i'd like to know from the egyptian muslims on this forum, if you have any coptic friends???
i'm asking that because i've noticed that my muslim friends in egypt have only muslim friends and they dont really like the copts. is this something general and why is that?
Posts: 271 | From: germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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One of my closest friends is Coptic. I used to spend long hours in her house when we were studying together and she even had a praying mat especially for me to pray when I had to , and she knew to which direction Mecca was.
Mary.. This is her name..
And many Egyptians are just like Mary and me.
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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i'd like to know from the egyptian muslims on this forum, if you have any coptic friends???
i'm asking that because i've noticed that my muslim friends in egypt have only muslim friends and they dont really like the copts. is this something general and why is that?
You don’t got the concept here, the majority her in Egypt are Muslims, and Christians are minority…they are like 10 % that's why! like I’m Muslim and my best friends are Muslims too, but I used to have Coptic friends during school time, also our neighbors are Coptic and we have a good relation, really to be more honest we are not close friends but still *friends…
Posts: 968 | From: www | Registered: Aug 2005
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hello saeeda,i think your idia about egyptians is wrong,i have a lot of coptic friends,i think you need to change your opinion . Posts: 35 | From: maadi | Registered: Jan 2006
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i'd like to know from the egyptian muslims on this forum, if you have any coptic friends???
i'm asking that because i've noticed that my muslim friends in egypt have only muslim friends and they dont really like the copts. is this something general and why is that?
Yes I do ..His name is Rezk and he is my best friend as a matter of fact ..he will be the first one to send me a post card for EID ..or any occasion ...he is quite a good human being ...
Posts: 2691 | Registered: Oct 2005
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my best friend from school is coptic.. we were inseperable!!! the only thing that is keeping us apart, is that she moved to Egypt for university and i moved to Canada... but we are still VERY CLOSE... a lot of my friends in canada are egyptian coptics too...
just like it was mentioned before, i think its just a matter of how many coptics are out there... less than a tenth of the egyptian population are christian (orthodox, armenian, catholic, protestant..) so its gonna be 1 out of every ten ppl is christian...ya no wat i mean?
the western media is just spreading propaganda as usual about how there are fights between the muslims and christians in egypt.. but that is not the case at all!! if u talk to REAL egyptians, they will tell u the exact opposite Posts: 36 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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the western media is just spreading propaganda as usual about how there are fights between the muslims and christians in egypt.. but that is not the case at all!! if u talk to REAL egyptians, they will tell u the exact opposite
Yeah, to the Coptic Christians I've talked they told me how difficult life is for them in Egypt, that they not get treated equally because of their faith f.e. they are not able to achieve a high position even with the right qualifications.
I do admit that muslims and coptic christians in general live peacefully together (clashes and murders although did happen in the past), I do mainly blame the Egyptian government for mistreating the interests and rights of the coptic christians.
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Summary of Findings This report finds that the religious freedom of Egypt's 6 to 10 million strong Coptic Christian community, while generally able to practice its religion, is threatened in varying degrees by terrorism from extreme Islamic groups, by the abusive practices of local police and security forces, and by discriminatory and restrictive Egyptian Government policies.
The cumulative effect of these threats creates an atmosphere of persecution and raises fears that during the 21st century the Copts may have a vastly diminished presence in their homeland. Each year thousands of Copts convert to Islam, many under pressure, and Christians have an emigration rate three to four times that of Muslims. Coptic church sources estimate that over a million Copts have left Egypt in the past thirty years. Even emigration motivated by the desire for greater economic opportunity or democratic freedoms is partially due to underlying religious concerns. Like the Egyptian Jewish community before them, Egyptian Christians are endangered by pressures for a further Islamization of Egypt in which they will be afforded little space.
Since Egypt is the major intellectual and cultural center in the Arab Islamic world, the fate of the Copts, by far the largest Christian community in the Middle East, is an indicator of the future of other religious minorities in the region. As the second largest recipient of U.S. aid, Egypt's treatment of the Copts holds interest for Americans of all religious backgrounds.
Freedom House's findings are that:
The Copts are persecuted by radical Islamic groups and at times by local police and other security officials and they are discriminated against and have their freedom to worship hampered by the Egyptian Government. Specifically:
1. While the Egyptian government does not have a policy to persecute Christians, it discriminates against them and hampers their freedom of worship, and its agencies sporadically persecute Muslim converts to Christianity. In particular:
The government of Egypt enforces onerous Hamayouni restrictions on building or repairing churches, restrictions that do not apply to mosques.
The Copts' ability to exercise their basic right to free worship is frustrated by Egypt's complex, and frequently arbitrary, requirements for building and repairing churches or church-owned buildings. These culminate in the requirement that the State President must personally approve all building applications, and the Provincial Governors must approve all applications for repairs, even for something as small as repairing a toilet or a broken window.
While the Government does approve some applications, numerous others are delayed for decades or are never acted upon, leaving tens of thousands of Copts with no place to worship. Some churches have collapsed before their application for permission to make repairs has been processed. In other cases, churches have gone ahead with building or repairs on the basis of an implied understanding with the government that permission will be forthcoming, only to have their premises closed off or completely razed.
The procedures required for Church construction and repair are in marked contrast to the procedures for mosques, which are comparatively simple and require no special government permission.
The government of Egypt applies religiously-discriminatory laws and practices concerning conversion, marriage, parenthood, education, and clergy salaries.
While Egypt has signed the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which guarantees religious freedom, Islam is the state religion and the Constitution states that Islamic law is the major source of legislation. Egypt is also under attack by terrorist groups who want to enforce an Islamic state; but perhaps the more significant pressure for Islamization comes from militant but ostensibly nonviolent Muslims, such as those in the now-banned Islamic Brotherhood. As a result of such pressure, the legal system is increasingly incorporating Islamic law: for example, there is now a de facto law of apostasy. Sharia law in Egypt denies equal rights to Christians and non-Muslims in areas of conversion, marriage, and parenting.
The history and language programs in the state-run education system marginalizes the role of the Copts in Egyptian history and culture.
Since Muslim converts to Christianity can change neither their religion nor their names on national identity cards, it is difficult for them to avoid identification and abuse. In addition, the children of someone who has embraced Christianity must be educated as Muslims and the convert may face compulsory divorce.
The government subsidizes the construction of mosques and pays the salaries of Islamic clerics, while making no similar provision for other churches or clergy. Buildings which contain an area used as a mosque are tax exempt in their entirety and receive free utilities: prerogatives which do not apply to churches. This reinforces a sense among many Copts that they are second class citizens.
The government of Egypt has effectively restricted Christians from senior government, political, military, or educational positions, and there is increasing discrimination in the private sector.
Copts are increasingly marginalized in the political system. There are currently six Christian members of the Assembly, none of whom is directly elected but are appointed by the President and are politically beholden to him.
Copts are also restricted in the upper levels of government. By custom, the following positions are occupied by Muslims: President, Prime Minister, Assistant Prime Minister, Minister of Defense, heads of the various branches of the Egyptian Armed Forces, Chairman of the People's Assembly, Governors (of 28 Governors, all are Muslims), heads of all government service offices, chiefs of police, and presidents and deans of universities. Copts are also under-represented in ambassadorships abroad.
The government of Egypt subsidizes media which attack Christianity and restricts Christians' access to the state-controlled media.
State-owned and state-controlled media allow Islamic preachers to engage in hate speech against Copts, while refusing Copts the chance to reply. This has contributed to increasing discrimination in everyday life and has helped to create an environment that can encourage terrorist violence.
The government of Egypt fails to take adequate measures to prevent the persecution and abuse of Copts at the local level, whether the perpetrators are terrorists, members of the community, or the government's own security forces.
Some terrorists have been arrested, prosecuted and convicted for attacks on Copts as well as on others; nevertheless, many Egyptian Christians say that police protection for them has been grossly inadequate. In areas of Upper Egypt, the police have a reputation of ignoring credible warnings of impending attacks against Christians, and arriving at the scene of anti-Christian violence long after the damage has been done. The Egyptian Government has shown greater concern for the security of tourists than its own citizen Copts.
The government seems to want to avoid alienating non-violent but radically Islamic elements of public opinion by taking overt steps to improve the situation of Copts. Hence, Copts become victims of the government's carrot and stick approach to the militants. This contributes to an atmosphere that has encouraged societal persecution and discrimination against Christians.
2. Police at the local level frequently harass and sometimes even persecute Christians, particularly converts, either out of sympathy with or fear of Islamic radicals. In several instances local police have been complicit in the coercive conversion of Coptic girls.
While Egypt has no explicit law against apostasy, the influence of sharia law on the civil code is creating a de facto law. Converts from Islam to Christianity have been imprisoned and tortured by the police and charged with "insulting religion" or "disrupting national unity." In recent years, the security forces have tended not to deal with converts directly but to inform their families or others in the area, who have in turn mistreated and even killed the convert with impunity.
Religious conversion in Egypt is always intimately tied to marriage and family questions, including the shame felt by a family if a relative converts. Consequently, many of the stories of the abduction of Coptic girls by Muslims are probably cases of elopement to avoid family pressures or are a face-saving measure for the family. Nevertheless there are reliable reports that, often with police complicity, young, including underage, Coptic girls have been manipulated, or occasionally physically coerced, into conversion and marriage.
3. Islamist terrorists persecute and intimidate Copts by extortion, assault, and sometimes massacre, especially in the Christian areas of Upper Egypt.
While Islamic terrorists attack security forces, tourists, and the majority moderate Muslims, Copts are their major, Egyptian, civilian target. Terrorists have also imposed an extortionate jizya "tax" on thousands of Copts, primarily in Upper Egypt. Inadequate police protection and corrupt local police compound the Copts' plight.
It is difficult to establish the precise nature of human rights problems facing Copts in Egypt because there are many conflicting accounts. In fact, one of the most striking features of Egypt is the degree to which people will in public (or for attribution) deny and contradict what they say in private. Some reasons for this include different meanings attached to the words "persecution" and "minority," confusion about whether claims of persecution necessarily implicate government and religious leaders, whether only elite sources are consulted, and the suspicion many Copts have about outside groups.
In addition, any report from Egypt on the question of religious persecution must be done with the knowledge that people who say that there is persecution can put themselves in real danger, either from terrorists or abusive local officials, or be liable under the law for possible capital offences. Any public statement must be judged against the knowledge that the speaker lives in a situation where it is illegal and can invite harsh punishment to "damage" "national unity or social peace," incite "sectarian strife," or, in the case of clergy, "insult or criticise" "an act by the administration." Recently, the Government used these laws to suppress clergy and human rights workers who have publicized the mass arrests and torture that took place in the village of el-Kosheh in 1998.
The Copts are not the only ones in Egypt deprived of their basic human rights. Egypt has an authoritarian government with few democratic restraints and its elections exhibit widespread irregularities. Under an emergency law in force since 1981, the State restricts basic freedoms and maintains several large security forces that often act brutally, especially in their campaign against terrorism. On a scale of one to seven (with seven being the worst) Freedom House's annual survey Freedom in the World ranks Egypt a six in political rights and a six in civil liberties.
posted
My friend is coptic from cairo, and he is adamant that there is discrimination.He applied for residency here on that premise AND got it straight away-which in itself is highly unusual.I think its because his hearing convener was chinese indonesian-they often dislike muslims too if they are from a certain generation....( he was on a sports team that dropped him and he says its because he was not willing to convert to islam). He is mortally afraid of the muslim brotherhood, and is convinced they will tear down doors and kill copts if they are in power..but let me say that the very first thing he did after getting his australian passport was head straight back to egypt for a holiday and see family. So it was a loose interpretation of refugee as far as I personly judge it.But you know, its ok. I must say though, that he is more "traditional" and maybe even" close minded" than another egyptian I met who was muslim,maybe the soci-economic background rather than the religion is the difference -I dont know.The muslim Cairene female I had the pleasure of meeting is the TOTAL opposite to the way he described his compatriots.So I think his own background and thinking must be very limited in scope-even though he has travelled quite a lot.
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: I do admit that muslims and coptic christians in general live peacefully together (clashes and murders although did happen in the past), I do mainly blame the Egyptian government for mistreating the interests and rights of the coptic christians.
Hi Tigerlily!
The Egyptian government mistreats all its citizens (apart from those that serve their own cause)!!! If you look at the way they treat Muslims, the poor, the opposition too, you could draw up a list of abuses just as long!
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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wow, thanks guys, that's really good news!!!!
i was quite worried cos some egyptian had told me that the relations between copts and muslims in general isn't good because (thats what he told me) most of the copts don't like the muslims and are quite rude, for example he said they refuse to say "wa leikum as-salam" when they are greeted.
its good to hear that this is just fairytails...!!!
Posts: 271 | From: germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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i'd like to know from the egyptian muslims on this forum, if you have any coptic friends???
...and why is that?
You don’t got the concept here, the majority her in Egypt are Muslims, and Christians are minority…they are like 10 % that's why!
Huh? The last population report I checked said 15.2% officially, and 20+ in reality!! Updates, just for the record yaani.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ymmmi: i juste her today something that i need to ask u here. Is it true that egypt onmce a long time ago was all christians?
Yes.. Most of the people I would say. There were also Jews and other affiliations.
But I'm not an anthropologist nor a historian.
Maybe you should start a thread in the other section about Ancient Egyptian History.
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by saeeda: for example he said they refuse to say "wa leikum as-salam" when they are greeted.
its good to hear that this is just fairytails...!!!
I believe some Moslims intentionally want to annoy Chrisitians by saying Salam Alaikum to them as a political statement of: Hey this is an islamic country, so we'll apply the Islamic rules even in greeting you.
And that might piss some Coptics off.
Some "Moslims"also pronounce it like : Samu alaikum without the L, which means death upon you.
And I would be pissed off if I were a coptic person!
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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That's an interesting question! Actually, my muslim friends all tell me how much they love their Coptic friends, that religion isn't an issue at all in Egypt, when we are all together. Then, when I'm alone with my Coptic friends, these ones tell me Muslim keep treating them as second zone citizens, that in the countryside, they are persecuted (I have friends living in the USA who are Coptic, and the whole family has indeed left Egypt for this reason). When I was living in Egypt, I even had a doctor who kept telling me how bad where the Muslims, how bad they treated their 4 wives... Then my Muslim friends say that the Coptic don't like them, that they are strange people, who don't like to mix with them... In the countryside, I think problems are quite important, but in Cairo, people prefer saying everything is ok. While it's not, but I think it's more a human problem: people are afraid of what they don't know.
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by saeeda: wow, thanks guys, that's really good news!!!!
i was quite worried cos some egyptian had told me that the relations between copts and muslims in general isn't good because (thats what he told me) most of the copts don't like the muslims and are quite rude, for example he said they refuse to say "wa leikum as-salam" when they are greeted.
posted
In general; the relationship between both is good. By nature, Egyptians, whether they are Moslems or Christians are very kind and peaceful people, and they like to live in harmony. The issue is; there are a large percentage of ignorant fanatics who take their orders from an ignorant Cleric who preaches hate and division in the name of Allah in order to keep these attacks on the Copts and their churches going. This creates the division. As far as discrimination, it all depends on whom you ask. If you ask a Moslem, he will say, no, we live in perfect harmony, and things are rosy. If you ask a Christian, he will tell you" ask the large number of Copts who live abroad why they left, the facts are many, and documented in the UN”. As far as the government, I don't think they give a **** about human rights whether you are a Moslem or Christian, but, if there a dispute between the two, we all know they will side with the majority. I spent many years in Egypt when I was young attending school till college, and I tell you, most of my dearest friends were Moslems, and they were the most loyal, wonderful friends I ever had, and I miss them everyday, but, knowing where I was going to be tomorrow made me leave a country I dearly love, and will always love till I die. I am going to tell you a fact, you may be ale to strip an Egyptian from his rights, but, you will never, ever, strip his love to the land of the Nile. May God bless Egypt, its people, and give it peace and harmony.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari: Some "Moslims"also pronounce it like : Samu alaikum without the L, which means death upon you.
whaaaaaaaaat???????????????
Please let me explain this a bit more..
*Many* people say Samu Alaikum (mainly the non-educated) because it's a slang or just easier to pronounce..
But some would really mean it when they say it.. Especially after some religious leadres drew people's attention to this pronunciation blooper.
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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There were four other Egyptians in my high school in Maryland, two of whom were Copts. I was in debate club with one of the Coptic girls and we were friendly, although I could sense tension when our fathers met. Her dad drove me home once after a debate and it seemed like the girl had to keep reminding him that I was Catholic (even if my father was Muslim), just so he would be civil to me.
My understanding (and it's entirely possible that I'm wrong) is that a large part of the backlash against the Coptic Christians in Egypt was that they had a monopoly on the medical schools and a large part of the government prior to Nasser's rise to power. Of course, that doesn't justify any violation of their human rights, but I suppose it serves as a basis for underlying resentment.
Whenever Mubarak comes to DC, some Coptic coalition takes out a giant ad in The Washington Post condemning him and the treatment of Copts. I wonder how bad it actually is, given that my father grew up in a heavily Coptic area, that was also quite wealthy.
As for Egypt being a Christian country before the Arabs invaded - it's not like the people were originally Christian. They were forcibly converted to Christianity, just as some were forcibly converted to Islam later. Organized religion...whaddayagonnado.
-------------------- Dip it. Pop it. T'work it. Stop it. Posts: 38 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2006
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They were forcibly converted to Christianity, just as some were forcibly converted to Islam later. Organized religion...whaddayagonnado.
Zohny: where did you get this from. The Christians in Egypt never adopted christianity by force, this is not even what christianity is about. The fact is; the Arabs forced Isalm on the Copts "pay the tax, or convert to Isalm, or die". It's all in the history books.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Watchdog33: Zohny: where did you get this from. The Christians in Egypt never adopted christianity by force, this is not even what christianity is about. The fact is; the Arabs forced Isalm on the Copts "pay the tax, or convert to Isalm, or die". It's all in the history books.
This is not what Christian is all about?? and u think this is what Islam is about?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Islam is a derivative of the word Salam which means PEACE. for someone to be killed if they hadent converted to Islam or payed their taxes was not even an option watchdog. i think u ought to go and revise true history and quit making things up, cuz its making u sound ridiculous! and it is ISLAM NOT ISALM !! pffffftttttttt!!!
Posts: 36 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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BoDooR: I did not want to go there, but, here is a little education for you instead of your hateful, angry comments, it might help you a little despite my doubt:
For the four centuries that followed the Arab's conquest of Egypt, the Coptic Church generally flourished and Egypt remained basically Christian. This is due to a large extent to the fortunate position that the Copts enjoyed, for the Prophet of Islam, who had an Egyptian wife (the only one of his wives to bear a child), preached especial kindness towards Copts: "When you conquer Egypt, be kind to the Copts for they are your proteges and kith and kin". Copts, thus, were allowed to freely practice their religion and were to a large degree autonomous, provided they continued to pay a special tax, called "Gezya", that qualifies them as "Ahl Zemma" proteges (protected). Individuals who cannot afford to pay this tax were faced with the choice of either converting to Islam or losing their civil right to be "protected", which in some instances meant being killed. Copts, despite additional sumptuary laws that were imposed on them in 750-868 A.D. and 905-935 A.D. under the Abbasid Dynasties, prospered and their Church enjoyed one of its most peaceful era. Surviving literature from monastic centers, dating back from the 8th to the 11th century, shows no drastic break in the activities of Coptic craftsmen, such as weavers, leather-binders, painters, and wood-workers. Throughout that period, the Coptic language remained the language of the land, and it was not until the second half of the 11th century that the first bi-lingual Coptic-Arabic liturgical manuscripts started to appear. One of the first complete Arabic texts is the 13th century text by Awlaad El-Assal (children of the Honey Maker), in which the laws, cultural norms and traditions of the Copts at this pivotal time, 500 years after the Islamic conquest of Egypt were detailed. The adoption of the Arabic language as the language used in Egyptians' every-day's life was so slow that even in the 15th century al-Makrizi implied that the Coptic Language was still largely in use. Up to this day, the Coptic Language continues to be the liturgical language of the Church.
The Christian face of Egypt started to change by the beginning of the second millennium A.D., when Copts, in addition to the "Gezya" tax, suffered from specific disabilities, some of which were serious and interfered with their freedom of worship. For example, there were restrictions on repairing old Churches and building new ones, on testifying in court, on public behavior, on adoption, on inheritance, on public religious activities, and on dress codes. Slowly but steadily, by the end of the 12th century, the face of Egypt changed from a predominantly Christian to a predominantly Muslim country and the Coptic community occupied an inferior position and lived in some expectation of Muslim hostility, which periodically flared into violence. It is remarkable that the well-being of Copts was more or less related to the well-being of their rulers. In particular, the Copts suffered most in those periods when Arab dynasties were at their low.
The position of the Copts began to improve early in the 19th century under the stability and tolerance of Muhammad Ali's dynasty. The Coptic community ceased to be regarded by the state as an administrative unit and, by 1855 A.D., the main mark of Copts' inferiority, the "Gezya" tax was lifted, and shortly thereafter Copts started to serve in the Egyptian army. The 1919 A.D. revolution in Egypt, the first grassroots dispaly of Egyptian identity in centuries, stands as a witness to the homogeneity of Egypt's modern society with both its Muslim and Coptic sects. Today, this homogeneity is what keeps the Egyptian society united against the religious intolerance of extremist groups, who occasionaly subject the Copts to persecution and terror. Modern day martyrs, like Father Marcos Khalil, serve as reminders of the miracle of Coptic survival.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:The Christians in Egypt never adopted christianity by force, this is not even what christianity is about.
Um, actually it is. Heard of missionaries? Heard of the crusades? That's the mechanism by which Christianity spread throughout the world. I'm Catholic and I can admit that, but we have to accept that's how it happened. That's the way of organized religion.
-------------------- Dip it. Pop it. T'work it. Stop it. Posts: 38 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2006
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Ok Mr. Zohny, we are talking here about Egypt and the Copts to be specific. Here is a little history lesson for you too, you guys need to read this stuff instead of watching crap on TV and listining to ignorant teachers. Hope this clears up things, it's very interesting stuff. By the way, my wife is Catholic, so I love you too :-). Thanks
The Coptic Church is based on the teachings of Saint Mark who brought Christianity to Egypt during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero in the first century, a dozen of years after the Lord's ascension. He was one of the four evangelists and the one who wrote the oldest canonical gospel. Christianity spread throughout Egypt within half a century of Saint Mark's arrival in Alexandria as is clear from the New Testament writings found in Bahnasa, in Middle Egypt, which date around the year 200 A.D., and a fragment of the Gospel of Saint John, written using the Coptic language, which was found in Upper Egypt and can be dated to the first half of the second century. The Coptic Church, which is now more than nineteen centuries old, was the subject of many prophecies in the Old Testament. Isaiah the prophet, in Chapter 19, Verse 19 says "In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border."
Although fully integrated into the body of the modern Egyptian nation, the Copts have survived as a strong religious entity who pride themselves on their contribution to the Christian world. The Coptic church regards itself as a strong defendant of Christian faith. The Nicene Creed, which is recited in all churches throughout the world, has been authored by one of its favorite sons, Saint Athanasius, the Pope of Alexandria for 46 years, from 327 A.D. to 373 A.D. This status is well deserved, afterall, Egypt was the refuge that the Holy Family sought in its flight from Judea: "When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son" [Mathew 2:12-23].
The contributions of the Coptic Church to Christendom are many. From the beginning, it played a central role in Christian theology---and especially to protect it from the Gnostics heresies. The Coptic Church produced thousands of texts, biblical and theological studies which are important resources for archeology. The Holy Bible was translated to the Coptic language in the second century. Hundreds of scribes used to write copies of the Bible and other liturgical and theological books. Now libraries, museums and universities throughout the world possess hundreds and thousands of Coptic manuscripts.
The Catechetical School of Alexandria is the oldest Catechetical School in the world. Soon after its inception around 190 A.D. by the Christian scholar Pantanaeus, the school of Alexandria became the most important institution of religious learning in Christendom. Many prominent bishops from many areas of the world were instructed in that school under scholars such as Athenagoras, Clement, Didymus, and the great Origen, who was considered the father of theology and who was also active in the field of commentary and comparative Biblical studies. Origen wrote over 6,000 commentaries of the Bible in addition to his famous Hexapla. Many scholars such as Saint Jerome visited the school of Alexandria to exchange ideas and to communicate directly with its scholars. The scope of the school of Alexandria was not limited to theological subjects, because science, mathematics and the humanities were also taught there: The question and answer method of commentary began there, and 15 centuries before Braille, wood-carving techniques were in use there by blind scholars to read and write. The Theological college of the Catechetical School of Alexandria was re-established in 1893. Today, it has campuses in Alexandria, Cairo, New Jersey, and Los Angeles, where priests-to-be and other qualified men and women are taught among other subjects Christian theology, history, Coptic language and art---including chanting, music, iconography, tapestry etc.
Monasticism was born in Egypt and was instrumental in the formation of the Coptic Church's character of submission and humbleness, thanks to the teachings and writings of the Great Fathers of Egypt's Deserts. Monasticism started in the last years of the third century and flourished in the fourth century. Saint Anthony, the world's first Christian monk was a Copt from Upper Egypt. Saint Pachom, who established the rules of monasticism, was a Copt. And, Saint Paul, the world's first anchorite is also a Copt. Other famous Coptic desert fathers include Saint Makarios, Saint Moses the Black, and Saint Mina the wonderous. The more contemporary desert fathers include the late Pope Cyril VI and his disciple Bishop Mina Abba Mina. By the end of the fourth century, there were hundreds of monasteries, and thousands of cells and caves scattered throughout the Egyptian hills. Many of these monasteries are still flourishing and have new vocations till this day. All Christian monasticism stems, either directly or indirectly, from the Egyptian example: Saint Basil, organiser of the monastic movement in Asia minor visited Egypt around 357 A.D. and his rule is followed by the eastern Churches; Saint Jerome, who translated the Bible into Latin, came to Egypt around 400 A.D. and left details of his experiences in his letters; Saint Benedict founded monasteries in the sixth century on the model of Saint Pachom, but in a stricter form. And countless pilgrims visited the "Desert Fathers" and emulated their spiritual, disciplined lives. There is even evidence that Copts had missionaries to Nothern Europe. One example is Saint Moritz of the Theban Legion who was drafted from Egypt to serve under the Roman flag and ended up teaching Christianity to inhabitants of the Swiss Alps, where a small town and a Monastery that contains his relics as well as some of his books and belongings are named after him. Another saint from the Theban Legion is Saint Victor, known among Copts as "Boktor".
Under the authority of the Eastern Roman Empire of Constantinople (as opposed to the western empire of Rome), the Patriarchs and Popes of Alexandria played leading roles in Christian theology. They were invited everywhere to speak about the Christian faith. Saint Cyril, Pope of Alexandria, was the head of the Ecumenical Council which was held in Ephesus in the year 430 A.D. It was said that the bishops of the Church of Alexandria did nothing but spend all their time in meetings. This leading role, however, did not fare well when politics started to intermingle with Church affairs. It all started when the Emperor Marcianus interfered with matters of faith in the Church. The response of Saint Dioscorus, the Pope of Alexandria who was later exiled, to this interference was clear: "You have nothing to do with the Church." These political motives became even more apparent in Chalcedon in 451, when the Coptic Church was unfairly accused of following the teachings of Eutyches, who believed in monophysitism. This doctrine maintains that the Lord Jesus Christ has only one nature, the divine, not two natures, the human as well as the divine.
The Coptic Church has never believed in monophysitism the way it was portrayed in the Council of Chalcedon! In that Council, monophysitism meant believing in one nature. Copts believe that the Lord is perfect in His divinity, and He is perfect in His humanity, but His divinity and His humanity were united in one nature called "the nature of the incarnate word", which was reiterated by Saint Cyril of Alexandria. Copts, thus, believe in two natures "human" and "divine" that are united in one "without mingling, without confusion, and without alteration" (from the declaration of faith at the end of the Coptic divine liturgy). These two natures "did not separate for a moment or the twinkling of an eye" (also from the declaration of faith at the end of the Coptic divine liturgy).
The Coptic Church was misunderstood in the 5th century at the Council of Chalcedon. Perhaps the Council understood the Church correctly, but they wanted to exile the Church, to isolate it and to abolish the Egyptian, independent Pope, who maintained that Church and State should be separate. Despite all of this, the Coptic Church has remained very strict and steadfast in its faith. Whether it was a conspiracy from the Western Churches to exile the Coptic Church as a punishment for its refusal to be politically influenced, or whether Pope Dioscurus didn't quite go the extra mile to make the point that Copts are not monophysite, the Coptic Church has always felt a mandate to reconcile "semantic" differences between all Christian Churches. This is aptly expressed by the current 117th successor of Saint Mark, Pope Shenouda III: "To the Coptic Church, faith is more important than anything, and others must know that semantics and terminology are of little importance to us." Throughout this century, the Coptic Church has played an important role in the ecumenical movement. The Coptic Church is one of the founders of the World Council of Churches. It has remained a member of that council since 1948 A.D. The Coptic Church is a member of the all African Council of Churches (AACC) and the Middle East Council of Churches (MECC). The Church plays an important role in the Christian movement by conducting dialogues aiming at resolving the theological differences with the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, and Evangelical Churches.
Perhaps the greatest glory of the Coptic Church is its Cross. Copts take pride in the persecution they have sustained as early as May 8, 68 A.D., when their Patron Saint Mark was slain on Easter Monday after being dragged from his feet by Roman soldiers all over Alexandria's streets and alleys. The Copts have been persecuted by almost every ruler of Egypt. Their Clergymen have been tortured and exiled even by their Christian brothers after the schism of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. and until the Arab's conquest of Egypt in 641 A.D. To emphasize their pride in their cross, Copts adopted a calendar, called the Calendar of the Martyrs, which begins its era on August 29, 284 A.D., in commemoration of those who died for their faith during the rule of Diocletian the Roman Emperor. This calendar is still in use all over Egypt by farmers to keep track of the various agricultural seasons and in the Coptic Church Lectionary.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I would like to know how come there were so many Egyptians ready to become Christians. Was it by force? In the book a Dutch Egyptian wrote about this subject, they simply state that most of the Christian dogma's in fact are Egyptian. There was monotheisme in the 14th century BC (Aman-Ra). The holy trinity originates from Osiris, Isis and Horus. Osiris was a man who became a God and won over Satan by rising alife after being killed. Baptism was known, as was the cross 'Ankh'. Fasting the way coptics do was usual. Monasteries originate from Egypt. The idea that a king lives as a shepherd among his sheep was hold as early as the Middle Kingdom, and more. Seclusion in the desert for spiritual reasons is. I would like to know how christianity came about in Egypt, since they were among the first nations to believe and still do hold very old christian and pre-christian (also Jewish) traditions.
posted
There are a lot of stories where saints were oppressed by the Romans for becoming Christians, They became saints being martyrs. How did the Roman empire become Christian? How did the Greek? It had something to do with entire armies becoming Christian or with soldiers taking their new faith back home. But what was so persuasive about it? Was it violence? What else?
posted
There was severe discriminations among catholics, jews and protestants not so long ago in the west too. One could attend school, play over at neighbours, with one another most of the time (except for some really strict families) but at the same time in church one would severly question the dogma's and humanity of the others. Catholics or protestants would not be hired in dominant regions of the other type, and Jews were as secluded as that they needed to have their own businesses, what got them wealthy sometimes, what again raised the envie of the others. Marriage out of you're faith was not-done since 'the devil would sleep inbetween the couple'. It did happen, but was not at all recommended. Nothing new in humans. We had WW2, now it is radical political Islam, regional conflicts like in Darfur or Kosovo, the impossibility to resolve the conflict in Israel/Palestine, that are enhancing escalating conflicts between different groups. Faces change, nature does not.
quote:They were forcibly converted to Christianity, just as some were forcibly converted to Islam later. Organized religion...whaddayagonnado.
Zohny: where did you get this from. The Christians in Egypt never adopted christianity by force, this is not even what christianity is about. The fact is; the Arabs forced Isalm on the Copts "pay the tax, or convert to Isalm, or die". It's all in the history books
quote:I would like to know how come there were so many Egyptians ready to become Christians. Was it by force? In the book a Dutch Egyptian wrote about this subject, they simply state that most of the Christian dogma's in fact are Egyptian. There was monotheisme in the 14th century BC (Aman-Ra). The holy trinity originates from Osiris, Isis and Horus. Osiris was a man who became a God and won over Satan by rising alife after being killed. Baptism was known, as was the cross 'Ankh'. Fasting the way coptics do was usual. Monasteries originate from Egypt. The idea that a king lives as a shepherd among his sheep was hold as early as the Middle Kingdom, and more. Seclusion in the desert for spiritual reasons is. I would like to know how christianity came about in Egypt, since they were among the first nations to believe and still do hold very old christian and pre-christian (also Jewish) traditions.
Demiana
Actually, Zohny is correct about Christianity being forced on the population just like Islam was. Both Abrahamic faiths were regardless of how much romantization that Coptic and Muslims give it. I have personally read how monastic monks would go across Egypt murder and terrorize temples and destroy ancient Egyptian relics. Much of the reason that ancient Egyptian sculpture and other relics are shown all bashed in is because of the early Christisans in Egypt.
Read the Life of Shenute by Besa and you will see the strong arm tactics of the early Coptic monks. Most of the early converts to Christianity all were in Hellnized areas like Alexandria,Faiyum,or other areas where a heavy Jewish and Greek population lived. It was not untill a very late period that Christianity came into parts like Southern Upper Egypt. It was only untill around 500 A.D. that the temple was finally closed by Justinian of the Byzantine.
No romantization of the Coptic tradition just historical facts.
Know I will agree that under Amr Ibn Alas that Arabs came to Egypt with sinister intentions. You can still not prove the majority of Egyptians were Christians at this point. Most were adhering to ancient traditions left over from ancient Egyptian times that still continue today under both Christianity and Islam.
Coptics will claim that Muslims in Egypt are Arab invaders but the truth is Most Muslims in the rural countryside[with the exception of the eastern Delta] are direct desendants of the ancient Egyptians also. While it might be true some mixing with Arabs did occur,Copts also mixed with foreigners like Greeks,Armenians,Syrians and other groups. All the groups mentioned later lived in the same monestaries with the Copts.
During the Roman era Jews and Syrians were numerous in the large cities. Some had assimilated into the Egyptian population. Armenians soon followed in large numbers during the Islamic era and settled in large numbers. Not to mention that also under Amr Ibn Alas were Christian Arab tribes that did intermarry with the local population.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Seclusion in the desert for spiritual reasons is
I heard this but never saw any references to it during ancient Egyptian times. Do you have any reference for this? I am curious about this pratice.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Now I found on the Internet on seeking spirituality in the desert. Also references of course to visiting shrines or oracles in the desert.
door Geraldine Pinch - Body, Mind & Spirit - 1994 - 191 pagina’s Pagina 170 - MAGIC IN ANC:IENT EGYPT Egyptian priests were renowned throughout the classical ... Many monks retreated to the desert which they, like earlier Egyptians, ...
Iamblichus was the chief representative of Syrian Neoplatonism, though his influence spread over much of the ancient world. The events of his life and the details of his creed are very imperfectly known, but the main tenets of his belief can be worked out from extant writings. We learn from the Suda, and from his biographer Eunapius, that he was born at Chalcis (modern Quinnesrin) in Syria. He was the son of a rich and illustrious family, and he is said to have been the ancestor of several priest-kings of Emesa. He initially studied under Anatolius, and later went on to study under Porphyry, a pupil of Plotinus, the founder of Neoplatonism. It was with Porphyry that he is known to have had a disagreement over the practice of theurgy, the criticisms of which Iamblichus responds to in his attributed De Mysteriis Aegyptiorum (On the Egyptian Mysteries).
I am indeed not aware of references, as my coptic information is mostly of non-refereed sources/churchinfo.
posted
Oh my my my... watch"DOG" i think ur trying too hard, but its a whole load of "stuff" that aint making sense... should i consider u one of the "ignorant" teachers as u like to call them? what makes u think that i will listen to you and believe anything that u say?
if u look closely at my first reply to ur previous post, you will find out that i only commented on Zohny: where did you get this from. The Christians in Egypt never adopted christianity by force, ***this is not even what christianity is about.*** The fact is; the Arabs forced Isalm on the Copts "pay the tax, or convert to Isalm, or die". It's all in the history books.
ur saying that christianity is not at all about forcing ppl into it, but Islam is.
So when the christian missionaries go to a 15 yr old african muslim who can't find clean water to drink and say "u either convert to christianity or i'll leave u here to starve to death" they wouldnt ofcourse have the intentions of forcing ppl into christianity?!!
If u wanna know what Christianity is all about, look at what Prophet Jesus (PBUH) said and did, and if u wanna know about true Islam, look at what Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) said and did, same with Judaism and Prophet Moses (PBUH)
Posts: 36 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Well I thought I'd put my input to this topic. I am muslim. My mother is coptic. I have 3 brother's, 1 is muslim and 2 are coptic. So that makes my mum's side coptic and my father's side muslim, as for my friends, I think I have more coptic than I do muslims. I have been living here in Egypt for 3 years, previously I was born and raised in Australia. hen I first came here, I volunteered to help the poor and from what I discovered, that both religions were forced in some way. The coptics would go to poor areas where people had no food and would say "we will bring food for you every month if you convert to coptic" muslims would then find out about these areas and go there and tell repeat the same thing but if they become muslims. I found it a bit strange, since these people were poor and uneducated and didn't know the difference between muslim and coptic. But this is life, as long as they're getting food and clothing :-) Otherwise, muslims and coptics get along great from what I see. Take Care all :0
Posts: 12 | From: Maadi | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: Well I thought I'd put my input to this topic. I am muslim. My mother is coptic. I have 3 brother's, 1 is muslim and 2 are coptic. So that makes my mum's side coptic and my father's side muslim, as for my friends, I think I have more coptic than I do muslims. I have been living here in Egypt for 3 years, previously I was born and raised in Australia. hen I first came here, I volunteered to help the poor and from what I discovered, that both religions were forced in some way. The coptics would go to poor areas where people had no food and would say "we will bring food for you every month if you convert to coptic" muslims would then find out about these areas and go there and tell repeat the same thing but if they become muslims. I found it a bit strange, since these people were poor and uneducated and didn't know the difference between muslim and coptic. But this is life, as long as they're getting food and clothing :-) Otherwise, muslims and coptics get along great from what I see. Take Care all :0
This sounds like a contrived story to me. Coptic Christians will never let their daughter marry a Muslim because their children will become a Muslim and loose the Coptic faith.
Many of the poor areas like Boulaq,Imbaba,and various other places around Cairo have both Coptic and Muslims living side by side. My family is from these area and I have never known any Coptics or Islamic leaders trying to forcefully convert residents. I am sure in the past such occurances have happened but not recently.
Many of the people in these areas are illiterate but they listen to Quran through recitation of tape.
We are simply talking about the history of Coptic Christianity in Egypt wheather it was peaceful transition or a violent one. My sources show a violent transition,and that regardless these new Christian converts clung tightly to older ancient Egyptian traditions that can be seen amongst both Muslim and Coptic Christians living in rural areas and baladi areas in the cities.
Also the Coptic language was spoken in Middle and Upper Egypt untill the early 17th century. Arabic writers like al-Maqrizi record this. Much of the Egyptian colloquial Arabic has both ancient Egyptian and Coptic words.
The only thing I dislike is that many Coptic expats will complain to right-wing Christian fundamentalist about opressive treatment. Many will fabricate non-sense saying most Egyptian Muslims are Arab invaders. Discrimination does exist but it exist really for all Egyptians no matter Coptic or Islamic. Imagine rural fallahin being rounded up by the police routinely and beaten.
Otherwise where I am from Copts and Muslims tend to get along just fine. Muslims go to Coptic moulids and Coptics go to Muslim moulids. Often times the Muslims will seek out a Coptic priest to bless him. This is within rural areas.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Now I found on the Internet on seeking spirituality in the desert. Also references of course to visiting shrines or oracles in the desert.
door Geraldine Pinch - Body, Mind & Spirit - 1994 - 191 pagina?s Pagina 170 - MAGIC IN ANC:IENT EGYPT Egyptian priests were renowned throughout the classical ... Many monks retreated to the desert which they, like earlier Egyptians, ...
Iamblichus was the chief representative of Syrian Neoplatonism, though his influence spread over much of the ancient world. The events of his life and the details of his creed are very imperfectly known, but the main tenets of his belief can be worked out from extant writings. We learn from the Suda, and from his biographer Eunapius, that he was born at Chalcis (modern Quinnesrin) in Syria. He was the son of a rich and illustrious family, and he is said to have been the ancestor of several priest-kings of Emesa. He initially studied under Anatolius, and later went on to study under Porphyry, a pupil of Plotinus, the founder of Neoplatonism. It was with Porphyry that he is known to have had a disagreement over the practice of theurgy, the criticisms of which Iamblichus responds to in his attributed De Mysteriis Aegyptiorum (On the Egyptian Mysteries).
I am indeed not aware of references, as my coptic information is mostly of non-refereed sources/churchinfo.
Demiana
Thanks Demiana. I actually heard this mentioned before by a certain Egyptologist I contacted[I will not mention their names]. Its plausible though that such a insitution existed in ancient Egypt.
One of my interests is documenting the survival of ancient Egyptian pratices amongst both Copts and Muslims in modern Egypt. Despite Islam and Christianity I have discovered many do survive.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: This sounds like a contrived story to me. Coptic Christians will never let their daughter marry a Muslim because their children will become a Muslim and loose the Coptic faith.
it happens actually ausar, its just a rare thing. muslim families wont let their daughter marry anyone but a muslim man too, but havent u heard of the muslim gurls who married christains and even jews?
things like that happen a lot, and muslims/christians going up to poor ppl and forcing them indirectly into their religion still happens, its not a thing of the past, its still in our present, and will carry on for the near future at least.
Posts: 36 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: This sounds like a contrived story to me. Coptic Christians will never let their daughter marry a Muslim because their children will become a Muslim and loose the Coptic faith. it happens actually ausar, its just a rare thing. muslim families wont let their daughter marry anyone but a muslim man too, but havent u heard of the muslim gurls who married christains and even jews?
things like that happen a lot, and muslims/christians going up to poor ppl and forcing them indirectly into their religion still happens, its not a thing of the past, its still in our present, and will carry on for the near future at least
I am sure there are isolated incidents but I have never personally heard of them. Lots of Coptic women in the past have converted to Islam to escape marriages but never directly heard of Christian females marrying Muslims. Usually Coptics will disown them and they will no longer be considered Coptic Christians.
Honestly,I have never heard of Muslim women marrying Christian or Jewish males. Islamic authorities I have talked to have told me that Muslim females cannot marry Christian or Jewish males. Do you know of any examples in Egypt or anywhere else? Is this a misconception?
The forecful conversions probably occur but neither I nor has any of my family seen it where they live. There are districts scattered all over working class areas that are Coptic such as Shubra and other areas.
And if Muslim leaders are forcing people to convert its wrong. The same with Christian leaders.
People might not know also that Coptic Christians are not the only Egyptian Christians,for I have meet many Greek Orthodox Egyptian Christians. Their numbers are numerically smaller than Copts.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Ausar, See Cleopatra above, her mother is coptic. Since I married my coptic dh I come across these mixed marriages, even religious ones. I guess it is harder nowadays, but in the sixties people cared a lot less about religious background to be totally opposed to it. It is like in former yugoslavia where especially the mixed couples, of whom several were orthodox christians married to muslems, were especially in trouble for that reason. As were mixed hutu's and tutsi's. Maybe it could be more difficult for orthodox women, but love does take its course anyway, and these couples do occur against all odds. It is a range if you are open to it. On the other hand I met women that lost their fianciee caus there was a churchbreak, and they ended up on the other side with their families, over minor religious dogma's.
posted
well one of my best friends who is like a sister is a copt, i have many other coptic friends, and our neighbours who we are very close to us are cotpic. i think their is a problem between muslims and copts in egypt among the lower and uneducated classes. oh i wont eat with her because shes a copt, oh i wont buy from this store because they are muslim. the egyptian government as usual denies the existence of any tension and deals with the issue by making sure of putting a coptic and muslim character in soap operas and movies who are amazing friends, and love each other completely. a very superficial way of dealing with the problem in my opinion- typical of the egyptian government ofcourse. i think its time for egyptian muslims and copts to bring these issues to light so that we can discuss them and deal with them inshallah.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Hey guys Wallahy, I would never make up my life story My mother is coptic and my father is muslim. They are both born and raised in Egypt, but are mixed, my mum is greek spanish and my father is lebanese. But my mum's brother and mother were living in England at the time and my parents fell inlove in university, after she finished uni she moved to England and wanted to marry my father, but his parents wouldn't allow it, so he ran away and flew to England, where they got married in the Egyptian embassy and a church. It was hard back then because families didn't accept it. Back to the poor places I'm talking about, they are close to Nasr City, the ppl don't live in houses, they live in boxes, they dont even have a tape recorder to listen to anything. But you guys can check it out. If you go to one of the churches where they actually go visit these places and take food and clothing, you'll know what I'm talking about. Take Care all Posts: 12 | From: Maadi | Registered: Jan 2006
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Did you're parents ever get back on with their parents and family? And if so, how come and how long did it take. Did you have familymembers of you're parents to visit and get acquainted with?
Did you're parents tell you kids how they felt and feel about going against their family?
posted
My mother's side are amazing, they we're all living in Australia, only a few members were in Egypt andd some in england. They accepted my father straight away, they had always told my mum to follow her heart. It was my father's side that didn't accept the marriage. But no females had ever been born into my father's side, so when I was born, thats when they started accepting everything. It took my father's side over 2 years to accept the marriage, but up until now, they are still bitter. But my father's side live here in Egypt and my parents and brother's live in Australia, thats where I was born and raised. So they don't really deal with eachother. But my mum isn't the only one how married a muslim, her and 3 of her female cousins married muslim men, and it was with the help of my mum and dad... they all had to go through the same process. I guess true love conquers all Posts: 12 | From: Maadi | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
In the Dutch-Gyana's there is a lot of different groups living together. Althoug many of them did and do oppose of mixed marriages, they do occur. I have this friend that lives in the Netherlands and married out of her race and religion. Sometimes she regrets doing this for their children don't have aunts, grandparents and the lot. When I was there I stayed with this couple that shared the same race and background, but one was muslem and the other hindoe. One of em never ate beef, and the other never pig, so most of the time they agreed on chicken!:-) They never had to brake with their families. But I guess couples do either convert to one of their religious traditions or live at a greater distance of organized religion altogether. Although I know some couples (even among my own family) that keep their choice of protestant church and keep going separately to their own churches, with children that go either with one or the other.
posted
Thanks for you're stories Cleopatra. I guess you must be really proud of you're parents! I guess for a 'mixed' child that is brought up in a positive environment like this it gives one a huge advantage in understanding life and humans of all sorts.
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