. These uniparental genetic markers are still present in modern Egypt. Furthermore, the majority of uniparental markers extracted from ancient Egyptian remains are predominantly Eurasian :
Originally posted by Djehuti: As far as genetics is concerned, uniparentals show them to be overwhelmingly African (Y-DNA E-M35 & mt M1 and L2). The only thing left is autosomal DNA which is the only thing left in debate and for obvious reasons. The autosomal DNA shows Natufian/Neolithic Levantine affiliations which many identify as "Eurasian".
quote:https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/9/3/135/htm
However, nearly all of the remains excavated in the Northern part of the continent belong to Eurasian mtDNA lineages [63,67,74,89,90]. [74]). In fact, of the 114 mtDNA genomes now available from northern African ancient human remains, only one belongs to an African lineage (L3 observed in a skeleton from Abusir el-Meleq The deep presence of Eurasian mtDNA lineages in Northern Africa has, therefore, been clearly established with these recent reports and offers further support for the authenticity of the Eurasian mtDNA sequence observed in the Djehutynakht mummy
quote:https://isba9.sciencesconf.org/data/pages/Abstract_Book_ISBA9_2022.pdf
We now focus on widening the geographic scope to give a general overview of the population genetic background, focusing on mitochondrial haplogroups present among the whole Egyptian Nile River Valley. We collected 81 tooth, hair, bone, and soft tissue samples from 14 mummies and 17 skeletal remains. The samples span approximately 4000 years of Egyptian history and originate from six different excavation sites covering the whole length of the Egyptian Nile River Valley. NGS based ancient DNA 8 were applied to reconstruct 18 high-quality mitochondrial genomes from 10 different individuals. The determined mitochondrial haplogroups match the results from our Abusir el-Meleq study . Our results indicate very low rates of modern DNA contamination independent of the tissue type.
quote:https://www.docdroid.net/EC8uFeh/gad-et-al-hawass-fs-final-2020-pdf#page=11
The proposed sibling relationship between Tutankhamun’s parents, KV55 (Akhenaten) and KV35YL, is further supported. The royal lineage is composed of the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b and the mitochondrial haplogroup K. Population genetics point to a common origin at ca. 14. 000–28. 000 years before present locating to the Near East.
quote:https://www.docdroid.net/EC8uFeh/gad-et-al-hawass-fs-final-2020-pdf#page=22
The great-grandfather of Tutankhamun, Yuya, carries a Y-chromosomal signature that could be assigned to the haplogroup G2a. Haplogroup G is an F-affiliated clade (Luis et al. 2004, 532–544; Wood et al. 2005, 867–876), and it is defined by the mutation M201 (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Luis et al. 2004, 532–544; Wood et al. 2005, 867–876; Karafet et al. 2008, 830–838). This clade is not globally abundant, and its prevalence is mainly in the Middle East (highest in Druze), the Mediterranean basin and Caucasus Mountains where it exhibits its maximum frequency (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Karafet et al. 2008, 830–838; Balanovsky et al. 2011, 18255–18259; Lacan et al. 2011, 2905–2920). The pattern of this haplogroup distribution in the Caucasus suggests a Near Eastern origin (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Balanovsky et al. 2011, 18255–18259). The genetic share of the F-affiliated groups (G, H, I, J) is around 40% of the modern Egyptians, with G-M201 representing approximately 9% of the population (Luis et al. 2004, 532–544).
quote:Lmao what you posted literally shows that their african admixture was extremely low ...Modern North Africans literally have more XD
Originally posted by Djehuti: Yet as Ethio-Helix has pointed out:
quote:It's not strange at all if one remembers that there was greater genetic diversity among human populations before the Holocene than today and such was likely the case as it pertains to African populations.
That's a 3D interactive PCA (Principal Component Analysis) based on autosomal SNPs made by David Wesolowski who authors the Eurogenes genome blog and ancestry project. What's particularly interesting to me about it are the PCA positions of the Natufians and the Neolithic Levantines... With the *former group pulling southwards toward African populations such as North, East & West-Central Africans.*
Eurogenes ANE K7
ENF: 77%
WHG-UHG: 16%
East African: 8%
Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer
Middle Eastern Herder: 64%
Mediterranean Farmer: 30%
East African Pastoralist: 7%
Eurogenes K12b
Southwest Asian: 54%
Mediterranean: 38%
East African: 8%
That pull along with the above ADMIXTURE results (via Gedmatch) of one Natufian seem to contradict what Lazaridis et al. was saying about the Natufians lacking African admixture but I would caution against using modern PCA positions (like those of Bedouins) and, of course, modern ADMIXTURE runs (with modern clusters based on modern genetic diversity) to gauge how "African" or "Eurasian/Out-of-Africa" an ~11,000-14,000 year old population was.
I.e. These Natufians are, of course, not "Southwest Asian" + "Mediterranean" but, instead, they're just showing the greatest affinity for these modern clusters. As in, populations probably quite like them to some degree; contributed to the formation of clusters like Southwest Asian & Mediterranean. But, it's still strange that they'd show such an affinity for an African cluster like the East African one.
Remember that ANA (Ancestral North African) was originally mistaken to be "Eurasian" as well. LOL It's only going to be a matter of time that this Natufain/Levantine Neolithic as the only hope left of "Hamitic Hypothesis" fails. [/QB]
quote:Antalas, nobody with moderate intelligence is falling for the the "SSA" a.k.a. IBD Yoruban strawman.
Originally posted by Antalas:
Lmao what you posted literally shows that their african admixture was extremely low ...Modern North Africans literally have more XD
Natufian ancestry peaks in modern day arabs and Natufians didn't cluster with any SSA population :
It seems the only one you're fooling is yourself!
quote:This is a good point you raise here. Myths and legends can sometimes refer to real phenomena, but they shouldn’t always be taken at face value. A vocal number of Native Americans in the US don’t like the idea that their ancestors came from anywhere outside the Americas since that contradicts certain creation myths of theirs. Now, while I can understand why indigenous people might not like condescending White anthropologists contradicting them on their own past, you have to admit Natives had to have come from somewhere outside the Americas if they are human like the rest of us.
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Djehuti
The question of Egyptian self-identity is in my view a complex subject that has a lot of loose ends that would benefit from the excavation of more texts. And even then there may be no guarantee they are going to reflect anthropological reality. For instance, if the phrase T3 Ntr has literal anthro value, parts of Syria (and southern lands on both sides of the Red Sea) could potentially have been considered by AE as ancestral land at some point in their history, by some members of Egyptian society. In that case one would find a self-identity that has drifted from anthropological reality possibly due religious reasons (e.g. they procrured sacred timber and incense from Lebanon). Then there is the unique social organization of Egyptian society around nomes, where different nomes may have had self-identities and myths and legends co-existing even though being in contradiction.
quote:We all have our etiological myths. Even those very same anthropologists have in their textbooks Neanderthals as 'cousins' of AMH, when in reality they are differentiated from Sima de Los Huesos predecessors in having tremendous amounts of sapiens ancestry. Or Ust Ishim possibly having the blue eye mutation at 45ky ago, according to the recent Russian article, which is dangerously close to the 55ky OOA date, indicating it did not originate with WHG and that we may need introgression to explain this trait if that remaining 10ky time window keeps shortening. Etc.
Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:This is a good point you raise here. Myths and legends can sometimes refer to real phenomena, but they shouldn’t always be taken at face value. A vocal number of Native Americans in the US don’t like the idea that their ancestors came from anywhere outside the Americas since that contradicts certain creation myths of theirs. Now, while I can understand why indigenous people might not like condescending White anthropologists contradicting them on their own past, you have to admit Natives had to have come from somewhere outside the Americas if they are human like the rest of us.
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Djehuti
The question of Egyptian self-identity is in my view a complex subject that has a lot of loose ends that would benefit from the excavation of more texts. And even then there may be no guarantee they are going to reflect anthropological reality. For instance, if the phrase T3 Ntr has literal anthro value, parts of Syria (and southern lands on both sides of the Red Sea) could potentially have been considered by AE as ancestral land at some point in their history, by some members of Egyptian society. In that case one would find a self-identity that has drifted from anthropological reality possibly due religious reasons (e.g. they procrured sacred timber and incense from Lebanon). Then there is the unique social organization of Egyptian society around nomes, where different nomes may have had self-identities and myths and legends co-existing even though being in contradiction.
quote:What are you even talking about ? It's quite interesting how you seem to be overlooking all the evidence I've presented. Anyway nobody has denied that Natufians had some "African" admixture. As usual you're employing a straw man argument here. As I mentioned before, their African ancestry is actually quite minimal, even lower than mine XD. They cluster more closely with modern Middle Easterners and even Europeans than SSAs. Yet, you persist in portraying them as if they were more closely related to the latter.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Antalas, nobody with moderate intelligence is falling for the the "SSA" a.k.a. IBD Yoruban strawman.
By your logic then, northeast Siberians (and their Eskimo cousins across the straits) have no East Asian ancestry as well if that is to be identified with Chinese.
LMAO indeed!
quote:I once drew an Aurignacian person with blue eyes, and a criticism I got was that blue eyes in modern humans would have evolved much more recently in the Black Sea area. Finding out that there were blue eyes among UP Eurasians that far back feels vindicating for me. Would be nice to see if its presence in modern Europeans is the result of admixture with another hominin population (Neanderthals, perhaps?).
Originally posted by Swenet:
Or Ust Ishim possibly having the blue eye mutation at 45ky ago, according to the recent Russian article, which is dangerously close to the 55ky OOA date, indicating it did not originate with WHG and that we may need introgression to explain this trait if that remaining 10ky time window keeps shortening. Etc.
quote:It could also be from AMH already in Eurasia who may have interacted with archaics that may have no longer been around by the time mtDNA N moved into Eurasia 55ky ago. The known upper limit of AMH presence in Eurasia is 410ky as indicated by TMRCA of the Neanderthal mtDNA replacement. Since they keep finding them (latest hype is Dragon Man) who knows what archaics, hybrids and AMH survivals were around then.
Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:I once drew an Aurignacian person with blue eyes, and a criticism I got was that blue eyes in modern humans would have evolved much more recently in the Black Sea area. Finding out that there were blue eyes among UP Eurasians that far back feels vindicating for me. Would be nice to see if its presence in modern Europeans is the result of admixture with another hominin population (Neanderthals, perhaps?).
Originally posted by Swenet:
Or Ust Ishim possibly having the blue eye mutation at 45ky ago, according to the recent Russian article, which is dangerously close to the 55ky OOA date, indicating it did not originate with WHG and that we may need introgression to explain this trait if that remaining 10ky time window keeps shortening. Etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Antalas:
Anyway nobody has denied that Natufians had some "African" admixture. As usual you're employing a straw man argument here. As I mentioned before, their African ancestry is actually quite minimal, even lower than mine XD. They cluster more closely with modern Middle Easterners and even Europeans than SSAs. Yet, you persist in portraying them as if they were more closely related to the latter.
quote:A "colorline" is a modern racist concept and you should stop promoting it
Originally posted by Djehuti:
More evidence that so-called "colorlines" were in the Mediterranean itself.
quote:That you don't know what I mean by the post I made on Asian genetic diversity shows that either you are just dumb OR suffering from severe denial. Your pigeonholing African genetic diversity is the same as one claiming that Evenks and Inuit are not Asian because autosomally they are totally different from Chinese. Nobody uses Chinese as representative of East Asian the way Yoruba IDB is used for all Sub-Saharans let alone Africans in general.
Originally posted by Antalas:
What are you even talking about? It's quite interesting how you seem to be overlooking all the evidence I've presented. Anyway nobody has denied that Natufians had some "African" admixture. As usual you're employing a straw man argument here. As I mentioned before, their African ancestry is actually quite minimal, even lower than mine XD. They cluster more closely with modern Middle Easterners and even Europeans than SSAs. Yet, you persist in portraying them as if they were more closely related to the latter.
quote:What does Yoruba have anything to do with this ? Why do you bring south/west african clusters ? This was by no means the focus of my post. It's important to recognize that if two populations are genetically distant, they are indeed genetically differentiated, regardless of their physical resemblances or geographical proximity.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
That you don't know what I mean by the post I made on Asian genetic diversity shows that either you are just dumb OR suffering from severe denial. Your pigeonholing African genetic diversity is the same as one claiming that Evenks and Inuit are not Asian because autosomally they are totally different from Chinese. Nobody uses Chinese as representative of East Asian the way Yoruba IDB is used for all Sub-Saharans let alone Africans in general.
^ Note the wide autosomal distance between black Australasians and black Andamanese despite the close geographic distance. And of course the samples labeled "Africans" on the left corner are actually South Africans with West African between the former and North Africans. So just give up. You lost when you began posting in this forum! LOL
quote:Yes natufians are notably distant from my iberomaurusian ancestors too :
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ "Natufians are notably distant from any African populations." Any?? So now the Moroccan Iberomaurusian and Moroccan EN in your map are not Africans either?!
I suggest you stop posting in this blog or any blog for that matter and seek psychiatric help.
quote:https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/06/11/1800851115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1800851115.sapp.pdf
Although, ADMIXTURE analysis pointed to some relationship between IAM and Levantine aDNA samples, especially the Natufians, this is not supported by FST distances .
quote:Yet they are still much closer to each other than West African Yoruba and Bantu speaking Himba of South Africa!
Originally posted by Antalas:
Yes Natufians are notably distant from my Iberomaurusian ancestors too:
quote:Again you presume "non-African" ancestry when such has yet to be substantiated unless you disagree with the growing consensus that Basal Eurasian is African. You say there is a distinction between Natufians and Africans yet forget the fact that Egyptians share much of the Natufians' ancestry. But of course Egyptians aren't really African either and neither are the Nubians who also share the same ancestry! LMAO
Iberomaurusians appear closer to Natufians primarily due to shared ancestry and their non-African ancestry. You're totally humiliated once again and you can't deny the genetic distinction between Natufians and Africans is undeniable. You won't manipulate and Africanize/blackwash our ancestors to fit your narrative, attempting to appropriate them and dismiss all the genetic and anthropological evidence.
quote:hahaha lmao that's literally the gedmatch version of G25, there is no "Himba" in the Eurogenes database XD
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Yet they are still much closer to each other than West African Yoruba and Bantu speaking Himba of South Africa!
But you have no problem putting both Yoruba and Himba together into a monolithic "Sub-Saharan" grouping!
quote:Once more, this has nothing to do with the topic or the point I am making. Your responses seem to be veering off-topic and quoting irrelevant information, making it appear as if you are contributing to the conversation. It's clear that your position is invalidated, and it's time to acknowledge that. No one here has claimed that SSAs are a genetic monolith, so using a straw man argument doesn't serve your case.
Originally posted by Djehuti: I thought it was made clear to you before but here it is again from Ethio-helix's article Human Genetic Diversity ≠ Discrete or Pure Races:
Nevertheless, I suppose one could argue that certain populations are genuinely "discrete" in that they have not shared certain ancestries in well over 35,000 years. For instance, this can be said about West-Central Africans when compared to East Asians but here things do get a bit dicey as well since, while you can assume they're discrete from one another, they themselves are probably not, to some great extent, "pure" or mostly pure entities.
By that I mean... They too are probably, in some part, the result of admixture rather than mostly or entirely being linear developments from a singular ancestral population which is how the old racialist model might paint things.
For example, the quite diverse mtDNA profiles (simply based on their non-M&N lineages) of groups like Omotic speaking Southwestern Ethiopians, Niger-Congo speaking West-Central Africans and Nilo-Saharan speaking Southern Sudanese people tend to imply that they are probably the result of admixture between distinct pre-historic populations within Africa itself. [note]
Some of these ancestral populations were possibly even as distinct from each other as the San are from modern West-Central Africans (time divergence appears greater than the time-divergence between West-Central Africans and the Han-Chinese, and genetic drift (based on Fst) is comparable to the drift between the Han-Chinese and the English).
**Groups that would count as "Negroids" within Africa should also not be seen as some sort of genetic monolith. They're not**... And even the old racialist model didn't truly imply as much. There's often a West-Central African cluster ("Niger-Congo" above) and an East African-cluster ("Nilo-Saharan" above) in ADMIXTURE runs, for instance. The Fst between these two clusters, as an example, is a little over 1/2 the Fst between the East Asian and European clusters above.
Also, based on Haplotypic data, the time divergence between some of these "African" ancestries (i.e. the African elements in Somalis and the African elements in Yorubas) implies they possibly haven't shared ancestry in over 30,000-40,000 years or so which is comparable to the, so far, supposed time-divergence between ENAs and the ancestors of European Hunter-Gatherers.
quote:It's evident that you find the notion of Eurasian settlement in Africa during that early period unsettling because it challenges the concept of a historically black North Africa. I don't have the inclination or time to craft an extensive argument defending the presence of such admixture. Additionally, the mention of Basal Eurasian seems irrelevant, as they predate the population in question by at least 40k years. Instead, I'll simplify my point with just one image :
Originally posted by Djehuti: Iberomaurusians appear closer to Natufians primarily due to shared ancestry and their non-African ancestry. You're totally humiliated once again and you can't deny the genetic distinction between Natufians and Africans is undeniable. You won't manipulate and Africanize/blackwash our ancestors to fit your narrative, attempting to appropriate them and dismiss all the genetic and anthropological evidence. Again you presume "non-African" ancestry when such has yet to be substantiated unless you disagree with the growing consensus that Basal Eurasian is African. You say there is a distinction between Natufians and Africans yet forget the fact that Egyptians share much of the Natufians' ancestry. But of course Egyptians aren't really African either and neither are the Nubians who also share the same ancestry! LMAO
So no I don't have to "manipulate" anything the way you desperately attempt to distort the findings. No need for me to "Africanize" what is already African and again with that absurd oxymoronic term of "blackwash". You can't wash something "black" but WHITE which is what you are constantly doing. The accurate phrase is 'paint black'. Which I don't have to do because the genetics also show the populations you speak of to be highly melanated. [/QB]
quote:yes but what about the Y-DNA at Taforalt?
Originally posted by Antalas:
It's funny how our ancient African ancestors from the MSA managed to colonize diverse regions worldwide, yet Djehuti finds it implausible that Eurasians could have settled in Northeast Africa via the Sinai and Nile corridor. Djehuti's stance contradicts the findings in both archaeological and genetic research of the past two decades, simply because it doesn't align with his Afrocentric narrative.
quote:The sample results come from the MDLP K23b database which is relatively better at calculating samples from modern populations than g25. So what?! Unlike you I don't rely on Eurogenes as all Euronuts do for the good reason that you pointed out they lack sample from other areas of Africa.
Originally posted by Antalas:
hahaha lmao that's literally the gedmatch version of G25, there is no "Himba" in the Eurogenes database XD
quote:Nice cherry picks, but we all know that those Kenyan samples (that I presume Eurogenes likes to display) are among the most homogeneous in East Africa.
Here distances of Yoruba to different niger-congo communities from East Africa :
As you can observe, despite the significant geographical distances separating them, these populations are far more genetically similar to each other than Natufians and Iberomaurusians
quote:That you fail to understand how Ethiohelix's writings relate to what we are speaking of goes to show your ignorance if not lack of intelligence. The only one whose position has been invalidated is YOURS and its been made clear in this forum for a long time now. Even Swenet doesn't take you seriously because your are an ignoramus whose agenda blinds you to the truth. You can't even read your own graphs properly becaue of it! LOL
Once more, this has nothing to do with the topic or the point I am making. Your responses seem to be veering off-topic and quoting irrelevant information, making it appear as if you are contributing to the conversation. It's clear that your position is invalidated, and it's time to acknowledge that. No one here has claimed that SSAs are a genetic monolith, so using a straw man argument doesn't serve your case.
quote:LOL That North Africa was 'black' has yet to be challenged historically speaking since all the historical texts from Europeans themselves describe the indigenous peoples as exactly that 'melanchroes' 'maures/moors' etc. Even genetic evidence shows the natives to be highly melanated. As for the claims of Eurasian. I never denied Eurasian presence at an early date though I do question some of the claims as many genetic signatures were once labeled as "Eurasian" before-- Y-clade E-M215, ANA, Mota, etc. It's because of these past blunders that I am skeptical. I even question the mitochondrial samples above which appear to be corroded since they can't even tell if it's H or U. It's only recently that many geneticists are realizing that M1 prevalent in the Horn is likely African OR back-migrated from Africans in Arabia due to its different motif from other basal M clades in Eurasia. The same seems to be the case with N1 and who knows what other N derivatives like R0 or even something that may appear to be U at first.
It's evident that you find the notion of Eurasian settlement in Africa during that early period unsettling because it challenges the concept of a historically black North Africa. I don't have the inclination or time to craft an extensive argument defending the presence of such admixture. Additionally, the mention of Basal Eurasian seems irrelevant, as they predate the population in question by at least 40k years. Instead, I'll simplify my point with just one image:
quote:What I find implausible is your pathetic attempt at reviving the Hamitic Hypothesis since those same Eurasians includes Nubias and even some Nilo-Saharans as far south as Tanzania even though their parental lineages and HLA genes show otherwise. Can you explain this??
It's funny how our ancient African ancestors from the MSA managed to colonize diverse regions worldwide, yet Djehuti finds it implausible that Eurasians could have settled in Northeast Africa via the Sinai and Nile corridor. Djehuti's stance contradicts the findings in both archaeological and genetic research of the past two decades, simply because it doesn't align with his Afrocentric narrative.
quote:How does that support your stance ? Yourself admit those are great distances so no, natufians weren't genetically close to iberomaurusians
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Meanwhile, you have yet to explain why the Niger-Congo speaking Biaka of Cameroon who border Nigerians are as genetically distant to Nigerians as ancient Moroccans are to Natufians.
Or why the same distance can be found between ancient Mota of Ethiopia and modern Ethiopians
quote:https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/06/11/1800851115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1800851115.sapp.pdf
Although, ADMIXTURE analysis pointed to some relationship between IAM and Levantine aDNA samples, especially the Natufians, this is not supported by FST distances .
quote:https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/06/11/1800851115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1800851115.sapp.pdf
When we compare pair-wise FST distances, the most striking result is that IAM presents rather high FST values with all populations except for Taforalt (0.049). The following closest populations are KEB and Guanches (Figure S9.1) with FST values of 0.090 (similar to the distance between Yoruba and Mbuti) and 0.119 (similar to the distance between Somali and Mbuti), respectively. In fact, IAM is in general as distant to other Eurasians as it is the Yoruba population, following the same pattern observed previously for Taforalt. In a detailed population-by-population comparison (Figure S9.2), we can see that IAM is closer to modern North African populations , following the west to east trend described before, in such a way Saharawis and Moroccans are closer than Egyptians (Figure S9.3).
quote:As I mentioned earlier, Ethiohelix's writings are not related to the topic. No one suggested that SSAs constitute a genetic monolith. I can perfectly read my own graphs, Swenet simply proposed a lack of variables, which, although it could have enhanced the precision of the results, does not invalidate the comparison, which is why it was accepted for publication. It appears that you rely on others to challenge my assertions since you are evidently unable to do so yourself. Despite having observed this forum for years, your understanding of physical anthropology remains quite limited.
Originally posted by Djehuti: That you fail to understand how Ethiohelix's writings relate to what we are speaking of goes to show your ignorance if not lack of intelligence. The only one whose position has been invalidated is YOURS and its been made clear in this forum for a long time now. Even Swenet doesn't take you seriously because your are an ignoramus whose agenda blinds you to the truth. You can't even read your own graphs properly becaue of it! LOL
quote:The concept of a "black" North Africa is outdated and does not align with current genetic and anthropological evidence. It relies on modern interpretations of ancient terms. Furthermore, it appears you may not be well-acquainted with NAs, as they, on average, have darker skin tones compared to Europeans. Ancient samples clearly show that their genetic makeup resembles that of modern North Africans, with the presence of light skin alleles dating back 7500 years. Anthropological studies also reveal significant differences between ancient North Africans (even Paleolithic NAs were already very different) and most SSAs. Additionally, historical depictions provide ample evidence in this regard.
Originally posted by Djehuti: That North Africa was 'black' has yet to be challenged historically speaking since all the historical texts from Europeans themselves describe the indigenous peoples as exactly that 'melanchroes' 'maures/moors' etc. Even genetic evidence shows the natives to be highly melanated. As for the claims of Eurasian. I never denied Eurasian presence at an early date though I do question some of the claims as many genetic signatures were once labeled as "Eurasian" before-- Y-clade E-M215, ANA, Mota, etc. It's because of these past blunders that I am skeptical. I even question the mitochondrial samples above which appear to be corroded since they can't even tell if it's H or U. It's only recently that many geneticists are realizing that M1 prevalent in the Horn is likely African OR back-migrated from Africans in Arabia due to its different motif from other basal M clades in Eurasia. The same seems to be the case with N1 and who knows what other N derivatives like R0 or even something that may appear to be U at first.
quote:So, are you suggesting that simply citing genetic research showing varying degrees of eurasian ancestry in East Africans is akin to resurrecting the Hamitic hypothesis ?
Originally posted by Djehuti: What I find implausible is your pathetic attempt at reviving the Hamitic Hypothesis since those same Eurasians includes Nubias and even some Nilo-Saharans as far south as Tanzania even though their parental lineages and HLA genes show otherwise. Can you explain this??
quote:So tell us Djehuti what does this have to do with genetics ? Where did I imply superiority of "hamites" over "Negroes" ?
The Hamitic hypothesis states that everything of value ever found in Africa was brought there by the Hamites, allegedly a branch of the Caucasian race. This hypothesis was preceded by an earlier theory, in the 16th century, that the Hamites were black savages, 'natural slaves' - and Negroes. This view, which persisted throughout the 18th century, served as a rationale for slavery, using Biblical interpretations in support of its tenets. The image of the Negro deteriorated in direct proportion to the growth of the importance of slavery, and it became imperative for the white man to exclude the Negro from the brotherhood of races. Napoleon's expedition to Egypt in 1798 became the historical catalyst that provided the Western world with the impetus to turn the Hamite into a Caucasian. The Hamitic concept has as its function the portrayal of the Negro as an inherently inferior being and to rationalize his exploitation. In the final analysis it was possible because its changing aspects were supported by the prevailing intellectual viewpoints of the times.
quote:
The primary encounter with foreign and unknown nations is clearly and always made through sight. Even if one does not talk to, or trade with, or fight, or approach, other people, a visual impression is made. Accordingly, we find several proverbial expressions related to physical appearance. In Plautus’ Poenulus (‘the little Punic’) Antamonides, a soldier in love with one of two Carthaginian girls, exclaims:
Now that I’m angry I’d like my girlfriend to meet me: with my fists I’ll make sure that she’s black as a blackbird this instant, I’ll fill her with blackness to such an extent that she’s much blacker than the Egyptians (atrior … quam Aegyptini) who carry the bucket round the circus during the games.
(Plaut. Poen. 1288–91)Footnote5
Egyptians thus are presented as a standard for blackness, even if the image is based not on an actual visit to Egypt but on the appearance of Egyptians who were brought to Rome and performed or worked in the circus. Perhaps these implied circumstances emphasized even more the physical difference between locals (Roman city dwellers who attended the theatre) and foreigners (Egyptian slaves). But Egyptians were not the usual symbol of dark complexion. Based on what we have available in writing, other North Africans were more commonly used as proverbial illustrations of black or dark skin.
In the so-called Priapic erotic epigrams, a certain very repulsive girl is said to be ‘no whiter than a Moor’ (non candidior puella Mauro) (46.1). In another Priapic epigram the Moors represent elaborately curly hair when mocking a feminine male who ‘primp[s] his hair with curly irons so he’d seem a Moorish maiden’ (ferventi caput ustulare ferro, ut Maurae similis foret puellae) (45.2–3).Footnote6 The Latin MauriFootnote7 sometimes referred specifically to the inhabitants of the region defined in ancient geographies as Mauritania, or Maurousia in Greek, which is more or less parallel to parts of modern Morocco and Algeria.Footnote8 However, we often find the same terminology applied, especially in poetic works, to Africans in general.Footnote9 Accordingly, the proverbial association of Mauri with dark skin could be understood as pertaining to the inhabitants of north-western Africa or to the inhabitants of the continent as a whole. It seems that even if the crowds had no precise geographical idea of peoples and places, the popular notion of certain groups who have black skin must have been established and transmitted.
The Latin references to Egyptians and Mauri as people with a darker complexion combine to form the traditional and most well-known use of Aethiops as the symbol of black skin already in Greek proverbial applications. The very etymology of the Greek word Αἰθίοψ, denoting a ‘burnt face’ (αἴθω, ὄψ), as well as the Greek idiom ‘to wash an Aethiops white,’Footnote10 must have fixed this image in the minds of the crowds, even those who had never met any person from the relevant African regions. This is quite clear, for instance, in Juvenal’s contrast between ‘white’ and ‘Aethiops’ (derideat Aethiopem albus, Juv. 2.23)
quote:You have completely ignored my points again and are using straw man arguments. No problem I'll post them again until you'll adress them :
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Because you attempt to apply the same type of philosophy or rather mentality on to genetics. You already took a big L by attempting to restrict the color label of "black" on to a racial typology in Sub-Sahara.
S.O.Y. Keita: "Black is not limited to Africa".
Yet you attempt to limit black to only one region of Africa. LOL
Meanwhile, in regards to genetics you have yet to explain why the Niger-Congo speaking Biaka of Cameroon who border Nigerians are as genetically distant to Nigerians as ancient Moroccans are to Natufians.
Or why the same distance can be found between ancient Mota of Ethiopia and modern Ethiopians
Or the fact that despite it not being in the Eurogenes databank the Bantu-speaking Himba are more distant from West Africans.
Why is that?
Dr. Spencer Wells: "There is more genetic diversity in any single African village than in the whole world outside Africa."
Oh that's right.
Africans have the world's greatest genetic variation and Genetic Distance vs Genetic Diversity
So your attempt to divorce North Africa from the rest of Africa is laughably pathetic...
quote:https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/06/11/1800851115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1800851115.sapp.pdf
Although, ADMIXTURE analysis pointed to some relationship between IAM and Levantine aDNA samples, especially the Natufians, this is not supported by FST distances .
quote:https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/06/11/1800851115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1800851115.sapp.pdf
When we compare pair-wise FST distances, the most striking result is that IAM presents rather high FST values with all populations except for Taforalt (0.049). The following closest populations are KEB and Guanches (Figure S9.1) with FST values of 0.090 (similar to the distance between Yoruba and Mbuti) and 0.119 (similar to the distance between Somali and Mbuti), respectively. In fact, IAM is in general as distant to other Eurasians as it is the Yoruba population, following the same pattern observed previously for Taforalt. In a detailed population-by-population comparison (Figure S9.2), we can see that IAM is closer to modern North African populations , following the west to east trend described before, in such a way Saharawis and Moroccans are closer than Egyptians (Figure S9.3).
quote:Yes I'm sure Romans and Greeks understood "Black" or "Dark skin" as we do today in the West and of course couldn't make the difference between North Africans and Aethiopians. All Africans were pretty much the same (despite the genetic diversity) simply dark skin and the rest let's forget about it it's unimportant. Now as to how dark they were who cares ? We aren't into this "true negro" thing aren't we ? The Sahara never was a geographical barrier, its dessication is very recent and there were remnants of black saharan refugees in the Maghreb and Egypt. Eurasians never impacted much North Africa except after the arab conquest and the Barbary slave trade which brought enormous amount of arab tribes and europeans slaves who intermingled with the black locals. The Slave trade and its millions of slaves is simply a myth since most of those slaves died in the Sahara and the rest were castrated.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Meanwhile the ancient Euros that were the Greeks and Romans did not subscribe to such a division of Africa which is what the topic of this thread is about:
Ethnic Types and Stereotypes in Ancient Latin Idioms
[QUOTE]
The primary encounter with foreign and unknown nations is clearly and always made through sight. Even if one does not talk to, or trade with, or fight, or approach, other people, a visual impression is made. Accordingly, we find several proverbial expressions related to physical appearance. In Plautus’ Poenulus (‘the little Punic’) Antamonides, a soldier in love with one of two Carthaginian girls, exclaims:
Now that I’m angry I’d like my girlfriend to meet me: with my fists I’ll make sure that she’s black as a blackbird this instant, I’ll fill her with blackness to such an extent that she’s much blacker than the Egyptians (atrior … quam Aegyptini) who carry the bucket round the circus during the games.
(Plaut. Poen. 1288–91)Footnote5
Egyptians thus are presented as a standard for blackness, even if the image is based not on an actual visit to Egypt but on the appearance of Egyptians who were brought to Rome and performed or worked in the circus. Perhaps these implied circumstances emphasized even more the physical difference between locals (Roman city dwellers who attended the theatre) and foreigners (Egyptian slaves). But Egyptians were not the usual symbol of dark complexion. Based on what we have available in writing, other North Africans were more commonly used as proverbial illustrations of black or dark skin.
In the so-called Priapic erotic epigrams, a certain very repulsive girl is said to be ‘no whiter than a Moor’ (non candidior puella Mauro) (46.1). In another Priapic epigram the Moors represent elaborately curly hair when mocking a feminine male who ‘primp[s] his hair with curly irons so he’d seem a Moorish maiden’ (ferventi caput ustulare ferro, ut Maurae similis foret puellae) (45.2–3).Footnote6 The Latin MauriFootnote7 sometimes referred specifically to the inhabitants of the region defined in ancient geographies as Mauritania, or Maurousia in Greek, which is more or less parallel to parts of modern Morocco and Algeria.Footnote8 However, we often find the same terminology applied, especially in poetic works, to Africans in general.Footnote9 Accordingly, the proverbial association of Mauri with dark skin could be understood as pertaining to the inhabitants of north-western Africa or to the inhabitants of the continent as a whole. It seems that even if the crowds had no precise geographical idea of peoples and places, the popular notion of certain groups who have black skin must have been established and transmitted.
The Latin references to Egyptians and Mauri as people with a darker complexion combine to form the traditional and most well-known use of Aethiops as the symbol of black skin already in Greek proverbial applications. The very etymology of the Greek word Αἰθίοψ, denoting a ‘burnt face’ (αἴθω, ὄψ), as well as the Greek idiom ‘to wash an Aethiops white,’Footnote10 must have fixed this image in the minds of the crowds, even those who had never met any person from the relevant African regions. This is quite clear, for instance, in Juvenal’s contrast between ‘white’ and ‘Aethiops’ (derideat Aethiopem albus, Juv. 2.23)
quote:Frank M. Snowden Jr., Bernal's "Blacks" and the afrocentrists,in: Black athena revisited, The university of North Carolina Press, 1996, p. 113
That Ethiopians were the blackest peoples known to Greeks and Romans is illustrated by a familiar "color-scheme", succinctly stated in the first century C.E. by Manilius (4.722-30), who classified dark- and black-skinned peoples as follows: Ethiopians, the blackest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and Moors, the lightest. Several classical authors specifically emphasized that Ethiopians were darker than Egyptians. Inhabitants of the area near the Ethiopian-nubian boundary were said by Flavius Philostratus (Life of Apollonius 6.2) to be not fully black, not as black as ethiopians, but blacker than egyptians.
quote:Frank M. Snowden Jr., Bernal's "Blacks" and the afrocentrists,in: Black athena revisited, The university of North Carolina Press, 1996, p. 114
Ethiopians differed from other dark-skinned peoples (e.g., Egyptians, Moors, and Indians) not only in that they were the blackest of all populations known to Greeks and Romans but also in that their hair was the woolliest or most tightly curled. Herodotus clearly located Ethiopians in the Nile Valley to the south of Egypt (e.g. 2.28-30) and in northwestern Africa to the south of the Libyans (4.197) and described some of the former as the most wolly-haired of all mankind (7.70)
quote:Frank M. Snowden Jr., Bernal's "Blacks" and the afrocentrists,in: Black athena revisited, The university of North Carolina Press, 1996, p. 114
"Ethiopian", the word of crucial import as to the full significance of the ethnic identification of peoples darker than greeks and romans, was applied, with a few poetical exceptions, neither to egyptians nor to inhabitants of northwestern Africa, such as Carthaginians, Numidians, or Moors. In other words, all Ethiopians were black or dark, but with hair, noses, and lips differing from these features in other peoples described as black or dark. And Afri (africans) generally referred to the lighter-skinned populations of countries west of Egypt along the northern coast of Africa - peoples whose physical characteristics Greeks and Romans distinguished from those of the dark-skinned inhabitants of the interior of northwestern Africa.
quote:Frank M. Snowden Jr., Blacks in Antiquity, Harvard University Press, p. 4
Philostratus observed that as one proceeded south of Egypt up the Nile one found that the inhabitants were darker. Those dwelling near the boundaries between Egypt and Ethiopia were not completely black but were half-breeds as to color, in part not so black as Ethiopians but in part blacker than Egyptians. Interesting in this connection is the Barberini mosaic at Palestina depicting Egyptian landscape and the Nile in flood. The figures in the foreground are whites, while hunters on a mountain at the top of the mosaic representing the southernmost figures up the Nile, are blacks.
Yes we know that populations get darker in complexion as one travels up the Nile or as Snowden put it, populations get "blacker" but the Egyptians were still considered "black" to begin with.quote:Egyptians were not referred to as "black" in the modern sense. As Snowden points out, anyone with a darker complexion than Southern Europeans might have been described as "black" or "dark-skinned". Furthermore, since when are "North Saharan" populations black ? Such an attempt to group together populations that have little in common may indicate a lack of understanding or simply a mental pathology. Undoubtedly, categorizing all these ethnic groups under a single label, regardless of the substantial differences that may exist among them, is highly advantageous for an Afrocentrist attempting to assert ownership over the history of North Africans.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^
As for the Natufians, I never said they were genetically close to ancient Maghrebis. You and then I cited the fst results. My point is that the distance between them is the same as that between Nigerians and Biaka of Cameroon or that between the Mota and present day Ethiopians.
My point is that you try to use genetic distance as a way to pigeonhole African diversity but it isn't working.
One can make similar arguments for Australasian aboriginals.
The Onge are closest to Filipino 'Negritos' yet are closer to Mongols than Australian Aboriginals and closer to Saudi Arabs than Papuans!
Yet Onge, Filipine Negritos, Papuans and Aussi Aboriginals are all Australasians, and they are all BLACK the same way Africans both Sub-Saharan and North Saharan are.
quote:Yes, in America rightly or wrongly
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ And what is 'black' in a "modern sense" as opposed to in an "ancient sense" when the Greeks and Romans described them as such?? "Negroid"? "Sub-Saharan"? LOL
Face it, you are either intellectually dishonest or bankrupt. It's one or the other.
quote:the one used by most Americans
Originally posted by Djehuti:
But which definition in America?
quote:I don't agree with some of the claims attributed to Bernal (e.g. that pharaonic Egyptians or Phoenicians colonized Greece during the Bronze Age and contributed half of ancient Greek vocabulary), but I do believe the whole "Black Athena" drama has done a lot of damage to how the public perceives North African antiquity. It probably has a lot to do with why even those history aficionados who claim to be progressive will write off any narrative that appears vaguely "Afrocentric" as fringe. Even if not everything Bernal said turned out to be correct, the knee-jerk hostility he received from the classicist community did help pollute the atmosphere surrounding the topics he and people whose views overlapped or even just resembled his touched on.
Originally posted by Swenet:
Marincola is the same type of scholar Bernal was exposing throughout his work. If you look at Bernal's wiki page you can see how a tidal wave of 'experts' retaliated and assassinated his character, deliberately magnifying his errors and obscuring the bottom line factual essence of his work.
Whatever may be said about errors in Herodotus and Bernal (e.g. the degree of borrowing), they were not wrong about the essential bottom line of their anthro comments. When I say that, I'm specifically talking about their comments of an Egyptian or perhaps better called Afroasiatic element in the Aegean, and the areas south of the Caucasus (from which the dark skinned element among the Colchians could easily be an offshoot).
Basic Y-chromosomal haplogroups, which have been described in
this study, are common for the Caucasus and Europe during the Iron
Age period - E1a2a, G2a1a, R1b, and R1a; moreover, R1a and R1b
haplogroups have been usually associated with the Indo-European mi-
grations (Haak et al., 2015; de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018).
Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the prehistoric Koban culture of the North Caucasus
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/1-s2.0-S2352409X20301486-main.pdf
Another example of the academic community's typical pattern of defiance and obfuscation around Afroasiatic outposts/colonies in West Eurasia is the academic rendering of Bronze Age Semites as non-African Middle Easterners, as can be seen in the study of the Afroasiatic language family, in which the word 'Semitic' in 'Hamito-Semitic' was supposed to be the 'white' (and ancestral) component of this language family, while the Hamitic branch was a heavily modified remnant of a white population (e.g. Chadic speakers especially were seen as dubious members of this language family, due to their physical features). Though officially denounced today, these academic aggressions towards Africans still persist as shown by their questioning of ancient observers simply because they witnessed and wrote about Semitic/Afroasiatic enclaves (as if these ancients stand alone, as far as evidence goes
You can see why someone who has even a basic background in anthropology can lose respect for these so-called 'experts' ability to do any serious anthropology.
quote:I've never actually gotten around to reading Bernal's writing yet, but I don't know how familiar he was with Aegean archaeology, much less some of the Neolithic Aegean cultures associated with skeletal remains that show African affinities. All I know is that he built a large proportion of his case from Greek mythological traditions and what he perceived to be Egyptian and Semitic cognates in the ancient Greek language.
Originally posted by Swenet:
If I were Bernal I would have focused on the Caphtorim/Keftiu/Cilicians, who were already showing signs of Aegean culture before classical Greece, and who arrived on the shores of Palestine as Philistines, bringing Aegean culture with them as well as traditions of originating in Egypt (hence biblical tradition of them being a tribe of Egyptians). I would have just stuck with figuring out the timeline of the arrival of these pre-Hellenic Aegeans (ie their antiquity compared to Greeks) and went from there.