Then Another Newmember wrote this on the foods muslims can eat thread this week Quote:-

Mark don't confuse cultural traditions with religion. The Quran say both men and women are equal in the following verses:

3:195 "I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other "

4:32 "Men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn; and ask Allah of His grace; surely Allah knows all things"

4:124 " If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them."

So I thought I would just compare the translations with my book...only to find every verse is missing. I had not noticed before my reference numbers have gaps in them. (End of quote)

This makes my English tanslation a somewhat sexist version in that those paras refered to by Another Newmember all relate to women's rights in Islam. I am shocked to realise these translations that we are seeking to rely on to learn from are not complete and selective in what is included.

Hm ...

I know that translations can differ to a great extent, but I never heard that whole verses are ommitted. Back home I have a two language version (Arabic - English) and I actually prefer that. If you're not sure if the translation is correct at least you can look at the original word and then look it up and see the different meanings.

To be honest I have not seen the translation that you mention, but as in any reference book you should always look for the most reliable ones. All the translations/interpretations of the Qur'an have some weaknesses as they are attempts to interpet the Word of Allah in a language other than the original. But the most commonly referred to translations/interpretations of the Qur'an are "The Noble Qu'ran" by Muhammed Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Muhammed Muhsin Khan and "The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

The first is a little bit heavy as it includes references to relevant Hadith and also gives more than one meaning to some of the Arabic words during the translation. Yusuf Ali wrote his translation during the British occupation of India and softened down some of his translations to make it more appealing to Christians. There was also had a heavy Sufi influence in the original versions, which the later editions published in Saudi Arabia removed. There is also a new revised translation by Saheeh International that had tried to make the Muhsin Khan translation more readable which I quite like.

There must be a reason other than sexism for their omission as it has occurred in two different translations.

3. 190 ............And the Lord answers them "Waste not the labour among you be you both male or female - the one of you is as the other.

4.35 ........To the men a share from what they have earned and to the women a share from what they have earned. Ask God for his bounty. God knows eerything.

4.120 .........And whosoever does deeds of righteousness, be it male or female believing - they shall enter Paradise and not be wronged a single date-spot.

If you keep looking Penny I think that you will find them in the groupings in your version too.

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
I have been reading the Penguin Classics translation of the Koran by N J Dawood which claims to have sold over a million copies world wide.

Then Another Newmember wrote this on the foods muslims can eat thread this week Quote:-

Mark don't confuse cultural traditions with religion. The Quran say both men and women are equal in the following verses:

3:195 "I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other "

4:32 "Men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn; and ask Allah of His grace; surely Allah knows all things"

4:124 " If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them."

So I thought I would just compare the translations with my book...only to find every verse is missing. I had not noticed before my reference numbers have gaps in them. (End of quote)

This makes my English tanslation a somewhat sexist version in that those paras refered to by Another Newmember all relate to women's rights in Islam. I am shocked to realise these translations that we are seeking to rely on to learn from are not complete and selective in what is included.

Any comments?
Penny

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I raised this topic before, keep researching, you will be way more shocked just like myself at one time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
I have been reading the Penguin Classics translation of the Koran by N J Dawood which claims to have sold over a million copies world wide.

Then Another Newmember wrote this on the foods muslims can eat thread this week Quote:-

Mark don't confuse cultural traditions with religion. The Quran say both men and women are equal in the following verses:

3:195 "I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other "

4:32 "Men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn; and ask Allah of His grace; surely Allah knows all things"

4:124 " If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them."

So I thought I would just compare the translations with my book...only to find every verse is missing. I had not noticed before my reference numbers have gaps in them. (End of quote)

This makes my English tanslation a somewhat sexist version in that those paras refered to by Another Newmember all relate to women's rights in Islam. I am shocked to realise these translations that we are seeking to rely on to learn from are not complete and selective in what is included.

Any comments?
Penny

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LL' version:-
3. 190 ............And the Lord answers them "Waste not the labour among you be you both male or female - the one of you is as the other.

My Version:-
3.192............... Their Lord answers them saying 'I will not deny no man or woman among you the rewards of their labours. You are the offspring of one another
-------------------------------------------
LL's version
4.35 ........To the men a share from what they have earned and to the women a share from what they have earned. Ask God for his bounty. God knows eerything.

My Version
4.26.........men shall be rewarded according to their deeds and women shall be rewarded according to their to their deeds. Rather implore god to bestow on you his gifts. Surely God has knowledge os all things.
--------------------------------------------
LL's version
4.120 .........And whosoever does deeds of righteousness, be it male or female believing - they shall enter Paradise and not be wronged a single date-spot.

My version
.............. As for those that have faith and do good works, we shall admit them to gardens watered by running streams, and there sall abide for ever
--------------------------------------------
So really all these quotes are taken out of context to support women's rights and I completely take back my comment that my translation is in anyway sexist. It certainly is interesting however to compare the translations and the differing meanings confered.

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Originally posted by jlittle:
What's up with all the religion on this board lately?

Are more Westerners, out of some false sense of post-colonial guilt, converting to Islam?

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This translation has added opinion based on the authors viewpoints regarding fiqh matters. They add this opinion in parentheses and it comes from one viewpoint on hadith. I do not consider this a proper way to translate the Quran. The added information is put in parentheses in the middle of the english text and someone who doesn't know the arabic or the issues and various viewpoints thinks it is from the text of the Quran itself. I consider it VERY misleading. I have had a LOT of experience with this version and my complaints about it come from personal experience with it. I have had many classes with non-muslims who get very confused by this translation. It is the version that is sent to the MSA's (muslim students association) in the USA and distributed free and this accounts for its 'popularity'. There are many people who have grave issues with this translation.

I would recommend reading 2 or more translations at the same time. Muhammed Pickenthall is very readable and yusuf ali is helpful due to its footnotes. There is another translation that came out in the last couple years because of the problems with the khan translation.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
The verse numbers that AnotherNewMember wrote correspond to the Arabic verse numbers. I would guess that there should be something in the English translations that indicate a separation of the verses as they are all standardized. As Dalia mentioned, its useful to have a copy with the Arabic as well as this ensures that everything is included.

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In the arabic version are the verse numbers complete and does the verse always have the same number from one book to another?
In my English version for example in the cow it starts with 2:1 the the next number is 2:10 and I cannot see 9 separate verses inbetween. The next number is then 2:17.

I did look at my two arabic versions which are beautiful presents from my husband but it is a lost cause for me!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Dalia:
Don't you live in Cairo, Penny?

Dar el Shorouk on Taalat Harb has many different versions of the Qur'an in different languages. Might be worth checking out.

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No my Egypt home is Sharm but we were planning on coming to Cairo in November so thanks for that. Our bookshop in Sharm always tells me 'it is coming next week' everytime I ask for anything no matter what it is!

It even has the arabic (spoken transliteration) and as someone stated above, it's good to learn the arabic version and also to remember that anything in (parenthesis) are insertions and not exact translations.

But like you, I don't speak or read arabic, so we have to rely on the many English translations for now. And you and I both know how rich the English language is, where there could easily be 20 words with the same meaning..he he

This reference 3 translations side by side:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

And this is the arabic(spoken-phonetic) transliteration: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/transliteration/

An Approximate Translation of the Meanings of
THE HONOURABLE QUR'RAN IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

by Sheiikh 'izziddin al-hayek

Distributed by Dar al Fikr

this has all the verses you quote. I got it through a Syrian friend and have no idea how you could order it. The language is not natural English but I find it totally OK

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
I have been reading the Penguin Classics translation of the Koran by N J Dawood which claims to have sold over a million copies world wide.

Any comments?
Penny

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Salam Penny,

The first Quran translation that i bought was by Dawood and it was quite confusing, shortly after i read a book that recommended translations to read and ones to stay away from. Dawood was mentioned as one to stay away from as his translations are generally biased and not very accurate! Infact i vaguely remember that it was said he is sexist in his translations.. so there you go.

Just did a quick search on the internet and came up with a page of brief reviews of most of the available translations/interpretations of the Qur’an that you might find useful. It explains who translated them and gives a quick comment about each one. You can find it at: http://alhafeez.org/rashid/qtranslate.html1956

That is useful. I shall definitely be getting a different translation. From what nefertiti says he is sexist after all! thanks everyone for all the recommendations.

-I don't understand how a translation of the Quran could be missing verses! I have on by Marmaduke Pickthall and although I haven't read it all, whenever I read it I find the verses I'm looking for.

-The verses MUST have the same number that is Sura "Al Imran" ( number 3) Ayat number 195 must appear in the translated version as 3-195
The same as it would appear in the Arabic version......simple and plain. They should not be gorouped either.If your translated version is missing verses or has the ayats numbered differently...get rid of it and get another one.

-The idea of dictionary is flawed, the words in Arabic as in any other language change in meaning with context. You really need to have a translated version(a good one) to understand the meaning of the ayat.

-The website http://www.islamicity.com has the best translation in my opinion, you can also listen to it. Even if you don't understand Arabic, it's a whole experience in itself.

-"3:195 And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another"

The ayat is not about equality between men and women. It's about God promising believers " Gardens with rivers flowing beneath" .

You have to read the whole Sura and understand the context.

-"4:32 And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things."

I don't like the translation although it's better than what you have posted....I will check for clarification ASAP. In my opinion "allotted" is the correct translation the part I don't like is "earn". My understanding of the ayat is : We should not be envious of one another because what we possess. God gives as he wishes. He allotted to men what they got and to women what they got. That is be it a man or a women whatever we get is a gift from God and God knows best.

*edit* to clarify a little more: whatever we recieve in life be it a result of work or else it is a gift from God. So although we may all work hard God will reward us as he wishes and he knows best
-4-124 ayat is a good translation.

What you also need is Interpretation (Tafsir) of the Quran not just the translation.
I read Quran in Arabic and whatever I don't understand is not a matter of translation but interpretation. Same applies in any other language at the matter of fact it's more important to read Tafsir if you can't read Arabic.

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Originally posted by Penny:
Good morning Newcomer

That is useful. I shall definitely be getting a different translation. From what nefertiti says he is sexist after all!

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You could get Amina Wadud's "Qur'an and Woman - Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's Perspective" if you want a different perspective on things that might appear sexist.

The first Quran I read was the Penguin Classics, unfortunately I lent it to someone so I cant check on the verses. I read it knowing it wouldnt be perfect as its and english translation of the meaning of Quran but it gave me the basics and the desire to learn more.

Good site for learning to recite Quran http://www.reciter.org/ click on reciter in english and wait for it to load, you can learn 1 verse at a time, it repeats as many times as you want