you converted to Islam? For the ladies who did so anyway. Thing is I've been dating a girl here and she is just so stubborn Appreciate your input.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
If shes 'stubborn' as you call it, then shes not ready!! You trying to force her will not make it happen.
I assume you are 'dating' a girl and YOU are muslim? then thats first thing you are failing in, not supposed to 'date' are you
I was lucky as I had no muslims to *cough* 'guide' me and did the research for myself. Your friend is not so lucky as she now has muslims (or at least one, you) trying to convert her by 'telling' her YOUR Islam while not showing Islam in your actions.
Ask her to read Quran, if she then has questions be very careful how you answer them and do not go to hadith to answer. Quran speaks very clearly for itself and as a new prospective Muslim hadith are confusing and are a MANS point of view, and in my opinion spoil many things in Muslims and go against the logic, love and overall message in Quran. Quran is enough for anyone new.
try to dispell the 'normal' view of God. I mean the one about the big guy with a beard sitting on a throne up there! Get her to think about the universe, how massively incomprehensibly BIG it is, then explain that He created ALL of that and everything in it, this will help her to start thinking just what IS God and how BIG we are talking here, although we humans will never comprehend it fully.
harun yahya site has a brilliant video free to download about Creation of the Universe, I found that great. There are many others on that site too and some great kids books. I say kids books because they are simple and she is like a child learning Islam, learn first the concept of GOD. When she finally is awed by God the rest will fall into place.
A good lecture/talk is by Khaled Yaseen called 'What is the purpose of life and what do you really know about Islam' you can find this on a few sites or I have it on disc and would be happy to send it you.
Above all, do NOT rush her, she has to take her own time. Pray for her to be guided.
Posted by Guest Of Life (Member # 11462) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: you converted to Islam? For the ladies who did so anyway. Thing is I've been dating a girl here and she is just so stubborn Appreciate your input.
i had arguments with some friends, different religions,more than one time
Islam logically\spiritually speaks for it self so no matter what i said or they said it all fall together to one reason YET they wont accept it, bcs they need more than that, they need Allah to GUID their hearts to it
i remember one time talking to a friend also not convinced of what i am saying so i asked him to convince me of his religion and i will be follow if he could one thing he said "how can i convince you of something not even i believe" !!!!!
give her time, show her Islamic teachings in you and how you live your life as a muslim
good luck
Posted by Jamsie Cottar (Member # 9824) on :
Ayisha, I am so glad this member asked this question, if he did not then I would never have got your reply. Thank God I have found someone who feels the same way as I do. Everything you said mirrored what I think!!! I too have the hugest problem with hadith. It seems that moslems venerate the hadith more than the quran. The Quran can stand alone. It does not need all this rubbish explanation!! It just gets deeper and more confusing, but in a very negative way. I think being a convert it would be far easier to see this than moslem born. Can you give me some more good sites to surf. I need to find more stuff with this line of thinking, not the usual sheikh rubbish I have currently been listening to. cheers for logging in........... Posted by Jamsie Cottar (Member # 9824) on :
ayisha can I PM you?
Posted by Ya Ragal (Member # 11695) on :
Dating? How? What do you mean she's being 'stubborn' how? Are you trying to convince her to convert? Or trying to show/explain Islam?
Some women tend to be afraid of Islam due to the stories in the news that Islam does not respect women, they are forced to wear hijab, arranged marriages etc. Unfortunately this does happen but it tends to be confused between culture and religion.
Sometimes, no matter how much Islam explained to anyone person it takes time and may not always be embraced. You could open a subject to show her how Islam helps you in your life and lead by example, but don't force her, there's are lots of books that are available.
they send books for free for muslims and non muslims and are available in different languages, Al Azhar also has books.
Good luck and may Allah(swt) guide her.
Posted by Farouque akef (Member # 11793) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: you converted to Islam? For the ladies who did so anyway. Thing is I've been dating a girl here and she is just so stubborn Appreciate your input.
well you certainly can't force her these things just happen..but why do u care about her belifes so much?
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: you converted to Islam? For the ladies who did so anyway. Thing is I've been dating a girl here and she is just so stubborn Appreciate your input.
If that is one of your top priorities on your agenda, then this marriage is doomed to start with ... Mixed marriages are not for everybody.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
OK, how about cases where the spouse doesn't convert but agrees to bring up the children as Muslim ?? Any cases of the sort ?
Posted by Madame M. (Member # 8386) on :
Albino_Eskimo is the one to ask about that.
Posted by ' Sharon Stone ' (Member # 5169) on :
Katanagah, why don't you look for a woman of the same religion as you?
I don't force anyone to believe in what I do, neither he can force or expect me to do the same, however - my future one will have to learn my culture, traditions, customs and way of life because all my children will be raised the way I was.
I already told my Dad that no matter whom I marry my last name ( his last name ) will be kept and I doubt if I will ever take anyone elses, and that is to preserve my ancestors. I will also try to have all my kids my last name while having the father name only on birth certificate.
This is not written in the stone, so some good guy who is crazy in love with me could present me his case why should I do differently, however I am pretty strong about this and he better have great argument otherwise I'll push for my culture 105%. Posted by gentle_giant (Member # 10863) on :
First off, dude, I'm not sure you understand what sharing your life with a woman is all about.
Secondly, Aisha, you've matured in so many ways. Damn, want smilies but went the quick reply option, thumbs up anyway.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
It just happened. That's all I can say. Probably why I was discussing destiny the other day. I tried to break this relationship 3 times already... Thing is, she lived in Egypt as a child/young teenager. She doesn't have the best memories of either the people or the culture. She is traumatized by the constant harassment she got on just stepping out the door to school or shopping or whatever. She actually forced her family to send her to Canada for college. She carries that spray thing in her bag, never takes taxis ... etc. Not that she was abused or attacked at all, but she was just made uncomfortable all the time. She just hates anything that has to do with Levantine culture.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
thanks GG Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: you converted to Islam? For the ladies who did so anyway. Thing is I've been dating a girl here and she is just so stubborn Appreciate your input.
STUBBORN ??? is that a joke? Imagine if someone wanted you to convert, think you would be stubborn? Why force something, that's the worst thing you could do ! ?
Posted by ' Sharon Stone ' (Member # 5169) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: It just happened. That's all I can say. Probably why I was discussing destiny the other day. I tried to break this relationship 3 times already...
To accept anything new requires time and time. Find someone who has similar values and you will have better relationship.
When people say they will not convert but children can - I AM NOT SURE ABOUT THAT. It doesn't sound to me right. How can you decide for your kids and reject the same thing for yourself - if you believe something is right and good, why don't you believe it for yourself too? And if you don't, then why do you put your children through something you don't agree and believe on?
Also some people although coming from very different places can have many things in common so be open but still more similarities in way of life and Integrity is crucial.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by katangah: you converted to Islam? For the ladies who did so anyway. Thing is I've been dating a girl here and she is just so stubborn Appreciate your input.
STUBBORN ??? is that a joke? Imagine if someone wanted you to convert, think you would be stubborn? Why force something, that's the worst thing you could do ! ?
Actually, I'm not trying to make her convert at all; all I want is her acceptance to bring up the children as Muslim. That's what she's stubborn about.
Posted by gentle_giant (Member # 10863) on :
For her sake, let it go. She may end up in an igloo.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
Oh well, relationships suck! Thanks everyone for the input. Cheers.
Posted by Lazeez (Member # 10655) on :
Not all of them but yours definitely sucks. It's the kind of relatioship you can't do anything about except running away. It's not impossible though to work out, I knew someone who hates Israel and Israeli and got married to a hard Israeli zionist girl, I can't figure this out but will difinitely ask him about it once he gets out of prison.
All I can tell ya, is you seem like a smart guy -though for a while i fancied u as a smart gurl- and you deserve really smart one not someone like "THAT"
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
Just for the record, she is not a psycho. She is a very smart, intellectual strong minded girl. Got tons of friends. She basically introduced me to the social scene here. She just happens to be the kind that turns heads and you can imagine what that would be like in Egypt. Also she does have many reservations with regard to the culture it’s just that she considers that the harassing behavior the pinnacle of it. Anyway, I do understand that part of her being afraid of making compromises is the fact that I broke up with her 3 times. I myself can't seem to work it out in my head. However, I thought I should check how people deal with this kind of situation here as my family can't provide much support in that regard. They don't mind me marrying from here but of course as long as the children are Muslim. It's just so much of a headache. I have to admit that I'm a spoiled bastard after all that hate the idea of settling down but that girl got me thinking as she is the only that makes me miss her. But I know as well that all wither away eventually. Also, I don't want to be one of those cases that end up in court fighting for custody. Once again thanks all for your input.
Life goes on long after the thrill of living is gone..... cheers. cheers.
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
Maybe there is a lesson in here. As long as you don't accept her for who she is and you're children as the result of the upbringing of the both of you there will be no blessing in marrying her. She seems not the kind that will be wiped out easily. I don't understand men that want a good and strong woman and next to it wipe herself and her background away for his sake. To me there is no romance in a stubborn man. I would not feel loved and appreciated. Marriage should add something, become a new blend of life taken from both you're paths in life, the life you build together.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by katangah: you converted to Islam? For the ladies who did so anyway. Thing is I've been dating a girl here and she is just so stubborn Appreciate your input.
STUBBORN ??? is that a joke? Imagine if someone wanted you to convert, think you would be stubborn? Why force something, that's the worst thing you could do ! ?
Actually, I'm not trying to make her convert at all; all I want is her acceptance to bring up the children as Muslim. That's what she's stubborn about.
but you're only dating?? why do you want them to be brought up as muslim when you don't even follow the rules, dating are you? Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Can you give me some more good sites to surf. I need to find more stuff with this line of thinking
I'm not Ayisha ... but here are some links you might find interesting.
Ha Ha Ha!! Excuse me, This is Insane. Even Some muslims believe this too...OMG, This is totally illogical.
If you want to truly know about Islam and the source of legislation.. YOu can visit this site http://sultan.org The sites that Dalia's posts are launched by crazy and stupid minds...
quote:The Quran can stand alone. It does not need all this rubbish explanation!! It just gets deeper and more confusing, but in a very negative way.
You are totally mistaken.. God ordered us to follow Hadith What do u mean With" rubbish explanation"??
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: Ha Ha Ha!! Excuse me, This is Insane. Even Some muslims believe this too...OMG, This is totally illogical.
If you want to truly know about Islam and the source of legislation.. YOu can visit this site http://sultan.org
The sites that Dalia's posts are launched by crazy and stupid minds...
So in the 40 minutes that passed between my post and yours you had time to research the contents of all those links?
You might not have noticed, but she explicitly asked for sites like the ones I posted. What she makes of it is up to her, I don't think either you or me have the right to tell her what she's supposed to read and think.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
I'm guiding her to the right way.. I know that lots of muslim scholars are waffling and ignoring lots of Verses...
My role is to guide and not delude.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: I know that lots of muslim scholars are waffling and ignoring lots of Verses...
Interesting you would say that, since I usually observe this phenomenon in the articles you keep posting.
I have asked you repeatedly(!) why some scholars whose fatwas you recommend ignore important verses from the Qur'an and use weak ahadeeth that contradict Qur'anic verses instead (for example here), but you have always avoided and ignored that question, I assume you either have no answer or you don't like to think about this. So if I were you I would be a bit more careful with statements like the above.
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: My role is to guide and not delude.
Yeah, the FGM thread is ample proof of that. Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
Oh Dear, i dont hide any thing. which question do u mean?? What r u talking about??? can u explain it in points and dont use long posts plz to let me focus. Thanks in advance
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
I wasn't talking about FGM by ur definition i was talkinng about different type and this is medically useful. I explain it to u several times and I wonder how u dont understand it. it's very simple.
Stop accusing people without knowing and understanding them clearly..Dont judge anyone without understanding.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
It's not my responsibility that u are not understanding my posts correctly although it was clear to anyone.....
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: It's not my responsibility that u are not understanding my posts correctly although it was clear to anyone.....
What was "clear to anyone"? I haven't seen a single person agreeing with your opinion that female circumcision is "an Islamic duty and brings medical and psychological benefits".
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: It's not my responsibility that u are not understanding my posts correctly although it was clear to anyone.....
What was "clear to anyone"? I haven't seen a single person agreeing with your opinion that female circumcision is "an Islamic duty and brings medical and psychological benefits".
I explained my points accuratley. I explained the confusion among the different types of Female circumcisons. I explained every thing for any simple person to understand... I explained what I mean with the word " circumciosn".I pointed out some medical benefits of my definition of circumcion and YOu confirmed me the medical benefits when u said that doctors had made it before banning it due to people ignorance.
You are not a gynecologist to understand all these complicated topics. I cant explain it to your mind because u lack lots of basics that enable u to understand this special topic correctly.
Posted by POW (Member # 11450) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: It's not my responsibility that u are not understanding my posts correctly although it was clear to anyone.....
What was "clear to anyone"? I haven't seen a single person agreeing with your opinion that female circumcision is "an Islamic duty and brings medical and psychological benefits".
sultan.org did express his opinion clearly , whether anyone agrees or not it doesn't mean he's right or wrong its just an opinion. And it doesn't worth running after him with a hammering post just to claim he's wrong all the time.
[it is just my opinion and you don't have to agree with it]
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: YOu confirmed me the medical benefits when u said that doctors had made it before banning it due to people ignorance.
Please don't twist my words!!! I have NOT confirmed anything of that sort, neither has any of the texts I posted, particularly not the one by Amnesty International you are referring to here.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by POW: whether anyone agrees or not it doesn't mean he's right or wrong
That's correct. But the point was that he suggested everyone agreed with him except for me which was simply not true.
quote:Originally posted by POW: And it doesn't worth running after him with a hammering post just to claim he's wrong all the time.
Err ... I posted a few links for another member wherupon islamsweden/sultan jumped on me and tried to pooh-pooh me. So who's running after whom? Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by POW: whether anyone agrees or not it doesn't mean he's right or wrong
That's correct. But the point was that he suggested everyone agreed with him except for me which was simply not true.
quote:Originally posted by POW: And it doesn't worth running after him with a hammering post just to claim he's wrong all the time.
Err ... I posted a few links for another member wherupon islamsweden/sultan jumped on me and tried to pooh-pooh me. So who's running after whom?
I noticed that you are deluding people spreading such Links. I have to reply on what i saw. Simply the links Dalia'd posted are man-made mix of Religions.. Some people Are manufacturing new religion and Dalia is adverstising for that...
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: YOu confirmed me the medical benefits when u said that doctors had made it before banning it due to people ignorance.
Please don't twist my words!!! I have NOT confirmed anything of that sort, neither has any of the texts I posted, particularly not the one by Amnesty International you are referring to here.
I'm not twisting your post and you know that. I asked you what were the reasons that doctors made that operation from the beginning.. It's logical that Doctor knew the benefits of that operation and made it. It was obvious after reading your paragraph that Government banned it because of people's ignorance and illiteracy and not of the uselessness.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: I'm not twisting your post and you know that. I asked you what were the reasons that doctors made that operation from the beginning.. It's logical that Doctor knew the benefits of that operation and made it. It was obvious after reading your paragraph that Government banned it because of people's ignorance and illiteracy and not of the uselessness.
Yes, you are twisting my posts and I don't like that since I do NOT want to be associated with anything or anyone who promotes FGM.
I explained to you why Amnesty International tried to "medicalize" the practice of FGM (see quote below) and that it has nothing to do with AI recognizing any so called "benefits" of female circumcision. If you go on AI's website you will see that they condemn and fight any form of this practice.
If you think it's the opposite, then please bring me any quote from AI or the WHO that says FGM has any sort of benefit. That should settle this misunderstanding once and for all.
Besides, I already explained the purpose of "medicalization" to you several times, you chose to ignore that because it contradicts your claim that FGM is a great thing!
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
the strategy to have the procedure carried out by medical professionals instead of midwives or barbers has a very simple reason; it's an attempt to at least limit the number of cases with very serious consequences, pain and death that occur if it's done the traditional way and without any medical equipment:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
The involvement of medical professionals in FGM undermines the message that FGM denies women and girls their right to the highest attainable standard of health. Most activists are strongly opposed to medical involvement in FGM and argue that official policy should always be complete eradication. The World Health Organization (WHO) takes a very strong stand against the medicalization of FGM in any form.
quote: it's an attempt to at least limit the number of cases with very serious consequences, pain and death that occur if it's done the traditional way and without any medical equipment:
Let me ask a Question
have doctors carried out the traditional FGM ( Like the idiots do)themselves???
I cant believe it. Can doctors harm people themsleves??
It's clear and logical to my mind that doctors didnt make it by your definition of FGM. they make the benefical type of it which I explained in the other thread.
Anyway, I'm against all kinds of female circumcison except the type that science and religion show its benefits.
I hope my point is clear to you.
best regards
Posted by Albino_Eskimo (Member # 11479) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org:
Anyway, I'm against all kinds of female circumcison except the type that science and religion show its benefits.
and what is the percentage of women who would benefit from this?
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo:
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org:
Anyway, I'm against all kinds of female circumcison except the type that science and religion show its benefits.
and what is the percentage of women who would benefit from this?
My Ideas are based on Medical researches and Hadiths verses( although some scholars see these verses are weak)
I contemplated these hadith verses and the medical researches, I found out the following:
1- Prophet Muhammed didnt mean the type of FGM which idiot stupid people were making.. He meant the benefical type( which Lots of Gynecologist are making nowadays)
2- prophet Muhammed explained the operation to modern Gynecologist in an accurate way.. ( i see this is one of his miracles that prove his prophecy)
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: Can doctors harm people themsleves??
Sexual conformity at the point of a knife is being forced on women whose genitals are declared not "normal" -- with devastating results
Big clitorises aren't allowed in America. By big, I mean over three-eighths of an inch for newborns, about the size of a pencil eraser. Tiny penises, under one inch, aren't allowed either. A big clitoris is considered too capable of becoming alarmingly erect, and a tiny penis not quite capable enough. Such genitals are confounding to the strictly maintained and comforting social order in America today, which has everyone believing that bodies come in only two ways: perfectly female and perfectly male. But genitals are surprisingly ambiguous. One out of every 2,000 babies is born with genitals that don't elicit the automatic "It's a girl!" or "It's a boy!" Many more have genitals that are perceived as "masculinized" or "feminized," although the child's sex is not in doubt.
The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends surgically altering these children between the ages of six weeks and 15 months to fashion their bodies into something closer to perfection. Everyone can then breathe easier, except for the child, who may well spend the rest of her or his life trying to let the breath flow easy and full through the fear and shame created by such devastating surgery.
On a November night in 1958, I was playing in the bathtub in the cheery, country home of my childhood. I was six years old. My mother came in and sat on the edge of the tub, her kind face looking worried. I glanced up at her, wondering, "Time to get out so soon?" She told me that I had to go to the hospital the next day for an operation. I knew this was about something between my legs. My chest felt tight and there was a rushing sound in my ears. I begged not to go. Please. But my mother told me only that I must. Not a word was said about what was going to happen or why. The next day, it took the surgeon 30 minutes to make a U-shaped incision around my half-inch clitoris, remove it, and put it in a specimen dish to send to the lab. He then closed the wound and stitched the skin up over the stump.
Take no comfort in the fact that this took place 40 years ago. Today, most parents and doctors in this country are still unable to see that a child has a right to her or his own sexual body, even if that body is deemed "abnormal" by their standards. If a parent is uncomfortable, a doctor can be found who will be willing to make irreversible changes in the child's body, in order to ease that discomfort. My gynecologist told me about a case in which he had been involved the year before: A woman brought her five-year-old daughter to his office in Minneapolis; the mother felt that the child's clitoris was too big. He examined the girl and assured the mother that her daughter would grow into her clitoris, which was no longer than the end of his little finger. The mother left. A few weeks later, he was called into an operating room to help another doctor who had run into trouble during a surgical procedure. On the table, he found the same little girl he had seen earlier. She was hemorrhaging from a clitorectomy attempted by the second doctor, from instructions he had read in a medical text. My physician stopped the bleeding, and managed to keep the girl's clitoris mostly intact.
It is not new in our culture to remove or alter the clitoris. Not so long ago, such surgery was commonly practiced to prevent masturbation and "unnatural sexual appetites." Although such justifications still lurk in the minds of parents and doctors ("Won't she become a lesbian?" is a concern of many mothers whose daughters have big clitorises), clitorectomies gained new status toward the end of the 1950s, as a "legitimate" way to make a child with atypical genitals feel and appear more normal. Surgical techniques learned during World War II led to advances in the field of cosmetic genital surgery; at about the same time, a new medical discipline -- endocrinology, the study of the hormonal system -- was established at Johns Hopkins University Medical School. A child's body could now be successfully altered by surgery and hormones to look just about any way you wanted it to look. And the controversial research into sex and gender roles by Johns Hopkins' John Money, Ph.D., led doctors to believe that by changing that body, you could make the child into a "normal" male or female, both physically and psychologically. Children could be made "right" if they were born "wrong." And American medicine, and our society at large, sees "imperfect" genitals as wrong.
That view is challenged by farsighted pediatric urologist Justine Schober, M.D., of Erie, Penn.: "Why should we say that, because this is a variation, that it is a wrong variation? If all their faculties work, their sexual sensitivities work, why should we presume that their body is wrong?" But by seeing a child's body as wrong and by labeling such a child "intersexed," we turn a simple variation on a theme into a problem that can and should be fixed. And fixed it usually is, by surgery that sacrifices healthy erotic tissue for cosmetic reasons some five times a day in the U.S. The rules of the game are still the same as they were 40 years ago: Erase any sign of difference, tidy things up, and don't say another word.
After I had my clitorectomy, my innocent life became filled with fear and guilt. The secrecy surrounding my surgery began to undermine my entire sense of identity. I knew I had had something between my legs cut off, and I could imagine only that it was a penis. Girls were Barbie-doll smooth, so there wasn't anything on a girl to cut off. Was I really a boy? Or perhaps the horrible thing I had somehow known about forever: hermaphrodite? The study of my father, a physician, was full of medical books, but I flipped through them quickly, drawn to the pictures of children with their eyes blacked out, knowing there was something we shared, yet terrified to find out what kind of freak I really was. Then, one night when I was 11 or 12, I found my parents, as they sat at the dining room table, looking at studio pictures of my sisters and me. My mother held up my photo and I heard her say the word "boy." My gut heaved. I was a boy. It was true. I blurted out, "What was that operation I had?" My father turned to me and said, "Don't be so self-examining." I never had the heart to tell this man who loved me so dearly that, by keeping the truth from me that night, by trying to protect me from my own wondering mind and wandering hands, he had sentenced me to a life of almost crippling fear in relation to my sexuality, even to a profound doubt of my right to be alive.
It would be 25 years before I could begin to start asking questions again. When I finally pressed my dying father as gently as I could for a reason why he and my mother wanted my clitoris removed, he said, "We didn't want you to be mistaken for a hermaphrodite." My father was a surgeon. No doctor had patronizingly spun to him tales of "improperly formed gonads," or lied to him about my medical condition, or told him I would become a lesbian if I had a big clitoris, or pretended that no other children like me existed. Just having a child with an abnormal body in Rochester, Minn., was bad enough for my parents. But doctors do lie -- to parents and to children, in a gross insult to their intelligence and their right to the truth. Lying to children is a rule strictly adhered to, and enforced, by all but the most enlightened doctors. First the surgery steals your body from you, then lies confirm that there is so little respect for you as a human being that you don't even deserve the truth.
X Marks the . . .
Angela Moreno was a happy child growing up in the late seventies in Peoria, Ill. She was fairly sexually precocious with herself, and became very familiar with her clitoris: "I loved it, but had no name for it. I remember being amazed that there was a part of my body that was so intensely pleasurable. It felt wonderful under my hand. There was no fantasy, just pleasure -- just me and my body." Life in the pleasure garden came to an abrupt end for Angela when, at age 12, her mother noticed her protruding clitoris while Angela was toweling off after a bath. After being examined by her family doctor, she was sent to an endocrinologist. The endocrinologist revealed to her parents that, instead of the two X chromosomes that characterize the female genotype, Angela had an X and a Y. She was "genetically male." She had the external genitalia of a female because the receptors for the "male" hormone testosterone did not function; that is, her body was unable to respond to the androgenizing or masculinizing hormones it produced. Her parents were assured that if surgeons removed Angela's internal testes, and shortened her clitoris, she would be a "very normal little girl," albeit one born without ovaries or a uterus. This was lie number one.
Just because your body may look "normal" is no guarantee that you will feel that way. The truth is that the very thing surgery claims to save us from -- a sense of differentness and abnormality -- it quite unequivocally creates.
Doctors then told Angela's parents that if she didn't have surgery she might kill herself when she found out that she was different from other girls. It had happened to another patient, the physicians said, and it could happen to Angela. Although such speculation is not a lie, it is also not the whole truth. In my talks with scores of people with atypical genitals, it is those who have been surgically altered as children and left alone with their trauma who most often become suicidal. The isolation from others who have experienced what we are going through, the loneliness, is what kills us. Angela's parents were justifiably frightened and agreed to the surgery.
The final lie was to Angela herself, with her distraught parents' complicity. She was told, at her physicians' suggestion, that her nonexistent ovaries could become cancerous and that she would have to go into the hospital and have them removed.
In 1985, at a leading children's hospital in Chicago, doctors removed the testes from Angela's abdomen. The clitoris that had brought her so much joy was not merely shortened, it was all but destroyed. She woke up and discovered the extent of the deceit: "I put my hand down there and felt something like the crusty top of some horrible casserole, like dried caked blood where my clitoris was. I wondered why no one told me and I just figured it was the kind of thing decent people don't talk about." Angela became depressed and severely bulimic. "I blamed my body. My body had betrayed me. Made me someone worthy of that kind of treatment. I just studied and puked." She was a straight-A student in high school, but otherwise, her adolescence was a nightmare. She avoided becoming close to other girls her age, afraid she would be asked questions about the menstrual period she knew she would never have. The uncomplicated sexuality she had reveled in before the clitorectomy was gone, and she was desolated by the loss of erotic sensation. In an attempt to find out the truth, she returned to her original endocrinologist, who told her that her gonads had not formed properly, and her clitoris had grown because of an abnormal level of hormones. She did not tell Angela about her XY status or her testes. Angela fell deeper into darkness, sensing that she had not been given the whole story. Finally, at 20, weakened by chronic and near-lethal bingeing and purging, and suicidal, she checked herself into a psychiatric unit.
After her release, she began seeing a therapist who finally hit on the connection between her bulimia and the control she lost over her body at the time of surgery. Angela knew she had to find out the mystery of her body in order to get well. By now she was 23 and could legally obtain her medical records, yet it took a year for her to find the courage to write for them. When she received them and read the truth about herself, she could begin at last to save her own life. "Although the doctors had claimed that knowing the truth would make me self-destructive, it was not knowing what had been done to me -- and why -- that made me want to die."
In my case, I have XX chromosomes, and my outsized clitoris was the only part of my body that was not like that of most other girls.
Do these facts make you want to differentiate me from Angela? To say, "Wait a minute. You were simply a girl born with a big clitoris, but Angela had a real pathological condition." But the doctors removed Angela's clitoris for exactly the same reason they removed mine -- they thought it offensively large. Her chromosomes and her abdominal testes had no bearing on the decision.
If you rush to see Angela as fundamentally different from me, if you see her as a real intersexual and me as just a normal woman, you do two very damaging things: You may see it as justified to perform cosmetic surgery on her and not on me because she really is "abnormal," and you separate us from each other and deny our right to find solace and strength in the sameness of our experience.
The doctor who was kind enough to help me begin to explore my early surgery did just that to me. I found the Intersex Society of North America on my own several months after my initial visit with him, and told him later how healing it had been to find others who knew intimately what my life had been like. He had known about ISNA all along, he said, but didn't pass the information on to me because I was not intersexed. I was a real woman. He had tried to save me from a pathologizing label, but ended up enforcing my isolation instead.
New and Improved?
When a baby is born today with genitals that are ambiguous, a team of surgeons, pediatric endocrinologists, and social workers scramble to relieve what is called a "psychosocial emergency." Tests are done and orifices explored to determine as nearly as possible the baby's "true sex." Then, in almost all cases, doctors perform surgery to make the child look more like a girl, because, they say, the surgery required is easier to perform than trying to make the child look like a boy.
The form this feminizing surgery most often takes is the dissection and removal of healthy clitoral tissue -- a clitorectomy, also known as "clitoral recession," "clitoral reduction," and "clitoroplasty." Sensitive, erectile tissue is stripped from the shaft of the clitoris, and the glans is tucked away so expertly that all you see is the cute little love button that is the idealized clitoris. But the pleasure is almost gone, or gone completely, for the owner of that dainty new clit. If orgasms are possible, and they aren't for many women subjected to clitoral surgery, the intensity is greatly diminished. One woman whose clitoris was "recessed" writes: "If orgasms before the recession were a deep purple, now they are a pale, watery pink."
Doctors maintain that modern surgery retains more clitoral sensation than the older forms of surgery, but they base their assurance on nerve impulses measured by machines -- supposedly accurate and unbiased information -- and not the real experience of thousands and thousands of women in this country. This is because no long-term post-surgical studies have been done. I, who had the old-style surgery, have clitoral sensation and orgasmic function, while those subjected to more modern surgeries often have neither. How much do doctors truly care about a child's sexual future if they decimate the one organ in the body designed solely for pleasure?
In 1965, Annie Green, then three years old, took a car trip with her father from the small town in Idaho where she lived to Spokane, Wash. She sat in the back seat with her stuffed animal, unaware that she was on her way to the hospital. The next day doctors removed her inch-long clitoris. She was never given any explanation of her surgery. As she got older, her attempts to find pleasure in masturbation failed, and she began to suspect that she was very different from other girls. Then, during a visit to her sister's house as a teenager, she found the book Our Bodies, Ourselves: "I studied the female anatomy and read about sex from that book. That was when I learned I didn't have a clitoris. I remember looking at the diagram, feeling myself, and reading what a clitoris was over and over. My God, I couldn't figure out why I didn't have one. I couldn't fathom anyone removing it if it was that important. I was stunned, and I held it all in. I was only 14. I became depressed. I was disgusted with my body, and I thought there was no hope that I would ever be loved by anyone. I became a little teenage alcoholic. I drank heavily every weekend. I really blew it because I had been a really good athlete and an honor student."
Clitoral surgery on children is brutal and illogical, and no matter what name you give it, it is a mutilation. When I use the word mutilation, I can hear doors slamming shut in the minds of doctors all over this country. John Gearhart, a pediatric urologist at Johns Hopkins, has said, "To compare genital mutilation of young girls in Africa to reconstructive surgery of a young baby is a giant, giant leap of misrepresentation." But neither Dr. Gearhart, nor anyone else, has ever bothered to ask those of us subjected to clitoral surgery as children if being taken to the hospital without explanation, having your healthy genitals cut and scarred, then left alone with the results feels like mutilation or "reconstructive surgery." Gearhart's mistake is to judge surgery only by the surgeon's intent, and not by the effect on the child. I spoke with a woman recently who is young enough to be my daughter. With great effort, she told me of her clitoral surgery as a child. She implored me, "Why do they have to cut so deep, Martha? Why do they do that?"
Of the notable feminist voices raised long and loud in outrage over traditional genital surgeries practiced in parts of Africa, which are now denounced as "female genital mutilation" (FGM), not a single woman has said a word about the equally mutilating practice of surgically destroying the healthy genitals of children in their own country. Like Gearhart, they shrink when we describe our surgeries as mutilation. But do they believe that African mothers, any more than American surgeons, cut their children out of malicious intent? Could their silence be because they don't know what is happening in American hospitals? It's possible, but this issue has received media coverage in the past year, and many of them have had the facts explained to them in person or in writing.
I could speculate that these women don't want to take on a foe as formidable and familiar as the medical profession, and that it is simpler to point fingers at more barbaric countries. They may not want to dilute their cause with the sticky subjects of sex and gender that surround the issue of ambiguous genitalia. Or perhaps they don't want to be aligned with children they can only see as freaks of nature. Even the liberal-thinking Joycelyn Elders, the former Surgeon General, refers to children who blur gender lines in a less-than-humane way. When Elders, a professor of pediatric endocrinology who continues to promote "reconstructive" surgery for girls with big clitorises, was asked about the wisdom of genital surgery on such children, she responded with, "Well you just can't have an it!"
Each woman has her own reasons for turning away from this issue. But I challenge them to pay attention to the fact that in hospitals just down the street in any big American city, five children a day are losing healthy, erotic parts of their bodies to satisfy a social demand for "normalcy." There is no Federal ban to save them. The surgery is left out of the law against FGM because it is deemed "necessary to the health of the child on whom it is performed." But as social psychologist Suzanne Kessler at the State University of New York at Purchase points out, "Genital ambiguity is corrected not because it is threatening to the infant's life, but because it is threatening to the infant's culture."
Doctors and parents believe society will reject a child with atypical genitals, and the child is made to pay with her or his body for this shortcoming of our culture. What is happening in American hospitals to healthy children is just as mutilating to the bodies -- no matter how exquisite the surgical craftsmanship -- and violating to the souls of these children as FGM. And frequently, the surgical craftsmanship falls far short of exquisite.
The strict sexual agenda for bodies in America extends to little boys as well. To grow up to be a real man, a boy will have to be able to do two things -- pee standing up and penetrate a vagina with his penis. If a little boy has to sit like a girl to urinate because his urethra exits somewhere along the shaft of his penis rather than the tip (a condition that can occur in as many as 8 out of 1,000), he may be subjected to many disheartening surgeries over the course of his childhood to correct this "defect," and be left with a lifetime of chronic infections and emotional trauma. And if the baby is born with a "too-small" penis that doctors decide will never be big enough to "successfully" penetrate a woman, physicians will probably make him into a "girl" through surgery and hormone treatments, because, in the words of one surgeon, "It's easier to poke a hole than to build a pole."
In the 40 years since surgical intervention to "correct" genitals that are viewed as abnormal was first prescribed, treatment protocols have rarely been questioned. After all, it is much more comfortable for doctors to assume all is well than to start digging around to find out if it's really true. Until recently, all discussions of what is done to people's sexual bodies have been hidden safely away in the pages of medical texts, where real lives are only "interesting cases," and pictures of genitals are disembodied curiosities or teaching tools. Many doctors would like to keep things that way. For example. Dr. Kenneth Glassberg, a pediatric urologist associated with the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), insists that people who speak up and tell their stories are doing a disservice by "scaring patients away."
In a blatant disregard for patient feedback not seen in any other medical field, the AAP still advocates early surgery and insists that the "management" of children with atypical genitals has improved over the past several decades. Their refusal to consider the reality of the lives of people who have been treated by this protocol can be likened to an astronomer gazing at Mars through his telescope while ignoring the real live Martian tugging at his sleeve. The messy truth of what happens to children treated with surgery and hormones is simply ignored by the AAP, as they stubbornly cling to a treatment paradigm that has never been anything but experimental.
Cosmetic genital surgery on children is out of control. As the practice has careened along unexamined for decades, illustrious careers and reputations have been made, consciences have been swallowed, and terrific damage has been done. For a doctor even to hesitate before operating takes tremendous effort and self-reflection. The need for babies to have genitals that look typical has been perceived as so unquestionable that surgeons travel all over the world to perform surgery on children free of charge as a "humanitarian gesture."
Dr. Justine Schober challenges her fellow surgeons to realize that "when you do [this kind of] surgery on someone, you are responsible for them for the rest of their lives." In less than two hours in a sterile operating room, a child's personal and sexual destiny can be changed forever. The stakes are excruciatingly high for the sake of appearances. Angela's story, Annie's story, and my own tell only the smallest fraction of the terrible fallout from these surgeries. No one is naive enough to say that a life in a body seen as abnormal is a ticket to bliss. But it is not the bodies of these children that are wrong, it is the way people see them. And if these children grow up and want to change their bodies one day, that will be their right. Nobody, but nobody, no matter how loving, no matter how well-intentioned, should have the power to steal precious parts of a body from a child before she or he even gets started in life.
Anyway, I'm against all kinds of female circumcison except the type that science and religion show its benefits.
and what is the percentage of women who would benefit from this?
My Ideas are based on Medical researches and Hadiths verses( although some scholars see these verses are weak)
I contemplated these hadith verses and the medical researches, I found out the following:
1- Prophet Muhammed didnt mean the type of FGM which idiot stupid people were making.. He meant the benefical type( which Lots of Gynecologist are making nowadays)
2- prophet Muhammed explained the operation to modern Gynecologist in an accurate way.. ( i see this is one of his miracles that prove his prophecy)
I asked for a percentage.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo: I asked for a percentage.
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org:
Most of women dont have this large size. So, this operation doesnt concern lots of women...
I dont say that every female needs this operation.. I see that there is a need for it in some cases...
So the physicain is the one who decide if she need it or not.. I heard lots cases need that.
I'm talking about some women who have large abnormal clit . It doesnt concern lots of women here whose clits are normal.
There's a need to make this sunna circum. for some women especially in hot countries.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
I dont know it
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
Medical Studies
An artist’s rendering of the surgery is available here:
Although several reports by physicians prior to or shortly after the turn of the 20th century are sometimes cited and discussed by critics of hood removal, to the best of my knowledge, there have been very few published modern medical studies or reports by doctors who perform this form of surgery. All of those that I have found, however, report a striking percentage of those who had the procedure done experience enhanced sexual enjoyment.
1. Dawson, Benjamin E., “Circumcision in the Female: Its Necessity and How to Perform It.” American Journal of Clinical Medicine 22.6 (June 1915), 520-523.
A very early medical report of hood removal, claiming all kinds of clinical (and psychological) benefits. This article can be found at an anti-circumcision website.
2. Morris, Dr. R. O. Fifty Years a Surgeon. (London?), 1935.
Surgically removed many clitoral hoods to treat “preputial adhesions.” Dr. Morris noted a “frequent finding” of the clitoral glans “undeveloped and buried beneath an adherent prepuce. I investigated and found that because of the irritation caused by preputial adhesions, both boys and girls require circumcision in equal numbers” (160).
3. McDonald, C. F. “Circumcision of the Female.” General Practitioner 18.3 (September, 1958). 98-99.
Claims to have performed “circumcision” on “perhaps 40 patients,” including some adult women. Among the adult women who underwent the procedure, “Very thankful patients were the reward. For the first time in their lives, sex ambition became normally satisfied” (98). However, McDonald’s procedure actually does not remove the hood, but instead stretches it to the point where “It is seldom that the prepuce will overgrow again once it has been opened” (98). In other words, the effect of McDonald’s stretching technique is essentially the same as removing the hood. This article may now be found online at an anti-circumcision website.
4. Rathmann, W. G. “Female Circumcision, Indications and a New Technique.” General Practitioner 20.3 (September, 1959). 115-120. This article is now available online at a pro-circumcision website, and also at an anti-circumcision website.
Sent out a questionnaire to women whose hoods he had removed, and received 112 replies. Of the 72 women who reported having never experienced an orgasm prior to the surgery, 9 [12.4%] reported continued failure to achieve orgasm; 64 [87.6%] reported successful achievement of orgasm after the surgery. Of the 39 who reported achieving orgasm only with difficulty prior to the surgery, 5 [12.5%] reported no improvement; 34 [87.5%] reported improvement after the surgery. Rathmann provides a number of indications and contraindications for the surgery, and invented a new clamp for the procedure.
5. Wollman, Leo. “Hooded Clitoris: Preliminary Report.” The Journal of the American Society of Psychosomatic Dentistry and Medicine 20.1 (1973), 3-4.
Provides a “Statistical analysis of one hundred cases.” Not clear whether the statistics Wollman reports include all one hundred women (32 of whom did not receive the surgery—see below) or a statistical report of those who were clitoridotomised. In this study, he reports the frequency of sexual intercourse before treatment as 3 times per week on average; after treatment as 5 times per week on average. 49 women were able to attain orgasm prior to treatment; 92 after. 92 subjectively report improvement in intensity of sexual response, rapidity of sexual response, and/or greater number of orgasms; 7 subjectively report no change, and 1 subjectively reports being worse off. The longest time since treatment was 20 years; 64 patients were followed up after 5 years since treatment. The treatment occurred in Wollman’s office 98 times; in the hospital (at patient’s request) 2 times.
6. Wollman, Leo. “Female Circumcision.” The Journal of the American Society of Psychosomatic Dentistry and Medicine 20.4 (1973), 130-131.
Reports on one hundred consecutive patients referred to him by psychoanalysts and clinical psychologists. “Sixty eight benefited by surgical female circumcision: of the remaining thirty-two, twenty-eight showed no need for this procedure; four refused to be treated by this technique.”
7. Crist, Takey. “Female Circumcision.” Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality 11.8 (August, 1977), 77.
Reports on Crist’s hood removals on of fifteen women, and provides a list of four conditions for when the surgery would be indicated: “a) they could achieve orgasm only by masturbation and/or oral sex, b) they could have orgasm in the lateral or female-superior positions only, c) they stated, “it feels good, I get there, but suddenly it’s over.” d) they had a positive cotton-tip test, where patients felt a distinct difference when a cotton-tipped applicator was applied directly to the clitoris when the foreskin was retracted as opposed to application to the foreskin” [77]. Crist’s study concludes, “Patients who have undergone this procedure have generally commented that they have enhanced sexual response.”
8. David Haldane, “Clitoral Circumcision.” Forum (UK), 1990 (?), 41-43, 49.
Haldane interviews several women who had their hoods removed, and several doctors about the procedure. Those who have actually undertaken studies (as opposed to simply expressing opinions) include the following:
Dr. Stanley Daniels, who had performed hundreds of these surgeries. Daniels says that the surgery isn’t for everyone, and refuses to perform it on about half of those who request it. In those he does agree to perform the surgery on, however, Daniels claims that “a large percentage report a ‘significant increase’ in the level of sensation and satisfaction in their sex lives after the operation” (42).
Dr. W. G. Rathmann (see [4], above), who repeats his results and recommendations from his published article.
Dr. Leo Wollman (see [5] and [6], above), whose articles are cited and whose results are reported.
Constance Knowles, a marriage and family counselor, whose interest in the procedure began with her own hood removal in 1972 (for which, see Personal Reports in Print). Knowles was undertaking a long-term study of women who had the surgery and reported 75% as saying that the results were “significant and lasting improvement in their sex lives,” and “25% [who] reported no long term positive effects.”
It is interesting to note that Haldane quotes one critic of the surgery, Dr. Leon Zussman, who claims that removal of the clitoral hood is not necessary because women get all the sensation they need from “the motion […] transmitted through the labia to the hood and then from the hood to the clitoris” (42). Zussman seems oblivious to the fact that many women find this form of indirect stimulation inadequate and unsatisfying. Zussman goes on to warn that “Theoretically it [hood removal] could even be detrimental to sexual response,” but honesty requires him to add, “I am not willing to say that I’ve seen cases in which it [hood removal] has been [detrimental to sexual response]” (42). He does claim, “we have seen many women who have undergone the procedure and most of them admitted that it just doesn’t do much” [42]. Given the abundance of personal and medical reports to the contrary (which this web site is dedicated to making more readily available), one wonders how accurate Zussman’s impressions of what “most” women who had their hoods removed have to say about the results they have achieved from the surgery.
9. Krista Foss, “New Hot Cosmetic Surgery for Women,” Toronto Globe and Mail, Tuesday, November 10, 1998.
The text of this article is given here. Scroll to almost the bottom of the page.
Foss reports on a Toronto surgeon named Dr. Robert H. Stubbs, who performs various kinds of sexual enhancement surgery. Most of the article is about labiaplasty, but it is clear that Dr. Stubbs also performs hood removals. Dr. Stubbs is reported as saying, "Some women report to me they have had an orgasm for the first time after I have unhooded the clitoris.”
There is a website for Dr. Stubbs’s practice.
On the Web page, Dr. Stubbs shows some examples of his surgeries:
Before and after pictures of a “clitoral unhooding” (which seems also to have included a labiaplasty).
Before and after pictures of a “genital enhancement” (which seems to have included both a labiaplasty and at least a partial removal of the clitoral hood.
10. Dr. Irene Anderson contributed a report of her own hood removal to this website, and also reported the following results of nearly a hundred hood removals she performed in her surgical practice in Mexico:
I had it [her own hood removal] in November 1991. The reason was that I never had a vaginal orgasm, so I wanted to improve the sensitivity of my clitoris, releasing it from the hood. The result is great. Regarding my patients, the success rate was very high. I had nearly one hundred surgeries of that type, and only three patients were not satisfied by the result. I recommend the procedure to every woman, especially those who are not able to have vaginal orgasm.
Comparison of the Glans of the Clitoris with the Glans of the Penis
11. Scott, F. Brantley. “Nerve Endings in Glans Clitoris vs. Glans Penis.” Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality. 15.7 (July, 1981), 88.
Several arguments—some by famous sexologists (see, e.g. W. H. Masters, V. E. Johnson, and R. C. Kolodny, Masters and Johnson on Sex and Human Loving, 1986, 32-3)—have been published over the years claiming that the removal of the clitoral hood should not be compared to the removal of the male foreskin, on the ground that the clitoral glans was much more sensitive to stimulation than the male glans. This claim is repeated as fact by several self-identified “experts.” Scott’s brief answer to a question sent to the journal would appear to count against any such claim: “Anatomic studies have shown that on a per centimeter surface area, the number of nerve endings in the glans clitoris is equal to that in the same surface area of the glans penis” (88). The same evidence would seem to support the surgical removal of the clitoral hood, for women who find its presence has the effect of dampening stimulation, on the simple ground that the clitoral glans is so much smaller, and thus offers less opportunity for stimulation than does the male glans.
Posted by Albino_Eskimo (Member # 11479) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: I dont know it
Then unless you want to create an official registry of women who have had FGM done according to proper religious and scientific merits or need to have FGM done, then you really can't say its necessary at all.
And by the way I noticed all your arguments and your corresponding "factual evidence" is in english, which says to me you are a revert or someone who wasn't raised in an Arabi speaking country.
I love how someone turns to Islam in order to control women instead of dealing with their relationship demons.
things like you sultan.org is reason why Islam gets such a bad reputation and attracts the worst reverts possible. A huge insult to Islam. And I wonder how long you'll be Muslim. Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
When WHO shows this facts and these researches, You will remember my posts...
I already believe in Prophet Muhammed teachings. Even WHO doesnt delare it, I already believe in prophet Muhammed... I dont wait till WHO or whoever teach it to me.. I already have a teacher who had taught people 1400 yrs ago till this day.
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
Sultan you don't want to get it or you just can't. You just don't mess with a child's sense of bodily integrity unless lifethreathning medical need. You don't own the body of you're child. You don't compare it to grownups that report sexual advantages (what is in a man's mind anyway) but of no interest to a child who would not dream of having his genitals messed with to perform better? It is a grownups fantasy. Maybe it is in the lack of psychological separation that comes with groupidentity compaired to personal identity, till this day Egyptian parents are more prown to decisions on behalf of their grownup son's and daughters then western parents would be. Since we grow out of this type of identity where the boundaries are more blurred then we feel today, it is difficult to reason about it. Parents do make decisions for children but they need to understand the position of the child fully and not project their own personal interests on the child. And when children mature you guide them to make their own decisions in their personal interest, not yours. A difficult matter in all circumstances but key here.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: I already have a teacher who had taught people 1400 yrs ago till this day.
Well, great! The prophet Muhammad did not advocate any form of female circumcision and there is no report of any of the females in his household being circumsized. So just go ahead and follow his example.
Posted by ' Sharon Stone ' (Member # 5169) on :
Is this another FGM topic?
We should built a statue in the shape of clitoris and award it to most passionate members about FGM on this message board.
Posted by Ya Ragal (Member # 11695) on :
This is intresting, I remember a few years ago when I read about the rites and rituals and came across, a sentence that women have to undergo circumcision, I asked my husband if this was correct, He told me It means only a tiny piece, but it is not a 'MUST'.I have girlfriends who aren't circumcised as their fathers refused to consent this operation being conducted on their children and they are doctors. I have other girlfriends who were circumcised and they are not happy in their intimate realtions with their husbands as they could not be satisfied.
There is a big difference between removal of a clitoral hood, (which doesn't effect the size of it, it only uncovers the more sensitive nerve) and actually removing the clitoris which would take away a good portion of the most awesome sexual feelings.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
What the hell??? How the hell did my thread turn into a discussion of women ginitalia???? This is just sick and stupid!!!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: You are not a gynecologist to understand all these complicated topics.
Are you a gynaecologist? Did I miss something? LOL.
Oh, and I'm sorry, I forgot that I only have a female brain. So of course I can't understand complex topics as easily as someone with a superior male brain, such as you, isn't that what you're saying?
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
I’m angry that my thread was hijacked to serve a discussion about a different topic – of all to be female circumcision
I was hoping to get some advice here. I was looking for those who made the transition to give some insight on how it all came about. How were their thought process at the time? Did they have any pre-conceived prejudice in advance about the culture and how that changed?
Anyway, I knew that the relationship was doomed from the beginning. However, you don’t have this kind of connection with somebody very often. For example, when you mutually feel each other’s presence in a place when you have no idea that is the case … things like that. But that’s life anyway.
Now, some are asking how come I want the children to be Muslim while I don’t stick to the rules myself. She asked the same question of me. I do stick to the rules. For example, she gets furious each year when Ramadan comes and I stop seeing her during. But I understand that would be taken as hypocrisy. I don’t see it this way. Let me explain.
Islam to me was not something I was just born into it. I chose it. I spent three years of my life studying it (16-19). I wanted to make up my own mind. By the end of it, I became a sort of an expert in comparing religious beliefs between the three main monotheist religions. Not only did I study the text but the historical background of each mission. How the teachings related to the living conditions and beliefs of the time of the mission. I looked at them from a purely religious point of view (matter of belief), scholar point of view (matter of history and sociology) as well as philosophically (matter of human prescription of the universe).
I still remember the time that I just felt in absolute content to be a Muslim as I gained more and more knowledge. How I felt to be blessed to follow the steps of the prophet. That’s why there is no force upon earth that could turn me away from it. It’s not only a matter of belief, it makes sense to me.
Now, back to sticking to the rules thing. How many of Muslim scholars out there have studied the evolution of the Islamic message during the life of the prophet. How many Islamic clerics teach Muslims about the laws of “Nasikh wal Mansoukh” for example. Moreover, how many chose to ignore certain incidents and events cause they might lead to “FITNAH”.
Let me give you an example, “SIRAH EL HALABY”. The most comprehensive. It mentions the following incident. As the prophet returned from a “GHAZWAH”, he ordered the army to stay out of town for a night before going on. The story goes that some disobeyed and went in, only to “SEE WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE DISLIKED OF THEIR WOMEN”. Go read it. It’s there. They were human. He didn’t go in and prosecuted the women. On the contrary, he chose to stay out to avoid unnecessary conflict.
What I’m trying to say is that the prophet was not a fanatic. He was more human than any who walked the earth. He focused on what makes sense to the “Umma”. He warned of unnecessary debates and over complicating things. Just keep it simple stupid.
We can’t afford to be debating issues of Hijab and circumcision anymore. We should be debating issues like forms of government, rights of minorities, building an economic model (a comprehensive one not scams or half-assed attempts like the ones I read in college).
I guess you could consider me a liberal Muslim. That would be ok. Only that I believe that liberalism is the foundation of Islam. Islam was born in Arabia, a very liberal and pragmatic environment. In their harsh lands, the Bedouins just can’t afford to over-complicate life.
I could go on and on about this. I just wanted to give some hints into my thought process, why this relationship was such a dilemma for me and why I was angry to find the thread hijacked for the discussion of circumcision of all topics.
Note: I believe my anger should be directed toward Sultan as he/she started this whole thing.
Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: I’m angry that my thread was hijacked to serve a discussion about a different topic
What do you think *I* should do then?
Hara-Kiri myself in the ass?!!
Posted by Lazeez (Member # 10655) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: This is just sick and stupid!!!
Looks like specific inviduals can't get enough of running after each other in Religion forum.
Sick indeed
Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: I was hoping to get some advice here. I was looking for those who made the transition to give some insight on how it all came about. How were their thought process at the time? Did they have any preconceived prejudice in advance about the culture and how that changed?
If you really want to know about the thought processes to the transition to Islam, I can give you some idea about mine, but I am not sure how helpful it would be, as everybody who comes to Islam follows an individual path that is made up of so many different aspects, not only of their beliefs, but of their life experiences and circumstances. It's Allah who guides, people just act as helping hands along the way...or in some cases the opposite.
On my journey to Islam, I personally would avoid anyone who I thought would remotely try to persuade me to become a Muslim, and definitely those who looked "religious", but that was because I wasn't looking for a religion for myself, just for answers to questions that arose while I was living in a Muslim country. I was happy with my way of life and satisfied with my beliefs, and I certainly didn't want to change the way I lived.
The only people I would talk to about Islam were the non-practicing Muslims, i.e. the ones in the bars who weren't praying or adhering to anything other than avoiding pork and maybe fasting in Ramadan. They just answered my questions in a theoretical way, with a half-hearted rider about the possibility of me becoming a Muslim, but definitely no pressure. If there had been any pressure, I would have turned round and walked away and never looked back.
This part of my journey I think is perhaps one to take note of, as many westerners do not like to be pressured into anything, especially if they have not decided to go down a particular path themselves. We need to assimilate ideas and if we gradually get there by ourselves that's ok...it's then our choice.
If you let her lead the way in asking questions and don't try to persuade her, you might have more luck and won't find her so "stubborn". Take a lesson from the Seerah...did the Prophet (peace be upon him) try to make his uncle say his shahadah? No, he gave him the information and gave him space to make his own choice. This is where the verse comes in, that "There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in tāghūt and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."
I feel that if she asks about Islam that you let her know the truth about Islam, as you understand it, then that is as much as you can do for her, the rest has to come from her.
Posted by Ricochet (Member # 11551) on :
the girl isnt stuborn her see katanga is a fool/ hypocrite.
Righteousness is good morality, and wrongdoing is that which wavers in your soul and which you dislike people finding out about. --Mohammed
the girl she feels what mohammed (peace be apon him) is in her hart. katanga is discovered. this truth he not be to like.
Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricochet: the girl isnt stuborn her see katanga is a fool/ hypocrite.
the girl she feels what mohammed (peace be apon him) is in her hart. katanga is discovered. this truth he not be to like.
I read those lines, say 83 times, and I still don't have a clue on what you're talking about!
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: If shes 'stubborn' as you call it, then shes not ready!! You trying to force her will not make it happen.
I assume you are 'dating' a girl and YOU are muslim? then thats first thing you are failing in, not supposed to 'date' are you
I was lucky as I had no muslims to *cough* 'guide' me and did the research for myself. Your friend is not so lucky as she now has muslims (or at least one, you) trying to convert her by 'telling' her YOUR Islam while not showing Islam in your actions.
Ask her to read Quran, if she then has questions be very careful how you answer them and do not go to hadith to answer. Quran speaks very clearly for itself and as a new prospective Muslim hadith are confusing and are a MANS point of view, and in my opinion spoil many things in Muslims and go against the logic, love and overall message in Quran. Quran is enough for anyone new.
try to dispell the 'normal' view of God. I mean the one about the big guy with a beard sitting on a throne up there! Get her to think about the universe, how massively incomprehensibly BIG it is, then explain that He created ALL of that and everything in it, this will help her to start thinking just what IS God and how BIG we are talking here, although we humans will never comprehend it fully.
harun yahya site has a brilliant video free to download about Creation of the Universe, I found that great. There are many others on that site too and some great kids books. I say kids books because they are simple and she is like a child learning Islam, learn first the concept of GOD. When she finally is awed by God the rest will fall into place.
A good lecture/talk is by Khaled Yaseen called 'What is the purpose of life and what do you really know about Islam' you can find this on a few sites or I have it on disc and would be happy to send it you.
Above all, do NOT rush her, she has to take her own time. Pray for her to be guided.
Thank you. Appreciate it. Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by newcomer:
quote:Originally posted by katangah: I was hoping to get some advice here. I was looking for those who made the transition to give some insight on how it all came about. How were their thought process at the time? Did they have any preconceived prejudice in advance about the culture and how that changed?
If you really want to know about the thought processes to the transition to Islam, I can give you some idea about mine, but I am not sure how helpful it would be, as everybody who comes to Islam follows an individual path that is made up of so many different aspects, not only of their beliefs, but of their life experiences and circumstances. It's Allah who guides, people just act as helping hands along the way...or in some cases the opposite.
On my journey to Islam, I personally would avoid anyone who I thought would remotely try to persuade me to become a Muslim, and definitely those who looked "religious", but that was because I wasn't looking for a religion for myself, just for answers to questions that arose while I was living in a Muslim country. I was happy with my way of life and satisfied with my beliefs, and I certainly didn't want to change the way I lived.
The only people I would talk to about Islam were the non-practicing Muslims, i.e. the ones in the bars who weren't praying or adhering to anything other than avoiding pork and maybe fasting in Ramadan. They just answered my questions in a theoretical way, with a half-hearted rider about the possibility of me becoming a Muslim, but definitely no pressure. If there had been any pressure, I would have turned round and walked away and never looked back.
This part of my journey I think is perhaps one to take note of, as many westerners do not like to be pressured into anything, especially if they have not decided to go down a particular path themselves. We need to assimilate ideas and if we gradually get there by ourselves that's ok...it's then our choice.
If you let her lead the way in asking questions and don't try to persuade her, you might have more luck and won't find her so "stubborn". Take a lesson from the Seerah...did the Prophet (peace be upon him) try to make his uncle say his shahadah? No, he gave him the information and gave him space to make his own choice. This is where the verse comes in, that "There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in tāghūt and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."
I feel that if she asks about Islam that you let her know the truth about Islam, as you understand it, then that is as much as you can do for her, the rest has to come from her.
Thank you, appreciate it. As I explained earlier, all I wanted is for the children to be Muslim. She accepts me as I'm with my religious side. She is not religious herself. She is just biased against the culture I guess. Anyway, appreciate your input.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricochet: the girl isnt stuborn her see katanga is a fool/ hypocrite.
Righteousness is good morality, and wrongdoing is that which wavers in your soul and which you dislike people finding out about. --Mohammed
the girl she feels what mohammed (peace be apon him) is in her hart. katanga is discovered. this truth he not be to like.
Could the freak be anymore cryptic If you're calling me a fool ... Well, maybe I’m ... would love it if you would call me that in my face though.
This board seems to be all about some weird cat fights ...
Over and out. Thx everyone. Posted by Albino_Eskimo (Member # 11479) on :
quote:Originally posted by FairyDust: There is a big difference between removal of a clitoral hood, (which doesn't effect the size of it, it only uncovers the more sensitive nerve) and actually removing the clitoris which would take away a good portion of the most awesome sexual feelings.
Most gynocologists and even more often "barbers" (barbers do most circumscions) while removing the clit hood actually do alot of damage to the clit.
Just removing the hood can do as much damage as taking out the entire clit.
No one will admit to this, but I have been told this by classmates where all his sisters has this procedure done. Nearly in tears trying to talk his wife out of doing this to their daughters. But tradition/Culture is more important than staying together, let alone the health of their daughters. Posted by cinematic (Member # 11514) on :
quote:Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo:
quote:Originally posted by FairyDust: There is a big difference between removal of a clitoral hood, (which doesn't effect the size of it, it only uncovers the more sensitive nerve) and actually removing the clitoris which would take away a good portion of the most awesome sexual feelings.
Most gynocologists and even more often "barbers" (barbers do most circumscions) while removing the clit hood actually do alot of damage to the clit.
Just removing the hood can do as much damage as taking out the entire clit.
No one will admit to this, but I have been told this by classmates where all his sisters has this procedure done. Nearly in tears trying to talk his wife out of doing this to their daughters. But tradition/Culture is more important than staying together, let alone the health of their daughters.
It's always the women who had been circumsized are the ones that insist as mothers to do it to their girls too. Not the fathers, it's only the mothers coz they can't imagine their daughters to be different... that's crazy
Posted by Albino_Eskimo (Member # 11479) on :
quote:Originally posted by cinematic:
quote:Originally posted by Albino_Eskimo:
quote:Originally posted by FairyDust: There is a big difference between removal of a clitoral hood, (which doesn't effect the size of it, it only uncovers the more sensitive nerve) and actually removing the clitoris which would take away a good portion of the most awesome sexual feelings.
Most gynocologists and even more often "barbers" (barbers do most circumscions) while removing the clit hood actually do alot of damage to the clit.
Just removing the hood can do as much damage as taking out the entire clit.
No one will admit to this, but I have been told this by classmates where all his sisters has this procedure done. Nearly in tears trying to talk his wife out of doing this to their daughters. But tradition/Culture is more important than staying together, let alone the health of their daughters.
It's always the women who had been circumsized are the ones that insist as mothers to do it to their girls too. Not the fathers, it's only the mothers coz they can't imagine their daughters to be different... that's crazy
I know I have male classmates who are more than willing to discuss it. Trying to gather material to talk their wives out of it.
Somehow I being a woman who hasn't had it done and I am firmly against it says to these fathers/husbands that I might have a few discussion pointers they can use on their wives.
But I don't have any convincing arguments to change their wive's minds.
And yeah, its almost always the mother's insistance to have this done to their daughters. Its like "I can't enjoy life and neither should you."
Luckily my SILs both haven't had this done and are firmly against it. Then my MIL and FIL only had sons so its out of the reach of my MIL.
Besides my daughter will probably marry a westerner along with some of my nieces making the FGM issue moot for them.
Posted by Ricochet (Member # 11551) on :
my english is bad katangah is big big fool. easy be brave from behind computer!!!!! he meet me to fight? bring it on
maybe he likes bulying girl more?????
Posted by Ramses nemesis (Member # 4125) on :
Sorry if this comes a tad too late, I just read some of this thread. I have to say that I was offended by the way some people talk disrespectfully about hadith and sunnah. And trying to divorce hadith from Quran. I like to think of the issue in an objective logical manner.
How did Quran reach us in the first place? wasn't it through the prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). If you say you believe that Quran is the word of god as revealed and has not been adulterated, i.e. you believe in its authenticity, then it follows that you believe in the integrity of that who conveyed it. Hence it follows that you'll believe that all his sayings and actions are righteous.
Again if you believe in everything in the Quran (which you must as a moslem), then you'll have to acknowledge what it says with respect to the prophet (pbuh). For example it says something to the effect that "what he brings you, take - and what he prohibits you from,leave" and "he does not speak of his whim but is inspired" and that "he is of great traits/morals/character/values". Again it follows that if that is what god attests to for the prophet in the Quran - that we believe is true - then he is not a man to give personal interpretations or spin.
Besides, if he wanted to put his personal views, he would've put in the Quran in the first place, after all, nobody would've known. If he wanted he could've claimed it's the word of god. I mean in pure common sense terms, why deliver something in the Quran then contradict it in the hadith, why just not put in the source, at least it will be unquestionable.
To me, it follows deductively that if you believe in the authenticiy of the Quran (how it was delivered) and in the truth of its content (what it contains) you will have to accept sunnah in general and not just hadith. To me they are inseparable, like to sides of a coin.
The issue becomes then whether what's attributed to the prophet is what he really said? There is a huge body of knowledge that addresses the authentication of hadith. I was EXTREMELY impressed when I came across it, that such a rigorous methodology was devised more than a thousand years ago!! In my view, there's very little (if any) that anybody nowadays can add to or remove from the authenticiy of the hadith.
Next then comes the issue of extracting guidance and legislations from the hadith. This in my view is the area where there's room for interpretaion and debate. This I believe falls in the realm of fiqh, which is a huge body of knowledge of its own that accomodates different interpretations and opinions. But it also puts conditions on how and who can make such derivations.
Disclaimer: this is my own opinion, do not take it as fact but rather seek more info. I have to put this disclaimer whenever I talk about religion.
Sorry for such a long post, but this is an important issue.
Peace
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: Sorry if this comes a tad too late, I just read some of this thread. I have to say that I was offended by the way some people talk disrespectfully about hadith and sunnah. And trying to divorce hadith from Quran. I like to think of the issue in an objective logical manner.
How did Quran reach us in the first place? wasn't it through the prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). If you say you believe that Quran is the word of god as revealed and has not been adulterated, i.e. you believe in its authenticity, then it follows that you believe in the integrity of that who conveyed it. Hence it follows that you'll believe that all his sayings and actions are righteous.
Again if you believe in everything in the Quran (which you must as a moslem), then you'll have to acknowledge what it says with respect to the prophet (pbuh). For example it says something to the effect that "what he brings you, take - and what he prohibits you from,leave" and "he does not speak of his whim but is inspired" and that "he is of great traits/morals/character/values". Again it follows that if that is what god attests to for the prophet in the Quran - that we believe is true - then he is not a man to give personal interpretations or spin.
Besides, if he wanted to put his personal views, he would've put in the Quran in the first place, after all, nobody would've known. If he wanted he could've claimed it's the word of god. I mean in pure common sense terms, why deliver something in the Quran then contradict it in the hadith, why just not put in the source, at least it will be unquestionable.
To me, it follows deductively that if you believe in the authenticiy of the Quran (how it was delivered) and in the truth of its content (what it contains) you will have to accept sunnah in general and not just hadith. To me they are inseparable, like to sides of a coin.
The issue becomes then whether what's attributed to the prophet is what he really said? There is a huge body of knowledge that addresses the authentication of hadith. I was EXTREMELY impressed when I came across it, that such a rigorous methodology was devised more than a thousand years ago!! In my view, there's very little (if any) that anybody nowadays can add to or remove from the authenticiy of the hadith.
Next then comes the issue of extracting guidance and legislations from the hadith. This in my view is the area where there's room for interpretaion and debate. This I believe falls in the realm of fiqh, which is a huge body of knowledge of its own that accomodates different interpretations and opinions. But it also puts conditions on how and who can make such derivations.
Disclaimer: this is my own opinion, do not take it as fact but rather seek more info. I have to put this disclaimer whenever I talk about religion.
Sorry for such a long post, but this is an important issue.
Peace
So, ur basically disagreeing with my "liberal" view or this is about FGM?
Posted by Ramses nemesis (Member # 4125) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis:
Peace
So, ur basically disagreeing with my "liberal" view or this is about FGM?
I'm only discussing the relationship between Quran and sunnah, in general terms. I don't usually comment on personal issues. I'm not also aware of the views you're refering to. My stance is always that everybody is entitled to their own views. The only bit that I was critical of, is when people use disrespectful language. My apologies if you found anything in my post offensive (though I can't think of any).
And no, I was nost certainly not talking about FGM
Peace
Posted by cinematic (Member # 11514) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lazeez:
quote:Originally posted by katangah: This is just sick and stupid!!!
Looks like specific inviduals can't get enough of running after each other in Religion forum.
Sick indeed
The ES saaaaa7 3ala ba3do w fata7 3al ba7ary pls enough of the FGM topic..... its not interesting anymore because it's a never ending debate & nobody gets to agree
Posted by cinematic (Member # 11514) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
This board seems to be all about some weird cat fights ...
Over and out. Thx everyone. [/QB]
But admit it Kantagah... arent the cat fights entertaining?? Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by cinematic:
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
This board seems to be all about some weird cat fights ...
Over and out. Thx everyone.
But admit it Kantagah... arent the cat fights entertaining?? [/QB]
Always fun to watch, from a distance though. Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis:
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis:
Peace
So, ur basically disagreeing with my "liberal" view or this is about FGM?
I'm only discussing the relationship between Quran and sunnah, in general terms. I don't usually comment on personal issues. I'm not also aware of the views you're refering to. My stance is always that everybody is entitled to their own views. The only bit that I was critical of, is when people use disrespectful language. My apologies if you found anything in my post offensive (though I can't think of any).
And no, I was nost certainly not talking about FGM
Peace
ure No worries, It's just that I wasn't sure of what you're referring to.
Posted by Ramses nemesis (Member # 4125) on :
Well, while we're at it, I might as well add something about the authentication of hadith.
I have to say outright though, that I'm not an Islamic scholar neither professional nor amateur. The info below was in a book I read a few years ago, it wasn't even one of the famous books.
It basically said that when authenticating a hadith, you look at two things: the narration (who and how) known as the "sanad", and the wording known as the "matn"
Now when you consider the narration you first look at the number of narrators, say A,B,C narrated that U,V,W narrated that X,Y.Z said that the prophet (pbuh) sais so and so. Now you start grading them based on the number of narrators, obviously the more people narrate the hadith the stronger it is. Next you look at the narrators themselves, for example that there's overlap between them in time and space (e.g. W can not say that X told him,when X was dead before W was born!). You also look at their biographies of sort), who is known to be a righteous person, who's a liar, who's not a liar but persists on "minor disobediences" (al-sagha'er), etc. I understand this is known as "elmul-rejal" which can be loosely translated into the study of narrators.
The bit that I personally found most interesting is about how the relay of information itself took place. For example W can say, X told me (haddathany), or I heard X say (sam'itu), or X said (kal), or I was informed that X (balaghani), or I found out that X (alemtu), and many other variations. As you know the Arabic language is a very rich language with a lot of subtle differences in meaning that can render subtle differences in the strength of the hadith! All that and we haven't even touched on the "matn" yet!! which I'm sure also has it's rules.
So when you take all the perumtations and combinations of the above criteria you end up with a complex system of grading. Those are put in three broad categories by which a hadith can be: hassan, da'eef, or maw'doo.
The hassan would be the most authentic but as mentioned above would have several sub-categories within it.
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Why force something, that's the worst thing you could do ! ?
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