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Originally posted by Columbo:
Hey hassancheb if you are a woman, it is with the man that educated you i'm having a debate.

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A sexist? My favorite type of man! Now let me go change into my black widow spider man-eating costume.

You are having a debate with a self educated, refuse to accept anyone else's version of Islam before it took me 5 years of marriage to a muslim to convert, woman. I researched it thoroughly and continue to do so. In fact my husband born and raised muslim, refers to me about certain questions because he rarely reads the Koran. Now I have been a muslim over 15 years. Many converts are more enthusiastic than some that were born into the religion, because it's totally new to them. That coupled with the knowledge they already have of their previous religion, whereas most muslims seldom have studied Christianity or Judaism to comment on it.

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Originally posted by hassancheb:
A sexist? [This message has been edited by hassancheb (edited 15 October 2005).]

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This is a dangerous shortcut, you haven't meditated on my comment. Why don't you take a 5 minutes walk thinking about what have been written today?
You keep searching about islamic religion?
It seems to me you're too old to learn new things and to take in consideration points of views differing from yours.

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Originally posted by hassancheb:

Shakir's translation states 4:148
"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech unless (it be) by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. "

The key word is "unless", meaning "if" someone has wronged you, you have every right to speak hurtfully towards them!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Columbo:
This is a dangerous shortcut, you haven't meditated on my comment. Why don't you take a 5 minutes walk thinking about what have been written today?
You keep searching about islamic religion?
It seems to me you're too old to learn new things and to take in consideration points of views differing from yours.

You are talking just as if you were your own husband, as if you would have been raised in Islam. Think about it.

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Columbo, the fact that I "wasn't" raised in Islam should be evident enough that I have had different points of views. The fact that I am now practicing of my "own" choice and not by birth alone, should be clear enough that it is a path I discovered is best to suit my life and religious idealism. Unlike yourself and other self-proclaimed muslims, I don't choose to white-wash and "customize" islam to fit my lifestyle, I change my lifestyle to fit Islam, otherwise I am not submitting.

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Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hassancheb:
[b]
Shakir's translation states 4:148
"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech unless (it be) by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. "

The key word is "unless", meaning "if" someone has wronged you, you have every right to speak hurtfully towards them!

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Originally posted by hassancheb:
you obviously were trying to point out something to him, and I was simply pointing out something else.

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Originally posted by hassancheb:
Read surahs 4:138-139, it's in reference to a Muslim seeking honor from an unbeliever over a believer, which I was referring to MyKingdoms announcement that she had 10 times more respect for Kafir (an anti-Islamic non believer) vs. mohsen, a Muslim. Earlier I said she could have said she has little respect for both, but never would I give a kafir more honor than a Muslim, that would make me a hypocrite.
[/B]

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And??? What does this have to do with me? Why did you quote me that surah?
I only commented on your understanding of Surah 4:148 . You wrote the following in reply to Dalia:

"Whose translation is this?

Shakir's translation states 4:148
"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech unless (it be) by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. "

The key word is "unless", meaning "if" someone has wronged you, you have every right to speak hurtfully towards them! "

I was not commenting on the behavior of members here or whether they should support Kafir4rever or not. I only commented on your statement as it related to Surah 4:148

Actually it's not my "translation" it's Shakir's English translation.

Duhhhhh

I think you are trying to say my "interpretation". And yes this is how I "interpreted" it, in it's context. There is nothing else in the verses preceding it, nor succeeding it, that would clarify that it is only referring to slander. So this is your own interpretation, and I have mine. The verse says nothing about speaking ill "of" or "about" someone, it just talks about speaking harsh words publicly, rather you are talking "to" someone or "about" someone is a matter of interpretation.

No I meant the problem is with the translation you posted the one I referred to as "yours".
Any translation of Quran actually includes in it an interpretation of what the translator believed the verse actually means or implies. That is the whole problem with relying solely on translation. What you need is "Tafseer".

I'm sure you knew all that..........

Actually you contradicted yourself, by stating that you should not speak "unless" they have wronged you, meaning "after the fact", then in this case, you would be speaking in retaliation. Otherwise if you do it before the fact, then you are breaking Islamic commandments which said don't utter bad speech....."unless".

There's no contradiction whatsoever, read carefully. It's about fitnah/backbiting/slander.
You should not refer to someone as Liar unless h/she has lied to you. It's not limited to telling them to their face that they are liars but you can not talk about them to anyone else as liars unless they've lied to you. It has to come after the fact.
AND it is not a retaliation, you could be warning a friend about another or confronting someone who stole from you or whatever.

From the strictest viewpoint of the Law, the Prophet upon him blessings and peace, did mention someone's bad characteristics to warn others of the danger they represented. Another time he was reported to say: "Until when will you refrain from mentioning the wrongdoer [for the wrong they do]? Mention them so people can protect themselves from them!" or something to that effect.

So the prohibition of slander and backbiting excludes those that make no effort whatsoever to hide their transgressions nor are they repentent.

Furthermore, Allah Most High said:

Allah does not like the announcing of evil in public speech except by one who has been wronged; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. (4:148)

So the prohibition of slander and backbiting also excludes warning about a wrongdoer by someone that has been wronged."

"You have the right to defend yourself and establish your innocence of whatever you are accused of, and to denounce as liars those who accuse you of that; this is not regarded as the kind of gheebah (backbiting or gossip) that is forbidden. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"Allaah does not like that the evil should be uttered in public except by him who has been wronged" [al-Nisa' 4:148]"

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Originally posted by hassancheb:
Unlike yourself and other self-proclaimed muslims, I don't choose to white-wash and "customize" islam to fit my lifestyle, I change my lifestyle to fit Islam, otherwise I am not submitting.

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Well if you had a lifestyle that before you were converted was not compatible with Islam i understand you think you have to be "submissive".
For my part, i see myself as a humble man and try to stay this way and there is not contradiction between my lifestyle and Islam, although there might one be with your interpretation of Islam.
Islam fits with every kind of lifestyles, i bet you didn't read the whole board, i said the branches of Islam were forming a semi circle corresponding to men thinking types.

There is NOT ONE right type of lifestyle. Each of them is right in its style.
But i guess you are deaf to this type of thinking.

I am pleading for some relativism in conception of Islam, it is something you apparently are opposed to.

HELLO ! all the Muslims don't live, feel, interpret and apply their religion in the same way.

No one of us can have THE truth, and i feel some people are convinced they got it, just like horses wearing those things on the side of their eyes in order that they don't see what's going on around.

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Originally posted by Columbo:
I think when people defend their beliefs they are getting very intolerant in here.

No one of us can have THE truth, and i feel some people are convinced they got it, just like horses wearing those things on the side of their eyes in order that they don't see what's going on around.

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