posted
men are full of ****, no its not unique to egyptian men but they are just as full of **** as the other wankers that exist out there, i wonder is it possible for there ever to be one unselfish male alive on this planet or are they all users? just using people to make themselves feel better constantly?
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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I think they can be inconsiderate not realising they are doing it! Us women take more time to think of how things affect other people!
Posts: 4476 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2006
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Caterpillar, what crossed your path today? Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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its all in the way their mama raised them. when i have a son, if i have one, i will teach him how to treat a lady and when he grows up and if his wife ever comes to me saying he hit her or anything i will knock him the f*ck out.
Posts: 229 | From: florida | Registered: Apr 2007
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Ah, I see how this is going. Here is my fair contribution (actually by Cynthia Heimel):
"All men are not slimy warthogs. Some men are silly giraffes, some woebegone puppies, some insecure frogs. But if one is not careful, those slimy warthogs can ruin it for all the others."
~ GOTTA LOVE MEN QUOTES!!!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by MissJambi: its all in the way their mama raised them. when i have a son, if i have one, i will teach him how to treat a lady and when he grows up and if his wife ever comes to me saying he hit her or anything i will knock him the f*ck out.
Agreed on that one. Perhaps it is good after all that I have a daughter.. Posts: 2238 | From: Mother Earth | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by young at heart: I think they can be inconsiderate not realising they are doing it! Us women take more time to think of how things affect other people!
posted
I really am Sorry everyone, my brain was indeed hacked soozi , i can have a foul mouth when i am really cross and upset, which i am. I shouldnt say these things about all men, not all men are this way.
But at least your replies put a smile on my face this morning something Miss jambi said made me think...i do agree to an extent that its up to the mum how the boys turn out...but what about the dad? I mean, the statement kind of assumes that the man is haing no affect on the boys that are raised, but in reality thats what happens, unless we are single parents.
I will ask you a question that i feel is relevant to my problems right now, and it will be one of value to alot of people...
Do you think that non biological parents can love and accept children that are not biologically theirs?
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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I think they can CAT, but it has to be a special non-biological parent. I mean the parent has to go into the marriage with the understanding that their role as step-parent is an important and sensitive one. It has to be taken seriously. I had a step mother who was (still is) GREAT, absolutely terrific and caring and compassionate and spent lots of time with me teaching me different things, sometimes I enjoy talking more to her than my own father. I have met women who married men that were step-fathers and they were EXCELLENT fathers and role models to the children, and I've met some that just had the mentality that 'oh it's not my kid, not my problem, leave me alone'.
If we're talking about an Egyptian man, cultural aspects may play a role. I think as women we cannot marry a man and expect him to love our children fully, it's really not his job, it's ours. That's how I would feel if I had children from a previous marriage, maybe not the most popular opinion. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I think you may be right, and i dont think i would expect him to love him fully, although i dont think i would have a problem loving a child that wasnt mine, i've often thought of adoption. But you would expect to treat him fairly and not pick on the slightest little things. Maybe its cultural but more likely personality, some people can be overly critical parents and expect everything to be said and done perfectly and nothing to be said about the step parent, for fear of reprisal, i dont think that is healthy. If someone (male or female) is overly critical and expects perfection from kids then it would be hard enough for their own kids, let alone someone elses, i mean thats hard enough in a relationship isnt it? if people want to look for problems and find fault then they will, no matter what anyone does, its a no win situation.
So if a step parent has this personality trait and will often look at things in anegative way (i.e they've done that on purpose), when you dont agree, then they think you are siding with the child because they are your child, not because its actually the truth! then no one ever wins?
its an impossible situation, whereas if the child was theirs they may not automatically think your lying and siding with the child, then again maybe they would...i dont know.
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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In first, I think men are thinking in another way like women do. A woman is by nature caring and protecting children, no matter if they`re hers or somebody elses. Second you have the personal aspects, about character, about the way he has been raised up. I think he has been raised up in a much harder way as you have been. In common men are more demanding, more strict, and more hard to children. And in common Arabic men are more selfish as their Western brothers because it is the way they have been raised, in a culture where the difference between men and women is more unequally. So, your husbands behaviour probably will be a mix of all these aspects...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: A woman is by nature caring and protecting children, no matter if they`re hers or somebody elses.
Tell that to all the women that have hurt/killed their own offspring.
It's called Munchausen Syndrome.
It's a not a gender problem, it's a human problem, no matter how many variables you introduce, human nature is still at best flawed.
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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Munchhausen Byproxy is a mental disorder, are we going to take all psychologic illnesses in consideration in a normal situation like this? Of course not.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Cat you have got to consider if a person is suddenly throw into the role of being a parent, and has not had all that personal training that the child gives you from when it's born and that you have learnt to grow with that child, it is a very big expectation on your part for that peron to become a parent in a short space of time.
I can remember before I had a child I did not have a great deal of understanding of them and yes, could be critical because I did not know how hard, it was to be a parent. Our children teach us in a way how to be a parent. It is very hard for someone to suddenly find themselves in that role without the day by day preparation & growth.
Add to that you have cultural issue between the way things may be done in Egypt and the way a child may do things in the Uk becasue 2 different societies are moulding them, then you have a very difficult situation on your hands to try and deal with.
I would also agree I think Egyptian men can be selfish, as can many men the world over, they just don't have the same genes that we do or the same patience levels
Think about some of the ways we see Asian families bringing up their children in the UK, its close to the way Egyptian families do. There is such a big difference and you have to admit alot of these children are much politer, obedient, & more respectful of their parents.
Age of the child of course will have a big impact on whether both the child and step parent can adjust but I do beleive given time, if the love and the will is there it can be done. Problem is you are always going to be the one in the middle and you have to ask yourself if that is a role you want to survive.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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VB, I made that statement, ???? didnt, and i dont think that, i was just angry at the time, so i am sorry. What ???? actually said made a lot of sense, and it made me think that what is the answer then if people have different ways of parenting and conducting themselves in a relationship then how can it ever be harmonious? There must be people out there that have come up against these things...If each of you think the other is wrong then what can you do? maybe its me, perhaps i am the one at fault.
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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Cat maybe you are trying so hard that when things don't work you feel doubly upset, how about taking more of a back seat and just letting people be themselves and you can perhaps find new ways then of doing things.
It's good to put problems back in the lap of the person that has them, be that the kids or your husband and let them come up with a way to solve it, even include his ex wife and give her a say, maybe then she won't be so hostile.
It sounds like you are all so stressed, have a bit more faith that if you all simply love each other so much then nothing in this world is going to pull you appart. Laugh at the problems, don't take things so much to heart, and as they say 'don't sweat the small suff'. Also don't ever forget even if you were with the father of your children there would still be diagreements about how to do things with the children, it does not just happen with step parents.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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you sound so deflated never lose yourself, who you are because a relationship is in a difficult place, never begin to assume full responsibility for marriage woes that's BS. You are a couple and that term by definition includes you BOTH.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Let me tell you something. Long ago, when I just entered Egyptian society, I saw how a little boy was punished by his father, after he behaved badly. I was really shocked. It wasn`t a hard father in general, I didn`t knew him as a rude man. I asked about it later, to a friend. Then I`ve been explained that raising up in common, is much harder then in Europe. And indeed the children are much more respectfull, obedient and polight. (Besides that, at the same time, Egyptian people were having questions about the Western ways to raise a child.) As time passed by, by being a member of an Egyptian family, I`ve learned a lot about the (good) ways to raise up children. And to be completely honest, I like the Egyptian way more. It takes a lot of time and you have to feel the need to understand it, but for me, it has been worth it. And I think it has made me more complete, I can pick out the good and the bad from both ways to raise up children. I love my European children and I love "my" Egyptian children, and it is a two way street. The Egyptian children fully respect me, asking me advice, as the European ones also do. It has enrichened my life, and if you try to understand, you have to ask many questions. It will take time, but it will make you grow as a person. I always have been the kind of person what wanted to find answers ( that`s why I chose the nick) and it was funny that a Egyptian friend asked me "Don`t you have to ask why???" after explaining something to me. People who do respect you, shall feel the need to explain, you only have to ask...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Cat is't good to vent on ES and we can discuss some of the culural issues but you sound like you need to talk to someone, perhaps this is more about you than the family situation. Do you think it might be a good idea to go and talk to a professional counsellor to work out whats going on and where you are in your life.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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Never disavow yourself, Cat. Everybody around you has to respect you as you are, and you have to do the same to them. Only then you will be able to find a way.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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[In general you cannot expect people to respect or appreciate you on their own. You have to have it for yourself - emulate the treatment you want.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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oh well, everyone has things to deal with right, whether its about themselves or other people or just life in general, thats what life is about, its not the end of the world.
no more blanket statements about men ok, i promise
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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yes you are right and thank you. An interesting point came out though about the diference in the ways egyptians raise kids and the way we do in the west.
This could definately be a big issue. I see children as children, perhaps their concept of a child is more how ours used to be, that of miniture adult? What i see as being too harsh or disrespectful/authoritarian, might be for a lot of egyptian people just normal, child rearing. I agree with what was said about many egyptian/pakistani children being more well behaved? Are we hypersensitive in the west that every little comment will emotionally scar the child for life? have we gone too far the other way?
I know that when my son was small i was convinced that if i went to work before he was three that he would be emotionally scarred (thanks to Bowlby!!!) even though i didnt know half as much as i know now about child development, does the more you learn make it harder?
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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"Then again maybe i have been running away from myself my whole life that to be part of everyone else makes me someone..."
Even though you deleted that bit, cat, I think it is the truth. We are social beings. We have to be part of other people to make life worth living. We have to have friends and family who validate us. Our roles in life are child, sibling, spouse, parent, friend, employee, employer. All those are connections with others and we can't live without them - so it is natural to feel that way.
I think Penny made a very good point about our children teaching us how to be a parent. It's even been proven that chidren teach love to parents who were deprived of it themselves in childhood.
So it must be VERY difficult for a man to step into the role of being 'father' to a child of another culture. In Egypt children of broken marriages are very often brought up by grandparents, as both parents go off to create new lives for themselves. It's not a role or issue that is discussed in society, as it is in the West (where all sorts of books and support groups are available).
Having said that, your child has to come first. Ask any mother, even if they're married to the father of their children, the children are number one. Also, if you have to take sides in a disagreement, you HAVE to take your child's side. It would be unthinkable for your child to see you taking the side of a stranger who stepped into his life not so long ago. Your husband should understand that very well. He would do the same in your position. If you think your child is wrong, then discuss with him in private but don't let him think he's been displaced in your affections by a weird foreigner (!).
Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002
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I'd have to disagree with the opinion that Egyptian children are better behaved. Wasn't there a thread not so long ago saying the exact opposite?
Boys especially are usually very spoiled, especially in the department of looking after themselves! Their sisters will expected to do house chores while they go out and play football.
In the West, the democratic trend has spread to children who are allowed to express their opinions. In Egypt 'isma3 el-kalam' (literally 'listen to the word' but actually meaning 'do as you're told' is the most frequent admonishment to children and the most praised behaviour!) I don't think being brought up to obey without question is good. The consequences are 90% of Egyptian society following a routine job they don't believe in and don't know the purpose of. (Just try questioning any illogical regulation and you'll be told with a shrug 'ta3leemat' - instructions (from the boss)
Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by caterpillar: yes you are right and thank you. An interesting point came out though about the diference in the ways egyptians raise kids and the way we do in the west.
This could definately be a big issue. I see children as children, perhaps their concept of a child is more how ours used to be, that of miniture adult? What i see as being too harsh or disrespectful/authoritarian, might be for a lot of egyptian people just normal, child rearing. I agree with what was said about many egyptian/pakistani children being more well behaved? Are we hypersensitive in the west that every little comment will emotionally scar the child for life? have we gone too far the other way?
I know that when my son was small i was convinced that if i went to work before he was three that he would be emotionally scarred (thanks to Bowlby!!!) even though i didnt know half as much as i know now about child development, does the more you learn make it harder?
I think the most significant difference between the Western and the Egyptian way is that the Western way is laying much more weight to the fact that a childhood must be happy and fun. In every way they want to keep it all pleasant, on school, at home, with family, with friends, etc. Life isn`t fun, and Egyptians know that! Life is difficult and children have to be prepared on this. Very much more in Egypt there is difference between social levels, and the dangers in it. Very much more they warned me to stay away by people who can indeed be dagerous to me, because it is the way they deal with it, your side and my side and a big line in between. It is needed. And of course it isn`t this strictly in real, there are living good people in bad neighbourhoods. But in common it is to dangerous, because a lot of people want to take advantage of somebody who possible can offer them something.Anyhow...doesn`t have to be out of a relationship, can be everything...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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One of the theories I have heard in Egypt on raising a child is:-
- for the 1st 7 years let them just do what they want, they are just children and too young for harsh discipline so leave them to play. - for the second 7 years rule them with a rod of iron so they learn how to behave and what is expected of them. - for the third 7 years make them your best friend and keep them close to you and prepare them for adult life.
This might be a generation out of date now but I like the theory. Who here remembers the words...children should be seen and not heard...that was my fathers way of bringing children up LOL don't think it would work these days!
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: You're making bullshit blanket statements to the effect of "men are poopie, women are innocent little victims", if that works for you, fine.
posted
yes penny i remember those words,i have said it myself,about none biological parent,i could not have wished for a better father.who loved us all unconditionally,he has always been my gentle giant,we have just lost my mother,and i am so proud of the way he is copeing,even though his heart is breaking,the day he came into are lives,was the best thing to happen for all of us.
Posts: 126 | From: england | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: One of the theories I have heard in Egypt on raising a child is:-
- for the 1st 7 years let them just do what they want, they are just children and too young for harsh discipline so leave them to play. - for the second 7 years rule them with a rod of iron so they learn how to behave and what is expected of them. - for the third 7 years make them your best friend and keep them close to you and prepare them for adult life.
This might be a generation out of date now but I like the theory. Who here remembers the words...children should be seen and not heard...that was my fathers way of bringing children up LOL don't think it would work these days!
This is very wrong, my mother had a degree in child psychology and used to always stress that a child's personality is formed by the age of 4 years old, you can disclipine them and let them know what is expected of them (age appropriate of course) but letting them run wild is worst thing you could do. I see that clearly from the children here. I love Egypt and Egyptians but the children, God help me....
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I believe that if you have an open mind you adjust to what your child does need at a certain moment considering the childs possibilities. Therefore cultural 'rules' of upbringing have only so much effect. Only if people take them to rigidly. Kids want to grow and act appropriate and one does have to play into it.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MissJambi: its all in the way their mama raised them. when i have a son, if i have one, i will teach him how to treat a lady and when he grows up and if his wife ever comes to me saying he hit her or anything i will knock him the f*ck out.
The father usually has the greatest influence on male children.
If you look at statistics, fatherless households headed by single mothers are much more likely to produce male children that grow up to have unlawful tendencies and maladjusted behaviour.
The fact is, boys need a solid male role model to learn from, and the earlier in life this happens, the better his chances of turning out to be a respectable man.
I've seen this with my own nephew. Even at the age of 3, he idolizes me and tries to copy everything I do and say.
He regards my mother and sister completely differently than he does me. He will rebel against them, but he does not rebel against me.
Mothers are a biological necessity, but fathers are not.
Instead, fathers are a SOCIAL necessity, because they bring order to the family; and because Society is merely an extension of many families, fathers bring order to Society aswell.
This is one of the problems facing Western Civilization today.
Too many single mothers raising kids by themselves, and very little involvement of fathers in the lives of their children.
posted
I agree, Alistair. My sons rebel against me and other females (their aunts, grandmother, etc.)far more than they do the men in their life. Esp. their father. Their father hardly has to raise his voice to those boys and they fall in line.
Posts: 2735 | From: my desk | Registered: Jul 2005
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Yep, boys are naturally more aggressive and likely to rebel against authority than girls.
This is an effect of much higher testosterone levels. Higher testosterone levels also explain why most criminals are males.
Children need not only love, but DISCIPLINE and RESTRAINT; and boys need the last two more than girls.
Not saying it's impossible for a female parent to raise a male child properly.
But, it will be much harder for her than if she had a husband or male relative on hand to help her.
Because men are typically bigger, stronger and more dominant than women, there is always that extra healthy bit of FEAR male children have for their father, which makes it harder for them to be disobedient.
posted
If my son rebels against me and he does I can handle him myself thank you. I would be surprised if any of us women on ES would believe they can't. And I am sure my SIL does a great job too with her son. Maybe some middleclass women with restraint lives do have issues with their boys but I am coming from farmstock and working women as does my Egyptian family.
posted
Well, you obviously never read my post Demiana. I stated that it was not impossible for a single woman to raise a male child successfully on her own.
It would be much harder ofcourse, and she would NEED to have some kind of male model.
If not a father, then a grand father, a brother etc..
Some sort of male influence is needed, or the boy WILL turn into an effeminate sissy.
Even your PRO LESBIAN book acknowledges this, and goes into depth about how to find good male role models for the child.
Perhaps that book should be renamed to "How lesbians and feminists can raise sperm donored male children without fathers."
If you want to use an obviously biased book for evidence, then go right ahead.
I'm sure the sensible people on this forum will see it for what it is.
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