And do you seriously think your neighboors will accept that (what is in their eyes) a whore moves into their building and ruins everyone's reputation?

It is illegal for you to stay with an umarried egyptian man in a hotel for even one night.

There are ways of living together - depending where - but you are very discreet about it, the guy can't be some poor guy from a small village (who will easily be intimidated/harrassed by the police) etc.

The fact he wants you to BUY a flat is a BIG, BIG, BIG warning sign for you. There is absolutely no reason for you to buy a flat there, because rent is cheaper and you as a foreigner would probably have to put a big down payment for a property, etc.

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Originally posted by battery:
Thanks Saeeda, what kind of law is that, it really sucks...(sorry I know that it´s not up to u..) Well i think that we´ll find some kind of solution 4 the problem..or if not, maybe we just have to buy our own appartment...Or maybe we´ll think that orfi-thing..I just have to learn more about it...

Thanks

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I haven't yet met an Egyptian man who finds this law "sucks" when it's about a relationship between his sister, daughtur or mother and another guy. Western women should be grateful that such a law exists which gives them clear guide about how the community here view the relationship between man and woman, but sadly some women don't want to listen and then they come back and cry...old story

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

I haven't yet met an Egyptian man who finds this law "sucks" when it's about a relationship between his sister, daughtur or mother and another guy. Western women should be grateful that such a law exists which gives them clear guide about how the community here view the relationship between man and woman, but sadly some women don't want to listen and then they come back and cry...old story

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 28 January 2005).]

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I cant help but think there are a lot of double standards dependent upon money- and whether you are male or female etc. Its as though many people defend this view of looking down on people who dont want to rush into a marriage with what may seem as someone they dont know intimately well. Surely it is good that people uphold their own morality and not have people minding their business for them. It almost seems to me, that a lot of peple there- spend more time watching and condemning others instead of ensuring that life there is good for both men and women and improving education and quality of life. I am not condemning Egypt at all, just trying to say that people ther try to appear as though their country is superior to others and is above judgment. Whilst Egypt has some special things to offer- it is by no means perfect- and neither is anywhere else.

just one of the reasons is why I never wanted a bawab in my building or a cleaning lady to help me with the household chores.

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Originally posted by sue333:

I cant help but think there are a lot of double standards dependent upon money- and whether you are male or female etc. Its as though many people defend this view of looking down on people who dont want to rush into a marriage with what may seem as someone they dont know intimately well. Surely it is good that people uphold their own morality and not have people minding their business for them. It almost seems to me, that a lot of peple there- spend more time watching and condemning others instead of ensuring that life there is good for both men and women and improving education and quality of life. I am not condemning Egypt at all, just trying to say that people ther try to appear as though their country is superior to others and is above judgment. Whilst Egypt has some special things to offer- it is by no means perfect- and neither is anywhere else.

The point I make is- ok- the country does not approve of people living together, but what the hell is it to do with other people. Let him without sin cast the first stone- I think that rules us all out!!!

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Originally posted by sue333:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
[B]I appreciate all your views and totally agree with your statements and no i havent lived in Egypt- but does that make it right- that people do this- I havent lived in Egypt but travelled extensively and know that- i wont change things overnight- but it is about educating people and to be honest- the changes will happen- I just think that on a site like this we should encourage and not deny those changes- because on the whole, they are for the good- although I am sure there are instances- which i see here daily- which prove that not all changes are good.

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Sue as to expecting things to change..Why should Egypt change their customs and culture because it happens to suit us. The ORFI is already a measure to keep the tourist happy that is totally against the religion and culture. It causes far more problems than ever it solves. Personally I would think it a happy day that the government revoked this law and removed the hypocracy from the system.

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Originally posted by battery:
Very interesting...so I probably should just forget everything that we have planned. No living together until we´r married...which is probably never coz how can I get to know this person ever if I can´t be with him...my loss.

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No you can go the ORFI route if you wish ...it is legal...... but don't forget it's other name ... F..K contract. It is your life but just make sure you understand what it means. Actually have never met an Egyptian man who wants to live with a woman, they are not usually stupid enough to risk imprisonment. You could of course get to know him without having sex.

and PS. most of our parents managed to get to know each other without first living together, so c'mon! what is this excuse that you can't get to know someone unless you live with them. what you need to worry about is getting to know his family. look at the way his mom is, how his sisters are etc. because to stereotype - a lot of his perceptions of what a proper wife does will be based on his home environment.

Is that what his mother says as well?????
Would he accept it for his sister???????

I once asked a Sheikh this point...the answer it is haram whether public or not.

Have yet to find ANY eyes that see it as real marriage so please do NOT try to make out it is. Accept it for what it is but please leave the hypocracy out.

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Originally posted by saeeda:

i found out that the reputation of ORFI isn't as bad as often stated at all,
my fiance explained it to me like that: if you make it public and let everyone know that you married ORFI, then it's a real marriage in people's eyes. so it is not seen as something shameful at all. of course you are expected to marry legally also after that and not to split up again, which would then be seen as a shameful thing.

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Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by saeeda:
[b]
i found out that the reputation of ORFI isn't as bad as often stated at all,
my fiance explained it to me like that: if you make it public and let everyone know that you married ORFI, then it's a real marriage in people's eyes. so it is not seen as something shameful at all. of course you are expected to marry legally also after that and not to split up again, which would then be seen as a shameful thing.

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In answer to your initial question, battery, yes you can live with your boyfriend, but as others mentioned it is highly unusual here and you have to find the right area and the right landlord. I have several Egyptian friends who lived together with their girlfriends and they had no problems whatsoever.[/B][/QUOTE]

I know that you can get to know other person even if you don´t live together, but from my point of view if 2 people love each other and they want to take their relationship to "the 2nd level" they have to learn to live together and that´s how you can learn more about your partner.
And 4 me its important to know your man before u make any decisions about marriage.
I know that in Egypt the rules r different than in my country and I have to respect that and I do, but sometimes I find it very hard..