As a black man from London married to an Egyptian from London I must say I find the race relations here a little bit frustrating. Don;t get me wrong I do not feel abused or harassed in any way. At least not yet - LOL. I have been here now 6 months after coming on and off for the past 2 years. If I go out with my wife we are stared at as though we have just arrived from Mars. Is it THAT amazing that a black guy and an egyptian woman could be married?
I've been black all my life (yeah I like that one too) so I have become good at reading the signs of a racist look. The way I read the looks I get here is like this. People are confused as to why my wife (who is a very pretty woman who wears a hijab) would be with me at all?
This is backed up by evidence by the way. We are members of the Heliopolis Club or Naadi. My wife has been asked (usually when I'm not with her) why her children are so dark? When she tells people it is because her husband is a Ghanaian they gasp! YES GASP! One woman even said "Noooo. Why? Why did you do that?"
I suppose all societies go through a racist stage as people need time and generations of mixing before they readily accept other people as normal. I grew up in England and I know racism first hand. But I also know that in London a black man is not a spectacle anymore and mixed relationships are nothing to gasp at. With all the TV Shows, MTV, Rap music, US President, etc I would have thought that it would not need for there to be many black people walking around for Egyptians in Cairo to accept this as normal.
My only excuse for this behaviour is that most other black people I see here are either poor or they are maids, cleaners etc. This "slave" image of black people may still exist in many of the minds of Egyptians who live in Cairo and hence they are surprised that a woman who is not black would want to attach herself to this degraded race.
It may be that I have missed the point completely and it is my ugly face that they are shocked at not my colour hahahaa.
Anyway, please anyone please feel free to comment honestly about this. _____________________________________________________
I have a blog called London to Cairo http//www.londontocairo.com
Posts: 27 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2010
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I know how you feel. You should try being a white woman in Cairo sometime. I get stared at wether or not I'm with my husband.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "My only excuse for this behaviour is that most other black people I see here are either poor or they are maids, cleaners etc. This "slave" image of black people may still exist in many of the minds of Egyptians who live in Cairo and hence they are surprised that a woman who is not black would want to attach herself to this degraded race. "
I find the racism here odd myself too, I am also from UK and I would have thought a Muslim country less racist then even UK (which I dont find all that racist BUT I left before the BNP got leary )
A woman I knew was from Sudan, black as black with beautiful features, also Muslim but not wearing hijab. She found the racism in Egypt hard, she also had been married to a German man and had a mixed child. On the train to Cairo she overheard some Egyptian girls making fun of her colour, but she speaks Arabic so understood all they said. She didnt half give them a mouthful
You will have to do as we white females have to do and ignore it and hold your head high, God made you as you are and if they dont like it refer them to Him.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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First of all thanks for the laugh ("I've been black all my life" - never heard that one before) I don't think we get enough laughter around this place.
And as the previous two women said, you get stared at for being white as well. Plus being white and wearing hijab, heck I think being anything other than Egyptian will get you stared at.
Husband and I were at Mogamma getting my resident visa and one of the ladies that was helping us was so happy for me that not only was I from the U.S. and Muslim, but wearing hijab too. Like it never happened before. Actually it was quite touching. lol
But I guess people here are often surprised by anything different.
Honestly I find so little diversity here that I am often surprised myself when I see someone of another nationality/race, but it is always a pleasant surprise. I come from somewhere that was very diversified and I miss that.
Posts: 1283 | From: Cairo | Registered: Feb 2006
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Can you imagine the stares I get being the only black woman contractor working as a Petroleum Engineer at the corporation I'm at?
Posts: 133 | From: egypt/usa | Registered: May 2009
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Oh thank God I am not losing my mind. I thought I was just being sensitive but it really is that bad isn't it? LovedOne you found a happy person at the resident visa office? You should have taken her picture! LOL
I suppose I don't really mind that people are surprised - I mean - a shock is a shock you can't control being shocked, but it's the prejudice that I find so disappointing. I agree with Ayisha as a Muslim it is a double blow because you feel let down that your "brothers and sisters" would still be like this 1400 years after the prophet forbade racism in his last sermon, but hey!
What bugs me is also I guess is that deep down I kind of understand UK racism (dun! dun! daaa! - stay with me a second). I mean that as a small country the UK has a quite an impressive history and as a nation of people I can understand the nationalism which often leads to racism, but I'm sorry Mr "I am Egyptian and the best in the world" - who names towns after wars that you LOST?
I don't mean to be horrible I do love Egypt and that's why I live here - but I feel like telling them sometimes that my Ghanaian grandfather left an "independent Ghana" and bought his own house in London at a time when Egypt was still a colonised country - GET A GRIP!
posted
Oh btw Dilemma - only black woman petroleum engineer? You Go Giiiirl!! Show em what you got!! I'm surprised guests don't stop you in the corridor and shout " SHAY...YA BINT!"
quote:Originally posted by LondonToCairo: I mean that as a small country the UK has a quite an impressive history and as a nation of people I can understand the nationalism which often leads to racism, but I'm sorry Mr "I am Egyptian and the best in the world" - who names towns after wars that you LOST?
I don't understand that naming towns thing either. Not much creativity involved in naming the wars either. At least the Americans had the Civil War and the Revolutionary War and then moved on to "Operation this or that". But in Egypt, with all the nationalism and pride - they can't think of anything other than the DATE???? You would think at times of war, Egypt would remember what is most important to them and name the wars after FOOTBALL PLAYERS.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Dilemma: Can you imagine the stares I get being the only black woman contractor working as a Petroleum Engineer at the corporation I'm at?
Now you are not, get out of here!! Egyptians must turn to stone while staring at you! That's too much for them to handle at once!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by LondonToCairo: My wife has been asked (usually when I'm not with her) why her children are so dark?
That reminds me so much of my former Egyptian guest family. We were staying for a summer in a hotel complex and I - being the nanny for both small boys - was not allowed to take the children during the day out and when we finally made it to the pool in the late afternoon the children should only swim in the shaded side of the pool.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Racism is global but if you join the expat circle you will find you are nowhere near alone in your situation and pretty much run of the mill boring... sorry
There are a lot of folk from Ghana living here... the men are studying and the wives take on jobs as cleaners etc as they can work based on their partners visas... sadly, it is the time of year for educational institutes to be closed so the men are no longer studying meaning their wives are no longer legal to work as their visas are now cancelled.
Only this week a Twi tribe were deported. You may be stigmatised because of the deportation... as some folk do not see they were here legally but their visas expired and cannot be renewed...
Anyhow, join the expat circle and you will find out for yourself that not everyone is a narrow minded arsehole Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Akwaba LTC
Racism is global but if you join the expat circle you will find you are nowhere near alone in your situation and pretty much run of the mill boring... sorry
There are a lot of folk from Ghana living here... the men are studying and the wives take on jobs as cleaners etc as they can work based on their partners visas... sadly, it is the time of year for educational institutes to be closed so the men are no longer studying meaning their wives are no longer legal to work as their visas are now cancelled.
Only this week a Twi tribe were deported. You may be stigmatised because of the deportation... as some folk do not see they were here legally but their visas expired and cannot be renewed...
Anyhow, join the expat circle and you will find out for yourself that not everyone is a narrow minded arsehole
Thank you! What a shame about that Twi Tribe. You know I understand racism is global but I just want to say that in Ghana my experience is that most foreigners feel extremely welcome there. In fact when I go there with my wife she is treated better than I am!
To be fair to Egypt the majority of people are kind and very helpful and respecting of my inability to speak arabic well. I can not say that for the UK with regards people not speaking English - it is almost seen as being a bit stupid! So I guess, like you said you have to put up with it.
I myself can honestly (hand on heart) say that I never see colour. I married my wife because she was my dream girl. I didn't even really consider that she was Egyptian until I had to meet her parents, then I only thought about it because I was worried they might reject me because of my background. luckily they are the best in-laws in the world.
Once years ago, they took me to the Heliopolis club and when we were signing in the guy at the door said "Your servant will have to stay here". My father in law (who has passed away now - may Allah grant him Paradise) nearly killed the guy! LOL - I was oblivious to what they guy had said, but I realised when my father in law made him apologise to me - that he must have been rude. The whole family made so many complaints on my behalf I don't hink that man will make the same assumption again for a long time!!
Posts: 27 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by LondonToCairo: Once years ago, they took me to the Heliopolis club and when we were signing in the guy at the door said "Your servant will have to stay here". My father in law (who has passed away now - may Allah grant him Paradise) nearly killed the guy! LOL - I was oblivious to what they guy had said, but I realised when my father in law made him apologise to me - that he must have been rude. The whole family made so many complaints on my behalf I don't hink that man will make the same assumption again for a long time!!
OMG that made me go all knobs! Thats awful! Thank god you have decent in-laws. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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There is often talk here about how the more affluent hoods in Cairo are westernized and don't possess the depth of racism in balady neighborhoods.
I think you've proved them wrong in this extent.
There are some very dark Bedouins who bought up villas in nicer and older blocks in my ex's home town. The soldiers from Upper Egypt (the roads into town are heavily guarded because of government buildings) are forever assuming that these dark Bedouins are the bawabs of these villas not the owners, no matter how often they are corrected.
This is the only time a "Seeadi" joke had been translated to me from Egyptian Arabic to English by the owner of a particular villa. He was so incensed eventhough I didn't fully understand the language of the Seeadi used, but he wanted me to know that he could stand up for himself.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: There is often talk here about how the more affluent hoods in Cairo are westernized and don't possess the depth of racism in balady neighborhoods.
What a nonsense you are talking about here. Most Egyptians will tell a khawaga like you that there is no racism in Egypt but how would you know anyway. You've never been out of the US.
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: This is the only time a "Seeadi" joke had been translated to me
"Seeadi" - wow your Arabic really IS getting better!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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I live in a "up market area". I have have egyptian friends who have made racist comments about friends of my sons. They are canadian but obviously have a Somalian or Sudanese parents. Yp and they are racist! I see egyptian children at school give these kids hell, and generally no-one intervenes. Egyptians racist, in my "personal" opnion yes.
-------------------- MRS HASSAN Posts: 129 | From: In the land of plenty | Registered: Mar 2008
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No doubt, the problem of "race" and caste in modern Egypt is more or less universal. It's what you get when countries and nations are formed out invaders barging in to exterminate or disposses the indigenes. The indigenes--i.e. those who have not been exterminated of miscegenated out--are then relegated to the roles of subservients: doormen, guards, housemaids, house-cleaners, etc.
Interestingly enough, all of the invasions that have formed nations such as these have come from Eurasia. Think of Egypt, India, Australia, Mexico, Peru, South Africa, Kenya, Zimbabwe--in fact all the Americas.
There been equalising movements in places like South Africa and Zimbabwe that have been minimally effective, but for the rest great amounts of social transformation are yet to be realised.
In the specific case of Egypt, of course the vast majority of Northern Egyptians are descendants of waves of invader-settlers starting with the Hyksos then culminating in its first stage with the Persian invasions. After that, Egypt became a free-for-all with Greeks, Romans, Arabians and their West Asian fellow-travellers, French, British, Turks, etc. all barging in and planting their seed.
This is the essence of colour racism in the world today: consciously or unconsciously the settler-invader reinforces his/her own artificial identity by deliberate distinguishing himself/herself from the idea of the indigene.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: There is often talk here about how the more affluent hoods in Cairo are westernized and don't possess the depth of racism in balady neighborhoods.
What a nonsense you are talking about here. Most Egyptians will tell a khawaga like you that there is no racism in Egypt but how would you know anyway. You've never been out of the US.
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: This is the only time a "Seeadi" joke had been translated to me
"Seeadi" - wow your Arabic really IS getting better!!
There are 6 different ways to spell Seeadi, due to the fact that Arabic is in Arabic script and there is no official transliteration.
Where in my post did I say the Bedouin refered to the Seeadi as racist? No such statement was made, it was purely whether the owner of the villa was a bawab or owner. It was actually quite funny that a dark skinned Seeadi couldn't believe that a dark skinned man could own such a huge house with huge garden and 6 cars in the car park. But he earned all of it through a lifetime of hard work.
Mind you photos of me in Egypt have been posted on ES and an actual photo of you in Egypt has not been posted on ES.
I do believe you were in Sinai once in 2005 but don't believe you've been there before or since.
Did you forget I lived in Ghana as well.. you could imagine her there if you find time in your busy unemployed schedule.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: There are 6 different ways to spell Seeadi, due to the fact that Arabic is in Arabic script and there is no official transliteration.
and not 1 spell it like that. Its Saeedi, not seeadi
sa-ee-di
not see-a-di
according to a saeedi here, there is no such word as seaadi
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lol, Ayisha, don't try to teach an idiot!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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"I left my country looking for safety and security but in Egypt I found harassment and more problems. Work here is difficult and they throw stones and tomatoes at me on the street. They curse at me and call me 'the black'."
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Lol, Ayisha, don't try to teach an idiot!!
So the idiot is the person who finished university and has a professional career.
the smart people are high school drop outs, only on ES....
you got that right, I am the one that can spell and correct you many times And your 'professional career' still has you unemployed more than you are employed. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Lol, Ayisha, don't try to teach an idiot!!
So the idiot is the person who finished university and has a professional career.
the smart people are high school drop outs, only on ES....
you got that right, I am the one that can spell and correct you many times And your 'professional career' still has you unemployed more than you are employed.
I work legally, I work in a profession that requires skills and a post-secondary education. I have never sued my employer, and have left my "contract assignments" in good relations.
There is spell check tool online and in office word; to put the extra effort to spell check everything I post is really a waste of time.
I have no clue why you are so obsessed about spelling in a forum. It doesn't exactly matter. But your own thought process is so haywire that the obsessions you exert explain themselves.
Because the original poster isn't a fraud, nor a sugarmama I'll bow out and leave this raging BS cycle for another thread.
Hopefully you can contain your emotional disorder and discontinue.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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sono I dont need to use a spell checker, neither should you given you are claiming to be the educated one.
I made a point of this particular mis-spelling because you claimed there were 6 ways to spell saeedi and still managed not to get it right. All I did was point out your error and help you in your Arabic, incase you do ever come to Egypt again
Now I agree this guy doesnt need your psychotic ramblings on his thread so I will leave it now and suggest you do the same.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sono I dont need to use a spell checker, neither should you given you are claiming to be the educated one.
I made a point of this particular mis-spelling because you claimed there were 6 ways to spell saeedi and still managed not to get it right. All I did was point out your error and help you in your Arabic, incase you do ever come to Egypt again
Now I agree this guy doesnt need your psychotic ramblings on his thread so I will leave it now and suggest you do the same.
Calm down, practice some maturity. This isn't the thread for this.
Different approaches and methods for the romanization of Arabic (Arabic: رومنة اللغة العربية rawmanat al-luġa al-ʻarabiyya) exist. They vary in the way that they address the inherent problems of rendering written and spoken Arabic in the Latin alphabet; they also use different symbols for Arabic phonemes that do not exist in English or other European languages. (Note that in some web browsers, some transliteration symbols may not appear). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic
Even native Arabi speakers type Arabic words in roman letters differently because there is no concrete "official" means to go about it. Thats why there is 6 different ways to type out Seeadi in English. Besides there are a number of spelling, punctuation mistakes above. You can usually tell with the dotted red line under the word. Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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I am calm. I don't post in Word before I post it here, that's a waste of time, but if you do and still get it wrong, there isn't much else I can do for you
quote:Different approaches and methods for the romanization of Arabic (Arabic: رومنة اللغة العربية rawmanat al-luġa al-ʻarabiyya) exist. They vary in the way that they address the inherent problems of rendering written and spoken Arabic in the Latin alphabet; they also use different symbols for Arabic phonemes that do not exist in English or other European languages. (Note that in some web browsers, some transliteration symbols may not appear). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic
Even native Arabi speakers type Arabic words in roman letters differently because there is no concrete "official" means to go about it. Thats why there is 6 different ways to type out Seeadi in English.
There is no such word as seeadi in Arabic though sono, or English. The word is SAEEDI.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I love this post. Its interesting to hear about these type of experiences - but its not only strangers who can give the darker skinned person a hard time in Egypt! My husbands family are not of the Arab type, but more like the older African type. All tall, large bone structure and very muscular build. His mother and sisters all hide from the sun, he on the other hand used to be out in the water diving all day and was very dark. Every time he went home to the family his mother is cuddling him and saying "oh son, what has happened to you? Why have you gone so dark? We must buy lots of cream for your skin" And she would cry a few tears. I always find this really weird. I love his colour, he loves his colour, but mummy and sisters definitely see it as a social problem. He has been picked on many times by police in cairo when we visited. He often is asked if he is American, Sudanese. His friends however are used his dark colour, and when he was in UK many several years ago on a 6 month holiday during winter, he faded quite pale. When he went back is friends were all laughing at him and calling him white boy! Egyptians definitely seem to have an issue with the colour of people. When we have visited Cairo we could never get a hotel room. I asked a local hotel manager we know and he said, well, it maybe because you are too white and he is too black. Strange.
Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
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