Dear Troubles101 Again u mix up between cultures and religion (Being modest is very dependant on the society you live in. what counts in UK for example as modest may be seen immodest in Egypt or Saudi Arabia.) what religion told us is clear about Hijab it is simply (all covered else Face and hands and the clothes is not transpartent and not explain body and respected) there is different between modest and Hijab wearing real hijab make u modest but wearing modest not make u wearing hijab
[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 01 November 2004).][/B]
Well Some Cultural aspects in the arabic society were accepted by Islam and covering head is one of them but there is a difference between accepting cultural thing and commanding it.
I don't see strong evidence for the claim that Islam command women to wear a head covering.
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Well Some Cultural aspects in the arabic society were accepted by Islam and covering head is one of them but there is a difference between accepting cultural thing and commanding it.
I don't see strong evidence for the claim that Islam command women to wear a head covering.
Please Read a lot about Tafasser Alnour swra and versus 31 and also u can see some of our prophet mohamed (PBUH) says then think about what u wrote again cause what u writing here is a big issue "I don't see strong evidence for the claim that Islam command women to wear a head covering." with regard u are muslium. it is not right to say that and all the muslium's Imams said it is one of islam rules for womans to wear Hijab.
quote:Originally posted by AnotherNewMember: I think this is how the media distorts reality by emphasizing these extreme societies, like headlining the incident in Saudi where a young girl died in a burning building, because she was not allowed to come outside without her hijab. This is what western media will show to try to hype the concept that hijab women are oppressed.
I thought more than one girl died in this accident?
I don't necessarily think the media emphasized this particular incident to show that women wearing hijab are oppressed, but it clearly illustrated how distorted and twisted the Saudi's interpretation of religion is. I feel there should be more reports on how human rights (and particularly women's rights) are constantly violated in that country.
quote:Originally posted by Dalia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by AnotherNewMember: [b] I think this is how the media distorts reality by emphasizing these extreme societies, like headlining the incident in Saudi where a young girl died in a burning building, because she was not allowed to come outside without her hijab. This is what western media will show to try to hype the concept that hijab women are oppressed.
I thought more than one girl died in this accident?
I don't necessarily think the media emphasized this particular incident to show that women wearing hijab are oppressed, but it clearly illustrated how distorted and twisted the Saudi's interpretation of religion is. I feel there should be more reports on how human rights (and particularly women's rights) are constantly violated in that country. [/B][/QUOTE]
I totally agree. I believe that whatever rules are applied they should be applied equally across both sexes. Driving, clothing, voting, marriage, education etc etc. These women are treated unfairly. There are many books where womens rights in muslim countries are violated. What I am working through and trying to identify, is are these due to tradition of the countries or religion. I think in the majority of cases they are horrid traditions which give women few rights, expecially in the cases where the mother cannot keep her children with her and they belong to the father- it is so unnatural! Look at the animal kingdom. Only when the offspring are grown do they belong to their father! 8 years old is not old enough for the mother to have no rights to see her children.
posted
Saudi Arabia : Investigation into tragic death of 14 school girls must be transparent and public
Amnesty International is gravely concerned at reports that 14 girls have lost their lives and dozens of others were injured following a fire at their school in Mecca on 11 March 2002 after the religious police (Mutawa'een) prevented them from escaping from the fire because they were not wearing headscarves and their male relatives were not there to receive them.
The religious police are also reported to have prevented rescuers from entering the school because they were males and therefore not permitted to mix with females.
"If these reports are true, this is a tragic illustration of how gender discrimination can have lethal consequences."
"When state policies on segregation of sexes are implemented at the expense of human life, urgent steps are needed at the highest level. Policies and practises through which the lives of women and girls are devalued must be changed."
Amnesty International welcomes calls for an urgent investigation into these tragic deaths to prevent any future recurrence and for anyone found responsible to be brought to justice. The findings of such investigation must be made public.
Saudi Arabia must take urgent measures to end all forms of discrimination against women in accordance with CEDAW ( Convention on Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women ), to which Saudi Arabia is a state party.
Background The Saudi Arabian English language daily Arab News quoted eye witnesses as having said: ''Whenever the girls got out through the main gate, these people [Mutawa'een] forced them to return via another'',...''instead of extending a helping hand for the rescue work, they were using their hands to beat us,'' http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Sau-summary-eng
quote:Originally posted by sue333: I totally agree. I believe that whatever rules are applied they should be applied equally across both sexes. Driving, clothing, voting, marriage, education etc etc. These women are treated unfairly. There are many books where womens rights in muslim countries are violated. What I am working through and trying to identify, is are these due to tradition of the countries or religion. I think in the majority of cases they are horrid traditions which give women few rights, expecially in the cases where the mother cannot keep her children with her and they belong to the father- it is so unnatural! Look at the animal kingdom. Only when the offspring are grown do they belong to their father! 8 years old is not old enough for the mother to have no rights to see her children.
I haven't read through most of these replies so sorry if i repeat anything that has already been said. All of the veiled Muslim women that i know are veiled by choice... some even against the wishes of their family members (male and female). I also know of some Muslim women who would like to veil but are worried from the reactions of their friends! If others want to see us veiled women as being slaves then.... who really cares! If Saudi women are the root of these misconceptions then who has actually spoken to any? Who knows if they are bothered by how they live or not? Also it must be remembered that you can't judge a religion by the people following it.
Women have many rights in Islam, some that non muslims are not aware of and some that non muslims do not appreciate as being a privelige for Muslim women. I won't go into this in detail as it has been discussed here many times and also there is untold amounts of information on the net. Some of the oppressive treatment you see being dealt to Muslim women is indeed tradition and not Islamic.
In islam, if a man and woman divorce then the children are kept with the mother until they reach a certain age.. puberty i think. I'm not 100% sure because i have also read a fatwa that states a girl should stay with the mother until marriage and a boy until puberty which makes more sense to me. Someone else(maybe Newcomer) can confirm this. Nevertheless the age is not 8 years old, if you have heard that this WAS the case in the early days of Islam then that would be because children reached puberty earlier back then.
As Islam is a fair and just religion i don't believe nor have i seen anything that states a woman should not/can not see her children after a divorce... in fact the quran states that divorce should be amicable and each party should treat each other with kindness.
Really, people should try to understand the real Islam before they assume the wrong things.. also speak to Muslim women if you think we have no rights and you will probably be surprised! Islam seems to be the fastest growing religion, especially from women reverting... does that mean we are all rushing to be oppressed?!
Supposedly "Islamic" books written by Islamic Feminists are purely the opinion of a minority and usually written in order to sell thousands or millions of copies! We have rights in Islam.... Islam introduced women's rights!!
[This message has been edited by Nefertiti (edited 02 November 2004).]
Posts: 693 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [b]Ever wonder WHY ??
"why a nun can cover from head to toe and she is respected for devoting herself to God why when a muslimah does this she is oppressed"
A nun CAN, a muslimah MUST...
quote: "when someone sacrifices himself to keep others lives he is noble and respected but when a Palestinian does that to save his sons life, his mother from being raped, his home from destruction and his Mosque from being violated he is a terrorist"
Sacrifying oneself is different from sacrifying oneself AND other innocents!!!
quote: "when there is trouble we accept any solution only if the solution is Islam we refuse without even looking at this solution"
I thought Islam was a religion, not a solution to a trouble...
I agree with you, there are many prejudice upon Islam, mainly based on generalizations, but you will agree with me that, if most of the terrorist attacks in latest years have been performed by muslims, it's easy to blame muslim people in general. Just like it's easy to blame and hate Americans in general just because their president is what he is. It's not right, of course, but it's comprehensible. That's the answer to all your why's... bye TheMark
[This message has been edited by TheMark (edited 02 November 2004).]
Posts: 23 | From: Milan-Italy, living in Cairo | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Nefertiti: As Islam is a fair and just religion i don't believe nor have i seen anything that states a woman should not/can not see her children after a divorce... in fact the quran states that divorce should be amicable and each party should treat each other with kindness.
Really, people should try to understand the real Islam before they assume the wrong things.. also speak to Muslim women if you think we have no rights and you will probably be surprised! Islam seems to be the fastest growing religion, especially from women reverting... does that mean we are all rushing to be oppressed?!
[This message has been edited by Nefertiti (edited 02 November 2004).]
The books I refer to are written by women- often muslim women and those wo converted to muslim believing their marriage to be a true and happy one- only to find their rights diminished- especially regarding children. Many muslim states will not support these womens rights- these are not misconceptions, but fact. There are 100's and 100's of heartbroken women out there who's children have been kidnapped by muslim men and they cannot find or see their children again. I am more than willing to believe this may be due to traditions and have been investigating the root of these issues, but you cannot say they dont exist- just that in Egypt as in other muslim states the information is not available for you to see! I am looking to find the good in the religion and try and understand misconceptions by both the west and the muslim world- but dont bury your head in the sand and expect people to believe that there are no injustices. And for the record I have spoken to lots of muslim women and whilst there is a lot of good there is also a lot they would like to change. Personally, I believe that Egypt is a more moderate state in both womens rights and in the muslim world as a whole. Many, although not all of these issues on Human Rights occur in more fundamentalist states- this could be due to regligeous fanatasism, or culture and tradition which has been misconceived.
[This message has been edited by sue333 (edited 02 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Nefertiti: As Islam is a fair and just religion i don't believe nor have i seen anything that states a woman should not/can not see her children after a divorce... in fact the quran states that divorce should be amicable and each party should treat each other with kindness.
Really, people should try to understand the real Islam before they assume the wrong things.. also speak to Muslim women if you think we have no rights and you will probably be surprised! Islam seems to be the fastest growing religion, especially from women reverting... does that mean we are all rushing to be oppressed?!
[This message has been edited by Nefertiti (edited 02 November 2004).]
The books I refer to are written by women- often muslim women and those wo converted to muslim believing their marriage to be a true and happy one- only to find their rights diminished- especially regarding children. Many muslim states will not support these womens rights- these are not misconceptions, but fact. There are 100's and 100's of heartbroken women out there who's children have been kidnapped by muslim men and they cannot find or see their children again. I am more than willing to believe this may be due to traditions and have been investigating the root of these issues, but you cannot say they dont exist- just that in Egypt as in other muslim states the information is not available for you to see! I am looking to find the good in the religion and try and understand misconceptions by both the west and the muslim world- but dont bury your head in the sand and expect people to believe that there are no injustices. And for the record I have spoken to lots of muslim women and whilst there is a lot of good there is also a lot they would like to change. Personally, I believe that Egypt is a more moderate state in both womens rights and in the muslim world as a whole. Many, although not all of these issues on Human Rights occur in more fundamentalist states- this could be due to regligeous fanatasism, or culture and tradition which has been misconceived.
quote:Originally posted by sue333: The books I refer to are written by women- often muslim women and those wo converted to muslim believing their marriage to be a true and happy one- only to find their rights diminished- especially regarding children.
Many muslim states will not support these womens rights- these are not misconceptions, but fact. There are 100's and 100's of heartbroken women out there who's children have been kidnapped by muslim men and they cannot find or see their children again. I am more than willing to believe this may be due to traditions and have been investigating the root of these issues, but you cannot say they dont exist- just that in Egypt as in other muslim states the information is not available for you to see!
I have to admit i have not read any books by Muslim Feminists. Why? Because from what i know of Islam we don't need feminists. I also don't read books like "not without my children". Why? Because they don't interest me... they will be based on one womans life story which some people will take to mean all women of Islam are treated the same!
If a woman reverts to Islam she should do so after researching the religion, seeking guidance from Allah and finally making the decision after having firm belief and faith in heart and mind. If she does this then she should find that her rights INCREASE not diminish. If she has reverted for the love of her husband then for sure she will feel like she has been given a raw deal!
You can not understand a womans rights in Islam by reading articles from newspapers and books based on women in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, India etc You have to go right to the source which is the Quran and Sunnah!
Most women marry believing their marriage to be a true and happy one... Muslims and Non Muslim. Muslim men run away with the children upon separation, Muslim women do the same, non Muslim men do it and more frequently Non Muslim women run away from their husbands/partners with the kids and the men may never see their kids again... is that any more fair than when Muslim men do it? Who does the state support then? What about all the heartbroken men out there that don't get to see their children? I'm not saying here that i agree with anyone running away with the children, men or women, i'm trying to let you see that Islam and Muslims are given a rotten deal, everyone is so concerned with supposed injustices within Islam, but don't seem to look on their own door steps!
It all happens and it happens everywhere! The difference being that when you see it happening amongst Muslims it's not Islamic... it's the people not the religion!
quote:Originally posted by sue333: I am looking to find the good in the religion and try and understand misconceptions by both the west and the muslim world- but dont bury your head in the sand and expect people to believe that there are no injustices.
I'm my opinion there is ONLY good in Islam. My head is not in the sand... i live in a country where sometimes culture seems more important than religion. I see things that people will argue are Islamic when i know for sure they are not. There are some Muslims who are more ignorant of their religion than non muslims. I know Muslims do wrong.. everyone does, i just dislike it when people assume and propagate that ISLAM states it can be done!
Muslims create injustice not Islam.
quote:Originally posted by sue333: And for the record I have spoken to lots of muslim women and whilst there is a lot of good there is also a lot they would like to change.
Things they want to change in the religion or with their families and social circle? As Muslims we should want to change ourselves in order to be better Muslims and follow the straight path.. not change Islam to suit what we like doing. Believe me i have heard some strange things from some Muslims.
quote:Originally posted by sue333: Personally, I believe that Egypt is a more moderate state in both womens rights and in the muslim world as a whole. Many, although not all of these issues on Human Rights occur in more fundamentalist states- this could be due to regligeous fanatasism, or culture and tradition which has been misconceived.
[This message has been edited by sue333 (edited 02 November 2004).]
Egypt does seem to be the more moderate country for Islam.
From converstations i have had with Muslims it seems that because much of the Quran has been left for us to interpret as we see best, some people (usually men) take advantage of that and interpret it to their advantage.
Education would help a lot in many cases especially for Muslim women in poor countries. Many are illiterate and have no understanding of their own about Islam, they may just believe what they are told by their fathers/brothers/uncles.
For educated women the problem could simply be non interest in their religion, happy to accept any life in exchange for a rich husband then tears when it all goes wrong. Who knows?
Good luck in your quest for finding the true Islam... but always remember Islam can not be judged by the actions of Muslims.
Also i should add that you can't look at Islam in comparison to the west. If a persons mind is set to believe that the west is great and women are so liberated then they will surely think that Islam is oppressive to women.
[This message has been edited by Nefertiti (edited 02 November 2004).]
Posts: 693 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Salamalekum! So, you do not want to speak about hadith..? In the holy Koran is mentioned that you must not explain the Ayas by yourself, but through the hadith. We cannot explain the koran alone because its not made by a humanbrain. Thats why Allah ordered to follow the hadith of the last send Prophet. So, its a big mistake not to mentioned the hadith, we have to live as the prophet did, if you explain the Koran by yourself then you could do the biggest mistake to build your own (liked) rules and law. And this can be dangerous at the very end - I hope, i am not wrong when I say all that. The justice is by Allah. Salam
Posts: 83 | From: Zahraa El Maadi, Egypt | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Salamalekum! So, you do not want to speak about hadith..? In the holy Koran is mentioned that you must not explain the Ayas by yourself, but through the hadith. We cannot explain the koran alone because its not made by a humanbrain. Thats why Allah ordered to follow the hadith of the last send Prophet. So, its a big mistake not to mentioned the hadith, we have to live as the prophet did, if you explain the Koran by yourself then you could do the biggest mistake to build your own (liked) rules and law. And this can be dangerous at the very end - I hope, i am not wrong when I say all that. The justice is by Allah. Salam
Posts: 83 | From: Zahraa El Maadi, Egypt | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: Please Read a lot about Tafasser Alnour swra and versus 31 and also u can see some of our prophet mohamed (PBUH) says then think about what u wrote again cause what u writing here is a big issue [b]"I don't see strong evidence for the claim that Islam command women to wear a head covering." with regard u are muslium. it is not right to say that and all the muslium's Imams said it is one of islam rules for womans to wear Hijab.
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Mohd, no where the Qur'an says "cover your head" And the two hadiths I'm aware of are "Mursal"
can u tell me what you based on in your openion ? is it a personal thinking or u based on something or some Imams u know said that. Please take care when u talk about something like that cause it make something its name (Fetna) i mean some musliums womans may take your words here as a basics to encourage them to take off or not wearing their hijab so u got a lot of bad deeds by this words and if u are not convinced go to any Imam and told him your openion and see what he will tell u and if u talk here just for Discusion and show your openion. please not make openion in something like that u don't know very well cause nor me nor u are Imam so we just read and try to understand and try to think and when we find something we are not sure about it we have to see whom is specialiest in this thing beside I told u it is not one of the biggest sin and can i ask u something. from the point of view that you are a good muslium and want purity and pious to all musliums ppl what is the need to see the Hair of the woman ? and what is the need to see her wearing short skirt even it is modest ? what will add to muslium scosity ? what will add to our faith ? what will add to our productivity ? what will add to our life generally ?
please don't tell me it is womans rights ... bla bla .. cause womans right is not in what they wearing
if u answer me in this questions i would be very thankfull for u
if u want to know if u are right or not in anything in your life or in your religion imagine one thing that our Prophet mohamed (PBUH) is with u and u asked him what his openion in that. i will write u one versus in Al-Imran it is no 7
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: Please take care when u talk about something like that cause it make something its name (Fetna) i mean some musliums womans may take your words here as a basics to encourage them to take off or not wearing their hijab so u got a lot of bad deeds by this words
I think no Muslim woman with a brain in her head and belief in her faith will take off her veil if she believes in wearing it just because of something she reads on an internet board.
quote:please don't tell me it is womans rights ... bla bla .. cause womans right is not in what they wearing
Of course it's a woman's right to decide what she is wearing ... who else should decide that?
The first principle is that a Muslim woman has to have the right and freedom to choose how she interprets her dress code. This fundamental acknowledgement of her innate ability to choose (or not) the path of Allah (swt) is more important than any type of specifics about what constitutes hijab (or appropriate covering of the body). Without this freedom to interpret Islam to the best of her ability (a part of which, of course, is seeking the informed opinions of knowledgeable Muslims in order to educate herself) she is not living up to her potential as a human being, and that is more fundamental than what clothes are being worn. ...
There is no compulsion in matter of faith. Distinct is the way of guidance now from error... (al-Baqarah 2:256, A.Ali translation)
The most obvious reason why Muslim women have been given the freedom to interpret the Islamic dress code is because it is not a subject of societal concern according to the Qur'an. If it were, a sanction or punishment for failing to observe Islamic dress would be given - just as there are punishments for adultery, murder, libel and so on. As it stands the Qur'an leaves this matter up to the conscience of the individual.
quote:Originally posted by Dalia: [QUOTE]The most obvious reason why Muslim women have been given the freedom to interpret the Islamic dress code is because it is not a subject of societal concern according to the Qur'an. If it were, a sanction or punishment for failing to observe Islamic dress would be given - just as there are punishments for adultery, murder, libel and so on. As it stands the Qur'an leaves this matter up to the conscience of the individual.[/i]
Hi
I agree with mostof the above, but can you explain why some fundamentalist muslim countries like Iran and Saudi do enforce certain interpretations of dress by the religious police. I understand this is law of the land- but they are trying to say it is based on religion which if the Qur'an leaves it up to the womans interpretation, this is being hypoctitical and incorrect. In these countries- the laws are made by men.
I still ask the question- if it is so freeing to wear and is modest and stops people being judged by their beauty- why is it not expected that men wear the hajib? For the very same reasons!!!
posted
can u answer me two question then we can go as u wish in the hijab
why we are here in life ? and why god create us ?
that is the core of Islam u can measure all the issues in our life in the answer of those two questions then judge in Hijab Judge in anything and if your answer is ok with the two answers so do what u want
thanks in advance
[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 07 November 2004).]
--------- O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all (other) believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments (when in public): this will be more conducive to their being recognized (as decent women) and not annoyed. But (withal,) God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace! (al-Ahzab 33:59, Asad transl.)
The spirit of this ayat, is to dress in a manner that will signal 'unavailability'.
The context of this verse, it has been suggested, is that some of the hypocrites were molesting women in the street and they argued that they had thought the women were slaves and thus 'molestable'. Consequently, Muslim women were to dress to distinguish themselves as modest and chaste and not 'molestable'. Now obviously it would be a much better (and more Islamic) society to raise men not to molest women, than to allow men to consider molesting unveiled women permissible. One could argue that this command is context and time specific, and as such, dress is used as a marker of Muslim identity and not necessarily an indicator of the moral status of the woman herself. -------------- If middle Eastern men could live by their own religious code of conduct none of this would be such a big issue for women.
It is not a problem for the majority of western men who are surrounded by less modestly dressed women ...they do not gawp, stare or molest.......... so why is it such a problem for middle Eastern men that it become necessary for women to cover themselves to extreme measures?
quote:Originally posted by Penny: If middle Eastern men could live by their own religious code of conduct none of this would be such a big issue for women.
It is not a problem for the majority of western men who are surrounded by less modestly dressed women ...they do not gawp, stare or molest.......... so why is it such a problem for middle Eastern men that it become necessary for women to cover themselves to extreme measures?
Beats me ... I've been wondering about that for a long time.
Anyway, I don't really understand why the hijab issue is such a big thing for many men. Why do they feel so strongly about it? Why not leave the discussion mainly to women?
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: sorry i will not send any more posts here if that the wish of the womans
thanks
[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 07 November 2004).]
Dear MohdAnwar I very much respect your posts and the kindly way you bring information to the subject. I am not trying to put you in the spotlight as a man but I think many women do want to understand why middle eastern men do not follow the code of their religion in dealing with ALL women respectfully. This is what is the route cause of so many problems between both western /eastern women and men.
Is it a matter of upbringing...then if so mothers have a part to answer for in this as well as fathers..... Or is it just a greater importance of sex in the mind of Eastern men. Is it that it is so hard these days for men to marry in their 20's.... Or are they not taught their own religion in schools..... Honestly many of us would really like to understand the reason behind this sort of behaviour.
quote:Originally posted by Penny: Dear MohdAnwar I very much respect your posts and the kindly way you bring information to the subject. I am not trying to put you in the spotlight as a man but I think many women do want to understand why middle eastern men do not follow the code of their religion in dealing with ALL women respectfully. This is what is the route cause of so many problems between both western /eastern women and men.
Is it a matter of upbringing...then if so mothers have a part to answer for in this as well as fathers..... Or is it just a greater importance of sex in the mind of Eastern men. Is it that it is so hard these days for men to marry in their 20's.... Or are they not taught their own religion in schools..... Honestly many of us would really like to understand the reason behind this sort of behaviour.
Dear Penny Again i will tell u not all the musliums behaviours means that Islam said that .i am not talking about eastern men i am talking about musliums. I will not tell u what is womans rights in islam cause i know most of converted womans know it well more than me or why they convert to islam if they not convinced about it. but i will talk about another thing that bring a lot of miss-understood.
U know in any company there is must be a tree for the adminstration i mean (there must be a manager , Assistance , ...etc and the boat must have a Capitan , Assitance , Sailor,....etc same in Family if there is no tree for Adminstrating it. It means it will sink at last and God give us the rules. -Man is taking all the responsiablity of the family (i am talking about real responaility not just giving orders) -Wife is his assistance in the family both of them have his own work and job to do no one can be instead of anyone if u asked me why the man would take the lead i will answer u ( why god create Adam first, why god make the womans have specail time in month (p..) , why god make woman pregnant not the man,....etc) so it is god rules and that what god told us.
if we talk about the bad bahvious of the men in eastern country with womans i agree with u many and may be most of them are bad but let me say that in reverse not all womans are angles but at any case i see it in another apporach
I don't know if u hear this sentense before or not but i will tell u (the life is a test from god for all humans) everything we have here in life is a test so u may pass so u get the heaven or u may not pass so u get the hell
if i apply this say in the womans and men relation it is like that so god could give u a bad husband to test u or also a bad wife to test u or may be to purify u from some sins and it is a test for both of them the bad and the good i mean god will ask the bad why u was bad and the good will give him good deeds but at any case we still have one of two choise:- 1-conteniue and be patinet and try to fix him or her with a smart way and then she or he will got a good deeds for her paitnet 2-ask for divorce if she/ he can't bear him or her any more. and islam give us the two options
and as i see the marriage and womans and men relationship is not a kind of fight who will take the lead if we apply what islam told us u will be always in safe side.
islam told u to choise the religious man and religious woman when u marry do u think anyone apply that ? most of the relation built in another issues so why we blame anyone. if the woman choose the good religious man i swear she will get the best treatment that can any woman have (cause his behavoiur with her mainly based on another test) he always ask himself (do u think what i did is as what god said or not?) so he always keep the relation as god said so it will be ok for sure
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: sorry i will not send any more posts here if that the wish of the womans
thanks
I was not referring to you participating in this discussion. I was wondering about a general phenomenon, that's all. This is an open board and it's up to you whether you reply here or not.
posted
Dear MohdAnwar I think there is a bit of a politician in you as you did not answer my question directly but you answered lots of others that I did not ask.
Sometimes somebody on ES says something to you thats makes a bit of a difference in your life and you just did that
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: U know in any company there is must be a tree for the adminstration i mean (there must be a manager , Assistance , ...etc and the boat must have a Capitan , Assitance , Sailor,....etc same in Family if there is no tree for Adminstrating it. It means it will sink at last and God give us the rules. -Man is taking all the responsiablity of the family (i am talking about real responaility not just giving orders) -Wife is his assistance in the family
Oh, please!!! This is such an overused and illogical example ... it's been brought up and debated here before.
It would be really nice if you came up with an argument or a logical conclusion of your own instead of just repeating stereotypes.
quote:Originally posted by sue333: I still ask the question- if it is so freeing to wear and is modest and stops people being judged by their beauty- why is it not expected that men wear the hajib? For the very same reasons!!!
Wouldn't you laugh if you saw a man wearing the same type of veil/hijab as a woman? I know i certainly would!!
Islam prohibits men from dressing like women and vice versa, so in any case they miss out on the chance of being lucky enough to veil like us.
For Sara - Hadith from the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS)
Allah's Messenger (SAWS) stated: "Allah curses the effeminate men and the masculine women." (Al-Bukhari)
He (SAWS) also said: "Allah curses the man who wears women's clothing and the women who wears man's clothing. He also curses the men who imitate women and the women who imitate men." (Al-Bukhari)
Hijab in relation to clothing is about guarding modesty... keeping the "jewels" protected and all of that. Men are also required to dress modestly AND they also have items they are forbidden to wear i.e. Silk and Gold which Muslim women are allowed. Does that mean men are also unequal and forced to miss out on the goodies?
Again Hadith: A Muslim male should not wear a ring of gold. Allah's Messenger said about gold and silk:"These are forbidden for the males of my Nation." (Abu Dawud)
Allah's Messenger (SAWS) also said: "Wearing silk and gold has been forbidden for the males of my Nation and permissible for its females." (At-Tirmithi)
Allah's Messenger (SAWS) saw a person wearing a gold ring and he took it off his finger and threw it aside, saying: "One of you takes a burning coal of fire and puts it on his hand."
After Allah's Messenger (SAWS) left, it was said to the man, "Take your ring and get some benefit from it." He replied, "No, by Allah, I will never take it after Allah's Messenger (SAWS) had thrown it away." (Muslim)
Men are required to cover themselves from the navel to below the knees... that is modesty for men. You also see some Muslim men that cover their heads.. either with a skull cap (can't remember the name in Arabic) or the table cloth pattern scarfs. You also find that many Muslim men wear long tunics (roughly above the ankle) and loose trousers underneath. I don't know if tight clothing has been specifically advised against or not... but if you're really interested you can easily find the information on an islamic website. I have yet to see debates about whether these men are being oppressed... as far as i know they dress this way by choice.
Posts: 693 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
Dear Dalia I don't know why u taking this situation from me allthough your name is very dear to me really !!!!! can u please tell me are u muslium ? and where are u from ?
[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 07 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: can u tell me what you based on in your openion ? is it a personal thinking or u based on something or some Imams u know said that. Please take care when u talk about something like that cause it make something its name (Fetna)
I totally agree with you. Islamic discussions should be conducted with utmost caution. Do not write anything you're not absolutely sure about and if it's your opinion , then you should state that clearly.
Trouble101 asked where in Quran it states that a woman must wear a Veil. I would guess that he disagrees with interpretations of the verse 31 in "Al Nour" , the one you used in support your argument earlier.
quote:Originally posted by Penny: It is not a problem for the majority of western men who are surrounded by less modestly dressed women ...they do not gawp, stare or molest.......... so why is it such a problem for middle Eastern men that it become necessary for women to cover themselves to extreme measures?
You included "molest" in your statement and that is simply a criminal behavior and I don't know that it is more prevalent between Middle Eastern men, I highly doubt it. But whatever the reason some men molest will most likely have to do with their personality rather than location, culture or religion.
Molesting aside, first of all they are minority. My personal opinion is that it is a result of mixed messages and unwillingness to discuss and educate men and women openly. They do not offer alternative and deny today’s realities. How is it possible to teach a young man or woman that sex should be reserved only to married couple while everything they see and hear revolves around SEX? Multibillion dollar advertising campaigns emphasizing the opposite of what they have been taught. And then they came , the tourist started coming in large numbers offering many what they had been denied for many years and adding to the confusion and the sense of deprivation. What you get is the "cute puppy who end up killing the tiny kitten the first time he sees one because he doesn't know what to do with her". The perfect example for anyone to understand what is going on is to look at the thread “Egyptian Kissing”. Even married couples have little or no access to information regarding to sex. And how are you going to change the misconception a man has had for so many years.
Have you ever approached one of those men who stare or hassle you. You would be amazed at how embarrassed they would suddenly get. They just don't know how to approach women.
Contrast that with men who attend coed schools and have the opportunity to mix with young women.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nefertiti: [B] Wouldn't you laugh if you saw a man wearing the same type of veil/hijab as a woman? I know i certainly would!!
Islam prohibits men from dressing like women and vice versa, so in any case they miss out on the chance of being lucky enough to veil like us.
Yes I would laugh, and I know Islam doesnt want men and women dressing alike, but they wouldnt be. They could even wear a different veil. I am just trying to discuss a point- as I really belive as Penny says- that the veil is there as a way of trying to control muslim mens sex drive and I think they should take responsibility for that on their own. Penny made a lot of valid points here, which are questions that the West do find - double standards. It seems that muslim men set the rules on this sort of behaviour and then find them hard to live by!!
quote:Originally posted by sue333: [QUOTE] It seems that muslim men set the rules
Again (WHAT MUSLIUMS DO NOT MEANS ISLAM RULES OR REVERSED) Hijab is an Islamic rules not Musliums men put it
quote:They could even wear a different veil.
That bring a very important point to the subject.Is the woman excited by seeing anything from men bodies as the men excited by seeing womans bodies? allthough i am not a woman but i will answer as phisc saying. They saying the most important thing in exciting the womans is the touching so what is the use of the veil for men ? we must do everything with understanding not just searching for equality in something no use for it.
quote:I am just trying to discuss a point- as I really belive as Penny says- that the veil is there as a way of trying to control muslim mens sex drive and I think they should take responsibility for that on their own.
let me explain something :-
1-God create men and woman to live togther so both of them are shareing eveything in the life so we can't say everyone of them is responisable about his doing. let me tell u an example it is extrems but to know if what we talk about is right or not if a woman walked nude in the street can u blame anyone that rape her ? or she is the main reason for that ?.
2-God put in the men that they exciting by seeing to make them take the first step cause womans suppose to be shy and that for the normal relation ship (Marriage)
3-U are totaly right that men must take a part of responisablity that they must (not look) to woman but as i told u it is a shared situation (She must wear Hijab and he must not look).
4-About western men and why they not look to woman not same as eastern men simply.
-walk in Egypt in a group of womans wearing hijab and u wearing a short look to the men where they look at (They will look at u) then -walk in USA and wear Hijab in a group of womans wearing shorts see where they look at (They will look at u too).
when u used to see something all your life so it is normal that your eyes search for the strange to look at so the western men used to see western woman as she wearing now so it became something normal and make the eyes bored from seeing it so they not look any more.I think one of the most important reasons that gays and lesbains phnomena spreaded in west more than east cause of men are bored and womans are bored.
[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 08 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: let me explain something :-
1-God create men and woman to live togther so both of them are shareing eveything in the life so we can't say everyone of them is responisable about his doing. let me tell u an example it is extrems but to know if what we talk about is right or not if a woman walked nude in the street can u blame anyone that rape her ? or she is the main reason for that ?.
2-God put in the men that they exciting by seeing to make them take the first step cause womans suppose to be shy and that for the normal relation ship (Marriage)
3-U are totaly right that men must take a part of responisablity that they must (not look) to woman but as i told u it is a shared situation (She must wear Hijab and he must not look).
4-About western men and why they not look to woman not same as eastern men simply.
-walk in Egypt in a group of womans wearing hijab and u wearing a short look to the men where they look at (They will look at u) then -walk in USA and wear Hijab in a group of womans wearing shorts see where they look at (They will look at u too).
when u used to see something all your life so it is normal that your eyes search for the strange to look at so the western men used to see western woman as she wearing now so it became something normal and make the eyes bored from seeing it so they not look any more.I think one of the most important reasons that gays and lesbains phnomena spreaded in west more than east cause of men are bored and womans are bored.
[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 08 November 2004).]
I have to say- in my opinion you have a total misunderstanding of women and their needs. Women do find men attractive to look at and they do fancy them - not just about touch it is a physical thing just like with men. They will look at a man and find him sexually attractive at times.
I do not agree that even if a woman walked naked down a street that there would be any justification for rape- that again is a lack of control on mens parts- unless a women says 'yes' to sex- she means 'no'.
Women are meant to be shy- who told you that? Women have different personalities just like men!!!
Western men have just had to learn to control themselves over time because they realise they see women in what muslim would consider 'underdressed' and they learn to deal with it and now it doesnt mean anything. Why can this not happen in the eat- problem solved!!!
If you walked down the street in the west wearing a hajib- you will get stared at no more or less than anyone else!!!
Lesbian and gay phenomenon is - as far as I am aware- as much as- if not more of a problem in the east as the west although this is kept hidden as it is not seen as acceptable. Throughout history there has always been this issue and this is a genetic problem not people being 'bored'. Some men and women have throughout the world and throughout history had homosexual tendencies. This will not change and you are burying your head in the sand if you believe it does not exist in the east- also I have heard that that is why some of the sexual tendencies with some muslim men with their wives - have a homosexual conotation- if you understand me!! I think it is just that the west is a generally more tolerant society and whilst the west has many faults I do think that the east could learn something from this particular trait- just as we could learn stuff from the east- regarding family life.
I appreciate your opinion and thank you for articulating in a polite manner in reply to my comments. I too want to do this. I do however, think you totally misunderstand the vast majority of what women are about!!
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: can u tell me what you based on in your openion ? is it a personal thinking or u based on something or some Imams u know said that.
No It's not my opinion that Qur'an does not say to women "cover your head" it speaks about covering the chest (chest line bossom for women)
As to the hadith from Sunan Dawud which says :daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asthma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of the body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands"
It's Abu Dawud who said it's Mursal ,The narrator who transmitted it from Aisha(RA) is missing and Khalid Duraik didn't see her.
quote: Please take care when u talk about something like that cause it make something its name (Fetna) i mean some musliums womans may take your words here as a basics to encourage them to take off or not wearing their hijab so u got a lot of bad deeds by this words and if u are not convinced go to any Imam and told him your openion and see what he will tell u and if u talk here just for Discusion and show your openion. please not make openion in something like that u don't know very well cause nor me nor u are Imam so we just read and try to understand and try to think and when we find something we are not sure about it we have to see whom is specialiest in this thing beside I told u it is not one of the biggest sin and can i ask u something. from the point of view that you are a good muslium and want purity and pious to all musliums ppl what is the need to see the Hair of the woman ? and what is the need to see her wearing short skirt even it is modest ? what will add to muslium scosity ? what will add to our faith ? what will add to our productivity ? what will add to our life generally ?
please don't tell me it is womans rights ... bla bla .. cause womans right is not in what they wearing
if u answer me in this questions i would be very thankfull for u
This is the impression I don't want you to take about me.I'm not someone who is calling upon women to take theire veil off ...Noway!
Veil happen to be a sign of modesty in our society whether I like it or not and I have sister who wears Hijab.
Mohd I said here before that I rarely discuss the topic of Hijab because the feedback may become similar to yours or some people (usually western)will make it looks like men are trying to impose a specific dress code for women though most women in Egypt wear head covering willingly and some even go agaist the wishes of there parents and wear it.
The Veil thing has never been a big deal untill recently. Muslims never had problems with it whether women or men and still they don't have problems (generally speaking).
In fact I don't like when some western people ignorantly keep ranting about Muslim men when in fact there as many women as those men who believe it's obligatory for them to wear Hijab and whether those men agree or not it wouldn't make much difference. I as men don't feel oppressed when some women speak about the Importance of Men's beard .
The point is as long as you believe that something is a religious obligation then you have the right to speak about it whether man or woman. That's why I believe you are doing fine by interevening in this discussion however someone like me who does not believe that Head covering is part of the Shari'ah I tend to stay away and let women decide for themselves (though there still guidlines about men and women kind of dress to be observed in Islam), I tend to intervene only when discussing the part about whether it's a religious obligation or not.
Hope this answer the rest of your question.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 08 November 2004).]
Western men have just had to learn to control themselves over time because they realise they see women in what muslim would consider 'underdressed' and they learn to deal with it and now it doesnt mean anything. Why can this not happen in the eat- problem solved!!!
Funnyy! Actually we have good control here.Unlike there,the word "virgin" is very common here!
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 08 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Fnnay! Actually we have good control here.Unlike there,the word "virgin" is very common here!
The word may be- the actuality is less so- from what I have heard of the 'repair jobs' being done. The control is being done by women in Egypt not the men- which was my point- this is not meant to be a personal hit or argument- just a debate as to why a man can justify that wearing a veil would stop him wanting to comit rape- I dont think there is ever a justification for commiting rape- but that is just the way I have been brought up- that if a woman says 'no' she has authority over her body to mean that and if a man takes that from her he should be severely punished!
quote: I have to say- in my opinion you have a total misunderstanding of women and their needs. Women do find men attractive to look at and they do fancy them - not just about touch it is a physical thing just like with men. They will look at a man and find him sexually attractive at times
first it is not my say who say that it is the phisc and i told u that in my previous post beside there is an evidence about what they saying look to any psychology study and see who is the clients for porno sites are most of them womans or men ?
quote:I do not agree that even if a woman walked naked down a street that there would be any justification for rape- that again is a lack of control on mens parts- unless a women says 'yes' to sex- she means 'no'.
I think that somehow not convince me there is a comman say here in Egypt (Don't but the match beside the fire) and i think if anyone share us in this example i will be thanked for him or her.
quote:Women are meant to be shy- who told you that? Women have different personalities just like men!!!
i am not talking about sick shy i am talking about the normal shy. that the man who suppose to make the first step in the relation u can ask your grandfather and grand mother about how they relation begin this values was in west since long time ago anyway it is not a main point in the subject
About homosexual and lesbian and gays i am not saying that it is only in west i said it is much bigger than in west more than in east and anyway it is a personal analysis could be right and could be wrong no evdience
quote:Originally posted by MohdAnwar: Dear Dalia I don't know why u taking this situation from me allthough your name is very dear to me really !!!!!
Would you mind rephrasing your question in proper English since I have no clue what you mean?
quote:4-About western men and why they not look to woman not same as eastern men simply.
-walk in Egypt in a group of womans wearing hijab and u wearing a short look to the men where they look at (They will look at u) then
Walk in Egypt wearing long, lose and decent clothes while around you there's a group of girls wearing tight jeans, tops and veils. Guess who's the one getting harrassed?
quote:Originally posted by Penny: Dear MohdAnwar I very much respect your posts and the kindly way you bring information to the subject. I am not trying to put you in the spotlight as a man but I think many women do want to understand why middle eastern men do not follow the code of their religion in dealing with ALL women respectfully. This is what is the route cause of so many problems between both western /eastern women and men.
Is it a matter of upbringing...then if so mothers have a part to answer for in this as well as fathers..... Or is it just a greater importance of sex in the mind of Eastern men. Is it that it is so hard these days for men to marry in their 20's.... Or are they not taught their own religion in schools..... Honestly many of us would really like to understand the reason behind this sort of behaviour.
What we need to think about is the arguments coming from both Muslims men and women who believe in Hijab. Both are similar in there views about Hijab the "eastern men" or "Muslim men" thing is unfortunatly one misconception which made a big thing out of Hijab by giving the impression that men are oppressing women here by telling them what to wear and what not to wear.
When something is believed to be a religous obligation then it's reasonable to expect seeing men and women speaking about it alike.Be it woman's Hibab or Man's beard(You may not know but some women do stress on men's beard and wouldn't even marry man with beard)
quote:Originally posted by sue333: I have to say- in my opinion you have a total misunderstanding of women and their needs. Women do find men attractive to look at and they do fancy them - not just about touch it is a physical thing just like with men. They will look at a man and find him sexually attractive at times.
Shsht ... why did you tell?
I find this idea of women being shy and delicate little flowers who never have any lustful thoughts when looking at a man quite intriguing ...
quote:Originally posted by sue333: The word may be- the actuality is less so- from what I have heard of the 'repair jobs' being done. The control is being done by women in Egypt not the men- which was my point- this is not meant to be a personal hit or argument- just a debate as to why a man can justify that wearing a veil would stop him wanting to comit rape- I dont think there is ever a justification for commiting rape- but that is just the way I have been brought up- that if a woman says 'no' she has authority over her body to mean that and if a man takes that from her he should be severely punished!
repairing job is not common here.I don't peronally know of anyone has done it.Also I was talking about Men since it's the point you wre trying to make.
Anyway, Egyot has many girls who are not wearing Hijab and yet they are not raped. I don't know why bringing the subject of gender into discussion when Men and women who believe in it simply find it related to woman's protection (not necessarly from being molested).Now whether there argument is wrong or right, the bottom line is it has nothing to do with men being out of control as it's something commonly believed by Women as well.
You will find Muslim men living in the west who believe in Hijab and wont go rape the naked dressed girls there.They are not out of control but the fact is I don't believe naked woman who says "I'm modest" It's not just word but also I know modesty is not only Veil.
There also other arguments about the veil held by women wwearing it like those who find it more relaxing and less stressful to wear it and not being very worried about how to be attractive everyday . Some will connect the veil with the innate nature of human being of "Hyaa" like the scholar here : http://www.monthly-renaissance.com/Mayq12y4.html
At the end Since your debate is about a logical reasons for veil then I think woman who wear it can tell you better and at the end you can just accept it as different traditions than yours.
I still ask the question- if it is so freeing to wear and is modest and stops people being judged by their beauty- why is it not expected that men wear the hajib? For the very same reasons!!!
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: You will find Muslim men living in the west who believe in Hijab and wont go rape the naked dressed girls there.They are not out of control but the fact is I don't believe naked woman who says "I'm modest" It's not just word but also I know modesty is not only Veil.
I do accept that it is about different culutres. I also wasnt the person who brought rape up as a means of justifying why the hajib is needed. The man was trying to say that by covering up it stops a woman ' asking for it' sexually- which I have to say is absolute rubbish. It shouldnt matter what is worn, if a woman doesnt want sex- she doesnt have it. No argument. Most societies would agree with that. I am only trying to portray an even view as at times on this board- people try to portray everything eatern as great (especially egyptian) and everything western as bad and that is not the case, and I am just trying to show that there are good and bad in all and reasons have evolved for both and we all should be tolerant of the other. Western women arent cheap- they just have a different culture. Many eatern women are independent and educated- however in both cases you can find sterotypes! I still believe there are issues regarding womens rights in the Middle East but Egypt is 1 of the countries who is moving forward the most- and that is the point we were trying to make here- that it is about womens rights to do what they CHOOSE to do rather than what they are expected or forced to do.
posted
Regardless of what anyone says, I have never found ANYTHING in the Qu'ran regarding the hijab (as used in its modern text) it is a post islamic invention. Even today village women don't wear the hijab, but some will still cover their hair with some headscarf that has been worn by them (village women) even long before islam.
Head coverings were not unique at all to the newly converted muslimas in the time of the Prophet. They were already being worn by Christians, Jews, Pagans, and non-believers alike, it was basically the 'look' of that time.
Which is why I dont believe this is a "commandment from God", HOWEVER, Harlots (prostitutes) were know to veil their heads and faces, and even expose their breasts to lure men. In the old testament this evidenced by the following verse:
Genesis 38 13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. 14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. 15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
..And this is long before the discovery of Islam. So I ask myself in my most rational mind why would Our Lord COMMAND us to do something that is not any different from that of a prostitute. It made more sense that modesty would consist of covering the BREAST as that is a very sensual and sexual part of the female anatomy, and that's how I personally took the verse.
And I also feel that a woman's face would appeal to men moreso than her HAIR. Typically a man is more likely to be lured by a beautiful face with her hair covered, than an ugly face, with the most gorgeous hair in the world (no ifs and and buts about it).
With that said, I would also like to add, and I said it before, that there is nothing in the teachings of the Qu'ran that advises men to "oppress" women, in fact they are advised to respect them. But I want to point out to some fellow Christians that are quick to blame "traditions" on religion, a verse in the Bible which CLEARLY looks upon women as being substandard to man :
1st Corinthians "3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."
..So there you are my dear Christians, right from our very own bible. SO we are surely not in a position to judge islam, but rather try to understand it and read the Qu'ran for ourselves instead of judging the behavior/traditions of people that call themselves muslims.
quote:Originally posted by DazedAndConfused: Have you ever approached one of those men who stare or hassle you. You would be amazed at how embarrassed they would suddenly get. They just don't know how to approach women.
Do you mean approaching as in "trying to talk to them"? Or what exaxtly is it that you are suggesting?
quote:Originally posted by melfenien: I know people who say that wearing hijab by Muslim women is not the symbol of devotion to God, but slavery to men. What do you think about it???
quote:Originally posted by katrina: That is a great point.
Again I would like to say that this point treats both sexs equally.....!!!!! Really! Men must not wear trousers. only at war a large one, covered by a long shirt, to be able to ride a horse. They must not shave their face because they looks so like women. They must not dress gold, they must not dress silk. They must not colour theit hair black (to look younger..)And I heared about that they should cover their hair with a piece of cloth..!! Their are rules for men, but the most do not like to realise them. Maybe because they find it too difficult. Netherless I have seen many men living this way, alhamdulillah. It doesn't mean they are better, but they are surely a step forward to 'garden'..? Wish me, my husband does like that one day.. Happy Eid
Posts: 83 | From: Zahraa El Maadi, Egypt | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
If Saudi women are the root of these misconceptions then who has actually spoken to any? Who knows if they are bothered by how they live or not? Also it must be remembered that you can't judge a religion by the people following it.
Allah knows we not 
Printer-friendly view of this topic