posted
Serious help required. I have befriended a woman, I am a woman, on several trips to Egypt. She is in desperate need of help and I do not know where to start. I require serious responses. I have just spoken to her about her forthcoming wedding. She has broken down in tears and has confided in me that she lost her virginity to a man she loved many years ago. She is, as you can understand, deeply concerned about her hymen and the shame this will | may bring to her and her family on her wedding night. I have suggested the repair of her hymen, can anyone please suggest how she can find a reputable doctor in Alexandria. I am deeply concerned for her and I have no idea how to help. Does anyone know the costs. I can wirw her the money. Please help.
Posts: 4 | From: london | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Zaykon. I so appreciate your response. I do not think she has the option. If anyone can offer some advice - please respond
Posts: 4 | From: london | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I am really interested to know-waht is the exact procedure to do this? Like where do they get the repair bit from? Is it a day surgery kind of thing? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question, I just dont know how do they do it? How do you ensure that blood would actually come?
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I dont call this a 'desperate need of help'.. she made a big mistake in her past but lying and covering it up is not the right answer. Its not her fiance but God that she should be worried about and seeking repentance and forgiveness from him. She should tell her fiance the truth, ofcourse he will be upset -i would be too if i found out my fiance was not a virgin as it would make me question his understanding and love for Islam... but being a good muslim is much more than just maintaining your virginity and the ability to admit your mistakes, face them and learn from them (no matter how big and what the consequences) speaks much more loudly to a persons character and integrity. Lies have short legs pretty soon they always have a way of catching up with you. If he loves her and knows her character he should be able to look past this one mistake (i'm sure he's made plenty of his own mistakes).. after all only God is perfect and only God can judge her.
Posts: 201 | From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Leila, thank you, I understand what you are saying. We have discussed this and she feels it isn't an option, as it will bring so much shame on her.
Posts: 4 | From: london | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Zaykon. I am glad to know there are men out there with attitudes like yours.
quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: well i am an egyptian man,i would prefer honesty rather than being bluffed which is not going to happen coz even if she repaired her hymen ,her future husband might know that it's repaired. so plz do tell her to be honest with him and if he is good man he will accept her as she is. it will even be better if he is muslim as i am coz if i was in same situation 1-if get to point where we r going to be married then i do love her. 2-if i do love her nothing can come between us. 3-i am not God to judge her. 4-if i cover her mistake in life God will cover mine at judgment day 1 thing i would ask is to be honest no matter what.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Well, in my opinion, virginity doesn't represent a flesh of meat, but a state of mind. Once lost, forever lost and no doctor could fix that. I'm not judgemental here, only God had the right to judge us, but let's think a little. Ok, she made a mistake and she slept with a man, even she already knew that it was forbidden. She will anwer for that later. But why does she want to do another mistake, covering the true with a lie? She want to get married only for the hack of it, or she really love the man?. Because a man could forgive her for breaking his heart, but he will never forgive her for breaking his trust!
Posts: 1744 | From: Romania | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
How do other people *know* she was a virgin? Does someone really come in and check the bed sheets?
Too much of a double standard for me...the man can easily conceal his past....
I read a short story fiction piece about an Indian woman on her wedding night. The first time she really got to spend some time with the man who was her husband. And they did not have sex because she did not feel ready to have sex with an almost-complete stranger.
So she bit the inside of her cheek and spat out blood onto the white piece of cloth the parents put on the bed for the wedding night..... Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
This might be TMI, but when I lost my virginity, there certainly wasn't enough blood to stain the sheets. Only some spotting afterward...
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Melati: I am really interested to know-waht is the exact procedure to do this? Like where do they get the repair bit from? Is it a day surgery kind of thing? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question, I just dont know how do they do it? How do you ensure that blood would actually come?
Ehem...melati..it's a very simple day surgery. I have a friend who s a doctor and used to do it to raped girls for free. Many times I'd talk to the girls to check on them and they say it wasnt painful or complicated.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: well for ur knowledge:
there are some women naturally born with no hymen at all still the husband know if she's virgin or not coz it's not just about some blood that stain the sheets
Zaykon: I have a friend who got divorced after two weeks bcz of this! He was her bf for 5 yrs! since she was 17 actually. He was-or seemed to be- an open minded well educated and well travelled man. Now, after a week he took her to the doctor the doctor said it's ok yr wife was born without it. The guy insisted that she bribed the doctor!!! and left her for a week and then came to reconcile. She filed for khol3 later bcz she couldnt stand the thought of living with a man who didn't trust her!
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Leila: Lies have short legs pretty soon they always have a way of catching up with you.
33:37 And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: well for ur knowledge:
there are some women naturally born with no hymen at all still the husband know if she's virgin or not coz it's not just about some blood that stain the sheets
See my post
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ngeg: it's a very simple day surgery. I have a friend who s a doctor and used to do it to raped girls for free. Many times I'd talk to the girls to check on them and they say it wasnt painful or complicated.
posted
Thanks Ngeg and Snoezin. Im sure that the girl would have become almost intact again if she is not like a regular sexually active person?Obviously not the hymen, but ... Like once a few years ago is not going to affect the ummmm, effect?
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
And wont it be like losing the viginity once more? I mean-for example if you were raped, this is not sex as per in a marital union, so its kind of like being a virgin when you first get married? Or does the girl want to feel REALLY like the first time? I mean its about her perception of herself?
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari: Don´t tell me this is a new requirement of the wedding album!
ROFL!!!
Hey, why hasn't some artificial type of chastity indicator for men been developed, something akin to the hymen, if having physicial proof of virginity is so important? Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Hey, why hasn't some artificial type of chastity indicator for men been developed, something akin to the hymen, if having physicial proof of virginity is so important?
posted
I for one did not bleed when I lost my virginity. It was very painful but I didn't bleed at all.
Posts: 2735 | From: my desk | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Any man who still believes in this archaic concept of 'intact' women before marriage while he himself participates in the opposite (getting as many women as possible) is not a man of honour! That is deceeption and if this is a cultural expectation then there will be problems.
If a man claims he love a woman, he does it selflessly and will accept the woman as she is providing honour is in their hearts. If a women's honour is between her legs then that is the wrong view for any type of relationship. Honour should be in action and word.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I appreciate all of your responses. I read your responses with interest and note that most of you are residing outside of Egypt. Obviously, I feel the same way you guys do, and feel saddened that she feels unable to be honest with the man she plans to spend the rest of her life with.
Posts: 4 | From: london | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by urgent help required: Serious help required. I have befriended a woman, I am a woman, on several trips to Egypt. She is in desperate need of help and I do not know where to start. I require serious responses. I have just spoken to her about her forthcoming wedding. She has broken down in tears and has confided in me that she lost her virginity to a man she loved many years ago. She is, as you can understand, deeply concerned about her hymen and the shame this will | may bring to her and her family on her wedding night. I have suggested the repair of her hymen, can anyone please suggest how she can find a reputable doctor in Alexandria. I am deeply concerned for her and I have no idea how to help. Does anyone know the costs. I can wirw her the money. Please help.
the turth may hurt but it will definetly heal... I will not mind or care if I was told the truth...or ever not told the truth..since I loved this person for who she is and her past is her past...but living in Egypt I do not know how I would of felt about it...
I think she should talk to the her fiancee about it ...openly and frankly...if she trusts him to be open minded..if not..Just let him gooooo
Posts: 2691 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I'm sorry to hear that your friend is looking for such surgery, but again, it is not my place or anyones place to judge her. I agree with those who sugested that cairo is a bettr place to get Hymenoraphy (not Hymenography) Sorry My Kingdom, "raphy" is a more apropriate expression than Hymenoplasty, since it is most of the time done by suturing the edges of thin mucus flaps from the vulva to function temporartly as a hymen and give the sens of difloration and a stain of blood. (same concept of the surgery named Tarsoraphy) I understand that it is not a well developed procedure in the west bocause no one needs it, but it is much more in practice here in Egypt becuase many seek to do it, they even come from all over the middle east asking for it. Actually there are many techniues to do it. One of the tricky questions in PHD oral exams for Obs&Gyn is techniques of Hymenoraphy. the right ansewr ofcourse is "I don't know", other wise you fail your exam for moral reasons (most reputable doctors consider it a criminal procedure becuase it aimes only to fool and victimize another person). As for names and contacts for doctors who would agree to do such procedure, I don't think it will be easy to get any over the net. It is already hard to get one in person, so over the net is gonna be more of a metion impossible.
One more thing. Virginity is a very important thing both for men and women, we as a middle eastern society appreciate and honer this very much, and it is just as foribben for men as for women. So for the sake of god, to all the men out there, if you are not a virgin, why on earth do u look down on women who are just like you?! it just happens (just happens) that women have something that might prove thier virginity. That doesn't mean that men should enjoy more rights than they are allowed to.
quote:Originally posted by urgent help required: I appreciate all of your responses. I read your responses with interest and note that most of you are residing outside of Egypt. Obviously, I feel the same way you guys do, and feel saddened that she feels unable to be honest with the man she plans to spend the rest of her life with.
quote:Originally posted by dwgendy: One of the tricky questions in PHD oral exams for Obs&Gyn is techniques of Hymenoraphy. the right ansewr ofcourse is "I don't know", other wise you fail your exam for moral reasons (most reputable doctors consider it a criminal procedure becuase it aimes only to fool and victimize another person).
Are physicians in Egypt taught how to do abortions? Is this considered criminal too? Just curious...
(I'm nowhere near a doctor...but is an abortion just a D&C?).
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I don't think she should tell her fiance and I don't think you should encourage her to do so.
She knows him and her situation better than you do and if she thinks this will ruin her reputation and her chance for a good marriage, she is (probably and unfortunately) right.
After all, you don't specify anything about her relationship with her fiance and this could be an arranged wedding.
While we all express our opinions and offer suggestions, it seems she's made her decision and she needs your help in implementing this decision, full stop. It's really nice of you to respect that and try to help her best you can.
I'm sorry I can't offer you any specific information, but I would try searching for a gynecologist on these forums (try searching the username debbie or google debbie at casual cairo and try emailing her...i think she knew a very good one who dealt with lots of expats).
Then call that gynecologist yourself from London and explain the situation. Perhaps the dr will be able to recommend someone for your friend.
Because if she asks around herself, it could backfire on her so she's looking for discretion.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: well for ur knowledge:
there are some women naturally born with no hymen at all still the husband know if she's virgin or not coz it's not just about some blood that stain the sheets
Zaykon: I have a friend who got divorced after two weeks bcz of this! He was her bf for 5 yrs! since she was 17 actually. He was-or seemed to be- an open minded well educated and well travelled man. Now, after a week he took her to the doctor the doctor said it's ok yr wife was born without it. The guy insisted that she bribed the doctor!!! and left her for a week and then came to reconcile. She filed for khol3 later bcz she couldnt stand the thought of living with a man who didn't trust her!
good for her , as he's not man enough to know the difference,even if he have doubts he should trust her.
she will have the one who deserve her inshalah.
Hehehehehe..guess what ? she married the doctor!!!!
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Melati: And wont it be like losing the viginity once more? I mean-for example if you were raped, this is not sex as per in a marital union, so its kind of like being a virgin when you first get married? Or does the girl want to feel REALLY like the first time? I mean its about her perception of herself?
First of all, from a religious point of view a raped woman has the right to "keep the info to herself" and if it does her good she can get this operation done. I got this info from dar el eftaa in Egypt. So im a 100% sure it's the right thing to do in that case if the woman wants it and it wouldnt be considered cheating.
second, from a scoial point of view..it still matters to many families and if the raped girl wants to feel socially eligible. She has every right. At the end of the day, she s already been humiliated once. No need for a social scene!
Third: i think in a way it does her good to feel it's her first time...even if it brings bad memories or whatever.
Hmmm..but that's a whole different story from the one in question. I do hope"urgent help required" finds an answer.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by dwgendy: One more thing. Virginity is a very important thing both for men and women, we as a middle eastern society appreciate and honer this very much, and it is just as foribben for men as for women. So for the sake of god, to all the men out there, if you are not a virgin, why on earth do u look down on women who are just like you?! it just happens (just happens) that women have something that might prove thier virginity. That doesn't mean that men should enjoy more rights than they are allowed to.
quote:Originally posted by ngeg: Hehehehehe..guess what ? she married the doctor!!!!
LOL. That's a great ending (or beginning). I hope her ex eats his heart out and gets a woman he deserves. Posts: 372 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Urgent says her friend was in love before and lost her virginity then. It's possible she may have thought she was to marry that man she lost her virginity to. We don't know her situation. I have to say on my standpoint that her virginity is irrelevant. It doesn't define her. There's much more to a person than basing it on soley her virginity.
Posts: 1063 | From: Oregon | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: I don't think she should tell her fiance and I don't think you should encourage her to do so.
She knows him and her situation better than you do and if she thinks this will ruin her reputation and her chance for a good marriage, she is (probably and unfortunately) right.
After all, you don't specify anything about her relationship with her fiance and this could be an arranged wedding.
While we all express our opinions and offer suggestions, it seems she's made her decision and she needs your help in implementing this decision, full stop. It's really nice of you to respect that and try to help her best you can.
I'm sorry I can't offer you any specific information, but I would try searching for a gynecologist on these forums (try searching the username debbie or google debbie at casual cairo and try emailing her...i think she knew a very good one who dealt with lots of expats).
Then call that gynecologist yourself from London and explain the situation. Perhaps the dr will be able to recommend someone for your friend.
Because if she asks around herself, it could backfire on her so she's looking for discretion.
I agree!
Most Egyptians wont accept it and those who wont mind at first will bring on the subject whenever a conflict arise between them after marriage, she will alwayes feel pressured about it unfortunatly, so let her keep it between herself and God untill the mind of Egyptian men change......hopefully!
Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Again, I have to insist that niehter me nor anyone els has the right to judge her or her actions. BUT, is this girl looking for Hymenoraphy a muslem? because if she is then we have a bit of a problem. I will explain why. In the islamic marrage contract, the waley (the representative of the bride) like the father, most of the time, who handels the marage process for her will have to recite the marital statment which states exactly: Zawagtoka ebnatee (Name) al balegh, al 3akel, al 3azra'a 3ala sonnat alla wa rasoleh PBOH translation: I marry you to my daughter (name) the grown up (had her menarch), the sane (not insane) and the virgine (or if she has been married before then he says the non virgin) as instructed by god and prophit mohamed PBOH.
So the marrage contract will contain a statement that she is virgine verbally and written. any contradiction beween any of the mentioned lines (like she is not his daughter, she adopted, or she is insane, or she hasn't started her menses or her state of virginity is differant from what is stated) then the contract is invalid and the marrage is not true. So it's a bit tricky though, unless the ma;ezoon avoids in his form mentioning the virginity part. And even then, I have no idea about the effect of that on the validity of the marrage contract.
Snoozin, Yes they do learn it, there arte many reasons where you have to make abortion to save the mothers life, so they do teach it. and yes, it is simply a D&C but it is a bit more dangerous becuase a pregnant uterus is softer than a non pregnant one, so the incidance of perforation is higher.
What I said here generally is to the best of my own knowledge, I am not an islamic shiekh or a mofty. So please, everyone, refer to better sources if you need to confirm.
quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: I don't think she should tell her fiance and I don't think you should encourage her to do so.
She knows him and her situation better than you do and if she thinks this will ruin her reputation and her chance for a good marriage, she is (probably and unfortunately) right.
After all, you don't specify anything about her relationship with her fiance and this could be an arranged wedding.
While we all express our opinions and offer suggestions, it seems she's made her decision and she needs your help in implementing this decision, full stop. It's really nice of you to respect that and try to help her best you can.
I'm sorry I can't offer you any specific information, but I would try searching for a gynecologist on these forums (try searching the username debbie or google debbie at casual cairo and try emailing her...i think she knew a very good one who dealt with lots of expats).
Then call that gynecologist yourself from London and explain the situation. Perhaps the dr will be able to recommend someone for your friend.
Because if she asks around herself, it could backfire on her so she's looking for discretion.
posted
Perhaps the couple are religious, and understand that she may have repented what she done [ you dont need to be religious to repent either[. That case there is no need to tell her....
quote:
Sixthly:
Beware of telling your husband about what happened, rather you should conceal it with the concealment of Allaah. If you tell him, it may lead to bad consequences. So leave this issue between you and Allaah, and repent to Him, may He be exalted. Ask Him for forgiveness and do a lot of good deeds; strive to get your husband to tell his family about your marriage, and ask him to stay with you so that he can help you to obey Allaah. Do not open any closed doors by telling him what happened, because there is no benefit in telling him, rather that may only lead to something that is not in your interests at all. source
quote: With regard to telling your husband about what has happened to you in the past, you do not have to do that once you have repented from it. You should cover yourself and not speak openly of something that you have done in the past. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “All of my ummah will be forgiven except those who commit sin blatantly. It is committing sin blatantly if a man does something at night, then in the morning when Allaah has concealed him, he says, ‘O So and so, I did such and such last night,’ when all night his Lord has concealed him, and he uncovers that which Allaah has concealed.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6069; Muslim, 2990. source
-------------------- -- here... [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0955020700/qid%3D1133898517/026-7853042-0414807= Recommended...![/url] Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tiger1225: Snoozin????????what kind of question is this?????
I ask because that (abortion) is a very controversial type of procedure done here, surrounded by religious and moral debate. So it seems to be somewhat akin to the procedure to repair the hymen. DWgendy said physicians are not supposed to know how to do that procedure because it is deemed criminal and amoral.
I was wondering how Egyptian physicians viewed abortion, that is all.
I was trying to relate the hymen repair surgery to something that I know to be politically sensitive. Abortion.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
quote:Originally posted by ngeg: it's a very simple day surgery. I have a friend who s a doctor and used to do it to raped girls for free. Many times I'd talk to the girls to check on them and they say it wasnt painful or complicated.
posted
One thing is for sure ... The worst thing she could do is have that operation done. I'd rather discover that i was lied to, rather than fooled.
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Exactly my point of view, Masrawi! I quote myself for that!
quote: Well, in my opinion, virginity doesn't represent a flesh of meat, but a state of mind. Once lost, forever lost and no doctor could fix that. I'm not judgemental here, only God had the right to judge us, but let's think a little. Ok, she made a mistake and she slept with a man, even she already knew that it was forbidden. She will anwer for that later. But why does she want to do another mistake, covering the true with a lie? She want to get married only for the hack of it, or she really love the man?. Because a man could forgive her for breaking his heart, but he will never forgive her for breaking his trust!
posted
The best thing is to be honest- tell that u know me - as I am. And I know who u are. I'm goin' to be with u ever after. And u with me.I felt in love with somebody else, I thought it's forever, perhaps u too in ur former relationship It didn't work. I can't apologise and feel sorrow. I stopped sth wrong. I'm happy I stopped and now find a man who I want to married. I feel u are this person.As u. I hope u will be honest not blaming yourself all ur life. It will take u energy to be with ur man. Wish u all the best
Posts: 810 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sadeeqy: Exactly my point of view, Masrawi! I quote myself for that!
quote: Well, in my opinion, virginity doesn't represent a flesh of meat, but a state of mind. Once lost, forever lost and no doctor could fix that. I'm not judgemental here, only God had the right to judge us, but let's think a little. Ok, she made a mistake and she slept with a man, even she already knew that it was forbidden. She will anwer for that later. But why does she want to do another mistake, covering the true with a lie? She want to get married only for the hack of it, or she really love the man?. Because a man could forgive her for breaking his heart, but he will never forgive her for breaking his trust!
Jut wanted to make sure the point came through from a guy's point of view.
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I discovered that Egyptians have some believes and truth built deeply in their minds. Is my perception true?
Posts: 810 | Registered: Aug 2005
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