posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique heavyweight Egyptologists these
days acknowledge the Ancient Egyptians as "black" using
European-American race classifications, as shown below.
Some piously intone about "moving beyond race" but
curiously, as even Keita notes in one acdemic journal,
keep introducing "race" in new guises, such as continued
use of the "true negro" stereotype, as if all "blek"
Africans is supposed to be huddled somewhere behind a
sort of "apartheid" wall called the Sahara.

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Posts: 43322 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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The primary encounter with foreign and unknown nations is clearly and always made through sight. Even if one does not talk to, or trade with, or fight, or approach, other people, a visual impression is made. Accordingly, we find several proverbial expressions related to physical appearance. In Plautus’ Poenulus (‘the little Punic’) Antamonides, a soldier in love with one of two Carthaginian girls, exclaims:

Now that I’m angry I’d like my girlfriend to meet me: with my fists I’ll make sure that she’s black as a blackbird this instant, I’ll fill her with blackness to such an extent that she’s much blacker than the Egyptians (atrior … quam Aegyptini) who carry the bucket round the circus during the games.

(Plaut. Poen. 1288–91)
Egyptians thus are presented as a standard for blackness, even if the image is based not on an actual visit to Egypt but on the appearance of Egyptians who were brought to Rome and performed or worked in the circus. Perhaps these implied circumstances emphasized even more the physical difference between locals (Roman city dwellers who attended the theatre) and foreigners (Egyptian slaves). But Egyptians were not the usual symbol of dark complexion. Based on what we have available in writing, other North Africans were more commonly used as proverbial illustrations of black or dark skin.

In the so-called Priapic erotic epigrams, a certain very repulsive girl is said to be ‘no whiter than a Moor’ (non candidior puella Mauro) (46.1). In another Priapic epigram the Moors represent elaborately curly hair when mocking a feminine male who ‘primp[s] his hair with curly irons so he’d seem a Moorish maiden’ (ferventi caput ustulare ferro, ut Maurae similis foret puellae) (45.2–3). The Latin Mauri sometimes referred specifically to the inhabitants of the region defined in ancient geographies as Mauritania, or Maurousia in Greek, which is more or less parallel to parts of modern Morocco and Algeria. However, we often find the same terminology applied, especially in poetic works, to Africans in general. Accordingly, the proverbial association of Mauri with dark skin could be understood as pertaining to the inhabitants of north-western Africa or to the inhabitants of the continent as a whole. It seems that even if the crowds had no precise geographical idea of peoples and places, the popular notion of certain groups who have black skin must have been established and transmitted.

The Latin references to Egyptians and Mauri as people with a darker complexion combine to form the traditional and most well-known use of Aethiops as the symbol of black skin already in Greek proverbial applications. The very etymology of the Greek word Αἰθίοψ, denoting a ‘burnt face’ (αἴθω, ὄψ), as well as the Greek idiom ‘to wash an Aethiops white,’ must have fixed this image in the minds of the crowds, even those who had never met any person from the relevant African regions. This is quite clear, for instance, in Juvenal’s contrast between ‘white’ and ‘Aethiops’ (derideat Aethiopem albus, Juv. 2.23)

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Posts: 26762 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, there was actually NEVER a debate on the Egyptians' skin color until recently. It has been taken for granted that Egyptians and other North Africans especially in ancient times were described as 'black' or very dark. It was only in the early part of the Modern era with the rise of scientific racialism and its product scientific racism that Egyptians and other North Africans were classified as "Caucasians" or "Caucasoid" but still 'black' or extremely dark in color i.e. 'Hamitic Hypothesis'.

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Posts: 2961 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Ethnic Types and Stereotypes in Ancient Latin Idioms

quote:

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The primary encounter with foreign and unknown nations is clearly and always made through sight. Even if one does not talk to, or trade with, or fight, or approach, other people, a visual impression is made. Accordingly, we find several proverbial expressions related to physical appearance. In Plautus’ Poenulus (‘the little Punic’) Antamonides, a soldier in love with one of two Carthaginian girls, exclaims:

Now that I’m angry I’d like my girlfriend to meet me: with my fists I’ll make sure that she’s black as a blackbird this instant, I’ll fill her with blackness to such an extent that she’s much blacker than the Egyptians (atrior … quam Aegyptini) who carry the bucket round the circus during the games.

(Plaut. Poen. 1288–91)
Egyptians thus are presented as a standard for blackness, even if the image is based not on an actual visit to Egypt but on the appearance of Egyptians who were brought to Rome and performed or worked in the circus. Perhaps these implied circumstances emphasized even more the physical difference between locals (Roman city dwellers who attended the theatre) and foreigners (Egyptian slaves). But Egyptians were not the usual symbol of dark complexion. Based on what we have available in writing, other North Africans were more commonly used as proverbial illustrations of black or dark skin.

In the so-called Priapic erotic epigrams, a certain very repulsive girl is said to be ‘no whiter than a Moor’ (non candidior puella Mauro) (46.1). In another Priapic epigram the Moors represent elaborately curly hair when mocking a feminine male who ‘primp[s] his hair with curly irons so he’d seem a Moorish maiden’ (ferventi caput ustulare ferro, ut Maurae similis foret puellae) (45.2–3). The Latin Mauri sometimes referred specifically to the inhabitants of the region defined in ancient geographies as Mauritania, or Maurousia in Greek, which is more or less parallel to parts of modern Morocco and Algeria. However, we often find the same terminology applied, especially in poetic works, to Africans in general. Accordingly, the proverbial association of Mauri with dark skin could be understood as pertaining to the inhabitants of north-western Africa or to the inhabitants of the continent as a whole. It seems that even if the crowds had no precise geographical idea of peoples and places, the popular notion of certain groups who have black skin must have been established and transmitted.

The Latin references to Egyptians and Mauri as people with a darker complexion combine to form the traditional and most well-known use of Aethiops as the symbol of black skin already in Greek proverbial applications. The very etymology of the Greek word Αἰθίοψ, denoting a ‘burnt face’ (αἴθω, ὄψ), as well as the Greek idiom ‘to wash an Aethiops white,’ must have fixed this image in the minds of the crowds, even those who had never met any person from the relevant African regions. This is quite clear, for instance, in Juvenal’s contrast between ‘white’ and ‘Aethiops’ (derideat Aethiopem albus, Juv. 2.23)

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This is the reason why there is a huge disconnect between Egyptology and Greco-Roman so called 'Classical' studies as Sally-Ann Ashton and Kara Cooney have stated. It makes me think this disconnect was done on purpose.

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Posts: 5937 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, there was actually NEVER a debate on the Egyptians' skin color until recently. It has been taken for granted that Egyptians and other North Africans especially in ancient times were described as 'black' or very dark. It was only in the early part of the Modern era with the rise of scientific racialism and its product scientific racism that Egyptians and other North Africans were classified as "Caucasians" or "Caucasoid" but still 'black' or extremely dark in color i.e. 'Hamitic Hypothesis'.

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In todays world one must also separate the discussions and statements among professionals in fields like archaeology, Egyptology, history and anthropology, which often are presented in peer reviewed journals and books, from the discussions held on social media among non professionals with varying backgrounds and levels of knowledge. The discussions on social media are often more confrontational with the expression of strong opinions.

Some professionals try to avoid terms like "Black" and "White" or "race" altogether.

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Indeed. And some scholars from Egyptology (Tyson-Smith) and Classical Learning
(Mary Lefkowitz) acknowledge that the use of the term "black" to
describe the Ancient Egyptians is reasonable, given how today's
societies label people. And the use of such labels is still a well
recognized phenomenon in archaeology, anthropology etc as shown
countless times on ES. Replacing various labels with clines and
populations still would not change the fact of dark-skinned Egyptians,
or of their linkages to other African peoples, including the closest
biological link, that of Nubians.



--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

Posts: 5937 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

The DNA They Don't Want You to See: The Untold Story of Egyptians' DNA

quote:

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DNA, those three letters, have revolutionized Egyptology, providing precise answers to longstanding questions. But how reliable is this information? Are scientists presenting the whole truth, or is there more to the story? In this video, we uncover the hidden aspects of DNA research that have eluded public view.

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Posts: 2642 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
That is the whole point of the hamitic theory which has nothing to do with skull shape and everything to do with skin color, hence why hamites are called "brown whites".

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quote:

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During the Middle Ages, Jews and Christians considered Ham to be the ancestor of all Africans. Noah's curse on Canaan as described in Genesis began to be interpreted by some theologians as having caused visible racial characteristics in all of Ham's offspring, notably black skin.

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Posts: 43322 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, there was actually NEVER a debate on the Egyptians' skin color until recently. It has been taken for granted that Egyptians and other North Africans especially in ancient times were described as 'black' or very dark. It was only in the early part of the Modern era with the rise of scientific racialism and its product scientific racism that Egyptians and other North Africans were classified as "Caucasians" or "Caucasoid" but still 'black' or extremely dark in color i.e. 'Hamitic Hypothesis'.

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Posts: 7379 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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In the beginning of such a discussion many reflections of a general character respecting the races about to be considered suggest themselves to the inquirer. One of the first of these is the laying of geographical boundaries around that division of mankind defined as Black. This great task in our present state of knowledge is not difficult to perform. Time was in the near past, however, when the boundaries of the Black races were unknown. Those boundaries, indeed, were supposed to be vastly more extensive than subsequent inquiry has shown to be the fact. The whole tendency of ethnological investigation for the last half century has been to narrow the geographical areas occupied by the Black races.


WE now purpose to take up and consider in its turn the last of the three primary divisions of the human family. This is the Black race, to which many references have already been made in preceding portions of this work. Our prime classification of the various branches of the human family has, from the first, proceeded on the general line of color, and this method we now follow to its ultimate results by including in our last group of peoples all those who by the test of complexion may be classified together as Blacks.

In the beginning of such a discussion many reflections of a general character respecting the races about to be considered suggest themselves to the inquirer. One of the first of these is the laying of geographical boundaries around that division of mankind defined as Black. This task in our present advanced state of knowledge is not difficult to perform. Time was in the near past, however, when the boundaries of the Black races were unknown. Those boundaries, indeed, were supposed to be vastly more extensive than subsequent inquiry has shown to be the fact. The whole tendency of ethnological investigation for the last half century has been to narrow the geographical areas occupied by the Black races.

Not so long ago it was supposed, in a general way, that all of Africa, ancient and modern, was essentially Nigritian in its populations. This has now been shown to be [wholly incorrect. All of North Africa above the twentieth parallel has been entirely excluded from he classification. This large part of the continent has belonged in the past - and so belongs in the present - to the Hamitic races, and, perhaps, in a smaller measure to the Semites. The limits of the Black race have thus been narrowed on the north to the inner tropics. The remainder of the continent, except on the east, belongs to the Blacks - though the southern part, below the Tropic of Capricorn, has had an ambiguous ethnography, the true character of which is not yet definitely ascertained. We may thus say in general terms that the Western, or African, division of the Black races is confined to the intertropical spaces of the Dark Continent.

As to the Eastern division of the Black races, the same narrowing tendency in its boundaries may be observed. It was formerly supposed that the south of India for as far as the twentieth parallel north was dominated by Black peoples, whereas we now know that only the extreme part of that great peninsula was touched by the true Blacks in their distribution eastward. In like manner the Indonesian islands were formerly assigned to the Blacks, whereas subsequent inquiry has shown that the Malays have their ethnic relationships with the Brown races of Southeastern Asia. Only Australia and the Papuan parts of New Guinea, with certain associated points of land belonging to Melanesia, remain as the true seats of the Black distribution eastward.

There are thus seen to be in a general way only two principal branches of the Black race, namely, the Western, or Nigritian, branch distributed through equatorial and Southern Africa ; and the Eastern, or Australian, branch, distributed in Australia, Papua, and the smaller islands of Melanesia. The limits of the race, as a whole, are thus narrowed, both latitudinally and longi- tudinally, especially the former. The uttermost eastern dispersion of the Black division of mankind reaches as far as the Fiji islands, under the iSoth meridian of Greenwich, while the Western departure goes out as far as Cape Verde, about longitude 17 degrees W. The northern barrier of the race reaches geographically the Sahara, in Africa, about the 20th parallel, and the southernmost point of the distribution is in Tasmania, in 42 degrees South.

The next general observation relative to the emplacement of the Black race is the comparative unimportance of the countries occupied thereby. Of these, the greatest potency is doubtlessly in Equatorial Africa. That part of the world, however, has thus far remained unclaimed by civilization, although Northern and Northeastern Africa have been the seats of some of the oldest, most famous, and most important, as well as the most highly civilized, nations of the ancient world.

After Africa, Australia is by far the most important of the countries having an original population of Blacks. While it would not be proper to depreciate Australia as a seat of civilization, it must nevertheless be admitted that a large part of that island-continent is un- reclaimable, and that the whole of it is so greatly divided by broad oceans from the continental parts of the world as to place the country at a great disadvantage in the competition for preeminence.

As to New Guinea, the island is neither large enough nor well enough emplaced to give it a great importance in the general survey of the earth's habitable parts. It will thus be .seen that, on the whole, the geographical areas held originally, and in most part to the present time, by the Black races are the least consequential of the countries of the earth.

Our next general observation relates to the race itself, and its comparative rank in the general category of mankind. The Black division of human kind holds by far the lowest level of any of our species. Its emergence from the total obscurity of unrecorded paganism and merely animal stages of progress has been so slight as scarcely to mark a stage in the forward march. Beyond this the other races have gone forth on vast excursions to enlightenment and power. They have passed te borders of the physical and material, and have entered the intellectual life. They have organized powerful communities, nations, states, kingdoms, and dominions, and have made the thing which, for lack of better name, we call history.

This the Blacks have never done. It is a melancholy fact that they have no history. True, this may be said in almost equal degree of many of those other peoples whom we designate as aborigines. Aye, more; it is doubtlessly true, or was true, at some former period of all the aborigines of the earth, and therefore true of the human race itself.

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Posts: 8932 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
The concept of "hamitic race" used by European anthropologists has always meant white, just like the "brown race" also means white and so does "caucasoid". All of simply references to the same thing, the idea of ancient white skinned North Africans.

The passage below epitomizes the attitude of 19th century anthropology towards Africans and the reason why "caucasoid" or "hamite" has absolutely nothing to do with black people. If they say brown they really mean off white or "tanned". Again in this racialist mindset there is no confusion about the racial pyramid based on skin color. And that is why they have always had to separate black skin from the ancient Nile.

quote:

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Ridpath's Universal history : an account of the origin, primitive condition and ethnic development of the great races of mankind, and of the principal events in the evolution and progress of the civilized life among men and nations, from recent and authentic sources with a preliminary inquiry on the time, place and manner of the beginning

by Ridpath, John Clark, 1840-1900
https://archive.org/details/ridpathsuniversa08ridp/page/607/mode/1up

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You have a quote from John Clark Ridpath,
not an anthropologist
I've never heard of him but he lived 1840 – 1900 was an American educator, historian, and editor. professor at Indiana Asbury from 1869-85, taught English literature, normal instruction, belles lettres, history and political philosophy. Among his most notable works is a series of volumes on a history of the world, titled Cyclopedia of Universal History.
Ridpath was heavily influenced by Social Darwinism, imperialism, and nationalism. Specifically, he used Social Darwinist concepts of race and geography to explain the so-called “natural” or “national” character of a wide variety of civilizations. " Ridpath avoids the extreme Eurocentrism of many contemporaries but nevertheless operates with explicit notions of racial hierarchy. He often refers to Africa as the “Dark Continent” and to Africans as “savages.” By acknowledging the historical context of Ridpath’s intellectual environment, one can examine the ways in which imperialism and Social Darwinism shaped many Europeans’ and Americans’ understanding of history, progress, and the world around them."


He does mention the "Hamitic Races" in the book but not in your quote,
here is what he says:

quote:

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(end of 607, then 608)

The Blacks.

BOOK XXIX-AFRICAN NIGRITIANS.

CHAPTER CLXXXIII.-GENERALVIEWOFTHE BLACKS.

Not so long ago it was supposed, in a general way, that all of Africa, ancient and modern, was essentially Nigritian.

This has now been shown to be wholly incorrect. All of North Africa above the twentieth parallel has been entirely excluded from
the classification. This large part of the continent has belonged in the past — and so belongs in the present — to the Hamitic races, and, perhaps, in a smaller measure to the Semites. The limits of the Black race have thus been narrowed on the north to the inner tropics. The remainder of the continent, except on the east, belongs to the Blacks — though the southern part, below the Tropic of Capricorn, has had an ambiguous ethnography, the true character of which is not yet definitely ascertained. We may thus say in general terms that the Western, or African, division of the Black races is confined to the intertropical spaces of the Dark Continent.

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Much more well known:

quote:

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https://archive.org/details/sergi-giuseppe.-the-mediterranean-race-a-study-of-the-origin-of-the-european-peoples-1901/page/40/mode/2up?q=Hamitic


The Mediterranean Race A Study Of The Origin Of The European Peoples [1901]
by Giuseppe Sergi

40

shall show in the sequel when discussing the primitive civilisations of the Mediterranean stock. For the present, keeping within the domain of physical anthropology, we shall find confirmation and demonstration in an almost-complete study of certain African populations occupying an extended area and possessing marked homogencity in skeletal characters, to a less extent also in external characters, as well as in the languages formerly and still spoken. [ refer to the populations which pass under the old name of Hamitic, chiefly on account of the linguistic characters which have contributed to classify and group them in a single stock.

The Hamites— As I have said, many of the peoples called Hamitic still preserve their ancient language in a more or less altered form; among these may be included the inhabitants of the Sahara, the Berbers of every type and every region, while many others have wholly or partially lost their language, like the Egyptians, the Wahuma, the Masai. But they still show the physical character of their stock in spite of the incongruous and hybrid forms which have resulted. These physical characters—I mean the fundamental skeletal, and especially cranial and

41
facial characters—are common to the populations of the Mediterranean ; so that it may be said that the area of the so-called Hamitic stock extends from 10° Horn latitude towards the west, and from 8° south latitude towards the east, throughout the Mediterranean. We shall see, however, that it is not confined to this basis, but has extended into Europe at the north.

I divide the Hamites of Africa into two great branches, an eastern branch in the north-east of the continent, and a northern one in the north-west.
[QUOTE]
I. Eastern Branch :—

1. Ancient and modern Egyptians (Copts, Fellaheen), excluding the Arabs,

2. Nubians, Bejas.

3. Abyssinians.

4.Gallas, Danakil, Somalis.

5. Masai.

6. Wahuma or Watusi.

II. Northern Branch:—
1. Berbers of Mediterranean, Atlantic, and Sahara.

2, Tebus or Tubus. 3. Fulahs or Fulbés.

4. Guanches of the Canaries.

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Of these populations the Egyptians are still Mediterranean, and the Berbers Mediterranean and in part Atlantic; the name “ Berber,” which 1s recent, corresponds, in great part at least, to the ancient ° Libyan,” and is the name which I shall here adopt.


43
In North Africa and Sahara also very numerous flint arrow-heads and fragments of worked flint have been found, a certain proof of the existence of a large population.! The idea has thus arisen that Sahara rather than Eastern Africa was the original home of the populations which have occupied the Mediterranean basin and Hamitic Africa, or Africa north of the Sudan.?

It appears to me now, however, that to establish absolutely the place of origin of a human stock is neither an easy nor safe task; we can only indicate approximately, in the present case, the most probable region of Africa. If it seems to me most reasonable to look to the region of the great lakes, it is because that region is most favourable to human existence, and if similar conditions were also to be found in the Sahara at the Quaternary epoch, I will not deny to that district also the possibility of being the cradle of the human species which has had so large a part in the destinies of the world.

100
If we turn to consider the Egyptian language, I believe that everything favours an African origin. It may be, as Maspero, Sayce, and others affirm, that Eeyptian is intimately related with the Semitic tongues, and that Hamitic and Semitic are two branches of the same trunk; but they each have their own definite forms, with many characters that are common and many that are divergent. While also in Arabia, where the source of the Egyptian stock is sought, there is not the slightest indication of any Hamitic language-or dialect, in Africa not only is ancient Egyptian Hamitic but so are a whole series of languages spoken’ by numerous populations to the south of Europe and the west, through the Sahara to the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, as I have shown when dealing with the Hamitic stack in Africa?

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Posts: 43322 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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This video is a response to Metatrons video(which I'll call part 1) about a response he made to a YouTuber named Kawle Mika.

In this video debunk several of the claims made by Metatron that the Egyptians were multi-racial or multi-ethnic and that they were an olive colored people....

I apologize for any errors made and this video and excuse my voice and microphone it distorts how I actually sound when vocal.

There will be a follow up part two to this video where I debunk in much a more thorough manner more of Metatron's claims about ancient Egyptian ethnic and racial identity.

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Posts: 2961 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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S.O.Y. Keita, a biological anthropologist, conducted a study on First Dynasty crania from the royal tombs in Abydos and noted the predominant pattern was "Southern" or a "tropical African variant" (although others were also observed) that had affinities with Kerma Kushites. The general results demonstrate greater affinity with Upper Nile Valley groups, but also suggest clear change from earlier craniometric trends. The gene flow and movement of northern officials to the important southern city may explain the findings.

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Some scholars have proposed a southern origin for the Third Dynasty. Egyptologist, Flinders Petrie, believed the dynasty originated from Sudan based on the iconographic evidence whereas S.O.Y. Keita, a biological anthropologist, differed in his view and argued an origin in southern Egypt was “equally likely”. He cited a previous X-ray and anthropological study which suggested that the Third Dynasty nobles had “Nubian affinities”. The author also interpreted the portrait of Djoser as having little resemblance to “portraits of late dynastic Greek/Roman conquerors” and cited an iconographic review conducted by anthropologist, John Drake, as supporting evidence. In a separate article, Keita noted that the archaeological remains of the southern elites and their descendants which he discussed in reference to the Second Dynastic rulers and Djoser were eventually buried in the north and not at Abydos, Egypt.

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Deitrich Wildung has examined the representation of Nubian features in Egyptian iconography since the predynastic era and has argued that Khufu had these specific, Nubian features and this was represented in his statues.

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Posts: 2642 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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Neolithic

Lower Egypt

Faiyum A culture

Continued expansion of the desert forced the early ancestors of the Egyptians to settle around the Nile more permanently and adopt a more sedentary lifestyle during the Neolithic.
The period from 9000 to 6000 BC has left very little in the way of archaeological evidence. Around 6000 BC, Neolithic settlements appear all over Egypt. Some studies based on morphological, genetic,and archaeological data have attributed these settlements to migrants from the Fertile Crescent in the Near East returning during the Egyptian and North African Neolithic, bringing agriculture to the region.
Morphological and post-cranial data has linked the earliest farming populations at Fayum, Merimde, and El-Badari, to Near Eastern populations. The archaeological data also suggests that Near Eastern domesticates were incorporated into a pre-existing foraging strategy and only slowly developed into a full-blown lifestyle. Finally, the names for the Near Eastern domesticates imported into Egypt were not Sumerian or Proto-Semitic loan words.
However, some scholars have disputed this view and cited linguistic, biological anthropological, archaeologicaland genetic data which does not support the hypothesis of a mass migration from the Levantine during the prehistoric period. According to historian William Stiebling and archaeologist Susan N. Helft, this view posits that the ancient Egyptians are the same original population group as Nubians and other Saharan populations, with some genetic input from Arabian, Levantine, North African, and Indo-European groups who have known to have settled in Egypt during its long history. On the other hand, Stiebling and Helft acknowledge that the genetic studies of North African populations generally suggest a big influx of Near Eastern populations during the Neolithic Period or earlier. They also added that there have only been a few studies on ancient Egyptian DNA to clarify these issues.

Upper Egypt

Tasian culture

Archaeological evidence has suggested that the Tasian and Badarian Nile Valley sites were a peripheral network of earlier African cultures that featured the movement of Badarian, Saharan, Nubian and Nilotic populations. Bruce Williams, Egyptologist, has argued that the Tasian culture was significantly related to the Sudanese-Saharan traditions from the Neolithic era which extended from regions north of Khartoum to locations near Dongola in Sudan.

Badarian culture

Several biological anthropological studies have shown strong biological affinities between the Badarians and other Northeast African populations.

In 2005, Keita examined Badarian crania from predynastic upper Egypt in comparison to various European and tropical African crania. He found that the predynastic Badarian series clustered much closer with the tropical African series. Although, no Asian or other North African samples were included in the study as the comparative series were selected based on "Brace et al.’s (1993) comments on the affinities of an upper Egyptian/Nubian epipalaeolithic series". Keita further noted that additional analysis and material from Sudan, late dynastic northern Egypt (Gizeh), Somalia, Asia and the Pacific Islands "show the Badarian series to be most similar to a series from the northeast quandrant of Africa and then to other Africans".
Dental trait analysis of Badarian fossils conducted in a thesis study found that they were closely related to other Afroasiatic-speaking populations inhabiting Northeast Africa and the Maghreb. Among the ancient populations, the Badarians were nearest to other ancient Egyptians (Naqada, Hierakonpolis, Abydos and Kharga in Upper Egypt; Hawara in Lower Egypt), and C-Group and Pharaonic era skeletons excavated in Lower Nubia, followed by the A-Group culture bearers of Lower Nubia, the Kerma and Kush populations in Upper Nubia, the Meroitic, X-Group and Christian period inhabitants of Lower Nubia, and the Kellis population in the Dakhla Oasis.: 219–20  Among the recent groups, the Badari markers were morphologically closest to the Shawia and Kabyle Berber populations of Algeria as well as Bedouin groups in Morocco, Libya and Tunisia, followed by other Afroasiatic-speaking populations in the Horn of Africa.: 222–4  The Late Roman era Badarian skeletons from Kellis were also phenotypically distinct from those belonging to other populations in Sub-Saharan Africa.: 231–2 

Naqada culture

The Naqada culture is an archaeological culture of Chalcolithic Predynastic Egypt (c. 4000–3000 BC), named for the town of Naqada, Qena Governorate. It is divided in three sub-periods: Naqada I, II and III. A number of biological anthropological studies have found Naqada skeletal remains to have clear, Northeast African affinities.
In 1996, Lovell and Prowse also reported the presence of individuals buried at Naqada in what they interpreted to be elite, high status tombs, showing them to be an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia than to neighbouring populations in southern Egypt. Specifically, they stated the Naqda samples were "more similar to the Lower Nubian protodynastic sample than they are to the geographically more proximate Egyptian samples" in Qena and Badari. However, they found the skeletal samples from the Naqada cemeteries to be significantly different to protodynastic populations in northern Nubia and predynastic Egyptian samples from Badari and Qena, which were also significantly different to northern Nubian populations. Overall, both the elite and nonelite individuals in the Naqada cemeteries were more similar to each other than they were to the samples in northern Nubia or to samples from Badari and Qena in southern Egypt.
In 2023, Christopher Ehret reported that the physical anthropological findings from the “major burial sites of those founding locales of ancient Egypt in the fourth millennium BCE, notably El-Badari as well as Naqada, show no demographic indebtedness to the Levant”. Ehret specified that these studies revealed cranial and dental affinities with "closest parallels" to other longtime populations in the surrounding areas of northeastern Africa “such as Nubia and the northern Horn of Africa”. He further commented that the Naqada and Badarian populations did not migrate “from somewhere else but were descendants of the long-term inhabitants of these portions of Africa going back many millennia”. Ehret also cited existing, archaeological and linguistic data which he argued supported the anthropological findings.

Protodynastic Period (Naqada III)

Bioarchaeologist Nancy Lovell, had stated that there is a sufficient body of morphological evidence to indicate that ancient southern Egyptians had physical characteristics "within the range of variation" of both ancient and modern indigenous peoples in the Sahara and tropical Africa. She summarised that "In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas" but exhibited local variation in an African context.

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Posts: 2642 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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A Message to Metatron

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In response to Metetron's response to Kuelimika we have a message for Metetron. This statement by Egyptian born Egyptologist, Professor Fekri Hassan describes the importance of reconnecting ancient Egypt with it ancient African origins:

"Egypt is situated where African cultural developments conjoin, mingle, and blend with those of neighboring cultures of southwest Asia and the Mediterranean. Yet, Egyptology, through its Eurocentered perspectives, has generally been lax in exploring and valorizing Egypt’s African origins.This not only leads to theoretical shortcomings but also to serious ethical ramifications undermining efforts for a new world of justice, equity, and fraternity. Keeping with the way our world is changing and given our role as socially responsible scholars, Egyptologists need to engage in emphasizing the grounding of Egypt in African cultures and its interaction throughout its history with African cultures. This would be a first step in reconsidering the sociopolitical biases that not only isolate modern Egypt from its ancient past, but also reorient Egyptology to deal with intercultural dynamics and to become actively engaged in the current struggle to combat racism and inequities, a key component of the Sustainable Development Goals."
Dr. Hassan received his B.S. and M.S. degrees from Ain Shams University and his M.A. and Ph.D. from Southern Methodist University.

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Very well made response video, I appreciate your work.
A new and more balanced response is in the making and will be released soon, possibly early next week. This will be a single video responding to KueliMika, Mr. Imotep, The Kings Monologue and all other channels that have made response videos to me on this topic, including yours.

I'll refer you to that video for how I address several points, including those you brought up here.
This time I'm addressing the scholarly points that have been presented, as well as several accusations that have been directed towards me, but I will be fair in the way I approach it.

I believe a few of the points I brought forth were twisted, but I take partial responsibility in being the cause of that, due to the way I originally presented them.

I will clarify those too.
I do recognize that calling KueliMika "Afrocentrist" was not the best course of action on my part, so as a gesture of good faith, I changed the title of my video response to him and removed that word. I'll also refrain from collectively referring to your community as "Afrocentric".
All in all, we are all searching for the truth so if in order to find it, I need to reconsider my approach on this matter, I'm happy to do that.

For truth and honour.
Thanks

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Appreciate the gestures. Responding to all our channels in one video sounds like a big job my guy. Im afraid one could not possibly properly respond to so many arguments and address them in their entirety. But looking forward to seeing how you manage that. We can communicate through the merit of our research and agree to disagree respectfully. Looking forward to you engaging with the conversation. The real conversation and not all the distractions. Good luck in your research.

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Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

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"I only debate with equals. All others I teach" -- John Henrik Clarke.

Legendary discussion between Dr. John Henrik Clarke, Dr. Martin Gardiner Bernal (Black Athena), Professor Mary Lefkowitz (Not Out Of Africa) and Guy MacLean Rogers (Black Athena Revisited), moderated by Utrice Leid, They debate the Origins and Foundations of Western Civilization. Does Africa, Asia or Ancient Greece supply the foundation of the world we live in today?

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According to George Modelski, Thebes had about 40,000 inhabitants in 2000 BC (compared to 60,000 in Memphis, the largest city in the world at the time). By 1800 BC, the population of Memphis was down to about 30,000, making Thebes the largest city in Egypt at the time. Historian Ian Morris has estimated that by 1500 BC, Thebes may have grown to be the largest city in the world, with a population of about 75,000, a position it held until about 900 BC, when it was surpassed by Nimrud (among others).

A 2005 study on Theban nobles had found that the mummified remains had a histology which "indicated notably dark skin".

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Though the metric study of Ramkrishna Mukherjee et al. (1955) found some close resemblance with the morphology of Nubians from the A-Group culture and northern Egyptians of late era dynasties, the morphology found at Jebel Moya, Sudan was concluded to be closest in resemblance to modern West Africans. The morphological/metric studies of Lloyd Cabot Briggs (1955) and Marie-Claude Chamla (1968) indicate that the morphologies and metric patterns of various types of tropical Africans and southern Egyptians match considerably with their described Neolithic Saharan cranial morphologies and metric patterns. The metric study of N. Petit-Malt and O. Dutour (1987) indicates that Neolithic Saharan cranial metric patterns matched with the metric patterns of early southern Egyptians.The crania of modern West Africans were determined by the morphological/metric study of Jean Hiernaux (1975) to possibly be descendant from these Neolithic Saharan cranial patterns. Compared to the latter crania from Nubia/Kush and earlier Neolithic Saharan crania, crania from the Naqada culture and Badarian culture were placed between these two within a cranial spectrum. S. O. Y. Keita (1993/1995) indicate that these Neolithic Saharan cranial patterns mentioned in the morphological study of Hiernaux (1975)might "include some of the narrow-faced and narrow-nosed "Elongated" groups to which the label "Hamitic" was once applied. He has parsimoniously explained how the "Hamitic" morphology, called by him "Elongated," is indigenous to Africa, and not due to external sources. The natural geographical range of these populations included at least southern Egypt."

The morphological features (e.g., craniometric, dental) of modern West Africans and Nile Valley Africans of the Epipaleolithic were concluded by the dental/craniometric study of Eugen Strouhal (1984) to be close in resemblance to one another.Joel Irish and Christy Turner (1990) compared the dental evidence of Nubians of the Pleistocene era (e.g., Jebel Sahaba), Nubians of the Christian era, and modern West Africans; the mean measure of divergence between modern West Africans and Nubians of the Pleistocene era were found to be 0.04, and Nubians of the Pleistocene and Christian eras were found to be 0.379; consequently, Irish and Turner (1990) concluded that there is "some degree of genetic discontinuity between Pleistocene and Holocene Nubians, with the former being more similar to modern-day West Africans, whereas the latter were more similar to recent North Africans and Europeans."More specifically, the dental studies of Irish and Turner (1990) as well as C. Turner and M. Markowitz (1990) concluded that the earlier peoples of Epipaleolithic/Mesolithic and Neolithic Egypt and Nubia were not predominantly ancestral to the latter agricultural peoples of ancient Egypt and Nubia; rather, instead, concluded that the earlier peoples of Epipaleolithic/Mesolithic and Neolithic Egypt and Nubia underwent nearly complete population replacement, by latter peoples from further north, such as the Near East or Europe, by the time of ancient Egypt and ancient Nubia.Keita (1993) critiqued this shared viewpoint of Irish and Turner (1990) and explained that it "is well known and accepted, rapid evolution can occur. Also, rapid change in northeast Africa might be specifically anticipated because of the possibilities for punctuated microevolution (secondary to severe micro-selection and drift) in the early Holocene Sahara, because of the isolated communities and cyclical climatic changes there, and their possible subsequent human effects." Keita (1993) further explained: "The earliest southern predynastic culture, Badari, owes key elements to post-desiccation Saharan and also perhaps "Nubian" immigration (Hassan 1988). Biologically these people were essentially the same (see above and discussion; Keita 1990). It is also possible that the dental traits could have been introduced from an external source, and increased in frequency primarily because of natural selection, either for the trait or for a growth pattern requiring less energy. There is no evidence for sudden or gradual mass migration of Europeans or Near Easterners into the valley, as the term "replacement" would imply. There is limb ratio and craniofacial morphological and metric continuity in Upper Egypt-Nubia in a broad sense from the late paleolithic through dynastic periods, although change occurred." Keita (1995) later clarified that, while this critique was not a denial of some Near Eastern immigration having occurred, inferring mass migrations from a single data type is problematic, and that the specifics and complexities of in-situ micro-evolutionary changes and adaptations are not allowed by typological thinking.While Thomson and Maclver (1905) noted some population changes as well as population continuity, Keita (1995) further indicates that descriptive and photographic evidence of the human remains from Dynasty I of Badari-Naqada (4400 BCE - 3100 BCE), Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa (12000 BP - 6000 BP), Wadi Kubbaniya (20,000 BP), and Nazlet Khater (30,000 BP), demonstrates a general population continuity.

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The pharaoh's mummy reveals an aquiline nose and strong jaw. It stands at about 1.7 metres (5 ft 7 in). Gaston Maspero, who first unwrapped the mummy of Ramesses II, writes, "on the temples there are a few sparse hairs, but at the poll the hair is quite thick, forming smooth, straight locks about five centimeters in length. White at the time of death, and possibly auburn during life, they have been dyed a light red by the spices (henna) used in embalming ... the moustache and beard are thin. ... The hairs are white, like those of the head and eyebrows ... the skin is of earthy brown, splotched with black ... the face of the mummy gives a fair idea of the face of the living king."

In 1975, Maurice Bucaille, a French doctor, examined the mummy at the Cairo Museum and found it in poor condition. French President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing succeeded in convincing Egyptian authorities to send the mummy to France for treatment. In September 1976, it was greeted at Paris–Le Bourget Airport with full military honours befitting a king, then taken to a laboratory at the Musée de l'Homme.

The mummy was forensically tested in 1976 by Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Ceccaldi observed that the mummy had slightly wavy, red hair; from this trait combined with cranial features, he concluded that Ramesses II was of a "Berber type" and hence – according to Ceccaldi's analysis – fair-skinned. Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads. This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth".

However, Cheikh Anta Diop disputed the results of the study and argued that the structure of hair morphology cannot determine the ethnicity of a mummy and that a comparative study should have featured Nubians in Upper Egypt before a conclusive judgement was reached. In 2006, French police arrested a man who tried to sell several tufts of Ramesses' hair on the Internet. Jean-Michel Diebolt said he had gotten the relics from his late father, who worked on the analysis team in the 1970s. They were returned to Egypt the following year.

In 1980, James Harris and Edward F. Wente conducted a series of X-ray examinations on New Kingdom Pharaohs crania and skeletal remains, which included the mummified remains of Ramesses II. The analysis in general found strong similarities between the New Kingdom rulers of the 19th Dynasty and 20th Dynasty with Mesolithic Nubian samples. The authors also noted affinities with modern Mediterranean populations of Levantine origin. Harris and Wente suggested that this represented admixture as the Rammessides were of northern origin.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

I see one more YouTuber who has engaged in the discussion in the OP. His YouTube name is ShezmuOperative, and he is known as being a bit obsessed by Nora/Kemet Queen. Until now he has made eight videos where he scolds her and calls her names.

But in this video he criticizes Metatron

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This video is a response to Metatrons video(which I'll call part 1) about a response he made to a YouTuber named Kawle Mika.

In this video debunk several of the claims made by Metatron that the Egyptians were multi-racial or multi-ethnic and that they were an olive colored people....

I apologize for any errors made and this video and excuse my voice and microphone it distorts how I actually sound when vocal.

There will be a follow up part two to this video where I debunk in much a more thorough manner more of Metatron's claims about ancient Egyptian ethnic and racial identity.

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My Response To an Afrocentrist On Black Egyptians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2ujZCgeuc&t=233s

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Posts: 26762 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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For the record, the topic of this thread is on skin color yet all these classifications of 'Caucasoid' and 'Mediterranean' are based solely on craniofacial features.



However, even 'type B' skulls still possess certain traits in common with 'type A'.


Skull and cliometrician measurement apparatus, from A Second Study of the Variation and Correlation of the Human Skull, With Special Reference to the Naqada Crania
Cicely D. Fawcett and Alice Lee
(1902)

"Miss Fawcett believes the Naqada crania to be sufficiently homogeneous to justify speaking of a Naqada race. By height of the skull, the auricular height, the height and width of the face, the height of the nose, the cephalic and facial indices, this race presents affinities with Negroes. By the nasal width, the height of the orbit, the length of the palate, and the nasal index, it presents affinities with Germans...."
---Dr. Emile Massoulard, Prehistoire et Protohistoire d'Egypt

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Originally posted by Firewall:

Some updated info.

First Dynasty of Egypt

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S.O.Y. Keita, a biological anthropologist, conducted a study on First Dynasty crania from the royal tombs in Abydos and noted the predominant pattern was "Southern" or a "tropical African variant" (although others were also observed) that had affinities with Kerma Kushites. The general results demonstrate greater affinity with Upper Nile Valley groups, but also suggest clear change from earlier craniometric trends. The gene flow and movement of northern officials to the important southern city may explain the findings.

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Third Dynasty of Egypt

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Some scholars have proposed a southern origin for the Third Dynasty. Egyptologist, Flinders Petrie, believed the dynasty originated from Sudan based on the iconographic evidence whereas S.O.Y. Keita, a biological anthropologist, differed in his view and argued an origin in southern Egypt was “equally likely”. He cited a previous X-ray and anthropological study which suggested that the Third Dynasty nobles had “Nubian affinities”. The author also interpreted the portrait of Djoser as having little resemblance to “portraits of late dynastic Greek/Roman conquerors” and cited an iconographic review conducted by anthropologist, John Drake, as supporting evidence. In a separate article, Keita noted that the archaeological remains of the southern elites and their descendants which he discussed in reference to the Second Dynastic rulers and Djoser were eventually buried in the north and not at Abydos, Egypt.

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Khufu/Fourth Dynasty of Egypt

Monuments and statues

Statues

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Deitrich Wildung has examined the representation of Nubian features in Egyptian iconography since the predynastic era and has argued that Khufu had these specific, Nubian features and this was represented in his statues.

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Source wikipedia

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What's funny is that Old Kingdom Giza skulls display more 'southern' features than later dynastic skulls.

An X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (1980)
James E. Harris & Edward F. Wente

His (Seqenenre Tao's) entire lower facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian--that is, non-Egyptian--origin for Seqenenra and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true. If it is, the history of the family that reputedly drove the Hyksos from Egypt, and the history of the Seventeenth Dynasty, stand in need of considerable re-examination...

Posts: 26762 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Firewall:
Ramesses II

Mummy

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The pharaoh's mummy reveals an aquiline nose and strong jaw. It stands at about 1.7 metres (5 ft 7 in). Gaston Maspero, who first unwrapped the mummy of Ramesses II, writes, "on the temples there are a few sparse hairs, but at the poll the hair is quite thick, forming smooth, straight locks about five centimeters in length. White at the time of death, and possibly auburn during life, they have been dyed a light red by the spices (henna) used in embalming ... the moustache and beard are thin. ... The hairs are white, like those of the head and eyebrows ... the skin is of earthy brown, splotched with black ... the face of the mummy gives a fair idea of the face of the living king."

In 1975, Maurice Bucaille, a French doctor, examined the mummy at the Cairo Museum and found it in poor condition. French President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing succeeded in convincing Egyptian authorities to send the mummy to France for treatment. In September 1976, it was greeted at Paris–Le Bourget Airport with full military honours befitting a king, then taken to a laboratory at the Musée de l'Homme.

The mummy was forensically tested in 1976 by Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Ceccaldi observed that the mummy had slightly wavy, red hair; from this trait combined with cranial features, he concluded that Ramesses II was of a "Berber type" and hence – according to Ceccaldi's analysis – fair-skinned. Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads. This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth".

However, Cheikh Anta Diop disputed the results of the study and argued that the structure of hair morphology cannot determine the ethnicity of a mummy and that a comparative study should have featured Nubians in Upper Egypt before a conclusive judgement was reached. In 2006, French police arrested a man who tried to sell several tufts of Ramesses' hair on the Internet. Jean-Michel Diebolt said he had gotten the relics from his late father, who worked on the analysis team in the 1970s. They were returned to Egypt the following year.

In 1980, James Harris and Edward F. Wente conducted a series of X-ray examinations on New Kingdom Pharaohs crania and skeletal remains, which included the mummified remains of Ramesses II. The analysis in general found strong similarities between the New Kingdom rulers of the 19th Dynasty and 20th Dynasty with Mesolithic Nubian samples. The authors also noted affinities with modern Mediterranean populations of Levantine origin. Harris and Wente suggested that this represented admixture as the Rammessides were of northern origin.

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Wikipedia.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

Afr Archaeol Rev

REVIEW ARTICLE

'Critique of the “Black Pharaohs” Theme: Racist
Perspectives of Egyptian and Kushite/Nubian Interactions in Popular Media'
Keith W. Crawford
Accepted: 28 June 2021

Populations in Egypt and Kush/Nubia with less stereotypical Negro craniofacial features, such as narrower nasal apertures, narrower face, and less lower facial protrusion (alveolar prognathism), were classified as Caucasians instead of recognizing this array of traits as a variant African phenotype adapted to the Nile valley over many millennia (Keita, 2004).
Importantly, some of the traits that were used to distinguish “races,” such as soft tissues (nose, lips), hair texture, and skin pigmentation, cannot be determined from the skeleton. Illustrating these points, Ahmed Batrawi (1935) shows a skull of an X-Group Nubian who has “typical negro hair” but a face “not typically negro” (Fig. 1). How might this skull have been classified had the hair not been attached? This skull captures the complexity and elasticity of population variation in the Nile valley.

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

TBH, considering that you have people arguing over the shape of the Earth on platforms like YouTube, there probably isn't a single topic out there that laypeople don't argue about. We really do all have our own customized versions of reality, like each of those blind men feeling the elephant in that old parable.

You'd think that an academic consensus worth shit would come about over this topic, but like Swenet has pointed out, this is an issue where academia has failed the general public. I'm still scratching my head over why that is. In some cases it could be good old-fashioned racial bias or cultural conditioning, but I also suspect a lot of Western academics don't want to say anything that might piss off the melanophobic modern North Africans whose permission they need to do excavations and other field work in North African countries. Regardless, their cowardice is a big reason this issue remains so heated among laypeople today.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
I hate to get conspiratorial but I think such misinformation/disinformation is being spread on purpose as part of a massive psychological operations scheme. Such is definitely the case with the 'flat Earth' nonsense that is spreading. But in regards to the ethnic identity of the true Egyptians, notice how only recently Baladi are trying to claim that identity for themselves as opposed to the Arabs and other Afrangi who claim that ancient heritage for their own purposes. You have many European elite groups and organizations especially occult ones like Freemasons and Illuminists who have for centuries claimed Egypt as well so it appears there's a vested interest in this downright cultural appropriation.

And yes I know it also cultural appropriation for African Americans or other Africans to claim Egypt as their heritage when they are not of Nile Valley descent though most Afrocentrists/Africanists that I'm aware of simply claim Egypt as an indigenous African culture and NOT part of their own heritage per say.

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I don't know about the Illuminati or the Freemasons (I have one African-American online friend who is a Mason, and suffice to say he seems not to have gotten the memo on them not considering AE or other ancient North Africans to have been Black), but I do know ancient Egypt is one of those cultures the New Age and other "mystical" movements love to appropriate the hell out of. Something about the Egyptians possessing lost wisdom and all that. Now, some New Agers may be liberal hippies, but as I've said before, there is in fact a strain of racialist that is fond of that shit too. Those guys wouldn't want to hear that the ancient Egyptians, the source of so much "esoteric knowledge", were Black Untermensch.

And then of course you have the strain of New Age thought that thinks it was the (presumably White) Atlanteans who civilized the Egyptians, Maya, and so on. Or maybe it was aliens. Or Atlantean aliens.

--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Youtubers and other online enthusiasts still argue over different statues original color like the famous portrait of queen Tiye, made of Yew wood. Here is some arguments between Youtubers Kings Monologue and Egyptologist 7 about the portrait. Seems these two have an eternal diskussion about several topics.

Egyptologist 7
The Kings Monologue USURPS, DEFACES & REPLACES Out Of Hate - Queen Tiye

Kings Monologue
But what did she REALLY look like?

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Egyptian museum in Berlin's page, note what they says the materials are
Yew wood, silver, gold and faience inlays
no mention of varnish or paint


https://www.egyptian-museum-berlin.com/c52.php

Now look at the Berlin Museum's entry on the famous Nefertiti bust

https://www.egyptian-museum-berlin.com/c53.php

part of the texts says:

"This bust is one of the first ranking works of Egyptian art mostly due to the excellent preservation of the colour"

yet in the italicized caption:

"Limestone, gypsum, crystal and wax"

So the Berlin Museum is not helping the situation by leaving paint materials lists or if it has a clear(ish) coating of protective varnish


King's Monologue is trying to get people to become
paid members of his patron and he's marketing his reconstructions to people who look West African.


Egyptologist7 aka phoenician7 shows no evidence of being an Egyptologist has her own agenda, to prove the Egyptians were Caucasoid, the words she uses

Both of these youtuber's are highly biased and cherry pick accordingly

____________________________________________

King's Monologue in his rebuttal to Egyptologist7
prefers this photo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F44wpVAiXPk&t=394s

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the different arguments that are typically
made

A) she's dark skinned look at the photo

B) no that is just raw wood

A) yes but they picked that color wood to match her color

B) yes but that wood has darkened over a couple thousand years
___________________________

notice here arguer B has compromised their original argument, that since it is raw wood that fact has nothing to do with skin color. They could have stuck to that, instead when arguer A says
" yes but they picked that color wood to match her color"
arguer B accepts that update (which may or may not be true, there is no way of knowing) but they add a new counter argument about the color "yes but that wood has darkened over a couple thousand years"

Then this other issue about varnish comes up which further complicates things. Varnish is a clear protective coating, often shinny. The oldest varnish that still exists can be found on wooden
mummy cases from Egyptian tombs that are more than 2,500 years old. This varnish, made with five or
six parts oil to one part tree sap (resin), and without a cooked-in solvent, would have been
warmed and then applied to the cases with a spatula

I'm not sure if was used on sculptures put it was used on paintings. Varnish yellows or grays with age and darkens slightly

_______________________________________



This photo looks authentic to me as a high resolution image of the sculpture in full lighting rather than the moodier dimmer lighting that
some museums like to use in their galleries. The size of the head is about the size of a softball This photo was on the Study Blue site in 2015 but no longer. To me it's hard to tell about the face areas, it could have have paint
It looks slightly shiny, could have varnish
or could have been finely polished with no varnish. None of this cab be verified without on site testing.
And you can predict by people biases on what particular photo they might try to argue it's painted or varnish but if it's on not on their preferred photo they might turn to the raw wood argument, whichever confirm their bias ("confirmation bias")







Queen Tiye relief

these profiles look African to me



Does not look like hair any current African tribe has and the idea maybe it straitened due to embalming chemicals could be true but does not seems convincing to me.
So how do I put together this hair and the African
looking facial structure in this art?
Does saying "African diversity" solve any odd looking situation? I don't think so.
To me the mummy's facial structure could be compatible with that art but the hair seems inconsistent. I can't figure that out.
Maybe there were ethnic Africans in that region who had that hair but they are now a lost ethic group. On the other hand her haplogroup, the haplogroup of most of the Amarna is supposedly K a subclade of U8 possibly originating in West Asia

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Haplogroup K (mtDNA)


The more ancient evidence of Haplogroup K has been found in the remains of three individuals from Upper Palaeolithic Magdalenian of Spain 11,950 years ago[30][user-generated source] and in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site of Tell Ramad, Syria, dating from c. 6000 BC.[31] The clade was also discovered in skeletons of early farmers in Central Europe dated to around 5500–5300 BC, at percentages that were nearly double the percentage present in modern Europe. Some techniques of farming, together with associated plant and animal breeds, spread into Europe from the Near East. The evidence from ancient DNA suggests that the Neolithic culture spread by human migration.[32][33][34]

Analysis of the mtDNA of Ötzi, the frozen mummy from 3300 BC found on the Austria–Italy border, has shown that Ötzi belongs to the K1 subclade. It cannot be categorized into any of the three modern branches of that subclade (K1a, K1b or K1c). The new subclade has provisionally been named K1ö for Ötzi.[35] Multiplex assay study was able to confirm that the Iceman's mtDNA belongs to a new European mtDNA clade with a very limited distribution amongst modern data sets.[36]

A woman buried some time between 2650 and 2450 BC in a presumed Amorite tomb at Terqa (Tell Ashara), Middle Euphrates Valley, Syria carried Haplogroup K.[37]

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Posts: 43322 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,
Egyptologist7 aka phoenician7 shows no evidence of being an Egyptologist has her own agenda, to prove the Egyptians were Caucasoid, the words she uses

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Posts: 2961 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

I don't know about the Illuminati or the Freemasons (I have one African-American online friend who is a Mason, and suffice to say he seems not to have gotten the memo on them not considering AE or other ancient North Africans to have been Black), but I do know ancient Egypt is one of those cultures the New Age and other "mystical" movements love to appropriate the hell out of. Something about the Egyptians possessing lost wisdom and all that. Now, some New Agers may be liberal hippies, but as I've said before, there is in fact a strain of racialist that is fond of that shit too. Those guys wouldn't want to hear that the ancient Egyptians, the source of so much "esoteric knowledge", were Black Untermensch.

And then of course you have the strain of New Age thought that thinks it was the (presumably White) Atlanteans who civilized the Egyptians, Maya, and so on. Or maybe it was aliens. Or Atlantean aliens.

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Posts: 26762 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti
To Archaeopteryx, the only reason why the debate seems 'forever' is because certain ideologues make it into one.

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Posts: 2961 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
It is also telling that much of the debate is conducted by people who do not descend from ancient Egypt and who have no connection to Egypt at all.

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Posts: 7379 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
It is also telling that much of the debate is conducted by people who do not descend from ancient Egypt and who have no connection to Egypt at all.

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Again, this is coming from the Swedish poster who came to ES to argue against fringe "Black Native American" hypotheses on behalf of Natives. Why do you wag your finger at non-Egyptian nationals discussing ancient Egypt and how its people may have looked while caping for Native Americans as much as you have?

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Posts: 2961 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
As I explained before I did it because I have Native American friends, and I also was invited to different groups and fora held by Native Americans. And since I saw some pseudo historical threads on ES regarding ancient Americas I decided to debate about those questions.

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Posts: 7379 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
To Lioness, I think the below portrait is the only one known to portray Tiye's authentic skin color other than her famous bust.



^ Note she her complexion is about as dark as her husband.

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this is the original, same situation

there is no basis to use the word "authentic" when you say "the only one known to portray Tiye's authentic skin color"
It is simply a painting like any other painting. It depicts Amenhotep III and the condition of the painting, with Tiye with
only a dark brown exposed arm and covered legs intact.



similarly Tiye's legs looking dark reddish brown

However, Amenhotep III's features not resembling this other painting fragment from his tomb, moved to the Louvre


Nor this famous colossal British Museum piece,
Amenhotep III


The difference I have no explanation for but there
are several more sculptures and reliefs of Amenhotep III and they vary

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
To Lioness, I think the below portrait is the only one known to portray Tiye's authentic skin color other than her famous bust.

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Posts: 43322 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
^^ Well, you may believe what you want, it is of no importance. And many of my friends are active in other fora, Egyptsearch is not so important for them since it mostly do not pertain to them. And they debate people like Clyde Winters on other social media (as for example Facebook and YouTube).

There is a difference in being interested in an Ancient culture and to obsess over one specific aspect of it, like race and skin tone, which in the end is a rather trivial matter. But as a result of western obsession with race, that aspect of ancient Egypt has come to be exaggerated among amateur historians on the internet. This in turn have historical and cultural reasons that are far from the reality of Ancient Egypt.

When regarding arguing over a special culture or a countrys history without any connection to that country, or people who live there, it sometimes become somewhat silly, especially if there are ideological motifs behind it.

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Posts: 7379 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

this is the original, same situation

there is no basis to use the word "authentic" when you say "the only one known to portray Tiye's authentic skin color"
It is simply a painting like any other painting. It depicts Amenhotep III and the condition of the painting, with Tiye with
only a dark brown exposed arm and covered legs intact.



similarly Tiye's legs looking dark reddish brown...

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Posts: 26762 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged |