quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: You are not an expat, Ahmad. Try walking around with me for a few hours in Cairo and you will exactly know what I mean.
I am not ,I admit we have serious problem with staring but not that severe as you describe,I feel as if you are saying the Egys are staring at you the whole day and night!
quote:How should I define stare? The word is self-explanatory
staring at you the whole time! every time?
quote: Well, of course you have to say that. Weren't you just claiming a few weeks ago that harassment of women is not a problem, but only "isolated incidents"?
it is isloated and no one can deny that,go and sk the woman in the metro and they tell you exactly as i said
quote: by anxious Please don't insult my intelligence by implying I don't know racism and bias when I'm staring at it in its ugly face
I am not! but the word shokalata is not an insult !
nor will he be the last guy to recieve a fruit on his head in the souq (if you mean market to mean souq)
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
@ Ahmad. To add: I have an Egyptian sister-in-law whose family is from upper Egypt. Her skin is brown and she told me she has been teased and made fun of because of her color, all of her life. I also have a brown-skinned niece, whose mother is a white-skinned Egyptian. She also has to put up with taunting because of her color. Your experience is obviously not the experience of a person with color. Therefore, you really should not make comments on things of which you have no knowledge.
Posts: 45 | From: New Jersey, USA for Now | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: it they mean you are 2asal(honey )which means you are cute
And what in the world makes a random guy in the street think he has the right to approach me and tell me his opinion about me or my body? That in itself is rude and indecent.
I hear the 3sal / eshta / mozza / youresoubeautiful crap all the time, should I feel flatterned? Hell, no, it's absolutely indecent and disrespectful to approach a strange woman like that, period.
Exactly Dalia and Ahmad you should know this, would you like your wife to be approached in the street like this? I think you are not married but think for a moment that you are Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: I am not ,I admit we have serious problem with staring but not that severe as you describe,I feel as if you are saying the Egys are staring at you the whole day and night!
Let's put it that way -- it is not possible for me to go out on the street without being stared at. To me, that IS severe.
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: it is isloated and no one can deny that
It is a social disease that affects more than 80% of Egyptian women on a daily basis. Calling that "isolated incidents" means that you are in deep denial about the problem.
And, yes, I have talked to countless women -- foreign and Egyptian -- about this issue. Have you?
quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: Ahmad you should know this, would you like your wife to be approached in the street like this? I think you are not married but think for a moment that you are
Good point, cloudberry. If Ahmad had a wife or a sister coming home and telling him that she gets all those remarks, would he also shrug his shoulders and say "Oh, but that just means that you're cute."? Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: it they mean you are 2asal(honey )which means you are cute
And what in the world makes a random guy in the street think he has the right to approach me and tell me his opinion about me or my body? That in itself is rude and indecent.
I hear the 3sal / eshta / mozza / youresoubeautiful crap all the time, should I feel flatterned? Hell, no, it's absolutely indecent and disrespectful to approach a strange woman like that, period.
of course it is so rude if any man /boy tell you that
but the word 2asal are commonly used between any 2 persons,the word is freelu used ,it is hilarious and freindly way to address somebody but,of course it can be with a special tone and stress on the letters to implt harrasment
quote: by shah Ahmed keep in mind that, kids are cruel creatures to each other. If they call him as shokolata, I m sure they do it for ridiculing him and have bad intentions.
come on people! no one get upset form street boys.
they upset all Egyptians not only expats!
someday I was about to kick one of them
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: of course it is so rude if any man /boy tell you that
Thank you!
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: but the word 2asal are commonly used between any 2 persons,the word is freelu used ,it is hilarious and freindly way to address somebody
Ahmad, I don't need a lecture about the usage of those words. Of course there's a huge difference whether a good friend uses one of those expressions, or some lowlife dude on the street.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: I don't need a lecture about the usage of those words. Of course there's a huge difference whether a good friend uses one of those expressions, or some lowlife dude on the street.
this word "2asal "is commoly used in market and souq when the grocer do not know your name
I swear to god!
it is so common and I get it everytime I buy from someone I do not know
same as 3omda/basha/beeh/bashmohande/hag....a lot of words that are so damn street level
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: where did you get the stats?!"80%"
I posted them for you before.
SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN EGYPT
Experienced by 98% of foreign women visitors Experienced by 83% of Egyptian women 62% of Egyptian men admitted harassing women 53% of Egyptian men blame women for 'bringing it on'
Source: Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Anxious: Therefore, you really should not make comments on things of which you have no knowledge.
I know my country well!!
@dalia
where did you get the stats?!"80%"
Well if you know it as well as you claim you do, you have to know I'm telling the truth. I have no reason to lie. Like I said before, 'it is what it is'.
Posts: 45 | From: New Jersey, USA for Now | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The fruit incident did not take place in the suq. It was a supermarket. Mahmal's to be exact. When I went back to the store with my son and the rotten fruit and asked the manager why they forced the fruit on him, they could only say "sorry, sorry" with no explanation.
Posts: 45 | From: New Jersey, USA for Now | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Source: Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights
would you please give me the source link? is it for Egypt or Greater cairo?!
@Anxious
no one said you are lying!!
but people here really have to understand the street level culture,I was like you when I first cam to Egypt ,amazed and sick ,but this culture is only for the youth they use it in between ,you will hear a lot of strange words,
it is street level talk
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Anxious: The fruit incident did not take place in the suq. It was a supermarket. Mahmal's to be exact. When I went back to the store with my son and the rotten fruit and asked the manager why they forced the fruit on him, they could only say "sorry, sorry" with no explanation.
so weird!!
what is Mahmal's?
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Anxious: The fruit incident did not take place in the suq. It was a supermarket. Mahmal's to be exact. When I went back to the store with my son and the rotten fruit and asked the manager why they forced the fruit on him, they could only say "sorry, sorry" with no explanation.
so weird!!
what is Mahmal's?
Are you serious? You're from Cairo (according to what you have listed here). You know your country well. And you don't know what Mahmal's is? It is a supermarket. I've seen them throughout Cairo. This particular one is in Rehab.
Posts: 45 | From: New Jersey, USA for Now | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
What difference does it make? The incident did not take place in the suq (as if that matters). It took place in a chain supermarket. We don't need to continue to go back and forth over this. I've shared my knowledge on the topic. The reader can take from it what they will. Khalaas!
Posts: 45 | From: New Jersey, USA for Now | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ahmad, you can also google yourself, there is such supermarket chain as Mahmal. I had never heard of it but now google told me this Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
the whole smaple was 2020 .1010 for men and 1010 for women and take this, 337 from Imbaba and 336 from Shoubra so of COURSE they will get bad stats
the search was confined to Dokki and Embaba Masaken Ain Shams ,shoubra a sample fom such a a place ,what do you expect the result?!
here are the results
50% of the sample agree that women get harased
62% of males said that women with ages ranging from 19 to 25 are the most vulnerable
90 % of women has been harrased!
the definition of harassment is so wide as given in the study
the dress was NOT one of the basic factors upon which women are harassed!!!!
reaosn for this serious disatster in Greater cairo
1-unemployment 2-lack of religious teachings 3-some said it is the appearnce of women and their dress! 4-blaming media for spreading porn on TVs and also imploite TV ads
My personal notice ,I have read the report,I see that when the reseach said "wear Hijab and they point to the picture"they see that wearing hijab is something and wearing inapproperiate clothes is something else.in fact you could wear hijab and still dress inapproperiately
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: and I really doubt this research
the whole smaple was 2020 .1010 for men and 1010 for women and take this, 337 from Imbaba and 336 from Shoubra so of COURSE they will get bad stats
the search was confined to Dokki and Embaba Masaken Ain Shams ,shoubra a sample fom such a a place ,what do you expect the result?!
Believe me, you get harassed in other parts of Cairo just as well. Personally, I find Mohandesseen pretty bad, for example; men there are extremely aggressive.
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: the definition of harassment is so wide as given in the study
The definition was absolutely correct. If you want to downplay what constitutes harassment, that's your problem, it doesn't change the fact.
Sexual harassment is defined as "unwanted sexual conduct deliberately perpetrated by the harasser, resulting in sexual, physical, or psychological abuse of the victim regardless of location, whether in the workplace, the street, public transportation, educational institution, or even in private places such as home or in the company of others such as relatives or colleagues etc." ... The results of the study illustrate there is evidence within all three study samples (Egyptian women, Egyptian men, and foreign women) of seven forms of harassment, which are: touching, noises (including whistling, hissing noises, kissing sounds etc.), ogling of women's bodies, verbal harassment of a sexually explicit nature, stalking or following, phone harassment, and indecent exposure.
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: My personal notice ,I have read the report,I see that when the reseach said "wear Hijab and they point to the picture"they see that wearing hijab is something and wearing inapproperiate clothes is something else.in fact you could wear hijab and still dress inapproperiately
Seems it doesn't matter how many times it is being stressed that the fault is with the harasser, not with the woman -- regardless of how she is dressed. Your reaction is the typical reaction that has been described in the study too -- blame it on the women and their clothing.
If you had ever lived outside of Egypt, you would know that in other countries this sort of behaviour is very uncommon, no matter how women dress. I just spent a whole summer in Germany, walking the streets in knee-length skirts and tank tops. The first couple of weeks it felt weird to me because I'm so used to always having to be covered in Egypt. But then I started truly enjoying it because it's so nice to feel the sun and the air on your skin and not getting a single obnoxious stare or remark ever.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am sorry to say that I have noticed that here in Alex the level of harrassment does rise in the summer; and we all know damn well that these are kids [and not so kids] from Cairo, here on holiday. I too have been reduced to [almost] tears of rage. Cairo people are starting to get a bad reputation for their disrespect for women. Female Egyptian friends have come back from Cairo shocked and frightened by the sexual harrassment they have encountered. Make all the excuses you like, they are not all teenagers, they are not baladi, felaheen, upper Egyptian, or from Mars.
This is a recent development isn't it?
Egyptians simply do not understand that westerners have a total horror of racial and sexual harrassment. Calling someone chocolata is NOT the same as using the term honey! Nor is it funny. It is racial abuse! It is not a joke to have a Mercedes load of Marina druggies yelling 'Wanna f**k you' as they speed by. Nor is it a compliment.
Cairo needs to clean up its act. It has already made international news.
I prefer to judge Egyptians on the whole by the Alexandrians as I live here. Maybe being a coastal city, and its history make it a little more cosmopolitan and liberal. And I stand by what I said, I have met a few foreigners here who are black, or Indian etc and they all seem to be treated respectfully. Maybe they get insulted in Cairo. We ALL have a few stereotypical ideas about races we are unfamiliar with, but there is no excuse to think that just because you have watched a few MTV videos that we do not not expect respect. And Ahmad, try not to fall into the trap of trying to blame the victim. If you see a young girl or woman not wearing hijab, do you have an irresistable urge to throw her against a wall and grope her body in a busy street? No. I thought not.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I am sorry to say that I have noticed that here in Alex the level of harrassment does rise in the summer; and we all know damn well that these are kids [and not so kids] from Cairo, here on holiday. I too have been reduced to [almost] tears of rage. Cairo people are starting to get a bad reputation for their disrespect for women. Female Egyptian friends have come back from Cairo shocked and frightened by the sexual harrassment they have encountered.
I prefer to judge Egyptians on the whole by the Alexandrians as I live here. Maybe being a coastal city, and its history make it a little more cosmopolitan and liberal.
Interesting point. I went to Alex many times for business last year and was surprised how much more relaxed it was there. I would get an occasional comment, but overall the harassment was extremely low compared to Cairo. I even went for a walk downtown on a Thursday night with a friend (tall, blonde, European) and was surprised that we got nothing more than a few curious stares. In Cairo, that would have been impossible.
That said, we later sat down on the corniche for a sandwich and a talk and eventually had to leave because a group of low lifes wouldn't leave us alone. But that was the only really bad incident I've experienced there.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sorry to moan on about this [the name says it all!] but even my Egyptian friends here have a hard time grasping how very humiliating and frightening these incidents are. They have this movie fuelled mindset that we are all used to this kind of abuse. We have education about these matters. We have strong enforcible laws protecting women and racial minorities. We are not 'Bad Muslim women' and therefore fair game. On the whole, we are 'good Christian' women. We cannot be judged by our dress, nor should any person. We don't juge peoples' character, socioeconomic class nor education by their clothes or their fancy cars. If at all, we judge them by their behaviour. Worldwide, Egypt is being judged by their young men.By their behaviour. And this is overwhelmingly a Cairo thing. If/and when Egyptian girls are treated this way no doubt their husbands, fathers, brothers would be rightly outraged. If this happened to them when they holidayed in Europe, there would be national horror. [And a big slot on Al Jazeera!]
I know it is embarrassing to most of the charming hospitable people in this country, but denial isn't going to help.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: We ALL have a few stereotypical ideas about races we are unfamiliar with, but there is no excuse to think that just because you have watched a few MTV videos that we do not not expect respect.
Of course but we do not go shouting these ideas to every other person in the street, right? This kind of behaviour just shows how stupid some people can be. I mean if I thought that all blonds were stupid and brainless ( sorry all blonds, don't mean that) I do not say this to every blond I see when I go out.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just read carefully this saying - it indeed indicates that black is only half as beautiful as others?
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh, I don't think so. I think it means that if you have black skin, regarding beauty, you're halfway there. I don't know if this is going to sound racist [one has to be so careful] but there's no getting away from it, all the black people I have known, male and female, have the most incredibly soft skin. Like satin. And as bloody oprah says re wrinkles; "Black don't crack!"
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Believe me, you get harassed in other parts of Cairo just as well. Personally, I find Mohandesseen pretty bad, for example; men there are extremely aggressive
I know that Dalia,this is a God damn disease in Cairo and its suburbs,I will give you an example,last year there was a huge harassment in Mohandessen where approximately 80 guys harassed and touched(sorry to say the word) about 90 or 80 females in Mostafa Mahmoud square in Eid El-fitr (or perhabs it was in eid al2daha),police arrested the fackers,they were not from Mohandeseen they were from Bolak !!
do you get what I mean ?
Guys from Bolak and some dirty suburbs in Imabab invade the supposed high class suburbs even in downtown ,you do not find guys from Mohandeseen harass you but those who touch and really harass are from facked up places in Cairo and probably they are youth less than 25 years and unemployed
quote: If you want to downplay what constitutes harassment, that's your problem, it doesn't change the fact
The definition to my amazement includes Mo3aksa,which is often soft speak said to women such as "eih elgameel da" something hilarious like that ,this does not mean I support it ,but some women find it amuzing some others not
Remeber ,it is about Greater Cairo not anywhere else
quote: Seems it doesn't matter how many times it is being stressed that the fault is with the harasser, not with the woman -- regardless of how she is dressed. Your reaction is the typical reaction that has been described in the study too -- blame it on the women and their clothing
no no no no no no
I condemen the harasser but I see that the study ignores Deliberatley the way women are dressed todays,and I do not see any scientific track for the study how can 2000 be a sample for 20000000(20 million ) the sample is very small and do not include the whole City ,just 4 suburbs!!
quote: I just spent a whole summer in Germany, walking the streets in knee-length skirts and tank tops. The first couple of weeks it felt weird to me because I'm so used to always having to be covered in Egypt
it is not a muslim thing ,the whole society including copts support that women should dress approperiately ,this is an eastern society ,you can not do whatever you want!
"Anat 7or en lm tador"
"you are free unless you harm "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @Mo Ning Min E
quote: I am sorry to say that I have noticed that here in Alex the level of harrassment does rise in the summer
of course this is true because Cairo people go to Alex and north coat, I have gone with my feiends a lot of times but did not harass any women ! it is about teens and (sadly immature men too)
quote: baladi, felaheen, upper Egyptian, or from Mars.
falheen or baladi do not harass people ,they are poor kind people
quote:And Ahmad, try not to fall into the trap of trying to blame the victim.
I am not but let us do not forget that this is a preserved society and you have to look and dress in an approperiate manner.
for example,I desoise Niqab and Borqu and Also despise so much these strange tight clothes that girls wear ,these huge belts and ....so god damn wierd clothes !!
No one told them that there is a word called shyness and shameful!!
This is not an excuse for harassment ,Muslims are ordered to lower their gaze ,bith genders,but things are going out control in cairo ,and I do not know why might be because there is no social developmen!
govenment are making huge economical development but not social or religious! may be!
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: Ahmed quoted: We have an Egyptia proverb wich say :AlSamar nos Al-gamal:
which means"being a balck girl equals half of the beauty "
---------------------------------------------- Ahmed are you saying that this proverb 'shows' Egyptains love people of colour?
I think it is awful and most certainly sees black women in a negative way.
no no no no
it means if you are black then you are half way to the complete beauty ,the other half is morals and manners
there is another saying
"helwa bas habta" means "white beautiful but cold " also does not mean you are ugly it is proverbs said in special occasions
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I love those lovely ads on TV here. Are they Emirati? Giving advice on how young Muslim men should behave; [Respect for elders, helping strangers and so on] All in Arabic of course so I have to guess what's going on! Maybe some sort of campaign like that would help. Or at least alert the parents of these thugs to what's going on out there. Otherwise it will get worse. And damage tourism. And shame the vast majority of Egyptians who are charming.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
I have followed the above debate closely and I must say it does astonish me.
First, I truly believe that Egyptians are definitely NOT racists, they never were and they never will be.
I believe that you used the wrong expression to describe some of the major problems we face in Egypt towards females and foreigners.
The word you should use is “harassment” and not “racism”. I checked the definitions out on Wiki and found the following:
Racism: “Although the term racism usually denotes race-based prejudice, violence, discrimination, or oppression, the term can also have varying and hotly contested definitions. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups. The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines racism as a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular racial group, and that it is also the prejudice based on such a belief. The Macquarie Dictionary defines racism as: "the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others."
Now the word which I believe is more the right definition of what you are referring to:
Harassment: “Harassment refers to a wide spectrum of offensive behavior. The term commonly refers to behavior intended to disturb or upset, and, when the term is used in a legal sense, it refers to behaviors which are found threatening or disturbing. Sexual harassment refers to persistent and unwanted sexual advances, typically in the workplace, where the consequences of refusing are potentially very disadvantageous to the victim.”
When it comes to racism, you start looking more for rights, equal opportunities, freedom of speech … and all kind of this stuff. But when it comes to harassment you really think about people annoying others to demonstrate some sort of “power”. Either they feel inferior and thus try to use a stupid trait of someone else, or they use group power, … etc.
Now I would like to comment on the part where Egyptian males harass foreign women. Unfortunately the western media, and the behavior of a lot of western tourists have projected a pretty bad image about western females. Movies present the “getting laid” part as something that is super easy. Even advertisements degrade women to a sex object and not a human being. Sex tourism has become extremely wide spread in Egypt. Women totally ignore the cultural differences and allow themselves to lie topless or even nude on our beaches. All this made it very easy for the bad cliché of western woman being easy to get to spread. By the way, I do not defend this actions by the males, on the contrary I really find it disgusting. I had several incidents myself were I started a fight to defend some complete stranger.
Now my last comment: Please take care that what you see in movies or read in newspapers or magazines, or even see on street, this is not ISLAM. If you want to know about islam then get the right resources and start reading about it.
quote:And Ahmad, try not to fall into the trap of trying to blame the victim.
I am not but let us do not forget that this is a preserved society and you have to look and dress in an approperiate manner.
But most people do this and still get harassed! And I want to add, sometimes it seems one's (Egyptian's) public appearance can be so nice and decent and behind closed doors people can do anything. I hate that. It's doublestandard. At least many westerners do not hide if they're doing something "wrong", some Egyptians can do it but play so innocent and nice in front of others eyes and accuse others of something they are doing themselves
I might be talking about minority of Egyptians but they surely ruin Egypt's image and other good people's image in this country.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
This thread started about racism and then came the talk about harassment. I still think BOTH exist here! At least I see it. If someone (foreigner) is harassed because of his/her black skin color, what else is it than racism? And it is everywhere here so obvious, even between locals - many people prefer whiter skin, even when choosing a spouse! Some odd people even prefer their own whiter children over darker skinned children SOME!
quote:Originally posted by King Barbarossa: Now I would like to comment on the part where Egyptian males harass foreign women. Unfortunately the western media, and the behavior of a lot of western tourists have projected a pretty bad image about western females. Movies present the “getting laid” part as something that is super easy. Even advertisements degrade women to a sex object and not a human being. Sex tourism has become extremely wide spread in Egypt. Women totally ignore the cultural differences and allow themselves to lie topless or even nude on our beaches. All this made it very easy for the bad cliché of western woman being easy to get to spread. By the way, I do not defend this actions by the males, on the contrary I really find it disgusting. I had several incidents myself were I started a fight to defend some complete stranger.
But this is the same problem everywhere. Finnish people accuse foreigners (read: Muslims) that they come to our country and do not follow cultural rules.
And regarding movies and news; any wise person can THINK HIM/HERSELF and not believe you are "fed" via movies or one sided news. Movies are just that - movies - and they do not reflect 100% of everyday life. I mean if I watch Egyptian movies I do not automatically think that hey, this is what Egypt is like. Or if you read news about Egypt in my country you will get VERY one sided image of Egypt. People are given brains and they should use them
And I have learned A LOT about the world by watching TV, but not movies! So it is not alone the fault of movies but I think this is a question of education.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Now I would like to comment on the part where Egyptian males harass foreign women. Unfortunately the western media, and the behavior of a lot of western tourists have projected a pretty bad image about western females. Movies present the “getting laid” part as something that is super easy. Even advertisements degrade women to a sex object and not a human being. Sex tourism has become extremely wide spread in Egypt. Women totally ignore the cultural differences and allow themselves to lie topless or even nude on our beaches. All this made it very easy for the bad cliché of western woman being easy to get to spread. By the way, I do not defend this actions by the males, on the contrary I really find it disgusting. I had several incidents myself were I started a fight to defend some complete stranger.
I agree with that comment, I truly believe that western and Egyptian totally ignore the culture difference of each other, and this ignorance is kept alive by both western and Arab medias.
However I do not agree that Egyptians are not racist.
Don’t you know that in Europe if a western dare to say to a black that he looks like a monkey he or she can be jailed for that? ( even if the comment is said as it’s a joke).
Don’t you know that in Europe if a western dare to say to an Arab or black such comments he or she can be in serious troubles? : “ I m not racist but I truly feel that Arab and Black are living like animals, they sleep with everybody around like pigs and so and so….” I heard this comment many time coming out the mounth of Egyptians when talking about westerns.
I suggest that you read the article “ Dalia” has posted.
The U.S. television network ABC recently staged a scenario in which an actor worked in a bakery in Texas and refused to serve an actress dressed as a Muslim woman in a headscarf. The scene was an experiment to see if other customers would help the Muslim woman. Thirteen customers defended her by yelling at the clerk, asking for the manager or walking out in disgust. Six customers supported the bigoted clerk and 22 looked away and did absolutely nothing.
I cried when I watched that episode and I wonder now which Egyptian television channel would dare to stage such an experiment? And which Arab television channel would dare to stage a programme which so boldly looks at our racism and confronts us with the question “what would you do?” as the ABC show did.
I think on that one we really don’t have the same conception of being” racist”.
Posts: 1182 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe you are right, KB. But it is obvious that there is a colour bias here. Even amonst Egyptians. Darker skin is considered less desirable to many people. TV ads hammer us every day about the need to have artificially whitened skin in order to be successful. Come on... Smartass remarks to dark skinned people are common. Acceptable apparently as I am repeatedly told it is lighthearted. But to the ears of foreigners, who have been brought up since the 50's to be utterly politically correct regarding race issues, it sounds abhorrent. I know racism is on the rise in Europe again, because, mainly, of economic problems exploited by rightwing groups,most people are shocked by this. Calling a black youngster Chocolata may make bystanders laugh but it IS racist, and designed to hurt. I don't hear of anyone yelling 'Hey fatso!' any plump Egyptians. I live near the sea. I see many Egyptian tourist walking through our streets basically half naked. i would not do that here, nor in Europe. But due to my race I believe I am singled out for dirty talk and gestures. And I don't think anyone here is trying to link this to Islam.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: I will give you an example,last year there was a huge harassment in Mohandessen where approximately 80 guys harassed and touched(sorry to say the word) about 90 or 80 females in Mostafa Mahmoud square in Eid El-fitr (or perhabs it was in eid al2daha),police arrested the fackers,they were not from Mohandeseen they were from Bolak !!
I know about this incident. I also know about the one the year before which took place in downtown and was denied and downplayed by the government and the newspapers for quite some time. Don't you think that's outrageous?
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: Guys from Bolak and some dirty suburbs in Imabab invade the supposed high class suburbs even in downtown ,you do not find guys from Mohandeseen harass you but those who touch and really harass are from facked up places in Cairo and probably they are youth less than 25 years and unemployed
I do agree that on the Eid a lot of low class guys are coming out and having fun that way. But classifying the problem as one relating only to non-educated or low class people means denying part of the problem.
I said this many times on here before -- harassment is not only done by poor, unemployed, sexually frustrated, or low class guys. Rich guys, married men, university students, men in expensive clothes and cars etc. are harassing women just the same.
And, yes, many guys from Mohandesseen are harassing women too. I lived there for several years, and I walked to work and back every day, so I know what I'm talking about.
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: Remeber ,it is about Greater Cairo not anywhere else
First of all, greater Cairo means approximately 20 million people.
Secondly, harassment happens in other parts of Egypt too. I posted an article in the other thread which says that every travel guide about Egypt contains warnings to females about the harassment, that embassies are issuing warnings to their female employees and so on. It also stated that the harassment issue is going to negatively affect the tourism sector in the long run since women who travel to Egypt come back shocked, disgusted, and hating the country -- because of the harassment. And this is not a small issue but one that can affect Egyptian economics negatively in the long run.
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: I condemen the harasser but I see that the study ignores Deliberatley the way women are dressed todays
Quite the opposite, the study said that it does not matter how a woman is dressed, she will get harassed regardless. Which, by the way, corresponds with my personal observations.
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: it is not a muslim thing ,the whole society including copts support that women should dress approperiately ,this is an eastern society ,you can not do whatever you want!
I don't understand what that has to do with the point I made -- which was that this sort of thing does not happen in other countries where women wear much less clothing. It's the attitude of the men that is the problem. Focussing on women's dress will not help to solve it, quite the opposite.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: , harassment happens in other parts of Egypt too. I posted an article in the other thread which says that every travel guide about Egypt contains warnings to females about the harassment
in tourists' places ,but the probelm is not about Egyptians,westerners come to Egypt and forgot that this is a preserved society.
something else I want to ask you,egypt now has thanks to george Bush a lot of Iraqis,why they do not get harassed?
quote: Quite the opposite, the study said that it does not matter how a woman is dressed, she will get harassed regardless. Which, by the way, corresponds with my personal observations.
I do not beleive this in that study ,I know what I am talking about,clothes have a lot to do with harrasment.
I see some strange things in the study ,they say women who wear Niqab get harrased!!!
posted
Unbelievable Ahmad and so sad there are people thinking this way in Egypt - that's why it seems almost impossible that Egypt's harassing men will ever change. Even if tourism would stop and no westerners came, they would harass all the veiled Egyptian woman that are in the country.
quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**:
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: , harassment happens in other parts of Egypt too. I posted an article in the other thread which says that every travel guide about Egypt contains warnings to females about the harassment
in tourists' places ,but the probelm is not about Egyptians,westerners come to Egypt and forgot that this is a preserved society.
And it is also local women who get their share of harassment. Besides all tourists do not dress or behave 'wrong way'. So why do they think all tourists are alike? If I have met some stupid, stealing and cheating Egyptians should I then say you are ALL ALIKE??? Like I said, using one's brains is allowed!
I could go on but it is pointless to continue because this is like talking to a brick wall
One more thing: so if a woman in niqab said in an interview that she was harassed, are you saying she is a lier??? Belittling one's bad experiences is also one thing that annoys me, no one can tell how some other person feels about something!!!!!!!!! I have been discussing this many occasions with foreigners AND Egyptian ladies and one thing is a fact: men will NEVER EVER understand how it feels when it happens (harassment), NEVER. So don't even try Ahmad because it is something you have never experienced and you don't know the consequenses on personal level and your kind of thinking just makes it worse. I dress normally and do not even look at any men and always minding my own business. (Have to say Cairo is pretty fine compared to Luxor.)
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
but I have really negative views on what I see in hurgada and sharm about tourists of course in my heart I know there are some good people ,and I see them ,and I know some.
quote: Unbelievable Ahmad and so sad there are people thinking this way in Egypt
what way are you talking about?!
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
I did not say that I am not going to believe that women in Niqab get harassed,men themselves get harassed in this country ,I am not belittling anyone's experience
but Niqab women get harassed i have never seen this before ,besides I know that those who wear Niqab have a looooong tongue.
I will tell you a story happened with one of my friends ,4 years ago.
he was in the microbus standing and going back home after he finished college,he accidentally ht his bag in the women ,who is wearing Niqab.she said to him not to do that again but how!?he was standing it something he cant control . the second time she looked at him imaptiently ,the third time she shouted at him
I ,myself ,had really bad expiernce with Niqab women ,one of the worst happened to me while I was in the train .
really bad expeirnce and I do not want to mention it
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
@ King Barbarosa. I respectfully disagree with you. I know full well the definitions of racism and harassment, as I am an educated woman. To be quite honest with you, its both. As I stated before, I'm from the US, a land with many ills. With that said, I must also say that it was not until I came to Egypt that I experienced having my pocket picked, being groped (and I observe hijab), and having racial slurs hurled at me. Go figure.
I just came in from an outing with my brother and niece. We were downtown(I guess that is considered downtown) near the Opera House. We were walking along, minding our own business when a couple of boys thought it fitting to show their great hospitality by calling out "Africano" to us and running off laughing. Admittedly, they were a couple of teenagers, but in the area there were also a couple of young men I guess to be in their 20's, who thought it pretty amusing as they laughed about it among themselves. Is someone going to try to convince me that they were only showing love and affection and that Africano is a term of endearment?
The first step in correcting a problem, is admitting you have one.
Posts: 45 | From: New Jersey, USA for Now | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I still can not admit it is racism ,it is Harassement. I do not deny Harassement.it is harassement of the Egyptian tpye.
I used to get harassed worse than this when I first came to Egypt.
Harassement.
For racsim ,Egyptians are not racists,85% of the Egyptians are not white,so how could they be racists?
quote:Originally posted by Anxious: when a couple of boys thought it fitting to show their great hospitality by calling out "Africano" to us and running off laughing
that's what I am talking about,teens.
Beleive me it is Egyptian stupidity and it is called Tarya2a ,which kind of harassemnt
quote: who thought it pretty amusing as they laughed about it among themselves
this happens all the time,you laught the idiotic behavior,Egyptian Mentality not defending the behaviour,you get used to this stupid behaviour
quote: The first step in correcting a problem, is admitting you have one.
I admit it is harassement ,not racism
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ahmad. If you daughter/sister/wife/mother travels alone to UK for instance. and in the street she is persistantly subjected to young men calling out sexual remarks, pulling at her clothes and trying to touch her body; [Behaviour they would usually not dare to use against a woman of their own race]it will be ok for bystanders to laugh merrily and pretend it is not going on? Or maybe tell her that she should be flattered. Racial 'Harrassment' IS racism. Yelling 'Africano' is not a complement is it? Being 'African' is inferior to being Egyptian is it?
What scares women in Cairo is not the threat of verbal or physical assault [in the next few days of Eid there will be many of these I bet]but the worrying knowledge that it is unlikely that anyone will lift a finger to help. What will it take? Maybe Egyptians do not see themselves as racist. But they are proud to be a called sexist.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by messenger: To some extent, Blacks are discriminated against in Egypt and so are copts and other minority groups like gays, Baha'i to name two.
I highly doubt that that will be a concern for you, being a woman and foreigner will bring you more hassle than being black.
You know what is absolutely amazing! I am using a browser with a built in spell checker and it corrected for me the spelling of "Baha'i" and did not recognize "Copt". I find that fascinating.
Wow that really sucks! I find it rediculous that African Americans are disliked in so many places.
Wow can you read? The post wasn't necissarily about black Americans, we are not the only black people, and stop projecting your illusions that we are hated everywhere, America has improved much (legally, and just recently in her media) but may still be one of the worst places for that
Other than us i've never been but heard some Saudi's in a mall took an assbeating of their own decision by Afro American troops stationed at an embassy there for their racism and rudeness but many people don't like Saudi's anyway.
Anyway, practically everywhere else i've heard was better, many rural (non urban, "primitive")places even in Europe not thinking about race just "foreignness" (of course noticing physical appearance).
Yeah i know their are some gullibles who believe that whites have everyone's best interest and everything whites say or portray is just and true, fair and unbiased, but there are also cool people world wide.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: if you daughter/sister/wife/mother travels alone to UK for instance. and in the street she is persistantly subjected to young men calling out sexual remarks, pulling at her clothes and trying to touch her body; [Behaviour they would usually not dare to use against a woman of their own race]it will be ok for bystanders to laugh merrily and pretend it is not going on? Or maybe tell her that she should be flattered. Racial 'Harrassment' IS racism. Yelling 'Africano'
i think this is a good point to be talked about.
In Egypt ,we get used to be negative people,do not do anything.and Example of this,I think you head about the girl who was raped in the street and noone did anything?!
very stupid behaviour of the Egyptians not to hep the poor girl,but why?
It is the state of fair in this country,evryone is afarid of doing anything,The police managed to make evrybody in this country isolated .
Gangrabers are equopped with knifes and guns ,so no-one interrupt them . This view has reflected on all our life from politics till family ,and we used to be negative people.
Of course not all of us ,but most of us are like that,Egyptians are number 1 curses in this world,if they do not like anything ,they insult and curse you ,but no one do anything useful.
There is huge pressure on the Egyptians and things are changing
quote: Maybe Egyptians do not see themselves as racist. But they are proud to be a called sexist.
maybe this is true ,but I find it offensive when someone call me sexist,a lot of people are just like me
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Does anyone get tired of guys pulling up in their cars and masterbating in front of them or is it just me!!! 17 years in Egypt and nothing! All of a sudden I am subjected to that kinda stuff! I point at their bits and laugh telling them how small they are
I am used to the staring and the pathetic compliments.. fuller, mozza, gameela blah blah blah... In defense of the boys though grls also say these things and stroke my hair and skin!!!!
I understand Arabic well enough to hear what guys would like to do to me! Assuming we are stupid infuriates me!!!
I get called laban as I am pretty pale!!!
And as a foreigner why the hell should I pay more!!! I tell em to feck off! I rarely get conned now. Egyptians just ASSUME we are all rich!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: [QB] Does anyone get tired of guys pulling up in their cars and masterbating in front of them or is it just me!!!
When you finally get really sick and tired of it, take down their tag number, description of car and driver and go to the police.
A friend had something similar happen to her, and she did exactly that. The man was brought into the police station, beaten thoroughly in another room and then they brought in his mother and sister and told him he was to perform that same act in front of them. Whether this part occured, I dont know. He was then sent to jail for this lewd act.
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I tried to switch my camera phone on but was too late... I did drag some random dude off the street and pushed his head in the window... I also told him I would go to the police. One guy was about 60 the other about 16...
Now I have a new camera I am going to nail the next pervert.
Being told in Arabic they want to f*ck me also makes me livid... I am just thankful I can speak to them in their mother tongue and can insult themn quite sufficiently
Good on yer mate Laura...
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Ahmed are you saying that this proverb 'shows' Egyptains love people of colour? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
and most certainly sees black women in a negative way.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic