quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Because of all the unique Biblical prophecies and events that line up perfectly with who we are -- not to mention all of the historical evidence. Black people didn't just wake up one day and say "hey let's be Jews because it looks cool." The Bible says the Israelites would remember themselves in the land of their captivities.

BARUCH 2:30

"30 For I knew that they would not hear me, because it is a stiffnecked people: but in the land of their captivities they shall remember themselves."

It's a spiritual thing as well, so if you aren't spiritual then you wouldn't understand any of it to begin with.

Regardless, if you're so convinced it isn't true then it shouldn't bother you. Way more important things going on in the black community to worry about right?

For instance; black people still voting in american elections after all this time, still thinking that the ruling class actually views them as legit "american" citizens, or that either of the two political parties will ever have their best interest in mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone who claims that every single black american is an Israelite is crazy, of course there are lineages among us that are not apart of the majority. That's common sense.

But following that logic, jewish people also come from a variety of different lineages -- possibly even more lineages than african americans. Does this also "end it" for them as well? Are they having an identity crisis?

The thing about people like you is that you never fully examine your arguments or test them out in reverse before you apply them.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone who claims that every single black american is an Israelite is crazy, of course there are lineages among us that are not apart of the majority. That's common sense.

But following that logic, jewish people also come from a variety of different lineages -- possibly even more lineages than african americans. Does this also "end it" for them as well? Are they having an identity crisis?

The thing about people like you is that you never fully examine your arguments or test them out in reverse before you apply them.

---

I don't believe modern Israelis are the same as the ancients, anyone who does is clearly lying

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Brandon:
Mizrahi Jews in the country might be close, as would most Palestinian “Arabs”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:
There aren't many African ethnic groups making these claims who could be the source population for Afro Americans. This obsession is crazy, even if they were black, they wouldn't have been the source population of Afro Americans. Some people have identity crisis.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone who claims that every single black american is an Israelite is crazy, of course there are lineages among us that are not apart of the majority. That's common sense.

But following that logic, jewish people also come from a variety of different lineages -- possibly even more lineages than african americans. Does this also "end it" for them as well? Are they having an identity crisis?

The thing about people like you is that you never fully examine your arguments or test them out in reverse before you apply them.

---

I don't believe modern Israelis are the same as the ancients, anyone who does is clearly lying

---

Mizrahi Jews in the country might be close, as would most Palestinian “Arabs”. I agree though that Ashkenazi Jews, even though they do have some Levantine ancestry, have received enough European admixture over the centuries that they wouldn’t look the same as ancient Hebrews.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Because 1)black Americans had Judeo-Christianity forced on us by Euro-Americans and its become an important identifier

---

Uh... what are you talking about? Historical records from as early as 1714 record the fact that Judaism was the religion of ancient [west] "Africans" long before Christianity or the arrival of any europeans.



"Atlas Geographus: Or, A Compleat System of Geography, Ancient and Modern" page 39 (1714)

https://books.google.com/books/about/For_Africa_Containing_What_is_of_Most_Us.html?id=8bdZAAAAcAAJ

And a paper published by Cambridge University records the fact that black Jews in west africa were more likely to be captured and sold into the transatlantic slave trade.



"Blacks Jews: the religious challenge or politics versus religion" by Ulysses Santamaria, page 235 (1987) European Journal of Sociology, Cambridge University Press

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
The Heeb mantra that white people are the Edomites is even more laughable considering the 1) Herodians were Edomites

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How is it a "Heeb mantra" when you just confirmed it and agreed with it? You do know that the herodians were what we would today consider to be white europeans right?....

This is a photo of Antipater the Idumaean (Idumaean is greek for edomite....), he was a greek from macedonia and the father of the herodian dynasty. You can also look up photos of statues of the herods to see that they too were also what we would consider to be white europeans today.



https://gw.geneanet.org/peter781?lang=en&n=d+idudee&p=antipater
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:

There aren't many African ethnic groups making these claims who could be the source population for Afro Americans. This obsession is crazy, even if they were black, they wouldn't have been the source population of Afro Americans. Some people have identity crisis.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:
There aren't many African ethnic groups making these claims who could be the source population for Afro Americans. This obsession is crazy, even if they were black, they wouldn't have been the source population of Afro Americans. Some people have identity crisis.

---

No one has identity issues. Its only some wacko fringe group. Not sure why it would represent all Black Americans. A fringe group of Igbos also believe they are the Jews. But no one is claiming Igbos as a whole have an identity crisis.

Every group has fringe circles.
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Look at all the [west] african tribes and peoples who are "wacko fringe" and having an "identity crisis".



"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11-12 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

* shrugs *

Look at all the other historical evidence (even what I've shared in this thread) that links black americans to black Jews captured in west africa during the transatlantic slave trade, and the historical evidence that records "ancient" black west africans having Judaic culture since long before christianity and long before the arrival of europeans on the continent.

Maybe those who criticize do so because of a lack of knowledge and research on the topic? That's what I'd like to think at least, hopefully we are not being willfully ignorant. But those who choose to be willfully ignorant can feel free to do so...

We know we aren't crazy, and we actually laugh when people try to claim "BHI" is something crazy, random and new that started in america when undeniable and recorded history completely says otherwise.
 

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Posted by Elijah The Tishbite (Member # 10328) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Look at all the [west] african tribes and peoples who are "wacko fringe" and having an "identity crisis".



"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11-12 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

* shrugs *

Look at all the other historical evidence (even what I've shared in this thread) that links black americans to black Jews captured in west africa during the transatlantic slave trade, and the historical evidence that records "ancient" black west africans having Judaic culture since long before christianity and long before the arrival of europeans on the continent.

Maybe those who criticize do so because of a lack of knowledge and research on the topic? That's what I'd like to think at least, hopefully we are not being willfully ignorant. But those who choose to be willfully ignorant can feel free to do so...

We know we aren't crazy, and we actually laugh when people try to claim "BHI" is something crazy, random and new that started in america when undeniable and recorded history completely says otherwise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:
There aren't many African ethnic groups making these claims who could be the source population for Afro Americans. This obsession is crazy, even if they were black, they wouldn't have been the source population of Afro Americans. Some people have identity crisis.

---

No one has identity issues. Its only some wacko fringe group. Not sure why it would represent all Black Americans. A fringe group of Igbos also believe they are the Jews. But no one is claiming Igbos as a whole have an identity crisis.

Every group has fringe circles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] As far as I know(recall) most experts believe the closest Jews to the OG are folks like the Yemeni Jews, also Iraqi Jews I think...The Ashkenazi are mostly Converts even though some do have ties to the Levant...That said its not like conversion was all that bad, different peoples converted to Judaism and were accepted. Then there's folks like the Edomites/Samaratins that practiced a Moses based Monotheism despite the ethnic hated against them in the bible...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarapis:
Here is an interesting video on the Samaritans, who are currently facing a decline due to a lack of women. As a result, they are mostly marrying Slavic women, particularly from Ukraine.

---

quote:

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HOSEA 1:10 (KJV)

"10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

---

quote:

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As of 2024, only one study has directly examined ancient Israelite genetic material. The analysis examined First Temple-era skeletal remains excavated in Abu Ghosh, and showed one male individual belonged to the J2 Y-DNA haplogroup, a set of closely-related DNA sequences thought to have originated in the Caucasus or Eastern Anatolia, as well as the T1a and H87 mitochondrial DNA haplogroups, the former of which has also been detected among Canaanites, and the latter in Basques, Tunisian Arabs, and Iraqis, suggesting a Mediterranean, Near Eastern, or perhaps Arabian origin.[171]

A 2004 study (by Shen et al.) comparing Samaritans to several Jewish populations (including Ashkenazi Jews, Iraqi Jews, Libyan Jews, Moroccan Jews, and Yemenite Jews) found that "the principal components analysis suggested a common ancestry of Samaritan and Jewish patrilineages

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarapis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] As far as I know(recall) most experts believe the closest Jews to the OG are folks like the Yemeni Jews, also Iraqi Jews I think...The Ashkenazi are mostly Converts even though some do have ties to the Levant...That said its not like conversion was all that bad, different peoples converted to Judaism and were accepted. Then there's folks like the Edomites/Samaratins that practiced a Moses based Monotheism despite the ethnic hated against them in the bible...

---

No, Yemeni Jews are not much different from Yemeni Muslims. The closest modern people to the ancient Jews are the Samaritans, Iraqi Jews, and Iranian Jews.

https://imgur.com/Y7UWnJv

Here is an interesting video on the Samaritans, who are currently facing a decline due to a lack of women. As a result, they are mostly marrying Slavic women, particularly from Ukraine.

https://youtu.be/Ey7FB44YS0o?si=FYcn9XtVFuKDNJPU

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
True but remember, long before there were 'Black Hebrew Israelites' there British Hebrew Israelites with Anglo-Saxons claiming to be among the lost tribes of Israel in Europe. So you see it's not just Afro-Americans. There was even a small cult in Japan some decades ago making similar claims. It seems everyone wants to be 'the chosen people'. LOL

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quote:

---

The Jewish history of Mali begins in the 8th century, when multi-lingual African-Jewish Radhanites first settled in Timbuktu in the Songhai Empire. These medieval merchants established a trading center in the city, from which a network of trading routes were created through the desert.

After 1492, more Jews arrived in Mali following the Expulsion of Jews from Spain. During the 14th and 15th centuries, Sephardi Jews settled in Timbuktu from Portugal and Spain. In 1492, Askia Muhammad I, the ruler of the Askiya dynasty of the Songhai Empire, threatened Jews with death if they refused to convert to Islam. While some Jews chose to convert to Islam, the majority fled. In 1526, the Berber Andalusi historian Leo Africanus described the ruler's persecution of the Jewish community: "The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:
The lack of haplogroup J and any Middle Eastern ancestry refutes those fringe theories

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
]Uh... what are you talking about? Historical records from as early as 1714 record the fact that Judaism was the religion of ancient [west] "Africans" long before Christianity or the arrival of any europeans.



"Atlas Geographus: Or, A Compleat System of Geography, Ancient and Modern" page 39 (1714)

https://books.google.com/books/about/For_Africa_Containing_What_is_of_Most_Us.html?id=8bdZAAAAcAAJ

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quote:

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"Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this Country which are inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People. Judaism was the Religion of the - ancient Africans for a long Time and succeeded by Christianity ; but Mahometanism (Mohammadism)
prevail'd in the 208th Year of the Hegyra (The Hijrah was the journey the Islamic prophet Muhammad and his followers took from Mecca to Medina) when all the Jews, Christians, and Professors of the African Religion that could be found,were put to Death ; yet in Process of Time their intestine Quarrels made them neglect
Mahomet's Law, and revolt from the Caliph
of Bagdad, for which they were feverely
punish'd by the Mahometan Caliphs, who caus'd all their Books to be burnt, on Suspicion that the Knowledge of the Arts and
Sciences prompted them to contemn Makomet's Law. The Africans on the Coast are
still very gross Idolaters."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
red and sold into the transatlantic slave trade.



"Blacks Jews: the religious challenge or politics versus religion" by Ulysses Santamaria, page 235 (1987) European Journal of Sociology, Cambridge University Press

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents

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quote:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan%C3%A7ados

Lançados

The lançados (literally, the thrown out ones[1] or the cast out ones) were settlers and colonizers of Portuguese origin in Senegambia, Cabo Verde, Guinea, Sierra Leone, and other areas on the coast of West Africa. Many were Jews—often New Christians—escaping persecution from the Portuguese Inquisition.

Lançados often took African wives from local ruling families, thereby securing protection and trading ties that worked to the advantage of both sides. They established clandestine trading networks in weaponry, spices, and slaves. This black market angered the Portuguese Crown by disrupting its ability to collect taxes.

Although never large in numbers, the mixed-race children born to the lançados and their African wives and concubines served as crucial intermediaries between Europeans and native Africans. They were often bilingual and grew up in both cultures, sometimes working as interpreters with traders. These mixed-race people wielded significant power in the early development of port economies in Bissau, Cacheu, and surrounding areas.

---

quote:

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What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:
When I see haplogroup J I'll believe these fringe theories. There may have been some converts to Judaism via trade, but that wouldn't make these people the "original Jews," not even Lemba make that claim and they do have haplogroup J

---

Can you please respond to the last comment I posted @ you?

Lyinass will not be addressed (for obvious reasons stated before) but mainly because he is ignoring the plain and clear reading of what the text(s) say and is trying to cause confusion because as he has thoroughly demonsrated over the years, he hates the idea of black people claiming to be Jews.

Whenever sources about black Jews come out, he's all of a sudden an expert on why the information" doesn't actually mean what it says "or why the information is "not credible".

I'm surprised it took him this long to jump in this thread and start twisting the sources I've been posting.
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Actually I will address Lyinass just this one time, to demonstrate what a coping anti-black liar he is. Since this thread deals specifically with a topic I have done extensive research on, and since future readers may not be aware of the fact that Lyinass has already been exposed as a lying racist white man who been pretending to be a black woman and trolling this website for the last 10+ years. And that he has a strong disdain for black people who identify as Jews.

Lyinass claims the relevant portion on page 39 of this source isn't speaking about black Jews when it says "judaism was the religion of ancient africans for a long time".

The entire portion of page 39 is speaking about blacks or negroes. It literally says so at the top of the page. It literally informs the reader that the next topic is "blacks" or black people, and then it goes on to talk about them.

Here is the page again, for reference:



Lyinass is trying to separate black people in west africa from everything in red that says "Judaism was the reliigion of the ancient africans for a long time and succeeded by christianity..." and then it goes on to talk about how these black Jews in west africa were conquered by islamic muslims (mahometonism) who forced them to convert to islam and burnt all their books. According to Lyinass, this isn't talking about black people or black Jews in west africa -- he claims it's talking about non-blacks in north africa.

This is an easy lie to expose because other sources like the jewish virtual library website confirm that these things are indeed events that happened to Jews in west africa. It confirms that Jews in west africa were invaded by islamic muslims, forced to convert to islam, and their written texts were lost.

quote:

---

The decline of the Jewish communities of West Africa can be traced to the arrival of Muslim invaders in the 14th and 15th centuries. North and West African Jews banded with other local communities of Berbers, Christians and Greeks to ward of the invaders, but eventually succumbed. Many were forced to convert to Islam sold into slavery or simply massacred. In the face of this persecution written traditions, such as the Torah, were lost.

- Nigeria Virtual Jewish History Tour

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Actually I will address Lyinass just this one time, to demonstrate what a coping anti-black liar he is. Since this thread deals specifically with a topic I have done extensive research on, and since future readers may not be aware of the fact that Lyinass has already been exposed as a lying racist white man who been pretending to be a black woman and trolling this website for the last 10+ years. And that he has a strong disdain for black people who identify as Jews.

Lyinass claims the relevant portion on page 39 of this source isn't speaking about black Jews when it says "judaism was the religion of ancient africans for a long time".

The entire portion of page 39 is speaking about blacks or negroes. It literally says so at the top of the page. It literally informs the reader that the next topic is "blacks" or black people, and then it goes on to talk about them.

Here is the page again, for reference:



Lyinass is trying to separate black people in west africa from everything in red that says "Judaism was the reliigion of the ancient africans for a long time and succeeded by christianity..." and then it goes on to talk about how these black Jews in west africa were conquered by islamic muslims (mahometonism) who forced them to convert to islam and burnt all their books. According to Lyinass, this isn't talking about black people or black Jews in west africa -- he claims it's talking about non-blacks in north africa.

This is an easy lie to expose because other sources like the jewish virtual library website confirm that these things are indeed events that happened to Jews in west africa. It confirms that Jews in west africa were invaded by islamic muslims, forced to convert to islam, and their written texts were lost.

quote:

---

The decline of the Jewish communities of West Africa can be traced to the arrival of Muslim invaders in the 14th and 15th centuries. North and West African Jews banded with other local communities of Berbers, Christians and Greeks to ward of the invaders, but eventually succumbed. Many were forced to convert to Islam sold into slavery or simply massacred. In the face of this persecution written traditions, such as the Torah, were lost.

- Nigeria Virtual Jewish History Tour

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

---

Lyinass also claimed/asserted there was no Hebrew writing in west africa, that lie has also been debunked by this source. There are other sources that also speak about black Jews in west africa having a Torah -- even a Torah written in aramaic.

I could stop right there because the fact that Lyinass is a deceiving liar who insidiously targets black Jews has already been demonstrated. But I'll keep going.

Regarding the next source I posted, Lyinass claims the quote from the Cambridge source isn't in the primary source (The Lost Tribes a Myth, Godbey) but it definitely is and I'll wait to see if he again tries to claim it isn't before slapping him in the face with it. Also, if Lyinass is claiming that Cambridge university is falsely attributing writings to authors who did not write these things, that says more about Lyinass than it does about Cambridge. Doesn't it?

Regarding the second source, note how Lyinass tries to make it seem as though "part Jewish negroes" in the text is supposed to mean negroes who descended from lanćados (white jewish men) who impregnated black women. When what the author really means by "part Jewish negroes" is negroes who at least practiced Judaism to some extent, however minor that extent may have been. That passage says nothing at all about mixed descendants of lanćados or white jewish men who slept with black african women-- the title of the f*cking paper is "Blacks Jews...". Lyinass knows he is full of sh*t on this point, which is why he said the author is "perhaps" talking about lanćados. Like I said, he is here to lie and cause confusion when it comes to the topic of black Jews.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Elijah

If you can't determine any of that from reading the source, or even after all the additional info I've posted, then I don't know what else to tell you. It honestly sounds like a you problem.

I'm also still waiting for you to respond to what I asked you about the contradictory claims you've made in this thread. Please respond... I'm not going to repost the question(s), because I don't want you to play games and start accusing me of "trolling".

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
Elijah, the source and the additional information I provided explains the exact location in Africa that is being spoken about. It says nothing about converts nor do you have anything to support the idea that ancient Israelites went all the way to west africa to convert indigenous black africans.

Now, earlier in the thread you said you don't believe modern israelis are the same people as the ancient Israelites.

Then, you said the lack of haplogroup J among blacks makes it impossible for blacks to be Israelites.

Yet, modern israelis have haplogroup J... but you admit they are not related to ancient Israelites. Do you not see how you are 100% contradicting yourself?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
...but modern israelis have haplogroup J.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

...but modern israelis have haplogroup J.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

...but modern israelis have haplogroup J.

---

So did ancient Israelites has was shown to you too many times in multiple threads, yet you seem to be in denial of this.

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quote:

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...can you provide any exhaustive and comprehensive research on ancient Israelites that proves haplogroup J (or any other "middle eastern" haplogroup) is a 100% accurate representation of the entire ancient Israelite population as a whole?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:


Not that any of this will change Taz's faith-based ideas about his ancestry. Religious faith, particularly as held by fanatics, tends not to be amenable to factual reality.

---

This means literally nothing coming from an autistic, middle-aged caucasian man who is likely unemployed and spends 95% of his time fetishizing black people in his amateur artwork.

I subscribe to what the Bible says + historical records and archaelogy -- you, on the other hand, subscribe to incomplete and extremely limited "genetic data" that does not imply or conclude any of the definitive things that you erroneously assert it does.
 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
^ Haha, we all know you on the other hand are so well-adjusted and have your life in order.
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
^ Of course nobody is perfect but I'm doing pretty well. More importantly, I know my place and how to engage in respectful dialogue when I am not being intentionally provoked. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
^ Of course nobody is perfect but I'm doing pretty well. More importantly, I know my place and how to engage in respectful dialogue when I am not being intentionally provoked. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Brandon, even if I felt that were necessary:

Are there enough "aDNA samples" available to paint the entire genetic picture of the Israelites with 100% accuracy, and demonsrate beyond any reasonable doubt that any modern population(s) are directly related to the ancient Israelites?

Has there been any exhaustive and comprehensive research on "ancient Israelite DNA" that leaves no room for doubt or question?

If the answer is no, then literally nobody should be bringing up DNA in discussions about who is or isn't a descendant of ancient Israelites because DNA cannot prove it one way or the other.

---

Sampling bias can be an issue with aDNA research. But even assuming that these ancient Israelite ancestors of modern African-Americans somehow represented a small enclave unrelated to other populations in the region (despite Biblical records of the Israelite and Judahite kingdoms covering a sizable chunk of modern Palestine during their heyday instead of just being some tiny isolated group), we can expect there would have been just enough gene flow between that enclave and their neighbors for African-American-like ancestry to turn up in the Levantine aDNA we do have. Now, I do think ancient Levantines had some African ancestry, and I don't doubt that some of it is "sub-Saharan" in origin (probably arriving there by way of Egypt and Nubia), but so far it doesn't appear to be the kind of African ancestry that African-Americans predominantly have (i.e. West African-related).
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
So then, essentially, the answer to the question I posed to you is a "no".
 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
Of course, we all know it's actually ancient Israelites who descend from African-Americans. Apparently, some Black nationalist peeps from Compton took a time machine, traveled to late Bronze Age Palestine, and established the kingdoms of Israel and Judah as well as writing the whole Bible and founding Judaism and Christianity. The BHI have had it backwards all along!

Me, I'm just pissed they didn't take a detour to the Mesozoic Era and photograph some dinosaurs for us all.
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
The fact that you couldn't answer my simple yes/no question with a simple yes/no answer, and instead tried to sidestep by responding with a bunch of non-sequitir BS, speaks volumes.

And now that your pseudo logic has been dismantled, you are making jokes about black folk in compton. Poking fun at the black community appears to be a common hobby amongst certain non-black members of this forum, especially when it comes to whether or not black people are Jews/Israelites.

The idea of black people being Jews obviously boils the blood of certain individuals and brings out the worst in them.

With that being said, please refer back to my prior comment about you being a middle-aged, unemployed caucasian man with autism who spends 95% of his time fetishizing black people in his amateur artwork.
 

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Posted by Elijah The Tishbite (Member # 10328) on :
 
There's just no proof, black Americans descend from many different African groups, not a single lineage. People holding on to lies to feel good.
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Elijah, what proof have you shared? All you've done in this thread is contradict yourself, and whenever I point it out and ask you to explain, you ignore it.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:

...here we go again.

Elijah has just admit more than once that it's common knowledge modern israelis are not the same people as the ancient Israelites... yet you for some reason feel the need to engage me? Strange.

Doug explained ad nauseum how you (djehuti) were misrepresenting incomplete data to push a narrative.

Nobody seems to be able to answer this question, we all know the reason why... but for some reason a small minority of you on this website continue to misrepresent "genetic data" and babble on about the supposed "DNA" of the ancient Israelites:

quote:

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...can you provide any exhaustive and comprehensive research on ancient Israelites that proves haplogroup J (or any other "middle eastern" haplogroup) is a 100% accurate representation of the entire ancient Israelite population as a whole?

---

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LOL "Here we go again indeed". Elijah nor I nor anybody else for that matter said anything about modern Israelis being the same as ancient Israelites but that does not mean there there is no genetic connection at all. I've already shown you posts in other threads showing modern Israelis to share Y lineages like J with ancient Israelites and other Southwest Asians.



Not only Y lineages but also mitochondrial lineages as well as certain autosomal markers as well. And of course those Israelis closest to ancient Israelites were the Mizrahi Jews followed by Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi being the most distant being intermediate between the other Jewish groups and Europeans of course.



Can you provide us similar evidence for Africans or African Americans showing such a relation??
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
^ Clearly has not been keeping up with this thread and the points that have been made.

For any future readers, please take note of how:

1) I've asked several times for someone to provide an example of exhaustive and comprehensive research that shows ancient Israelites had XYZ haplogroup and that XYZ haplogroup is said to represent the entire ancient Israelite population as a whole beyond any reasonable doubt.

(They won't and can't provide this evidence because it does not exist and they are fully aware of this...)

2) Nobody has provided such evidence, yet they will continue to make appeals to "ancient Israelite" DNA without citing exhaustive and comprehensive research that supports their opinion(s).

3) Even some of the most notable jewish organizations acknowledge the fact that genetic testing cannot determine who is a Jew.

quote:

---

"As mentioned, Jewish identity follows the maternal line. If your mother is Jewish, you’re Jewish. However, there is no such thing as a “Jewish gene,” so genetic testing cannot conclusively state whether a person is Jewish."

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4240316/jewish/Can-a-DNA-Test-Determine-Jewish-Status.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
^ Clearly has not been keeping up with this thread and the points that have been made.

For any future readers, please take note of how:

1) I've asked several times for someone to provide an example of exhaustive and comprehensive research that shows ancient Israelites had XYZ haplogroup and that XYZ haplogroup is said to represent the entire ancient Israelite population as a whole beyond any reasonable doubt.

(They won't and can't provide this evidence because it does not exist and they are fully aware of this...)

2) Nobody has provided such evidence, yet they will continue to make appeals to "ancient Israelite" DNA without citing exhaustive and comprehensive research that supports their opinion(s).

3) Even some of the most notable jewish organizations acknowledge the fact that genetic testing cannot determine who is a Jew.

quote:

---

"As mentioned, Jewish identity follows the maternal line. If your mother is Jewish, you’re Jewish. However, there is no such thing as a “Jewish gene,” so genetic testing cannot conclusively state whether a person is Jewish."

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4240316/jewish/Can-a-DNA-Test-Determine-Jewish-Status.htm

---

Sometimes, I think the people on this site who make these silly arguments are simply bored and have nothing better to do with their time.

---

quote:

---

Perhaps three to five million Jews dwelled outside Palestine in the roughly four centuries that stretched from Alexander to Titus. The era of the Second Temple brought the issue into sharp focus, inescapably so. The Temple still stood, a reminder of the hallowed past, and, through most of the era, a Jewish regime existed in Palestine. Yet the Jews of the diaspora, from Italy to Iran, far outnumbered those in the homeland. Although Jerusalem loomed large in their self-perception as a nation, few of them had seen it, and few were likely to.[81]

---

quote:

---

"Indeed, many must have reacted to the catastrophe with despair and total abandonment of Judaism. Apostates from Judaism (aside from converts to Christianity) received little notice in antiquity from either Jewish or non-Jewish writers, but ambitious individuals are known to have turned pagan before the war, and it stands to reason that many more did so after its disastrous conclusion. It is impossible to determine the number who joined the budding Christian movement and the number who disappeared into the polytheist majority."[40]

---

The ancient Jewish philosopher Philo gives the number of Jewish inhabitants in Egypt as one million, one-eighth of the population. Alexandria was by far the most important of the Egyptian Jewish communities. The Jews in the Egyptian diaspora were on a par with their Ptolemaic counterparts and close ties existed for them with Jerusalem. As in other Hellenistic diasporas, the Egyptian diaspora was one of choice not of imposition.[36]

The 13th-century author Bar Hebraeus gave a figure of 6,944,000 Jews in the Roman world. Salo Wittmayer Baron considered the figure convincing.[40] The figure of seven million within and one million outside the Roman world in the mid-first century became widely accepted, including by Louis Feldman. However, contemporary scholars now accept that Bar Hebraeus based his figure on a census of total Roman citizens and thus, included non-Jews. The figure of 6,944,000 being recorded in Eusebius' Chronicon.[41]: 90, 94, 104–05 [42] Louis Feldman, previously an active supporter of the figure, now states that he and Baron were mistaken.[43]: 185  Philo gives a figure of one million Jews living in Egypt. John R. Bartlett rejects Baron's figures entirely, arguing that we have no clue as to the size of the Jewish demographic in the ancient world.[41]: 97–103  The Romans did not distinguish between Jews inside and outside of the Land of Israel/Judaea. They collected an annual temple tax from Jews both in and outside of Israel. The revolts in and suppression of diaspora communities in Egypt, Libya and Crete in 115–117 CE had a severe impact on the Jewish diaspora.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Elijah, it's no use arguing with this guy. There have been half a dozen threads showing the genomics of ancient Israelites from several sites, with more sites to come. NONE of them show any affinities with Africans or African Americans but they DO show affinities with modern Levant populations as well as Levantine derived populations like Sephardim and Ashkenazim.

Whenever the evidence is presented to Tazarah he is like this:


 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
There is no way at the present time to determine anyone is of descent from the ancient Israelites.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
No reliable data exist on the population of Palestine in the pre-Muslim period, either in absolute terms or in terms of shares of total population...

---

So then why is it that certain individuals try to shove "Israelite DNA" down our throats, and claim they can prove who is or isn't a Jew when this is not the case?

Why do pseudo individuals on this site act as though they have shared exhaustive and comprehensive research on Israelite DNA, when they have not? And then when then they are asked to post it, they refuse (because they know it does not exist).



I mean, I literally referenced one of the most notable jewish organizations in the world and even they say that genetic testing cannot determine who is a Jew.

At least you are now being honest about this "Israelite DNA" nonsense.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Future readers:

This article titled "In First, Archaeologists Extract DNA of Ancient Israelites" came out at the end of 2023.

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2023-10-09/ty-article/in-first-archaeologists-extract-dna-of-ancient-israelites/0000018b-138a-d2fc-a59f-d39b21fd0000

The title of the article lets us know this is the first time archaeologists have extracted the DNA of what they believe to be "ancient Israelites", and as I've stated, the article was published at the end of 2023.

The male sample had a J2 haplogroup and is asserted to be a Hebrew/Israelite based solely on the fact that some "Hebrew pottery" was found buried with it (lol...) but notice how the article refers to the J2 haplogroup results as "partial" -- meaning incomplete, existing only in part, or biased.

quote:

---

"The highlight of the very partial results is that the Y chromosome in the man belongs to the J2 haplogroup,...

---

quote:

---

"Much more data and research are needed to understand how significative these results are, whether they truly represent the ancestry of the region’s population at the time – and what they mean for our understanding of the broader story of the emergence of ancient Israel."

---

quote:

---

As for the mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited from the maternal side, the two individuals at Kiryat Yearim displayed two different haplogroups. One, T1a, is a very ancient ancestral haplogroup, with similar counterparts already found in individuals living in Jordan some 10,000 years ago and in southeastern Europe around 7,000 years ago, says Shaus. In later samples it is found in Iran and in those Canaanites sampled in Israel, as well as all the way to the Baltic and Ural Mountains.

This suggests that this haplogroup’s initial source may have been somewhere in Neolithic Anatolia or the Levant, and slowly spread with early farming, Shaus says.

The second mitochondrial haplogroup, called H87, hasn’t been previously detected in ancient DNA samples but is found in modern-day Basques, Tunisian Arabs, and Iraqis.

---

One might argue the lineage patrilineal at the time but it is not clear how strictly they followed that at the time.
Regardless if an Israelite site was firmly established with Hebrew writing and DNA tests results were recorded it could be assumed that some of the females were Israelites and at some future time they might find a particular mtdna haplogroup predominant or more more than one
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
There were plenty of races of people living in Israel during that time period. The argument is not that "XYZ haplogroup wasn't there", it's: "is XYZ haplogroup an identifier of the Israelites?" And if so, how? Provide your comprehensive and exhaustive research to prove it is the case.

I'm not saying this to you, but to people like Deflectehuti the pseudo who has been claiming this for years without any comprehensive and exhaustive research into 100% verifiable ancient Israelite DNA.

No such research exists, and if it did then he would have already posted it instead of refusing to do so. All of his claims on this topic are speculation and opinion -- he's just a random wannabe internet scientist.

One of the most notable jewish organizations in the world says that genetic testing cannot determine who is a Jew (djehuti conveniently ignored this, while still continuing to make additional posts in the thread addressing me), and the article I just posted pretty much says that scientists have no idea what the DNA of the ancient Israelites looked like.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Yes, at the present time there is no way, genetics or otherwise to determine anyone is of descent from the ancient Israelites.

This DNA does not answer the thread topic question
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
I found it! Here's a PCA graph from Hammer et al. 2000



^ Note that the Lemba who carry hg J are a far outlier from other Sub-Saharans and are pulled close to the Jewish and Arab cluster, while the Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) who lack hg J do not and stay clustered with other Ethiopians.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Future readers:

Take note of now not a single one of the graphs/images that djehuti posts says anything about comprehensive and exhaustive research into *ancient Israelite DNA*.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Yes, at the present time there is no way, genetics or otherwise to determine anyone is of descent from the ancient Israelites.

---

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ We've gone over the studies of ancient Israelites in other threads. They predominantly carried hg J. These studies on modern populations show continuity.

For examples...

From Waldman et al. (2022)

Principal Component Analysis of Askhenazi Jews and contemporary and medieval samples from the Middle East and Europe. Individuals buried at the medieval Jewish cemetery at Erfurt, Germany, form two distinct genetic clusters: one group pulls toward modern Lebanese and the other group pulls toward modern north Italians and Greeks. Ashkenazi Jews, like some Erfurt individuals, are positioned in between these two clusters. This again reflects the fact that the Semitic ancestors (mostly males) of Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews interbred with natives in southern Europe (mostly females) when they left their Levant homeland — an admixture process that was apparently still in its early stages as recently as the Middle Ages. This is also supported by linguistic analysis, which indicates that the Yiddish tongue that many Ashkenazi Jews now speak is a creole of their Levantine ancestors’ original Semitic Hebrew language and the German language of their European host community (much like how Jamaican patois is a creole of the native Niger-Congo languages of the West African ancestors of Jamaicans and the English language of their European host community). The fact that the Indo-European contact language here is a Germanic idiom spoken in west-central Europe rather than Italian or Greek conveys that the Levantine forebears of Ashkenazi Jews would still have spoken their native Hebrew language as they spread from southern Europe to other parts of the continent.


From Atzmon et al. (2010)

STRUCTURE and phylogenetic analysis of Jewish populations. Ashkenazi Jews cluster with Mizrahi Jews from Syria and other Jewish groups. These Jewish populations carry both Levantine/Arabian (pink component) and European admixture elements (blue component). Ashkenazi individuals trace just over half of their ancestry to the Levantine/Arabian component (~60%), intermediate between Palestinians and southern European populations. This is consistent with the observation that the Semitic male ancestors of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews interbred with native women in southern Europe.



(all the above from Perahu's Land of Punt site)

We have historical records showing Ashkenazi descending from Jews (mostly males) who arrived in Europe and they preserved Jewish traditions. Where is the same for Africans (other than the Lemba) or African Americans??
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Clearly, djehuti has not been keeping up with the points being made in this thread (or is intentionally ignoring them).

1) The first time archaeologists claim to have extracted actual "ancient Israelite DNA" was in an article published at the end of 2023. The article said the J haplogroup result was "very partial" and the article concluded by stating that it's not possible to confirm whether or not the J haplogroup result is an accurate representation of the Israelite population -- in other words, they basically said there is no available evidence that shows the DNA of the actual ancient Israelites.

2) Chabad, one of the world's most notable jewish organizations, has stated that genetic testing cannot prove or determine whether someone is a Jew.

3) There has been no comprehensive or exhaustive research into ancient Israelite DNA nor can anyone produce any evidence that says otherwise, as has been made clear in this thread. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or severely mistaken.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
@Elijah The Tishbite, it's all pretty interesting,
some history going back over 130 years :


William Christian
(1856-1928)

One of the first to popularize the idea that African Americans were the descendants of the ancient Israelites was a pastor from Wrightsville, Arkansas,
named William Christian (along with William S. Crowdy) who was born into slavery in Mississippi.
The Churches of the Living God, heirs to the movement founded in 1889 by William Christian,
had 2,676 members in 1906 and 17,402 in 1926
He rejected racial prejudice and promoted racial integration within the church.

Later, the second phase of Hebrew Israelitism began roughly in the 1910s, the era of the Great Migration – the mass movement of Black people away from the Jim Crow South into the west and into the industrial centers of the Midwest.

____________________________________________

REV. WILLIAM CHRISTIAN

POOR PILGRIM’S WORK, IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST
1896

full book:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SyOpOq_NA2rWj5R9TJ_tOKCID1cFPGcP/view?pli=1





.

.

William Christian (1856-1928)
- Church of the Living god

quote:

---

"We believe the Bible from Genesis to Malachi to be a Jewish guide foreshadowing the coming of Christ "

---

https://www.cotlgcwfftemple44.com/about/
___________


One of the first to popularize the idea that African Americans were the descendants of the ancient Israelites was a pastor from Wrightsville, Arkansas, named William Christian, who was born into slavery in Mississippi in 1856. Later in life he recounted how he had served as a Baptist minister for thirteen years, until 1888, before “the Lord, through some unknown power, revealed to me the startling fact that we were preaching the doctrine of men and not of Christ.’4 Christian began a period of intense spiritual interrogation, turning to the scriptures as his guide. He advocated the teachings of Alexander Campbell, an English minister who rejected denominationalism and insisted that the faithful should only follow the teachings of Christ.25 Campbell, like Bishop Christian, advocated a “primitive” form of Christianity that borrowed much from the Hebrew Bible

Though we know that Bishops Crowdy and his contemporary William Christian were both dedicated Freemasons, who brought much of their fraternal order into their Black Israelite churches, I have found no “smoking gun” linking Black Jews like Crowdy or Christian to the Israelite discourses that circulated widely in Freemasonry and AngloIsraelism. However, there is much circumstantial evidence, including the fact that Christian called his teachings “Free Mason religion,” suggesting that Crowdy and Christian had access to Masonic legends of the ancient Israelites. Older Masonic-Israelite ideas and African American traditions of Biblical exegesis probably both played a part in the formation of their own identification as Black Israelites.



William Saunders Crowdy’s innovation was one of intensity, not of kind. It is unclear who was first to preach that the ancient Israelites were Black, while adopting Old Testament rituals, Bishop Christian or Bishop Crowdy, who began preaching in Guthrie, Oklahoma, five years after Bishop Christian's 1888 revelation. The two advocated very similar doctrines and rituals, although neither set down his theology in writing until much later. It is quite likely that both men’s teachings did not arrive full-blown in their initial revelations but developed in the tumultuous decade of the 1890s. Bishop Christian certainly taught that the ancient Hebrews were Black, and most likely taught that contemporary African
Americans were their descendants, but Crowdy began to systematically adopt the rituals of the Hebrew Bible, beginning with the seventh-day Sabbath and continuing with the Passover and the other festivals of the Hebrew calendar. Through their joint efforts, Bishops Christian and Crowdy seeded the African American religious landscape with the conviction that the ancient Israelites were Black, and attracted thousands of African American believers who had adopted some of the rites of the Hebrew Bible to go along with the conviction that the Hebrew and Christian Bibles were describing their own ancestors. In most cases, the Judaic groups that arose in northern cities before and after the First World War were lineal descendents of Bishop Crowdy’s Church of God and Saints of Christ

Chosen people : the rise of American Black Israelite religions
by Dorman, Jacob S., 1974-


William Saunders Crowdy
(1847 – 1908)

William Saunders Crowdy was an American soldier, preacher, entrepreneur, and pastor. He was also one of the earliest known Black Hebrew Israelites in the United States...

He claimed to have had several visions in which he was told "that Black people were descendants of the twelve lost tribes of Israel." He proceeded to create the Church of God and Saints of Christ and is regarded as a founder of the Black Hebrew Israelite movement.


Crowdy settled in Guthrie, Oklahoma after his retirement from the railroad. He became a deacon in the local Baptist Church and an active member of the Prince Hall branch of Freemasons.[8]


He started preaching in Guthrie, and then set up Tabernacles in Emporia and Lawrence, Kansas in 1896. In these early days he was arrested 22 times. After setting up another Tabernacle in Topeka, he spread his creed in Sedalia, Missouri, Chicago, and several cities in New York, establishing an Elder-in-Charge in each city before moving to the next.

In 1903, he bought 40 acres (160,000 m2) of land in Suffolk, Virginia, calling it "Canaan Land". More land was subsequently purchased by Bishop William H. Plummer and this is now the international headquarters of the denomination. In 1905 he sent missionaries to South Africa and by 1906 he declared Chief Joseph W. Crowdy, Bishop William H. Plummer, and Elder Calvin S. Skinner as future leaders of his congregation.[citation needed]

Shais Rishon, a Black Orthodox Jewish writer and activist, has claimed that Crowdy was "A southern baptist who never belonged nor converted to any branch of Judaism."[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Saunders_Crowdy

After establishing congregations in three cities in the state of Kansas (Lawrence, Emporia, and Topeka) and ordaining ministers to be in charge, the Prophet moved on to Sedalia, Missouri; Chicago, Illinois; and several cities in New York establishing Tabernacles and ordaining an Elder-in-Charge in each city before moving from one location to another.

In May, 1899, Prophet William S. Crowdy moved to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It was in this city that he took up permanent residence for about four years, naming it as the organization’s headquarters. By 1901, more that 1,300 members had joined the Philadelphia congregation. Several kinds of businesses were established in that same city, including a general store, barber shop, restaurant, and printing plant. While in Philadelphia, the Prophet convened the first Passovers of our Congregation to be held in the East on April 14-21, 1901 (the first Passover was held in Lawrence, KS in April, 1899). Thousands of saints came from many cities throughout the country to attend the services.

In the year 1905, Prophet William S. Crowdy sent an ambassador to South Africa, telling him which tribes would receive the true gospel. As a result, tabernacles now exist in Malawi, Swaziland, Zimbabwe, and South Africa. Shortly after 1905, branches were established in Cuba, and in the West Indies and its tributaries.

https://www.cogasoc.org/leaders/prophet-william-s-crowdy/#:~:text=In%20the%20year%201905%2C%20Prophet,West%20Indies%20and%20its%20tributaries.

(church website)

__________________________________

In September 1906, members of the Washington church held their annual parade dressed in black tricorns and armed with swords. 24 That year, the church had 48 congregations and 1,823 members, most of them African-American, in a dozen states.25

William S. Crowdy died in 1908 without ever succeeding in creating the biracial church he had called for and which he had begun to form in Kansas. The political and social context of the East Coast, where racial discrimination was much more important, undoubtedly explains this doctrinaire shift from religious universalism to a racialized conception of election in religion. And it is precisely this idea that most distinguishes him from the African-American theologies of the nineteenth century and that profoundly marked the numerous communities of Black Hebrews that developed after the First World War in the large metropolises of the East Coast of the United States.

In September 1906, members of the Washington church held their annual parade dressed in black tricorns and armed with swords. 24 That year, the church had 48 congregations and 1,823 members, most of them African-American, in a dozen states.

William S. Crowdy died in 1908 without ever succeeding in creating the biracial church he had called for and which he had begun to form in Kansas. The political and social context of the East Coast, where racial discrimination was much more important, undoubtedly explains this doctrinaire shift from religious universalism to a racialized conception of election in religion. And it is precisely this idea that most distinguishes him from the African-American theologies of the nineteenth century and that profoundly marked the numerous communities of Black Hebrews that developed after the First World War in the large metropolises of the East Coast of the United States.
https://relrace.hypotheses.org/5970


_________________________



Frank Cherry
(c. 1875–1963)
("FS Cherry", Frank S. Cherry)

Frank S. Cherry in 1866 (although the date is unverified) led a congregation in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Later in 1912 (or 1915) Philadelphia, he established the Church of God in Pillar of Truth for All Nations (similar but longer name to William Christian's Church of the Living God. He taught himself rudimentary Hebrew and Yiddish.
According to Cherry, Jesus, Adam and Eve were Black, but White Jews deceitfully altered their blackness for nefarious purposes. Cherry stated that White Jews were interlopers and frauds, and that God hates White Jews because they are inherently evil and rejected Jesus(using Revelation 3:9 as his proof text; “Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie…”).

Cherry said that he received a divine vision that not all Blacks are Jews, but that all true Jews are Blacks of the lineage of Jacob.

According to Cherry, the first white man was Gehazi* (2 Kings 5:27) whose color changed to white when he was cursed. At other times Cherry argued that he and his followers “were part of the original Israelite tribes chased from Babylonia (and, they claim, into Central and Western Africa where they were later sold into slavery) by the Romans in 70 CE” (Janice W. Fernheimer, ‘Stepping Into Zion: Hatzaad Harishon, Black Jews, and the Remaking of Jewish Identity;’ University of Alabama Press, 2014; page 10).

Cherry taught that the earth is square, surrounded by three layers of heaven. He prophesied that Jesus would return in the year 2000, raising all the saints who kept the Ten Commandments and obeyed Cherry’s teachings (Eugene V. Gallagher; ‘Introduction to New and Alternative Religions in America; Greenwood Publishing Group, 2019). He accepted the Talmud as authoritative, forbade the eating of pork, the observance of Christian holidays, the use of pianos and speaking in tongues. Services began and ended with a prayer facing East toward Jerusalem. Meetings were held Sunday, Wednesday and Friday evenings, and all day Saturdays. Men wore skullcaps and women wore blue and white capes with tassels (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas, Tudor Parfitt, 2013).

Male members dressed in yarmulkes,
and women wore blue and white capes; in addition to their specific style of dress, all members wore a Star of David. The Black Jews (as Cherry followers were called) also had strong Christian elements within their tradition. They
observed baptism and substituted Communion for Passover. Although they were known to avoid celebrating Christmas or Easter, Jesus nevertheless played a central role in their doctrines (Fauset 2002: 39). They believed in Jesus while rejecting his whiteness; they knew Jesus as black. It is difficult to discern
whether they saw him as the Messiah.
Cherry’s followers believed that Jesus did
not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. They also believed that slavery and the deliverance of the black man would follow
at the end of the “Age of the Gentiles” when Jesus returns to usher in the millennium (Landing 2002: 342).
____

*Gehazi

Gehazi, Geichazi, or Giezi (Douay-Rheims) (Hebrew: גֵּיחֲזִי‎; Gēḥăzī; "valley of vision"), is a figure found in the Books of Kings in the Hebrew Bible.

A servant of the prophet Elisha, Gehazi enjoyed a position of power but was ultimately corrupt, misusing his authority to cheat Naaman the Syrian, a general afflicted with leprosy. As punishment, Elisha cursed Gehazi, transferring Naaman's leprosy to him and his descendants forever.

In Rabbinic literature, Gehazi is identified as one of the four commoners who forfeited his share in the afterlife because of his wickedness. He is the subject of a poem by Rudyard Kipling.
_______________________________
 

---

Posted by SlimJim (Member # 23217) on :
 
How does this theory work? So African Americans are the real Jews, what about West Africans, are they also Jews? Seeing as African Americans were taken from West Africa that should be the case, or did the slavers and enemy tribes just happen to only capture Jew descended West Africans?

Anyway we have Iron age Levantine DNA so we know what the ancient Jews were like autosomally, can anyone successfully model West Africans or African Americans using IA Levantines?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Literally all of the questions you just asked have already been answered in this thread

Also, "Black Hebrew Israelites" do not believe that only "African Americans" are the real Jews
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ You have failed to show any connection let alone continuity between your group and ancient Israelites as you have too many times.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

@Elijah The Tishbite, it's all pretty interesting,
some history going back over 130 years :


William Christian
(1856-1928)

One of the first to popularize the idea that African Americans were the descendants of the ancient Israelites was a pastor from Wrightsville, Arkansas,
named William Christian (along with William S. Crowdy) who was born into slavery in Mississippi.
The Churches of the Living God, heirs to the movement founded in 1889 by William Christian,
had 2,676 members in 1906 and 17,402 in 1926
He rejected racial prejudice and promoted racial integration within the church.

Later, the second phase of Hebrew Israelitism began roughly in the 1910s, the era of the Great Migration – the mass movement of Black people away from the Jim Crow South into the west and into the industrial centers of the Midwest.

____________________________________________

REV. WILLIAM CHRISTIAN

POOR PILGRIM’S WORK, IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST
1896

full book:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SyOpOq_NA2rWj5R9TJ_tOKCID1cFPGcP/view?pli=1

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SlimJim:
did the slavers and enemy tribes just happen to only capture Jew descended West Africans?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
And a paper published by Cambridge University records the fact that black Jews in west africa were more likely to be captured and sold into the transatlantic slave trade.



"Blacks Jews: the religious challenge or politics versus religion" by Ulysses Santamaria, page 235 (1987) European Journal of Sociology, Cambridge University Press

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents

---

This is another source from the 1700s that I found a while back. The writer says the negroes of Whydah/Judah (west africa) were the best and most expensive negroes in all of africa, and that they were Judaic.

It was published in 1809 but if you look up the author (Jean Baptiste Ladvocat), he was born in 1709 and died in 1765. So the information must have been written sometime in between.




I could literally fill this entire thread full of sources demonstrating that the ancestors of "african americans" and other blacks of the diaspora were known to be Jews prior to slavery. But that won't change the mind of those who only wish to pretend the evidence does not exist.

I honestly feel that most of us "black hebrew Israelites" have reached a point where we no longer care what antagonists have to say, due to the fact that most of them are acting in bad faith, have not even researched the topic and also because of how much evidence there is to support what we say.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
That the poster above features the Masonic Eye of Providence is very telling. The British Hebrew Israelites also had Masonic ties, as do the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. I hope people are seeing a pattern.

---

(although not mentioned elsewhere in the book)


Prior to the American Revolutionary War, Prince Hall and fourteen other free black men petitioned for admission to the white Boston St. John's Lodge. They were declined.: 74  The Masonic fraternity was attractive to some free blacks such as Prince Hall because freemasonry was founded upon ideals of liberty, equality and peace.

Prince Hall Freemasonry is a branch of North American Freemasonry created for African Americans founded by Prince Hall on September 29, 1784. Prince Hall Freemasonry is the oldest and largest (300,000+ initiated members) predominantly African-American fraternity in the United States.

quote:

---

Chosen people : the rise of American Black Israelite religions
2013
by Dorman, Jacob S.


p 74

African Americans created their own parallel Masonic world, which claimed the loyalty of all of the founders of Black Israelite faiths, from Bishops Christian and Crowdy to Rabbis Ford and Matthew. The African American Masonic establishment traces its origins to Prince Hall, a Barbadian soldier who was inducted into a Masonic lodge by a British military regiment in 1775, and then founded the tradition of African American Freemasonry that has come to be named for him.”* Freemasonry in the Black Atlantic may be, in historian John Thornton's terms, a “co-revelation,” a point of overlap between European and African customs, which fills a deep cultural niche established by the long history of African secret societies that maintained traditions, cosmologies, and esoteric knowledge.”? Surely, secret societies have played an important role in the development of Afro-Caribbean religions such as Vodou and Santeria.”* Yet Black Masons of the nineteenth century were much more inclined to ascribe the origins of their tradition not to West Africa but to the fertile crescent of the Near East.”

p 176

“The Commandment Keepers Royal Order of Ethiopian Hebrews.” In 1936, a newspaper reported that “In connection with the Commandment Keepers, there is the Royal Order of Ethiopian Hebrew Sons and Daughters of Culture, one of the oldest branches of the Masonic order.” Not surprisingly, African American Prince Hall Masons did not treat the Royal Order with the same respect. Harry A. Williamson, the preeminent Prince Hall historian, lists Matthew’s synagogue in his index of “bogus” Masonic organizations.**

Page 77

Accordingly, Masonic beliefs are a prominent part of the Anglo-Israelite literature of the nineteenth century. Books like The Irish Prince and the Hebrew Prophet: A Masonic Tale of the Captive Jews and the Ark of the Covenant (1896) melded Anglo-Israelism and Freemasonry to show that the Anglo-Saxons were the true Israelites, and that the British Empire was the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Perhaps the best example of this overlap between Anglo-Israelites and the larger community of Freemasons is William Carpenter's 1874 treatise, The Israelites Found in the Anglo-Saxons.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] On the first page of this thread I referenced a paper from Cambridge University that said negroes in West Africa who were Jews were more likely to be captured, persecuted and sold into the transatlantic slave trade, compared to other negroes who were not Jews.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
@Elijah The Tishbite, it's all pretty interesting,
some history going back over 130 years :


William Christian
(1856-1928)

One of the first to popularize the idea that African Americans were the descendants of the ancient Israelites was a pastor from Wrightsville, Arkansas,
named William Christian (along with William S. Crowdy) who was born into slavery in Mississippi.
The Churches of the Living God, heirs to the movement founded in 1889 by William Christian,
had 2,676 members in 1906 and 17,402 in 1926
He rejected racial prejudice and promoted racial integration within the church.

Later, the second phase of Hebrew Israelitism began roughly in the 1910s, the era of the Great Migration – the mass movement of Black people away from the Jim Crow South into the west and into the industrial centers of the Midwest.

____________________________________________

REV. WILLIAM CHRISTIAN

POOR PILGRIM’S WORK, IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST
1896

full book:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SyOpOq_NA2rWj5R9TJ_tOKCID1cFPGcP/view?pli=1





.

.

William Christian (1856-1928)
- Church of the Living god

quote:

---

"We believe the Bible from Genesis to Malachi to be a Jewish guide foreshadowing the coming of Christ "

---

https://www.cotlgcwfftemple44.com/about/
___________


One of the first to popularize the idea that African Americans were the descendants of the ancient Israelites was a pastor from Wrightsville, Arkansas, named William Christian, who was born into slavery in Mississippi in 1856. Later in life he recounted how he had served as a Baptist minister for thirteen years, until 1888, before “the Lord, through some unknown power, revealed to me the startling fact that we were preaching the doctrine of men and not of Christ.’4 Christian began a period of intense spiritual interrogation, turning to the scriptures as his guide. He advocated the teachings of Alexander Campbell, an English minister who rejected denominationalism and insisted that the faithful should only follow the teachings of Christ.25 Campbell, like Bishop Christian, advocated a “primitive” form of Christianity that borrowed much from the Hebrew Bible

Though we know that Bishops Crowdy and his contemporary William Christian were both dedicated Freemasons, who brought much of their fraternal order into their Black Israelite churches, I have found no “smoking gun” linking Black Jews like Crowdy or Christian to the Israelite discourses that circulated widely in Freemasonry and AngloIsraelism. However, there is much circumstantial evidence, including the fact that Christian called his teachings “Free Mason religion,” suggesting that Crowdy and Christian had access to Masonic legends of the ancient Israelites. Older Masonic-Israelite ideas and African American traditions of Biblical exegesis probably both played a part in the formation of their own identification as Black Israelites.



William Saunders Crowdy’s innovation was one of intensity, not of kind. It is unclear who was first to preach that the ancient Israelites were Black, while adopting Old Testament rituals, Bishop Christian or Bishop Crowdy, who began preaching in Guthrie, Oklahoma, five years after Bishop Christian's 1888 revelation. The two advocated very similar doctrines and rituals, although neither set down his theology in writing until much later. It is quite likely that both men’s teachings did not arrive full-blown in their initial revelations but developed in the tumultuous decade of the 1890s. Bishop Christian certainly taught that the ancient Hebrews were Black, and most likely taught that contemporary African
Americans were their descendants, but Crowdy began to systematically adopt the rituals of the Hebrew Bible, beginning with the seventh-day Sabbath and continuing with the Passover and the other festivals of the Hebrew calendar. Through their joint efforts, Bishops Christian and Crowdy seeded the African American religious landscape with the conviction that the ancient Israelites were Black, and attracted thousands of African American believers who had adopted some of the rites of the Hebrew Bible to go along with the conviction that the Hebrew and Christian Bibles were describing their own ancestors. In most cases, the Judaic groups that arose in northern cities before and after the First World War were lineal descendents of Bishop Crowdy’s Church of God and Saints of Christ

Chosen people : the rise of American Black Israelite religions
by Dorman, Jacob S., 1974-


William Saunders Crowdy
(1847 – 1908)

William Saunders Crowdy was an American soldier, preacher, entrepreneur, and pastor. He was also one of the earliest known Black Hebrew Israelites in the United States...

He claimed to have had several visions in which he was told "that Black people were descendants of the twelve lost tribes of Israel." He proceeded to create the Church of God and Saints of Christ and is regarded as a founder of the Black Hebrew Israelite movement.


Crowdy settled in Guthrie, Oklahoma after his retirement from the railroad. He became a deacon in the local Baptist Church and an active member of the Prince Hall branch of Freemasons.[8]


He started preaching in Guthrie, and then set up Tabernacles in Emporia and Lawrence, Kansas in 1896. In these early days he was arrested 22 times. After setting up another Tabernacle in Topeka, he spread his creed in Sedalia, Missouri, Chicago, and several cities in New York, establishing an Elder-in-Charge in each city before moving to the next.

In 1903, he bought 40 acres (160,000 m2) of land in Suffolk, Virginia, calling it "Canaan Land". More land was subsequently purchased by Bishop William H. Plummer and this is now the international headquarters of the denomination. In 1905 he sent missionaries to South Africa and by 1906 he declared Chief Joseph W. Crowdy, Bishop William H. Plummer, and Elder Calvin S. Skinner as future leaders of his congregation.[citation needed]

Shais Rishon, a Black Orthodox Jewish writer and activist, has claimed that Crowdy was "A southern baptist who never belonged nor converted to any branch of Judaism."[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Saunders_Crowdy

After establishing congregations in three cities in the state of Kansas (Lawrence, Emporia, and Topeka) and ordaining ministers to be in charge, the Prophet moved on to Sedalia, Missouri; Chicago, Illinois; and several cities in New York establishing Tabernacles and ordaining an Elder-in-Charge in each city before moving from one location to another.

In May, 1899, Prophet William S. Crowdy moved to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It was in this city that he took up permanent residence for about four years, naming it as the organization’s headquarters. By 1901, more that 1,300 members had joined the Philadelphia congregation. Several kinds of businesses were established in that same city, including a general store, barber shop, restaurant, and printing plant. While in Philadelphia, the Prophet convened the first Passovers of our Congregation to be held in the East on April 14-21, 1901 (the first Passover was held in Lawrence, KS in April, 1899). Thousands of saints came from many cities throughout the country to attend the services.

In the year 1905, Prophet William S. Crowdy sent an ambassador to South Africa, telling him which tribes would receive the true gospel. As a result, tabernacles now exist in Malawi, Swaziland, Zimbabwe, and South Africa. Shortly after 1905, branches were established in Cuba, and in the West Indies and its tributaries.

https://www.cogasoc.org/leaders/prophet-william-s-crowdy/#:~:text=In%20the%20year%201905%2C%20Prophet,West%20Indies%20and%20its%20tributaries.

(church website)

__________________________________

In September 1906, members of the Washington church held their annual parade dressed in black tricorns and armed with swords. 24 That year, the church had 48 congregations and 1,823 members, most of them African-American, in a dozen states.25

William S. Crowdy died in 1908 without ever succeeding in creating the biracial church he had called for and which he had begun to form in Kansas. The political and social context of the East Coast, where racial discrimination was much more important, undoubtedly explains this doctrinaire shift from religious universalism to a racialized conception of election in religion. And it is precisely this idea that most distinguishes him from the African-American theologies of the nineteenth century and that profoundly marked the numerous communities of Black Hebrews that developed after the First World War in the large metropolises of the East Coast of the United States.

In September 1906, members of the Washington church held their annual parade dressed in black tricorns and armed with swords. 24 That year, the church had 48 congregations and 1,823 members, most of them African-American, in a dozen states.

William S. Crowdy died in 1908 without ever succeeding in creating the biracial church he had called for and which he had begun to form in Kansas. The political and social context of the East Coast, where racial discrimination was much more important, undoubtedly explains this doctrinaire shift from religious universalism to a racialized conception of election in religion. And it is precisely this idea that most distinguishes him from the African-American theologies of the nineteenth century and that profoundly marked the numerous communities of Black Hebrews that developed after the First World War in the large metropolises of the East Coast of the United States.
https://relrace.hypotheses.org/5970


_________________________



Frank Cherry
(c. 1875–1963)
("FS Cherry", Frank S. Cherry)

Frank S. Cherry in 1866 (although the date is unverified) led a congregation in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Later in 1912 (or 1915) Philadelphia, he established the Church of God in Pillar of Truth for All Nations (similar but longer name to William Christian's Church of the Living God. He taught himself rudimentary Hebrew and Yiddish.
According to Cherry, Jesus, Adam and Eve were Black, but White Jews deceitfully altered their blackness for nefarious purposes. Cherry stated that White Jews were interlopers and frauds, and that God hates White Jews because they are inherently evil and rejected Jesus(using Revelation 3:9 as his proof text; “Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie…”).

Cherry said that he received a divine vision that not all Blacks are Jews, but that all true Jews are Blacks of the lineage of Jacob.

According to Cherry, the first white man was Gehazi* (2 Kings 5:27) whose color changed to white when he was cursed. At other times Cherry argued that he and his followers “were part of the original Israelite tribes chased from Babylonia (and, they claim, into Central and Western Africa where they were later sold into slavery) by the Romans in 70 CE” (Janice W. Fernheimer, ‘Stepping Into Zion: Hatzaad Harishon, Black Jews, and the Remaking of Jewish Identity;’ University of Alabama Press, 2014; page 10).

Cherry taught that the earth is square, surrounded by three layers of heaven. He prophesied that Jesus would return in the year 2000, raising all the saints who kept the Ten Commandments and obeyed Cherry’s teachings (Eugene V. Gallagher; ‘Introduction to New and Alternative Religions in America; Greenwood Publishing Group, 2019). He accepted the Talmud as authoritative, forbade the eating of pork, the observance of Christian holidays, the use of pianos and speaking in tongues. Services began and ended with a prayer facing East toward Jerusalem. Meetings were held Sunday, Wednesday and Friday evenings, and all day Saturdays. Men wore skullcaps and women wore blue and white capes with tassels (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas, Tudor Parfitt, 2013).

Male members dressed in yarmulkes,
and women wore blue and white capes; in addition to their specific style of dress, all members wore a Star of David. The Black Jews (as Cherry followers were called) also had strong Christian elements within their tradition. They
observed baptism and substituted Communion for Passover. Although they were known to avoid celebrating Christmas or Easter, Jesus nevertheless played a central role in their doctrines (Fauset 2002: 39). They believed in Jesus while rejecting his whiteness; they knew Jesus as black. It is difficult to discern
whether they saw him as the Messiah.
Cherry’s followers believed that Jesus did
not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. They also believed that slavery and the deliverance of the black man would follow
at the end of the “Age of the Gentiles” when Jesus returns to usher in the millennium (Landing 2002: 342).
____

*Gehazi

Gehazi, Geichazi, or Giezi (Douay-Rheims) (Hebrew: גֵּיחֲזִי‎; Gēḥăzī; "valley of vision"), is a figure found in the Books of Kings in the Hebrew Bible.

A servant of the prophet Elisha, Gehazi enjoyed a position of power but was ultimately corrupt, misusing his authority to cheat Naaman the Syrian, a general afflicted with leprosy. As punishment, Elisha cursed Gehazi, transferring Naaman's leprosy to him and his descendants forever.

In Rabbinic literature, Gehazi is identified as one of the four commoners who forfeited his share in the afterlife because of his wickedness. He is the subject of a poem by Rudyard Kipling.
_______________________________

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] On the first page of this thread I referenced a paper from Cambridge University that said negroes in West Africa who were Jews were more likely to be captured, persecuted and sold into the transatlantic slave trade, compared to other negroes who were not Jews.

---

If I wanted to be a clover farmer I might prefer
the 4 leaf but I would only be able to expect that 1 in 10,000.
So preference does not equal more or only

If there were an estimated 12.5 million slaves taken in the trans Atlantic slave trade even if the Israelite ones were preferred there would not be enough of them to be the only ones taken and still a minority of all slaves taken

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
On the first page of this thread I referenced a paper from Cambridge University that said negroes in West Africa who were Jews were more likely to be captured, persecuted and sold into the transatlantic slave trade, compared to other negroes who were not Jews.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazarah:
[qb] And a paper published by Cambridge University records the fact that black Jews in west africa were more likely to be captured and sold into the transatlantic slave trade.



"Blacks Jews: the religious challenge or politics versus religion" by Ulysses Santamaria, page 235 (1987) European Journal of Sociology, Cambridge University Press

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents

---

Below, excerpt of same article with additional text
The second paragraph has the Allan Godbey Lost Tribes book quote
but I've noticed it is worded slightly differently
then in the below edition of Godbey's book (the next yellowed book pages) at the top the very similar but not exactly the same quote





 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Yes, in the primary source Godbey refers to the black/negro Jews as "Judaized" but offers no evidence to support that opinion -- which is likely why the Cambridge source did not use the word "Judaized". That is Godbey's opinion, and no attempt was even made by Godbey to support that idea.

The only verifiable fact that Godbey wrote about these black/negro Jews is that they were Jews.

Furthermore, on the pages leading up to page 246 (page 246 is where he refers to them as "Judaized"), Godbey writes that 400 families of these black/negro Jews in west africa were claiming Semitic ancestry. Converts would not claim such things.





There are also other firsthand/eyewitness sources that say black Jews in west africa claim to have been passing down Judaic customs because they were passed down from their forefathers. Again, not something that converts would say.




"The Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle: A Journal of Papers on Subjects Connected with Maritime Affairs" page 581 (1870) Simpkin, Marshall, and Company

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Nautical_Magazine_and_Naval_Chronicl/bk5WAAAAcAAJ

Lastly, French sources from as early as 1768 say that modern jewish people had not even been to west africa, so the idea that jewish people were in west africa converting "black africans" to judaism is utter nonsense.


 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Also, if black Jews were recorded as being the "best and most expensive slaves" and sources imply that they were specifically targeted for slavery, it's not illogical to come to the conclusion that they would have made up the majority, especially when the Biblical prophecies come into play about the Israelites being taken into slavery on ships.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Yes, in the primary source Godbey refers to the black/negro Jews as "Judaized" but offers no evidence to support that opinion -- which is likely why the Cambridge source did not use the word "Judaized". That is Godbey's opinion, and no attempt was even made by Godbey to support that idea.

The only verifiable fact that Godbey wrote about these black/negro Jews is that they were Jews.

---

quote:

---

The Lost Tribes A Myth
Suggestions Towards Rewriting Hebrew History
by Allen Howard Godbey
1930
246-248

Professor of Old Testament Duke University, 1930
THE LOST TRIBES A MYTH

These facts have a peculiar significance when the presence of Judaism among American negroes is to be considered. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were brought to America from this Western Africa during the days of the traffic, beginning nearly four hundred years ago. How much more of Judaism survived amongst West African negroes in that earlier time? As persecuted communities, they were rather more in danger than other negroes of being raided by war-parties and sold as slaves. It may be considered certain that many partially Judaized negroes were among the slaves brought to America. How many of them might still hold some Jewish customs in their new home is another question.

---

quote:

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European Journal of Sociology / Archives Européennes de Sociologie / Europäisches Archiv für Soziologie, Vol. 28, No. 2, Liberalism: a communitarian critique (1987),
pp. 217-240

ULYSSES SANTAMARIA

Black Jews: The Religious challenge or Politics versus Religion

Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion:


"These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves. were transported to America from West Africa during the trade wich started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves. It is virtually certain that many part Jewish Negroes were among those sent as slaves to America. How many of them would have been able to conserve some Jewish customs is another question.


This conclusion put forward by Godbey, which argues for the existence of a more or less recurrent Judaism in West Africa in the same places as those from which the Negroes were taken, is shared by others, such as Maurice Delafosse. But most significantly it has been adopted by a class of educated Black Americans as a key argument to demonstrate that the Jewish religion is the traditional religion of Africans brought in slavery to the American continent. Nothing either confirms or repudiates this theory. In fact we need to be very cautious in this instance. It is difficult to accept without some debate the thesis that these black slaves, in the frequently insupportable material conditions in which they were forced to live, were able to conserve, maintain and transmit a religion such as the Jewish religion. It is a commonplace that this religion in particular is subject to strict and well defined rules of behaviour and ritual. In this context the case of the Islamicised Peuls can obviously be cited. They were brought in on the slave trading boats and knew how to read and write Arabic. But even this instruction which could have acted as a means of resistance could not have been transmitted through the groups of black slaves on the plantations. It is easier to accept that the Jews of North Africa and of the Iberian peninsula had contact with the African Negro block; that they were forced to seek refuge in Black Africa and to mix with the indigenous population; and that their descendants kept bits and pieces of their religious customs. It is understandable that the argument for the existence of Black Jewish communities on the African continent acted as the support and the basis for a mythography, 'because the purpose of myth is not to offer an objective image of the world but to explain the way in which man is to understand his relation to the world' (Bultmann). We cannot however see this myth of black slaves with traditional Jewish faith simply as a straightforward literary or philosophical creation. This mythology is weighed down by a whole series of factors, above all that of the psychology of the Black American.

---

Again you accept how Sanatamaria for some reason leaves out the word "Judaized" when quoting Godbey
but you would not accept all this other stuff he says after that which you leave out

You are picking and choosing
You are saying this and that scholar is saying some thing and emphasizing "Cambridge" that we should accept
but on this basis why would you not accept the other stuff Santamaria is saying about myth making

You highlighted the Godbey quote yet did not show the book page from Godbey.
In Santamaria's article he has a bibliography but it doesn't even have Godbey in it and he left out a closing parenthesis mark.
I can't tell if this is a corruption of the quote or some other edition of the Godbey book but the differences are interesting


Godbey
These facts have a peculiar significance when the presence of Judaism among American negroes is to be considered. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were brought to America from this Western Africa during the days of the traffic, beginning nearly four hundred years ago. How much more of Judaism survived amongst West African negroes in that earlier time? As persecuted communities, they were rather more in danger than other negroes of being raided by war-parties and sold as slaves. It may be considered certain that many partially Judaized negroes were among the slaves brought to America. How many of them might still hold some Jewish customs in their new home is another question.


Sanatmaria quoting Godbey:
"These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves. were transported to America from West Africa during the trade wich started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves. It is virtually certain that many part Jewish Negroes were among those sent as slaves to America. How many of them would have been able to conserve some Jewish customs is another question.



If you think someone said something wrong and are quoting them you can't change the quote
because a quote has to be the exact words the person said even if contain errors.


Wen Santamaria says "Part Jewish Negroes" that does not exclude the possibility that they could have been "Judaized" (converted to) even if he did not use the word

There are many other differences in the wording, to mention a couple
Godbey says "four hundred" Santamaria says "400".
Santamaria uses the misspelled word "wich" in the same sentence about 400 years ago, Godbey does not use the word even with correct spelling "which"

It just seems like a sloppy copy of Godbey, that was in 1987 when we did not have all this quick internet access and the book is not easy to come by. Godbey's book not listed in the bibliography another red flag as to the reliability of the accuracy of the quote

If you want to quote Godbey use the primary.
Sanatamaria could be quoted for his own remarks

Sanatamaria said "part Jewish negroes"
and how is that exactly defined?
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@BrandonP

It's very interesting how certain individuals are trying to make it seem as though black Jews being taken as slaves in the transatlantic trade was an uncommon or farfetched phenomenon, when historical documents record the fact that it was a widespread occurence.

The black Jews in that one west african location (Judah/Whydah) were said to be the best and most expensive slaves. However, according to the Cambridge source, all black/negro Jews in west africa were more likely to be targeted and captured for slavery -- and black/negro Jews were in many different west african locations.
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness,

I did not read any of what you just wrote... Didn't you already get caught lying and misrepresenting the first source I posted on the first page of this thread?

The one speaking about the blacks in west africa that says "judaism was the religion of the ancient africans for a long time..."... etc.

Didn't you already get caught in a huge lie, trying to say that wasn't speaking about west africa -- which prompted me to provide an additional source confirming that it was indeed speaking about west africa?

With that being said, why in the hell should anybody believe that you are now all of a sudden being honest and forthcoming in the wall of text that you just posted?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] @the lioness,

I did not read any of what you just wrote... Didn't you already get caught lying and misrepresenting the first source I posted on the first page of this thread?

The one speaking about the blacks in west africa that says "judaism was the religion of the ancient africans for a long time..."... etc.

Didn't you already get caught in a huge lie, trying to say that wasn't speaking about west africa -- which prompted me to provide an additional source confirming that it was indeed speaking about west africa?

With that being said, why in the hell should anybody believe that you are now all of a sudden being honest and forthcoming in the wall of text that you just posted?

---

quote:

---

mixed with many Arabian words. So much for the whites. We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit.
Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this Country which are inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People. Judaism was the Religion of the - ancient Africans for a long Time and succeeded by Christianity ; but Mahometanism (Mohammadism)
prevail'd in the 208th Year of the Hegyra (The Hijrah was the journey the Islamic prophet Muhammad and his followers took from Mecca to Medina) when all the Jews, Christians, and Professors of the African Religion that could be found, were put to Death ; yet in Process of Time their intestine Quarrels made them neglect
Mahomet's Law, and revolt from the Caliph
of Bagdad, for which they were feverely
punish'd by the Mahometan Caliphs, who caus'd all their Books to be burnt, on Suspicion that the Knowledge of the Arts and
Sciences prompted them to contemn Mahomet's Law. The Africans on the Coast are
still very gross Idolaters."
Marmot fays That those of Barbary continu’d to worship the Sun and Fire, till the Year 349, when they were converted to Christianity. Some of the Negroes of Lower Ethiopia worshipped the Sun, Moon or Scars; others Water, Fire, or the firft living. Thing they met when they went abroad. Those of Upper Ethiopia worshipped the Lord of Heaven before the Queen of Sheba went to Solomon to be instructed in the Law of Moses and the Pro phets, when they embrac’d Judaism, as did also some of the Inhabitants of Lower Ethiopia, who continu’d in it till they were taught

"Atlas Geographus: Or, A Compleat System of Geography, Ancient and Modern" page 39 (1714)

https://books.google.com/books/about/For_Africa_Containing_What_is_of_Most_Us.html?id=8bdZAAAAcAAJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

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The decline of the Jewish communities of West Africa can be traced to the arrival of Muslim invaders in the 14th and 15th centuries. North and West African Jews banded with other local communities of Berbers, Christians and Greeks to ward of the invaders, but eventually succumbed. Many were forced to convert to Islam sold into slavery or simply massacred. In the face of this persecution written traditions, such as the Torah, were lost.

- Nigeria Virtual Jewish History Tour

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

---

---

quote:

---

Persecution and trade have been the major influencing factors in how the Jews migrated through Africa. During periods of Islamic persecution and for the purposes of trade, Jews moved from communities in Egypt, Ethiopia, Tunisia and Morocco to more remote regions of North and West Africa. Trade routes to West Africa may have been established as early as the period in which David ruled Israel, and the term Tarshish, found in the Tanach, may refer to the Ivory Coast of West Africa.

The decline of the Jewish communities of West Africa can be traced to the arrival of Muslim invaders in the 14th and 15th centuries. North and West African Jews banded with other local communities of Berbers, Christians and Greeks to ward of the invaders, but eventually succumbed. Many were forced to convert to Islam, sold into slavery or simply massacred. In the face of this persecution written traditions, such as the Torah, were lost. The Ibo Benei-Yisrael, though having no written evidence of their Jewish heritage, maintained a strong oral tradition and practiced many Jewish customs in secret. Records of these medieval Jewish communities, found in the Timbuktu, Mali Islamic Library, indicate the presence of Jewish families in the region before the arrival of Islam in the 1300’s CE

- Nigeria Virtual Jewish History Tour

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Your "honest interpretation" is bullsh*t, as always. Rarely are you honest, which is why I don't take addressing you seriously. I provided an additional source from the jewish virtual library website that confirmed the original source I posted was speaking about events that happened in west africa.

Do you admit that your "honest interpretation" was wrong and incorrect?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
I don't enjoy repeating myself but find it necessary when important questions are dodged/ignored.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Your "honest interpretation" is bullsh*t, as always. Rarely are you honest, which is why I don't take addressing you seriously. I provided an additional source from the jewish virtual library website that confirmed the original source I posted was speaking about events that happened in west africa.

Do you admit that your "honest interpretation" was wrong and incorrect?

---

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quote:

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Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:
More of an argument can be made that there were Muslims brought to America as slaves than any claims of mass amounts of Jews brought as slaves from West Africa. It actually has been documented that there were Muslims brought to the USA as slaves but no one is claiming those people were the "original" black Muslims. Your claims Afro Americans being descendants of original Jews is debunked and has no merit

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:


The entire portion of page 39 is speaking about blacks or negroes.
It literally says so at the top of the page. It literally informs the reader that the next topic is "blacks" or black people, and then it goes on to talk about them.

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As we below mention of Blacks is not a heading or talking about the rest of the page. It is saying Blacks of Guinea, Negroland and the Cape of Good hope will be discussed in later chapters.
What the authors process to say is that Leo Africanus talks about Kingdoms of the southern frontier of this country
and it was Morocco being spoken about (continuing for the previous page) but does not specify which.
"Black/s" does not come up again on this page.
And after this he mentions Barbary again which includes Morocco
Negroes of Lower Ethiopia are mentioned.
Then the author mentions the Arabians of the Barbary again at the bottom of the page, the Barbary is upper North West Africa, aka the Maghreb so in this preliminary overview of Africa chapter he is skipping around.

If you go south enough you might hit the Mali empire but to find details it might be somewhere else in the book but not under "Mali" it's not on this page, look into other possible terms

the words "black" "jew" and "negro" (or variants) are each in the book over 1oo times
I did not see "Black Jew" or "Negro Jew"
but I could have overlooked something and I would have posted it had I seen it


When the author says on the upper left of 39 "Judaism was the religion of ancient Africans for along time" obviously it's one a large number of religions in Africa and he doesn't specify what the boundary of "ancient" is.

Show me ANY reference to West Africa on page 39

For discussion of West Africa you will have to go elsewhere in the book and use older terminology
to look into the West African kingdoms
I haven't done this


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Atlas_Geographus_Or_A_Compleat_System_of/8bdZAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1


Look into the old Arab historians, you dont have to only stick with the Europeans

quote:

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According to the 17th century Tarikh al-Fattash and the Tarikh al-Sudan, several Jewish communities existed as parts of the Ghana, Mali, and later Songhai empires. One such community was formed by a group of Egyptian Jews, who allegedly traveled by way of the Sahel corridor through Chad into Mali. Manuscript C of the Tarikh al-Fattash described a community called the Bani Israel; in 1402, it lived in Tindirma, possessed 333 wells, and had seven princes as well as an army.

Another such community was that of the Zuwa ruler of Koukiya (located at the Niger River). His name was known only as Zuwa Alyaman, meaning "He comes from Yemen". According to an isolated local legend, Zuwa Alyaman was a member of one of the Jewish communities transported from Yemen by Abyssinians in the 6th century CE after the defeat of Dhu Nuwas. Zuwa Alyaman was said to have traveled into West Africa along with his brother. They established a community in Kukiya at the banks of the Niger River downstream from Gao. According to the Tarikh al-Sudan, after Zuwa Alyaman, there were 14 Zuwa rulers of Gao before the rise of Islam in the second half of the eleventh century.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:


Lyinass claims the relevant portion on page 39 of this source isn't speaking about black Jews when it says "judaism was the religion of ancient africans for a long time".

The entire portion of page 39 is speaking about blacks or negroes. It literally says so at the top of the page. It literally informs the reader that the next topic is "blacks" or black people, and then it goes on to talk about them.

Here is the page again, for reference:



Lyinass is trying to separate black people in west africa from everything in red that says "Judaism was the reliigion of the ancient africans for a long time and succeeded by christianity..." and then it goes on to talk about how these black Jews in west africa were conquered by islamic muslims (mahometonism) who forced them to convert to islam and burnt all their books. According to Lyinass, this isn't talking about black people or black Jews in west africa -- he claims it's talking about non-blacks in north africa.

This is an easy lie to expose because other sources like the jewish virtual library website confirm that these things are indeed events that happened to Jews in west africa. It confirms that Jews in west africa were invaded by islamic muslims, forced to convert to islam, and their written texts were lost.

quote:

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The decline of the Jewish communities of West Africa can be traced to the arrival of Muslim invaders in the 14th and 15th centuries. North and West African Jews banded with other local communities of Berbers, Christians and Greeks to ward of the invaders, but eventually succumbed. Many were forced to convert to Islam sold into slavery or simply massacred. In the face of this persecution written traditions, such as the Torah, were lost.

- Nigeria Virtual Jewish History Tour

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Show me ANY reference to West Africa on page 39

For discussion of West Africa you will have to go elsewhere in the book and use older terminology
to look into the West African kingdoms
I haven't done this

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Rofl. As shown in my comment above. It literally speaks about Jews on both sides of the niger river in the highlighted portion on the right-hand side of page 39.



Sit down and shut the hell up already, you're disgusting. This is the second time you have been caught in lies. Although this time I honestly believe the issue was your non-existent reading/comprehension skills.

You typed all that for nothing, as usual.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Ok you're right about that quote "Jews who inhabit both sides of Niger derive themselves from Niger"

I have never said there were no Jews in West Africa
But more detail is need than this vague both sides of a river.
there were some Jews in West Africa,


So we are in agreement right?
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
LMAO!!!!!!

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Stop wasting my time

Now I bet you're about to post another long wall of bullsh*t to try and get out of the fact that you're an incompetent liar who has no idea what the hell they are talking about
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
It's an 800 page book surely there must be some details
describing some particular Jewish community around that river.
I don't have time trying to find something, you do it and get back to us

And this is only Volume 4 !

And I told your ass, it's the medieval Arab writers who have written about this far prior to the Europeans

No more of this vague legend-level stuff
Need some first hand accounts. That means the writer themselves was at a location taking notes of what they saw. Not this second hand stuff like Oldendorp, where an unnamed somebody whispered stuff in his ear
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
You aren't looking for answers, you're trying to hide the answers. Your ass has spent days trying to lie and say this page wasn't talking about west africa and you put so much effort into the lies. Even after being caught and corrected twice, you're still acting like a devil. You seriously expect me to want to dialogue about any of this with you? Rofl. The only reason you ever get any of my attention is so that I can demonsrate to future readers how far evil anti-black losers like you will go to try covering this info up.

You, "the lioness", should not expect any serious further dialogue from me in this thread. If you attempt to engage me I'm just going to keep pointing out how you've lied your ass off in this thread on multiple occasions.

Another interesting thing to note is that you never, ever cite your own sources. The only tactic your demonic ass employs is trying to gaslight and make it seem like I'm misunderstanding my sources... and we can clearly see how far that has gotten you.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
say this page wasn't talking about west africa and

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
both sides of that page was talking about west africa. Anybody can scroll up and see for themselves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
There is no better feeling than to catch a liar

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quote:

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The decline of the Jewish communities of West Africa can be traced to the arrival of Muslim invaders in the 14th and 15th centuries. North and West African Jews banded with other local communities of Berbers, Christians and Greeks to ward of the invaders, but eventually succumbed. Many were forced to convert to Islam sold into slavery or simply massacred. In the face of this persecution written traditions, such as the Torah, were lost.

- Nigeria Virtual Jewish History Tour

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

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2) The right-hand side of the page (highlighted portion) contains information about black Jews living on both sides of the niger river in west africa (it literally mentions the niger river.)

Lyinass has claimed more than once that nothing on this page was talking about west africa, and he is still trying to gaslight.

Get a life?


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] Lioness is still trying to act like both sides of this page are not talking about west africa when:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] What a dumb ass, now it has to literally say a west african location?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:


https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Nautical_Magazine_and_Naval_Chronicl/bk5WAAAAcAAJ

Lastly, French sources from as early as 1768 say that modern jewish people had not even been to west africa, so the idea that jewish people were in west africa converting "black africans" to judaism is utter nonsense.

[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:

Black Jews From Judah/Whydah Were the Best and Most Expensive Slaves in Africa

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Whydah

The Kingdom of Whydah (/ˈhwɪdə, ˈhwɪdˌɔː/ known locally as; Glexwe / Glehoue, but also known and spelt in old literature as; Hueda, Whidah, Ajuda, Ouidah, Whidaw, Juida, and Juda[1] (Yoruba: Igelefe; French: Ouidah) was a kingdom on the coast of West Africa in what is now Benin.[2] It was a major slave trading area which exported more than one million Africans to the United States, the Caribbean and Brazil before closing its trade in the 1860s.[3] In 1700, it had a coastline of around 16 kilometres (10 mi);[4] under King Haffon, this was expanded to 64 km (40 mi), and stretching 40 km (25 mi) inland.[5]

The Kingdom of Whydah was centered in Savi. It also had connection to the city of Ouidah. The last ruler of Whydah was King Haffon, who was deposed in 1727, when Whydah was conquered (and annexed) by the Kingdom of Dahomey.

The name Whydah is an anglicised form of Xwéda (pronounced Xʷi-dah), from the Xweda Gbe language and people of Benin. Today, the Beninese city of Ouidah bears the kingdom's name. To the west of it is the former Popo Kingdom, where most of the European slave traders lived and worked.

The area gives its name to the native whydah bird, and to Whydah Gally, a slave ship turned pirate ship owned by pirate captain "Black Sam" Bellamy. Its wreck has been explored in Massachusetts.

According to one European, who visited in 1692–1700, Whydah was a center of the ancient Africa slave trade, selling some thousand slaves a month, mainly taken captive from villages in the interior of Africa. For this reason, it has been considered a "principal market" for slaves. When the great chief (called ‘king’ by Europeans) could not supply the traders with sufficient slaves, he would supplement them with his own wives. Robbery was common. Every person in Whydah paid a toll to the king, but corruption amongst slave traders was endemic.

__________________________________

Ouidah (English: /ˈwiːdə/; French: [wi.da]) or Whydah (/ˈhwɪdə, -ɔː/; Ouidah, Juida, and Juda by the French;[2][3] Ajudá by the Portuguese;[4] and Fida by the Dutch), and known locally as Glexwe, formerly the chief port of the Kingdom of Whydah, is a city on the coast of the Republic of Benin. The commune covers an area of 364 km2 (141 sq mi) and as of 2002 had a population of 76,555 people.

Ouidah saw its role in international trade rise when the Royal African Company (RAC) constructed a fort there in 1650

Whydah troops pushed their way into the African interior, capturing millions of people through wars, and selling them to European and Arab slave traders.[9] By 1716, the Kingdom of Whydah had become the second largest slave port in the triangular trade, as noted by the crew of the slave ship Whydah Gally when it arrived to purchase 500 slaves from King Haffon to sell in Jamaica.

The Kingdom was ruled by King Haffon, who received his coronation crown as a gift from Portugal, until, in 1727, the Kingdom of Whydah was captured by the forces of King Agaja of Dahomey.[10] On 19 March 1727, The Boston News-Letter gave this report:

In 1860, Whydah was the port that sent the last recorded shipment of slaves to the United States, even though that country had prohibited the transatlantic slave trade in 1808.
_______________________________________________




There is no proof given as to why the name Whydah
Ouidah can only be given to it by Jews or here the claim
it was pronounced "Judah"

By 1716, the Kingdom of Whydah annexed by the Dahomey had become the second largest slave port and sent the last recorded shipment of slaves to the United States so it was not obscure.

To prove there were any Jews there would have to go beyond all these variant pronunciations of the name


So the preferred and expensive thing all stems out of a corruption of the name, if not proper in sound, not proper in assuming even a word that might sound the sound in two different languages, had the same meaning

___________________________________

quote:

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Although ‘Ouidah’ is the spelling of the town’s name current nowadays, it occurs in European sources between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries in various other forms: in English most commonly ‘Whydah’, in Dutch ‘Fida’, in French ‘Juda’, and in Portuguese ‘Ajuda’. All these are attempts to render an indigenous name that would be more correctly written, by modern conventions, as ‘Hueda’ (or in a dialect variant ‘Peda’). Strictly and originally, Hueda was not the name of the town nowadays called Ouidah, but rather of the kingdom to which it belonged in the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries, whose capital was Savi, 11 km further north.? The people of Hueda belonged to the same linguistic group as the Fon of Dahomey, although historically distinct from them; this language family is nowadays generally called by scholars ‘Gbe’ (but formerly commonly ‘Ewe’ or ‘Adja’, and in French colonial usage ‘Djedji’).? In contemporary sources, the name Hueda may have been noted first by Spanish missionaries visiting the kingdom of Allada to the north-east in 1660, who recorded it (apparently) in the form ‘Jura’ or ‘Iura’;* more certainly, it enters the historical record in 1671 (as ‘Juda’), when the French first established a trading factory there.’ In 1727 the Hueda kingdom was conquered by the inland kingdom of Dahomey. As a political unit, it thereafter survived only in the form of a minor successor-state, formed by refugees from the Dahomian conquest, on the western shore of Lake Ahémé (Hen), about 20 km west of Ouidah, this relocated kingdom being distinguished as Hueda-Henji, ‘Hueda on [Lake] Hen’.® However, the name Hueda (in its various European misspellings) continued to be applied to the coastal town, now subject to Dahomey. In the present work, to avoid confusion, the form ‘Hueda’ is used only to refer to the pre-1727 kingdom, and after 1727 to the successor kingdom-in-exile established to the west, while the modern form ‘Ouidah’ is used of the town.


survival of a substantial Hueda element in the population of Dahomian Ouidah, recalled in local tradition, is confirmed by a contemporary report of 1780s that ‘there are still at Juda many of the former inhabitants or their descendants’, who were recognizable by their distinctive facial marks.''°


Ouidah : the social history of a West African slaving 'port', 1727-1892
by Law, Robin

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quote:

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Originally videoed by Tazarah:

I don't like to just
you know take other people's uh thoughts
and opinions on things...

I like to
make counterarguments on things you know
that's just how my brain is let's say
that it is actually saying the blacks of
Judah are the uh best and dearest

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quote:

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Origins Ouidah before the Dahomian conquest (of 1727)

The French move from Allada to Hueda was soon followed by the other principal European nations engaged in the trade, the English and Portuguese in the 1680s and the Dutch in the 1690s, leaving Ouidah as the dominant ‘port’ in the region by the end of the seventeenth century. The slave trade through Ouidah had reached a volume of probably around 10,000 slaves per year by the 1690s, and attained its all-time peak in the years 1700-13, when probably around 15,000 slaves annually were passing through the town;* at this period, indeed, Ouidah may have been accounting for around half of all trans-Atlantic exports of African slaves.**

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The French writer c. 1768
does not have it right.
The Whydah (the Hueda Kingdom) "Juda" were the ones selling slaves before the Dahomey took over and the after they took over in 1727 the slave selling continued

The high prices and "best" slaves were being provided at Whydah at that point controlled by the Dahomey
despite what that 1809 dictionary claimed, it'a not Whydahian slaves
it's slaves bought at Whydah at the port of Ouidah



HAFFON

Haffon (1695–1727) was the last ruler of the Kingdom of Whydah before it was captured by the forces of Dahomey in 1727.

Born in 1695, Haffon became King of Whydah in 1708. He was not crowned in a formal ceremony at Savi until April 1725. His coronation party included 40 of his favorite wives. The 1725 date is that given by Chevalier des Marchais but some modern scholars argue it happened in 1717–1718.
_____________________________________________

The word here has nothing to do with Jews

Why does this African king have that gun and European wig?

Because this king of Juida has been collecting slaves from various places to sell to the Europeans and charging higher prices and trading for these things
 

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Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Hey guys look, Lyinass is having a meltdown after getting caught lying for days about the original source I posted. He lied for days and kept trying to claim it wasn't speaking about west africa and only halfway admit the truth yesterday after being forced to. Now he thinks he can post more long essays of nonsense and deception and that people will take him seriously, even after he has thoroughly demonstrated that he is a lying deceiver.

What else is new

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
The area gives its name to the native whydah bird, and to Whydah Gally, a slave ship turned pirate ship owned by pirate captain "Black Sam" Bellamy. Its wreck has been explored in Massachusetts.

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^ Unsurprisingly, this quote that Lyinass copy/pasted from wikipedia (lol) has no source for this claim, nor anything legitimately backing it up...that did not stop Lyinass from posting it though.

He makes a strawman argument about the name of the place not actually being called "Juda/Judah" (which is irrelevant) yet we have Ph.D scholars (actual scholars, not lying trolls in EgyptSearch web forums with zero credentials) who confirm that the natives still pronounce the name as "Judah" to this day.



But as I said, that is irrelevant and a strawman because the only reason I initially posted this source:



^ was to demonstrate that it was a known fact that modern jewish people had not ventured into this part of west africa, therefore making it impossible for these black Jews to be converts as Lyinass was trying to imply. He very well knows this is why I posted that source (I literally explained that's why I was posting it when I first posted it) yet he still chose to create a failed strawman argument about the name of the place because he is a deceiving moron.

I have never made any arguments based on the name of the location.

Now his argument is to claim that actual scholars who were alive during that time period were "wrong" and he tries to imply (without any evidence) that the black Jews of Judah/Whydah were the ones selling slaves. Lol, none of his claims or assertions are backed by any supporting evidence and more importantly than that, he is a lying scumbag who has already been caught in several lies in this thread alone. Which makes it even more hilarious that he thinks referring to information as "wrong" actually means anything.

Zero evidence of the relevant native black Jews of Judah/Whydah selling slaves there.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

Origins Ouidah before the Dahomian conquest (of 1727)

The French move from Allada to Hueda was soon followed by the other principal European nations engaged in the trade, the English and Portuguese in the 1680s and the Dutch in the 1690s, leaving Ouidah as the dominant ‘port’ in the region by the end of the seventeenth century. The slave trade through Ouidah had reached a volume of probably around 10,000 slaves per year by the 1690s, and attained its all-time peak in the years 1700-13, when probably around 15,000 slaves annually were passing through the town;* at this period, indeed, Ouidah may have been accounting for around half of all trans-Atlantic exports of African slaves.**


The French writer c. 1768
does not have it right.
The Whydah (the Hueda Kingdom) "Juda" were the ones selling slaves before the Dahomey took over and the after they took over in 1727 the slave selling continued

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First of all, the french scholar I referenced did not even say that the Dahomeans were the ones who started the slave trade in Judah/Whydah, so this is yet another strawman argument.

But once again this illiterate clown fails to comprehend what they are reading. His own source says that before Dahomey took over, slaves were brought through Judah/Whydah, not that the natives of Judah/Whydah themselves were selling slaves (Lyinass literally just made that up.)

This is because Judah/Whydah was also a slave port on the slave coast. And the slaves needed to be brought through the Kingdom of Judah/Whydah in order to get to the slave boats in the port of Judah.



"THE EMBASSY OF DAOMÉ IN SALVADOR (1750): DIPLOMATIC PROTOCOLS AND THE POLITICAL AFFIRMATION OF A STATE IN EXPANSION IN WEST AFRICA" by José Rivair Macedo, page 108, Brazilian Journal of African Studies

https://media.proquest.com/media/hms/PFT/1/CmgVH?_s=%2Bd91HtL%2B8tsVDQEKET4OCnbP3t4%3D

Even if what he were saying is true (which it's not), that doesn't take away from the fact that the french scholar of the initial source in question recorded the fact that black Judaic negroes were being bought and sold in Judah/Whydah west africa for the transatlantic trade to america.

Also, if Lyinass had been actually paying attention instead of being so desperate to spread lies and disinformation, he would have seen how I explained that the source about black Jews in Judah being sold to america was written well before 1809, and is quite literally a primary source -- not a modern source published centuries later.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
It was published in 1809 but if you look up the author (Jean Baptiste Ladvocat), he was born in 1709 and died in 1765. So the information must have been written sometime in between.

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Regarding the photo that Lyinass posted -- the prince's outfit/items are irrelevant and a strawman/red herring, and the date that the prince was crowned is irrelevant and another strawman/red herring as well (are we surprised?), the passage in the source starts off by clearly identifying the blacks of the kingdom of Judah/Whydah as being the best/most expensive black slaves in africa, describes how they were being brought to america, and the passage concludes by identifying them as Judaic. Clearly the source is not referring to the black dahomeans who conquered Judah/Whydah (or anyone else for that matter), and is describing the Judaic blacks of Judah/Whydah as their own separate entitity.


 

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