posted
Hello, I am new here. I would like to tell you my story. I would appreciate any comment, even though the more I think, the more I believe I know the answer. So I returned from Egypt a week ago. Nil Cruise Assuan-Luxor, train from Luxor to Cairo, bus from Cairo to Alexandria. And the same guide all the time. At first I was not interested in him at all, but he was after me all the time and on day 4. he moved something inside of me. He is 43 years old, has prestigieus education - 2 faculties, speaks fluent German, English, is married and comes from a wealthy family. He took me out to dinner, we went smoking sisha, he jumped to my coach, wanted me to be beside him all the time; we were mostly all the time surrounded by other members of the group, but he wouldn't miss a chance to be with me. I tried to stay away,didn't want the group to notice anything. He said he liked me very much, that I moved something inside him. I didn't believe him, he took me to a tomb where we were alone and kissed me there and I started feelling dizy. He said he wanted to be with me, and that he is aware that is not easy due to the circumstances. And he wanted to get my number. I gave him my number the day I left. He even told my sister at the airport to tell me that he loves me, and she should tell me that at very moment the plane takes off. I told my sister he was not beeing honest. My sister believes he meant what he said. A member of our group asked him in front of entire group "Is she the one" (it was OK due to circumstances" and he embraced me and said "Yes, she is the one". He wanted to take pictures with me, and as I said this should stop, he pulled a photo out of his pocket and said I may tear it apart. I found it childish, but nice. And now- it's been a week since I have returned and he hasn't called me. I don't understand why he was after me; there were some women in our group, who would be more than happy to have his attention. So any ideas why he behaved like that why doesn't he call me and why is to be expected in the future. He wanted me to come to visit him in May, June or July. I gave no definite answer, said I was very busy. By the way I am the same age as he is, and have similar education (MA). Thanks,
mpj20
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
mpj20, your story sounds nice, seems like you have experienced a lot of things and met an interesting guy. I wish the best and hope he will call you back. Sometimes men are childish and you have to let go just make sure you're able to keep him but don't worry everything is gonna be allright if you wait him to call back. He must be very smart to have a relationship with someone that sounds as smart as you do, just be yourself and don't look for the other girls if they don't catch his attention it's because you must someone really special and he is too so believe there's something's special goin' on between you two, and you guys are intellectuals so you might have a happy relationship because you are smart and sound sensitive. Keep it that way for a while.
quote:Originally posted by Charm El Feikh?: welcome to ES. i will leave the rest to someone else... sit tight... dont think youll have to wait to long.
are you sitting down?
Hey piggy pig don't i sound like some low psychologist or something?
Posts: 1473 | From: France | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
ha, ha, you two make me laugh. Run- I agree - escape I fast as I can. Learner, he is an interesting guy, but revealed his feelings much too soon. I am sure he was just playing around, what I would quite understand if he was 20, but with 2 MA degrees, and at age 44???. (43 he said - 44 to be in June). The fact is, that I am angry with myself, that I even let that much happen. It was not necessary at all. Beeing intelectual, dear Learner, doesn't necessarily mean a lot in an emotianal relationship - emotional inteligence is important and I believe it has not much to do with formal education. What do you think?
Love mpj20
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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i meant run from ES before every aspect of this wonderfully romantic encounter is ripped apart, chewed up and spat out!!!!
"it was not necessary" honey.... life is about what you do with your time between the necessary mundane stuff, like paying the bills and washing the dishes.... of course it wasnt necessary, it was amazing!!!!
i wonder what you will remember on your death bed... the years and years of study... or your brief encounter with another human being that touched your soul?
Posts: 5642 | From: hellonearth.myfastforum.org Forum Index | Registered: Feb 2006
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I am Austrian, what is ES? I agree with you that live is more that just everyday duties and obligations. But it don't think I will have to run, he's just done that instead of me, agree. You are a very nice person. Don't beat around the bush. I like that.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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Oh, I see what you mean. Stay? I don't know, I don't think much of longe-distance romances. With him beeing married. And not getting in touch with me for almost 8 days? Yes he touched my soul. Yes it was nice. But with all these stories I read, and my common sense is also telling me - leave it there in a Pharaoh tomb. You know, I've allways considered myself as a very reasonable person and this came to my surprise. Before I was aware of it, bang. I know it can happen, but I was pretty much sure, it can't happen to me anymore. I felt that way only once in my life and I prefer to operate with reason, if you know what I mean. It was probably time for me, to be a little shaken and to wake up from my emotional sleep.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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I will stan on ES.I will probably not stay in the Egypt. relationship. But talking to you makes it a lot easier for me.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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I don't want to rip into your story, but I do want to point out a cultural difference. The quality of education in Egypt differs from school to school and it's not very difficult to get a university degree. So what school he went to and what he studied makes a big difference. Second, tourism isn't really a "prestigeous" business. It's a great career for many (after all, it is Egypt's #1 money-maker) but that doesn't mean that it's got the same pull as a "doctor" or "engineer" (by the way, it seems there's a doctor and an engineer in every Egyptian family).
And last, I've never met (or heard) of anyone from a wealthy family working as a tour guide/egyptologist. EVER.
Owned the business? Yes. A doctorate, archeologist, etc. ? Yes. But a tour guide/egyptologist? No. Past 40??? Definitely not.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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i think if you can leave it in the pharaoh tomb, with a smile on your face and gladness in your heart, then do so. if your life is blessed with these chance meetings and connections, and each time it fills you with joy then you will lead a beautiful life indeed.
when one day, to walk away would cause such deep sorrow in your heart, thats the time to stay.
is it not better to have a joyous life until that day? all to often we destroy these chance relationships by trying to prolong them... turning them into something they are not, and were never meant to be.
the natural desire to hold on to something precious. i believe we can hold on to the preciousness of it in our memories, and if we can allow ourselves the chance to do this, we will be happier in ourselves and in our future, and final relationships with the people we love... husbands, wives, children and grandchildren.
hold dear your memory, let it warm you in cold times, and if it was meant to be, your paths will cross again, if not by chance but by will!!!
Posts: 5642 | From: hellonearth.myfastforum.org Forum Index | Registered: Feb 2006
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I completely agree with you. There's just nothing more to say to it. But you put it so nicely, just what I needed right now. Thank you.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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Another way to think of it is it's another nice memory for your 'rocking chair'.
My sister and I are looking forward to the time when we are old and grey and sitting together in our rocking chairs with big smiles on our faces as we look back on all the special memories. I just hope we can keep all our marbles to be able to remember them. Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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Penny, start writing a diary. I used to, and I read it sometimes. However I am trying to live here and now. For tomorrow might never come. But yes, if we live to be old and grey, it would be nice to have something to remember. I travel a lot, work mostly with men, and I am aware of certain facts, and that is why I am a little surprised that it "cuaght me" like that. Before I could even engage my reason. Well but it's still there, my reason I mean. And it struggles with my emotions. It sometises amuses me, sometimes drive me mad.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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Hi Mp. Just wanted to say the same as Expat said. Having a master's degree and working in tourism isn't compatible at all. Very few people have a master's degree by the way, most of them hold a bachelor. You're not working in tourism if you come from a wealthy family. Working in that field is not very well considered. As for speaking several languages, they all do, even the illiterate. Something really amazing. Most of these tourist guys are really not clever at all, but are able to learn and speak languages very easily.
As for the "I love you" part. A respectful Egyptian man will *never* kiss a woman. Men and women don't mix up in Egypt, that's it. Kissing you while he wasn't sure of your feelings, and after such a short vacation, means he's quite arrogant, very self-confident,and that he doesn't put you in high consideration. I'm talking from the Egyptian point of view. I know that from your side, the story appears totally different. But all what you wrote, each single point, makes no sense according to the Egyptian culture and society. He wants you, but is it really *you*, or rather the foreign woman you represent? Take this story as it is, a nice vacation memory. I wouldn't trust any Egyptian man behaving like this one did.
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Thank you Barbapapa, thank you Exptin. I must say, that I was very suspicious abot his education from the very start. I also found it unclear, why would he not lecture at the university, since he maintained he has 8 semesters of Business Economy and 12 sem. of History of Art. I was persistant and wanted to know, how comes he works in a tourism branch, and his answer to me was, that he likes working as a guide and that he can't imagine himself as a university professor. He didn't persuade me however; he explained everything about his education to the entire group on the bus, I was still sceptic. I was convinced that he passes or obtained a licence for a tourist guide. He said on the bus that he attended a private German Primary School. He than studies 6 sem of Economy and realised this was not really what he wanted, but since 6 sem were behind him, he made another 2 and completed the study. The he enrolled for study of History of Art and also successfully completed 12 sem and holds a degree from both faculties. He didn't convince me, so I spoke to the Austrian boss, who organised the entire cruise; he knows him very well, they have worked together for quite some time. So I asked him the same question: I don't get it, why would a man with such a prestig. education work as a tourist guide. He said, that he didn't lie abot his education, and that the main reason is, MONEY. However, still I am not certain. Could you "Exptin", since you are from Cairo (he is from Cairo as well), write me a private message, so that I could give you his name (I don't know if I am allowed to do that on the forum, and I somwhow don't find it right), perhaps you could tell me something more about the education system and who knows, perhaps you've even heard of him - I know Cairo is huge, but the world is sometimes very small place. Correct, he is very self-confident, maybe on the border of arrogance. I don't think he is interested in visa or leaving Egypt. I have already searchen on the web, I wanted to find a page of licenced tourist guides in Cairo or Egypt, but could find it. I just want to know as much of his as possible, in case he gets in touch with me. If what he said was true, that at least he gained some of mine respect. If not, I will also know what to do. Just feelings are not enough. And I prefer facts and information to guesses. It's a part of my profession to think like that. Gather information, examine it, and than decide. Even though it may not sound very romantic.., As for Egyptian man, or American or European man, you have all kinds of them all over the world - and women as well. One should not jump to conlusions. However, I agree that the possiblity of finding an honest Egyptian in a hotel and tourism branch is almost impossible. But in my profession I was trained to check and examine and than to decide, based on the facts and evidence. And un-fortunately I function so in every -day life as well - if the matter is of importance to me.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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I don't understand why you expect him to call you, etc. when from your description this was a vacation fling.
But it doesn't matter whether I understand or not.
He's married.
To me, that should be full stop, so I'm sorry...I don't want to know his name nor do any investigations on your behalf.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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No, no, I didn't mean that you should do any investigation on my behalf. Sorry if you understood it like that. And by no means I meant that you should call this man or ask questions about him around. I read what I wrote and you could have understood it that way, but it was not meant like that. I just wanted to ask you, if you could explain the school system-university system - if you know it and what are the titles after 8 or 12 semesters of study. What I wanted to say was in general, the truth allways come to light, sooner or later. So sorry for misunderstanding. That's what I meant with a private message, and by giving his name, I simply wanted to name him, I said that Cairo is a large city. So I would still be very greatfull if you could tell me, if you know, if the History of Art takes 12 semest. and what title one receives after completing the studies.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I agree with mpj20 that it would be very useful to get some information about the school system in Egypt.
When do they start elementary school? At what age do they finish high school? Age 19? what is the system of universities? Is there academy and university? is it possible to get a 2-years diploma from University? etc....
This is also important for me so if somebody could enlighten us then we would appreciate it!
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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What our guide told us about school system is following: They have private and state primary schools. The state schools are free, but the private school are very expensive and are meant more or less for "upper" society, so for those who can afford them. He i.e. attended the private, very well known German School. His 2 children also go to German school, where the learn Arabic, English and German. Most of the classis are held in German but some of them also in Arabic language. Than the secondary school follows, (he didn't say much about secondary scool system), he said that if you want to go to a University, you have to have certain number of credit points for certain universities. That much I know. And that he had 8 and 12 sememsters. He didn't tell us about what you are (title) after finishing 8 or 12 semesters , he only said that if he wanted to be PhD, he would have to attend additional 2 years, (beside the 12 he had), but that he could lecture at the University with 12 semesters. That's all I know. I would also like to get more detailed info, not only with regards to the Guide, but also in general. So if anyone could provide some information I'd be very happy.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Eh da? He's married? I didn't get he was. So this married guy jumped on you? When I was telling you his behavior was totally forbidden by all the Egyptians, I thought he was a single! A married man doing that... Wow. Forget about him, really, don't try to get more about him. This man isn't observing his religion, whether he's Coptic or Muslim, that's all what you need to know Mp! When you get more into the Egyptian society, you will understand how wrong his behavior is.
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The moment the man said he was married that should have been your signal to TAKE OFF!!! These slimy two timing bastards need to be slapped instead of having women fall in love with them. Sorry for being harsh.
Posts: 2735 | From: my desk | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Instead of trying to find out about HIM you should be trying to find his wife's mobile number and call HER and blow the whistle on this lowlife.
You would be doing her a favor!
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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But sisterhood against what? I pity a girl who has been cheated for years by a man she blindly trust, but there are girls here who are aware of dating married men. We can do nothing for them. They think that because he told them he's married, that means he isn't lying to them, and that he's cheating on his wife because he's sooo unhappy with her but he's forced by his family...How many stories like that haven't we heard here? A man can easily divorce a woman, he has money, he can live alone (while a woman can't), so there is nothing or no one forcing them to stay with someone they don't like anymore. Thus, it's a personal choice to stay with a married man, from an other culture and an other religion, living thousands kilometers far from them.
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Ha, ha if for nothing else, it was good meeting him for this discussion here. You really are great. No I will not call his wife, and Madame M. I don't find you harsh at all. I know a little somthing of Egyptian (moslem) religion, I know even some of Egyptian laws, I know it is punishable to have without marriage (up to six months of imprisonment, up to three years for infidelity - adultery), and yes I know Egyptians are not allowed to kiss women if they are not married, even if they are they are not allowed to do in public. Well, he didn't really jumped on me, he even asked me my persmission for kissing me, and to be honest I didn't really object. But there are also married men from other nations and religions having other women, they are just not allowed to marry them. I of course strongly object to such marriages as well as ofti marriages, but this for me only indicates, that even Moslems (men and women) try to find their ways, to be together without "proper" marriage, as it is completely normal for our part of the world. But I think this is not the subject here, so no more phylosophy from my side. As I was with him (didn't have sex), he didn't even try to get that far, (he kissed me and sometimes secretly touched my hand), I was not thinking of the Egyptian laws and his religion, and ofhis pre-arranged marriage, but I simply enjoyed the moments with the men I liked. An kissing a man I really liked,( at my age) doesn't seem such a big deal to me. As I said I know he is married, he told me that. However I am not sure about his education. It is not important to me for the sake of education or title, but if he lied about it, this would reveal a great deal about his personality to me.
AS FOR THE SISTERHOOD- I FIND IT A GOOD IDEA: NO HE IS NOT GAMAL EL DIN SALEM /Spring Tours - unless his name was fake too - joke - I know his boss - Austrian - his name is real. I haven't met any Gamal on my trip.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Sisterhood of women supporting each other and steering clear of other women's husbands...the women in these 'arranged' marriages should also to be taken into consideration. I wouldn't feel sorry for a man running after other women while complaining about his wife, I'd ask what he'd done to make his wife unhappy! That's sisterhood.
Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by citizen: Sisterhood of women supporting each other and steering clear of other women's husbands...the women in these 'arranged' marriages should also to be taken into consideration. I wouldn't feel sorry for a man running after other women while complaining about his wife, I'd ask what he'd done to make his wife unhappy! That's sisterhood.
Thank-you. ONe of the first posts of common sense in regards to this matter.
Posts: 1765 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Ok, I thought you were feeling sorry for these women dating married men. Yeah, helping these poor Egyptian women. I think they guess what their men are doing at night though. They see them maybe once a week. He comes back home with money at least. But I also know some of these women help their husband when he comes back with a foreign girlfriend, by saying they are "his sister". I don't really know what to think.
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Yes, I feel sorry for women dating married man, I am also sorry for women with no rights, or not equal rights as men have; but I am also sorry for those women, who don't know at all, they are dating a married man, as it is the case so often in Egypt and Tunisia etc. That's why I find it important to find out who he or she is - at least some basic informatin. I believe if any relationship -even if it not an emotional one, starts with a lie, - it's a comlete waste of time. Just beeing in love is not enough. I prefer to know that a man is married - it's the fact and it's entirely up to me to decide, whether or not I want such a relationship and whether or not I am willing to live with the consequences of my decision, whetever they might be. But it's not all right for me it someone is telling me he is someone or that he achieved something he actually never was or achieved, - just to impress me. I could never put up with that, since all respect for such a person would vanish.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Barbapapa - what do you think an Egyptian woman would do if she was told that her husband was cheating on her? I think, if her husband is dooing that all the time, she knows that. On the other hand, I know quiete some women here, well educated, financially independet, who know about their husband's affairs and prefer to pretend everything is fine- for different reasons, :childran, family and friends, they are afraid of living on their own, etc.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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So I am leaving now for quite some time. (Business trip, starting tomorrow). It was nice talking to you all. Thank's for your opinion. Wish you all the best! Good bless you all!
Love mpj 20
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Mpj20, I was wondering the same, what an Egyptian woman would do, and I have no answer. It depends on the class, I have friends who are divorced, live on their own, try to be happy, but their situation is really difficult. Women from lower classes would rarely divorce -that means coming back to her parents', being laughed at, and no man will accept to marry them. So, as I said in my last post, yes, some women prefer not to know, even if they guess what their husband is doing. Some of them even help the guy getting a new girl, which means more money for home. That's all what I know. Being a woman in Egypt is always very complicated.
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Yes, I completely agree with you Barbapapa. And it is also very complicated for the women from other parts of the worls, who spend their money, loose their families and homes and at the end their Egyptian lover. One has to be carefull with such thinks, that's what I meant when I said I prefer to know he is married. Not that I would meant, that only because he told that, that makes him an honest person. Far from that. But you at least know, where approx. you are. It's easier to decide.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Yes when it comes down to it - a woman in Egypt can only have her life validated through a man - and you say that they don't need feminism or some kind of liberation????
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Me? When? I always said that being a woman is really difficult, that myself, I really need to come back to my country every three months otherwise I die! I love this country, but I do miss my freedom!
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Ok, so where did I say such a thing? Nowhere! I do spend my time telling everyone that Egypt isn't made for everyone, because of the culture, religion, class stucture. It's really hard to live there, as a woman. Me I get used to, and I do love this country and its people, but even until now, I do need to come back to my country to breathe. But I haven't been there for a while now, and I miss it so much, I tend to forget all the things I used to hate there! Right now, I hate to live in my home country!
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Hallo Barbapapa, I'm back from from my business trip. You seem to be in general unsatisfied with your life - don't like beeing in your homeland, not feling well in Egypt. How comes? To my opinion, no country is made for everyone, sometimes as you say we don't even feel good in our own skin. And that's the main problem. But one has almost always more than one option. Difficult? I agree with Anthropos. I also believe that we prior we decide, we consider all the possibilites, and yet the life may be so unpredictable. One must be also able to decide quickly. I had a client, female, Muslim, who divorced after 20 years of marriage to an abusive, to my belief sadistic husband. After we discussed it, she said she was raised so to obey her husband and that she believed that beeing beaten by a husband daily was completely normal. Her mother was also beaten daily and she never complained. When I asked her about how she could put up with it (of course in more professional and sufisticated way), she said she didn't really mind. It was normal for her. It was her 3 children who opened her eyes for her. And she was not uneducated. She is divorced and we still have contacts. She said she can't beleive it, that she went through all thet horror, believing it was her duty and destiny. She is a teacher.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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I still can't understand why you're so worried about what he said about his schooling since you know that he's married! I would never ever EVER consider a relationship with a married man. Aside from the fact that it would probably hurt his wife if she knew (put yourself in her shoes), adultery is something he shouldn't be practicing, assuming he's Muslim. And Muslim or not, cheating on a spouse is just wrong. I don't care what the reasons are. If you're unhappy in a marriage, then get divorced before seeing someone else. And if he is Muslim and wanted a second wife, then I'm guessing he would have said so, and it doesn't sound like he did.
Posts: 1283 | From: Cairo | Registered: Feb 2006
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Loved One, I'm not concerned about HIS education, am I interested in the education system in Egypt in general. Yes, cheating is wrong as many other things that we do. False morality, jumping to conclusions, gossiping, not to mention criminal offences, etc.
Posts: 41 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2006
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Hi Mp! No, my situation isn't that bad! I love my life in Egypt, because I have all my friends and inlaws there! That's what I'm missing here, that's all! Life in Egypt isn't that bad, I just miss my freedom when I walk in the street! For the rest, I feel great. But this is my experience, and I know Egypt isn't made for everyone.
I can't wait to be there. But my case isn't rare you know. All my expat friends feel the same, not totally adjusting to their homeland, but missing their country after a few months spent abroad. That's life. I think you feel good where your beloved ones are. In my case, it's in Egypt. My life is there.
Posts: 531 | Registered: Jan 2006
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