posted
Well I'm back from Egypt now and wanted to thank you all for your tips. Egypt was not at all like I had expected, the traffic in Cairo is a nightmare, but funnily enough on the way home on the English motorway I wanted to squeeze in between two cars So I am missing the hustle and bustle now.
I lived as an Egyptian for two weeks, no holiday resort and I can now say that at the time, whilst there, the traffic fumes, noise and buildings in downtown Cairo put me off wanting to live there, until I got home.
When we landed in England I cried, I was quite shocked at this but I just wanted to turn around and go back (dont think the rain helped much)...I didn't want to be at home.
Egypt was not at all like I had expected from this site, but I think thats because I hardly saw any foreigners and wasn't in a tourist area. I walked the streets alone, or with another female perfectly fine, the men could not care less - loads of women walk about on their own or in twos and I never once saw anyone getting hassled (although I'm sure this may be different in villages or depending on what you are wearing, majority of women in Cairo are either hijabis or modestly dressed (although still tight clothes) but no mini skirts etc.
I HATE the traffic, I HATE the fumes, I HATE the tower blocks, but I would still want to live there, I would like to do everything I can to move there (or elsewhere in Egypt) within the next 3 years InshaAllah
I LOVE the food in Citystars! I LOVE the people about all day just chilling out doing their thing, I LOVE hearing the Athan, I LOVE the arabic writing everywhere, I LOVE hearing arabic everywhere, I LOVE buildings having bawabs! I LOVE my Egyptian family and I LOVE that you can take your kids out at 10pm and shop or even have a haircut. Oh and I LOVE the Pyramids and the Zoo and the weather.
I am officially sad to be home, spent too much money, it was not romantic as I feel this board portrays it at times, the men were not monsters as this board portrays...(but like I said, maybe because I was in Cairo and not Luxor or Sharm etc) It was a normal city with some good and some bad points, and I do miss it already, I really do.
Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I never once saw anyone getting hassled
The fact that you didn't see or hear it does not mean it is not constantly happening in Cairo. There is a reason almost 100% of Egyptian women complain about being harassed regularly.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: (although I'm sure this may be different in villages or depending on what you are wearing, majority of women in Cairo are either hijabis or modestly dressed (although still tight clothes) but no mini skirts etc.
*sigh* Here we go again with the suggestion that the harassment has to do with what you wear and that only *immodestly* dressed women are getting harassed. Btw, I don't wear miniskirts. And despite the fact that my hair is uncovered, I consider myself more *modestly* dressed than many of the munajjabas with their skintight please-look-at-me outfits.
Good to hear you had a great time. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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aaah Mrs you're officially hooked now glad you had a great time.
I had a day as a tourist yesterday with my son, got more hassle than I have in the year i've been here!! he was haggling in the souk with some guy trying to sell him a scarf for 150LE, till the man turned and saw me, recognized me, face dropped, ahhh madam, ahh this is your son, welcome to Luxor, got down to 20LE
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I never once saw anyone getting hassled
The fact that you didn't see or hear it does not mean it is not constantly happening in Cairo. There is a reason almost 100% of Egyptian women complain about being harassed regularly.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: (although I'm sure this may be different in villages or depending on what you are wearing, majority of women in Cairo are either hijabis or modestly dressed (although still tight clothes) but no mini skirts etc.
*sigh* Here we go again with the suggestion that the harassment has to do with what you wear and that only *immodestly* dressed women are getting harassed. Btw, I don't wear miniskirts. And despite the fact that my hair is uncovered, I consider myself more *modestly* dressed than many of the munajjabas with their skintight please-look-at-me outfits.
Good to hear you had a great time.
*sigh*
ok Dalia, I didnt say it never happens I said I never saw any or experienced it. And whether its right or wrong you cant get away from the fact that men are more likely to comment on or hassle a women wearing next to nothing in ANY country. I agree with you 100% about the 'look at me' outfits.
Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Glad you had a nice time Mrs, it's good to see you back! Really missed your insight.
Ahh thank you Smuckers its nice to know someone cares x
Of course, I was just thinking about you the other day hoping you were enjoying yourself. PM me & let me know how your inlaws were! Big hugs. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: ok Dalia, I didnt say it never happens I said I never saw any or experienced it.
OK. But that's how it sounded to me, thus I felt a bit irritated at your remark. In the previous discussion on the subject you kept suggesting that it can't be worse in Cairo than in other places and that the ones of us who are complaining might be exaggerating. And your above remark basically seemed to say the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: And whether its right or wrong you cant get away from the fact that men are more likely to comment on or hassle a women wearing next to nothing in ANY country.
True. And I agree that clothing can make a difference in Cairo, but there's no way of dressing that will eliminate all harassment. You stated your positive experience and then went on to say that it "might be different depending on what you are wearing", suggesting that those who get harassed might somehow dress "too immodestly for Egypt". And that's wrong.
I'm not trying to have a go at you btw., so please don't take it that way. And I'm glad you had a hassle-free stay, I'm sure that made your experience much better.
I just feel the point about clothing is a common misconception that I often come across on this board. And since I don't like the underlying suggestion that we (i.e., women living in Egypt) might somehow be guilty of attracting the harassment because of our clothing, I feel I need to correct it whenever I see those claims.
I remember in some other thread an Egyptian guy recently suggested women visiting or living here should "do their homework" regarding dress code and maybe wear a "Benazir Bhutto style headscarf".
I found this suggestion very patronizing. Most women I know who come to visit Cairo or to live here are very aware of the cultural differences and perception of clothing. In fact, many European women I know worry much more about being dressed *appropriately* than many Egyptians. So most of us have done their homework, and it's a bit insulting to suggest we might be experiencing harassment because we've been ignorant of local customs!
Secondly, the remark showed me that the poster was completely unaware of the reasons and the nature of the problem. Otherwise he would know that baggy clothes or a shawl casually thrown over the head are not really a safeguard against harassment, particularly if you are obviously a foreigner. Even a scarf worn "Spanish style" (tied around the head and fixed in the back in a bun) won't make a difference. A *properly* tied hijab will though, in my experience the harassment is significantly less than with an uncovered head.
In fact, baggy clothes + unvovered hair means way more harassment than tight clothes + covered hair which, in my opinion, is a bit contradictory and warped. But it goes to show that particular cultural perceptions of modesty and other issues play a role here, too, it doesn't boil down to the simple formula "modest clothing = no harassment / indecent clothing = harassment".
Hope I'm making sense ...
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I agree with you 100% about the 'look at me' outfits.
Off topic ... I saw a veiled woman in Alex last week wearing a tight T-Shirt stating "sexy" in big golden letters on the chest. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I've seen worse than that Dalia, tried to get a photo of it on my mobile phone, husband stopped me. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeema: Also, if you need high factor sun lotion - I have HEARD but it may not be true - that the stuff here claiming to be high factor is not actually.
I usually bring sun protection lotion from Germany since I like to avoid chemical sunscreens, and they don't sell the ones with mineral sunscreens in Egypt.
But I did buy a sunblock here once that claimed it was SPF 100 and it was great. My skin is very sun-sensitive, but that stuff allowed to me to spend several hours on a Red Sea beach in August without getting burned at all.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Glad you had a nice time Mrs, it's good to see you back! Really missed your insight.
Ahh thank you Smuckers its nice to know someone cares x
Ohhhh...*hugs Mrs.* you were much missed here,Mrs.Your input is always an interesting one. Welcome! Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I never once saw anyone getting hassled
The fact that you didn't see or hear it does not mean it is not constantly happening in Cairo. There is a reason almost 100% of Egyptian women complain about being harassed regularly.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: (although I'm sure this may be different in villages or depending on what you are wearing, majority of women in Cairo are either hijabis or modestly dressed (although still tight clothes) but no mini skirts etc.
*sigh* Here we go again with the suggestion that the harassment has to do with what you wear and that only *immodestly* dressed women are getting harassed. Btw, I don't wear miniskirts. And despite the fact that my hair is uncovered, I consider myself more *modestly* dressed than many of the munajjabas with their skintight please-look-at-me outfits.
Good to hear you had a great time.
Yeahh,this is true Mrs.I walk around the same way Dalia mentions and it has happened to me twice.
<please-look-at-me outfits> ROFL
<
.....and NO,i have never been at the resorts!
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: Mrs.I walk around the same way Dalia mentions and it has happened to me twice.
Twice an hour or twice a day?
ROFL Need to clarify that it has happened to me twice since visiting Egypt.
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I understand what you are saying Dalia, really I do, and I am not saying that I think it NEVER happens, but I really am only comparing it to my experiences in England, if I walked down the street in what I used to wear in England (not that skimpy, but maybe tight) I would ALWAYS get some kind of hassle, except I didnt really see it as hassle, more like unwanted attention. I am nothing special but I do think men are just men. Maybe it depends what is meant by 'hassle' of course some men will comment on women or try it on, but dont they do that everywhere?
I also dont think that I look foreign, as everyone spoke to me in Egyptian, maybe this makes a difference? I did hear a man telling an English woman who was about to get on a camel at the pyramids that she 'had lovely eyes'
I'm not suggesting that women who wear tight/revealing clothes encourage these men, but men do comment on what they find attractive, and obviously the more they can see the more they will comment etc. I was gobsmacked at what so many of the hijabis wear, neck down, and I would be very surprised if men did not comment on them or 'hassle' them. Actually, as I was sitting by the side of the road, one walked past, a man came the other way and when they past each other he turned and looked at her bum in the tight jeans. Its crazy, maybe they didnt hassle me because there was alot more around to look at?
And no, I'm not suggesting we should all walk around in niqab, but men will always be men, they do the same in England, I just didnt find it worse. If anything I found it better, when you compare going down town on a friday night men are constantly trying to cop off with women walking from pub to pub, whereas in Cairo I didnt see that at all.
Sashyra and Shahzarat - thank you, big sloppy kisses to you both Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I understand what you are saying Dalia, really I do, and I am not saying that I think it NEVER happens, but I really am only comparing it to my experiences in England, if I walked down the street in what I used to wear in England (not that skimpy, but maybe tight)
Mrs, ever since I read your comments in the sexual harassment thread and spoke to some other ladies from the UK about the subject I've been wondering whether there is a difference between countries like the UK, the US, Germany etc. regarding this issue. Because I do not share your experience that men will hassle women in general.
I can say in all honesty that street harassment is almost non-existant in Germany, at least in the city I come from, no matter what you are wearing ... and I used to wear tank tops, miniskirts etc. in the past. The very few times I remember getting a comment back home, it was extremely tame compared to the aggressive approach of men in Egypt. And, I'm sorry to say, IF you get harassed in Germany it's usually by Arab or Turkish guys.
I have lived in San Francisco and in Manhattan for a while and remember that I did get the occasional comment here and there, nothing major but noticeably different from Germany. But still nothing compared to Cairo.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I would ALWAYS get some kind of hassle, except I didnt really see it as hassle, more like unwanted attention.
Hm, interesting ... I'd be curious as to how you define harassment and where it starts in your opinion.
For me ANY unwanted attention is harassment, that includes the ubiquitous remarks on my eyes and my *beauty* as well as any comment muttered under the breath while passing me such as "wallahi 3assal" / "ya eshta" and other such crap.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I do think men are just men.
I disagree because that suggests that men can't help harassing a beautiful or scantily dressed woman. But I think that's BS. Sure, men are more visual and enjoy looking, nothing wrong with that imo. But it's all about attitude. A man who respects women might just as well enjoy looking at some attractive lady who passes him in the street, but he would do it discreetly and he wouldn't think it's his god-given right to approach her, invade her private space or force her to listen to his opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I also dont think that I look foreign, as everyone spoke to me in Egyptian, maybe this makes a difference?
Yes, that makes a huge difference imo. You're lucky! Also, you mentioned you are veiled, so that surely played a role as well.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: Actually, as I was sitting by the side of the road, one walked past, a man came the other way and when they past each other he turned and looked at her bum in the tight jeans. Its crazy, maybe they didnt hassle me because there was alot more around to look at?
Maybe. But, as I mentioned earlier, I have been harassed when wearing extremely modest clothing (wide linen pants and knee-length lose shirt) while girls around me in skintight provocative clothing did not get harassed. That's why I believe it has a lot to do with the perception of a) Western women and b) women who don't cover their head.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: If anything I found it better, when you compare going down town on a friday night men are constantly trying to cop off with women walking from pub to pub, whereas in Cairo I didnt see that at all.
I haven't experienced anything like that Friday night scene you are describing back home. People who are on the lookout for a one night stand or a partner usually do that indoors in Germany, which is fine imo. At least it's up to every individual to chose whether they want to expose themselves to that or not.
Mrs, when I first came to Cairo I was in a state of serious shock about the harassment. I had days when I closed the door to my apartment behind me and sat down crying, feeling I wasn't even able to go to the store around the corner or ever leave the house again at all. There were also occasions when I felt so aggravated by repeated incindents in a single day that I've slapped guys in the face in the middle of the street. So I believe you when you say your experiences are different, but personally I cannot relate to that in any way. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I understand what you are saying Dalia, really I do, and I am not saying that I think it NEVER happens, but I really am only comparing it to my experiences in England, if I walked down the street in what I used to wear in England (not that skimpy, but maybe tight)
Mrs, ever since I read your comments in the sexual harassment thread and spoke to some other ladies from the UK about the subject I've been wondering whether there is a difference between countries like the UK, the US, Germany etc. regarding this issue. Because I do not share your experience that men will hassle women in general.
I can say in all honesty that street harassment is almost non-existant in Germany, at least in the city I come from, no matter what you are wearing ... and I used to wear tank tops, miniskirts etc. in the past. The very few times I remember getting a comment back home, it was extremely tame compared to the aggressive approach of men in Egypt. And, I'm sorry to say, IF you get harassed in Germany it's usually by Arab or Turkish guys.
I have lived in San Francisco and in Manhattan for a while and remember that I did get the occasional comment here and there, nothing major but noticeably different from Germany. But still nothing compared to Cairo.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I would ALWAYS get some kind of hassle, except I didnt really see it as hassle, more like unwanted attention.
Hm, interesting ... I'd be curious as to how you define harassment and where it starts in your opinion.
For me ANY unwanted attention is harassment, that includes the ubiquitous remarks on my eyes and my *beauty* as well as any comment muttered under the breath while passing me such as "wallahi 3assal" / "ya eshta" and other such crap.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I do think men are just men.
I disagree because that suggests that men can't help harassing a beautiful or scantily dressed woman. But I think that's BS. Sure, men are more visual and enjoy looking, nothing wrong with that imo. But it's all about attitude. A man who respects women might just as well enjoy looking at some attractive lady who passes him in the street, but he would do it discreetly and he wouldn't think it's his god-given right to approach her, invade her private space or force her to listen to his opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I also dont think that I look foreign, as everyone spoke to me in Egyptian, maybe this makes a difference?
Yes, that makes a huge difference imo. You're lucky! Also, you mentioned you are veiled, so that surely played a role as well.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: Actually, as I was sitting by the side of the road, one walked past, a man came the other way and when they past each other he turned and looked at her bum in the tight jeans. Its crazy, maybe they didnt hassle me because there was alot more around to look at?
Maybe. But, as I mentioned earlier, I have been harassed when wearing extremely modest clothing (wide linen pants and knee-length lose shirt) while girls around me in skintight provocative clothing did not get harassed. That's why I believe it has a lot to do with the perception of a) Western women and b) women who don't cover their head.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: If anything I found it better, when you compare going down town on a friday night men are constantly trying to cop off with women walking from pub to pub, whereas in Cairo I didnt see that at all.
I haven't experienced anything like that Friday night scene you are describing back home. People who are on the lookout for a one night stand or a partner usually do that indoors in Germany, which is fine imo. At least it's up to every individual to chose whether they want to expose themselves to that or not.
Mrs, when I first came to Cairo I was in a state of serious shock about the harassment. I had days when I closed the door to my apartment behind me and sat down crying, feeling I wasn't even able to go to the store around the corner or ever leave the house again at all. There were also occasions when I felt so aggravated by repeated incindents in a single day that I've slapped guys in the face in the middle of the street. So I believe you when you say your experiences are different, but personally I cannot relate to that in any way.
My experiences in Cairo are very much like Mrs too. I know we spoke about this D and maybe it is more of a UK thing though without a doubt there are others here from the UK who will not agree.
All I can say is that I personally have experienced very little harassment here compared to what I have experienced in the UK. Its worth noting that I travel around freely on the microbuses, metros, buses and trains and don't hide away in taxis. I rarely get a second glance from anyone except children or some fairly obvious 'village' people - mainly women! I'm 1m77, blonde and don't cover so its not like I even look Egyptian. When I wore a scarf once in January (in very cold weather) I did notice a even greater 'anonymous' feeling - I didn't even get 'first glances' but it was quite a subtle shift.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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I've never been harrassed the ways i've been in Egypt,and im a traveller world around.Not even in my hottie years.
.....and when i said i have been harrassed,yess,my butt was slapped!
....and nooooo,i was not scantily or inmodestly dressed.I was wearing loose,long sleeved tunic down to my knees over pants.
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeema: I'm 1m77, blonde and don't cover so its not like I even look Egyptian. When I wore a scarf once in January (in very cold weather) I did notice a even greater 'anonymous' feeling - I didn't even get 'first glances' but it was quite a subtle shift.
I agree, I noticed when you wear a headscarf people rather avoid staring at your face the way they usually do. They give you a quick look but avert their glance rapidly.
But, yeah, I've been wondering why you don't get that much crap although I'm sure you stand out even more than me because of your blonde hair. But maybe you scare them because you are so tall by Egyptian standards ...
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: Not even in my hottie years.
No way lady! I have seen your pic
erm I meant.........i have seen your pic so no way are you NOT a hottie, did it come out different to that? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
This is a very interesting discussion, and I seriously dont doubt your experiences Dalia, its such a shame that you have been upset by it in the past.
You are right, because men are men it does not give them the RIGHT, at all, I 100% agree. Let me explain, when I said that I didn't consider it hassle it was because I had become used to it, in fact, when I first started wearing loose clothing in England I felt ignored and it was the first time in many years that I had walked about the street with not the slightest notice by at least one man and to be perfectly honest I felt frumpy because of it! I had a eureka moment though, I realised that I had become conditioned by my society into believing that I should dress 'sexy' to be accepted, that although being ignored felt uncomfortable it was much more freeing, and this encouraged me to later wear the headscarf as well, it felt like I was putting two fingers up at pervy glances
I'm not exaggerating when I say that men do this in the UK, and Friday nights are definately like I describe in the towns I live in, half the time people meet each other in between pubs, not in them! Like Sash, I too have had my bum slapped etc on more than one occasion, but in the UK.
When I say, men are men, i'm not condoning it, i'm just resigned to it, and not all men are like this, the more respectful men should act discretely like you describe, if my husband had flirted with me when i met him i would have never bothered with him. Men on building sites in the UK are notorious for this, a woman CANNOT walk past men on a building site without the usual "allo darling" or worse "show us your T**S" truly gross and these men have no manners!
I have to say, to my shame, my ex was a little like this, soooooooo in your face, I used to cringe, probably why I opted for a much more reserved Muslim man and ditched the 'I must be sexy' mentality
I guess this just shows us that all our experiences are different, I do believe like you say that the fact that I wear a scarf and hijab (not 'look at me' hijab ) this makes a difference, plus I no longer even look at men as they are insignificant lol (joke).
It made a huge difference, like I said, in the UK wearing it, even non muslim men treated me more respectfully (at least thats how it felt as they stopped flirting i suppose).
I am sad for those of you that do experience it, i dont know what the answer is for you, aside from wearing a t shirt saying 'Beware - I break balls!'
on a side note, one thing made me really quite sad...adverts for the shop 'sxy' everywhere, saying something like 'sxy to be veiled', like you say Dalia, not only is it that Egyptian men have a view that it is ok to be this way towards western women (after all, like i said, UK men do!), but now they are advertising things like this to turn hijabis into something sexy! that really angered me, it seems that too many hijabis are also buying into this, which sadly takes away what its all about, this could also encourage men to drop their guard with hijabis if the women continue to buy into this and the advertising continues, i would hate to see this change, I dont want to have to end up wearing Niqab! (no offence to niqabis, but its not my choice)
Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: I had a eureka moment though, I realised that I had become conditioned by my society into believing that I should dress 'sexy' to be accepted, that although being ignored felt uncomfortable it was much more freeing, and this encouraged me to later wear the headscarf as well, it felt like I was putting two fingers up at pervy glances [Big Grin]
Wow. What an honest thing to write, and I admit I had the same feelings. It really forces you to look inward and question just what it is about yourself that you allow to be defined by other people. I was deathly afraid people were going to 'stare' at me, when nobody even paid me the slightest bit of attention.
I first began to wear hijab in the states, and the first time I wore it I decided to go shopping. That was my test. I had darting eyes, looking around to see who was staring at me, the looks on peoples faces, their eyes, I was hardly paying attention to my shopping. Finally I realized NOBODY cared what I was wearing on my head, what I looked like, I couldn't get more than a glance. As time passed I also didn't get the attention from the men, and I really NOTICED it. I felt as if I had lost something, but as time went by I stopped feeling that when I realized that I didn't need a man's attention to feel good about myself. I think that's where the liberation part of it everyone speaks of comes in. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I don't know what part of the UK the ladies are referencing. *Friday nights* in many cities in the UK, an entirely different world appears where young ladies wear outfits so skimpy and so extremely inappropriate for the weather, their flesh is blue from being exposed to the air. These outfits are obviously *pulling* (picking up men) outfits and frankly something prostitutes wear in movies.
But comparing the two major cities, Cairo and London, dressed in business-appropriate attire in the middle of a workday - there is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON to the extreme harassment one receives in Cairo. I've seen the type of skimpy outfits described out on the suburbs of London and they still get less looks than one would in a business outfit in Cairo.
Oh, and the touching issue in the UK, in my opinion, is a separate one as it involves binge/excess drinking of alcohol.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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I can only compare Cairo to USA myself, and I've been to Cairo maybe 10 times. I've never experienced more harrassment in my life than when I wasn't right next to my husband in Cairo. With some of the outfits some of the girls wear, I can't imagine they get any better...which begs the question 'why' ?? Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I felt as if I had lost something, but as time went by I stopped feeling that when I realized that I didn't need a man's attention to feel good about myself. I think that's where the liberation part of it everyone speaks of comes in.
Absolutely spot on, it's a wonderful feeling isn't it Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I felt exactly the same as you about Cairo. The beep beeps becamne a running joke. Every taxi ride was traumatic and crossing the road was enough to give me a nervous break down. The whole time i was there i would blow black dust from my nose and developed an anoying little tickle in my throat. When we got back to cairo from alex the polution hit me worse than before after all the fresh sea air in alex. But when i landed at manchester airport to the pouring rain and the miserable faces of staff and rude people almost trampling on my daughter to get past. I longed to get back on the plane and come back to the friendly people who would go out of their way to help. Who worshiped my daughter as much as i do. That didnt sigh in that annoying way at her coming to sit on a table next to them.
We never got harrased either. We found everyone so friendly and welcoming. One night we went for a meal on a boat down the nile and there was a wedding downstairs. As we went to the toilets me and my mum were trying to get a sneaky peek at the bride (as you do) and next thing we knew the doors flew open and we were being brought into the room and people were coming from everywhere saying welcome please eat and drink with us. We couldnt believe it. Had it been in England we would have been shunned for being gate crashers and removed from the party.
I have only been home for a day and a half and already i am planning my next trip to Cairo. I dislike England more than ever after living like an Egyptian.
Posts: 1710 | From: we come in peace | Registered: Mar 2008
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Oh my gosh! Those horrible mosquitoes! I had those same 2 inch "hills" on my legs and arms. One of them got infected and when I got back to USA I actually had to take an antibiotic and almost had to have surgery. It left a terrible reddish scar about the size of a dime and after 1 year it is still there and visible. These horrible pests got me in Hurghada.
Ah but I long to come back to Alex for an extended stay. My 4 visits there were the highlight of my life. It was good to go visit for month at a time and then return home.
As for packing...I'm ashamed to say I overpacked a whole lot! I ended up leaving several items of clothing so I could bring back my goodies.
One of the most important thing I packed was a bag of Folgers Coffee!!! and...my Splenda! Can't live without those 2 things! I even got my friend to loving the coffee so much he says now he is missing it.
Posts: 263 | From: Georgia USA | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by miffmiss: Had it been in England we would have been shunned for being gate crashers and removed from the party.
Yup, that would have happen, most likely! Great that you made such a good experience!
Cairo rocks even with all the noise, pollution, harassment etc. going on!!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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One of the most important things i packed was a very large fly swatter - no not to swat the mosquito's girls!!!! To swat the Egyptian men who think it's okay to touch what does not belong to them Posts: 1797 | From: By my husband's side | Registered: Nov 2007
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I felt exactly the same as you about Cairo. The beep beeps becamne a running joke. Every taxi ride was traumatic and crossing the road was enough to give me a nervous break down. The whole time i was there i would blow black dust from my nose and developed an anoying little tickle in my throat. When we got back to cairo from alex the polution hit me worse than before after all the fresh sea air in alex. But when i landed at manchester airport to the pouring rain and the miserable faces of staff and rude people almost trampling on my daughter to get past. I longed to get back on the plane and come back to the friendly people who would go out of their way to help. Who worshiped my daughter as much as i do. That didnt sigh in that annoying way at her coming to sit on a table next to them.
We never got harrased either. We found everyone so friendly and welcoming. One night we went for a meal on a boat down the nile and there was a wedding downstairs. As we went to the toilets me and my mum were trying to get a sneaky peek at the bride (as you do) and next thing we knew the doors flew open and we were being brought into the room and people were coming from everywhere saying welcome please eat and drink with us. We couldnt believe it. Had it been in England we would have been shunned for being gate crashers and removed from the party.
I have only been home for a day and a half and already i am planning my next trip to Cairo. I dislike England more than ever after living like an Egyptian.
just noticed this. Glad you had a good time miffmiss sounds like you had fun too.
Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Habeeby: One of the most important things i packed was a very large fly swatter - no not to swat the mosquito's girls!!!! To swat the Egyptian men who think it's okay to touch what does not belong to them
heheh a tortilia pan is faster and will hurt more!!!!!
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Wow Tina if i take that pan with me there will be a few flat heads in Sharm Posts: 1797 | From: By my husband's side | Registered: Nov 2007
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"As time passed I also didn't get the attention from the men, and I really NOTICED it. I felt as if I had lost something, but as time went by I stopped feeling that when I realized that I didn't need a man's attention to feel good about myself. I think that's where the liberation part of it everyone speaks of comes in."
Interesting, as most women I know wouldn't "need a man's attention to feel good about themselves". Most Muslim women I know in my country also don't cover their heads and don't complain about sexual harassment more than any other women do.
Harassment exists in every country but not at the intensity or level I witnessed in Egypt, where some women do feel pressured into covering (although some absolutely choose for themselves, based on faith). If covering helps a bit, it's understandable why so many women choose to.
"I can say in all honesty that street harassment is almost non-existant in Germany, at least in the city I come from, no matter what you are wearing ... and I used to wear tank tops, miniskirts etc. in the past. The very few times I remember getting a comment back home, it was extremely tame compared to the aggressive approach of men in Egypt"
Street harassment is also almost non-existent, in my experience, in the UK - and I've always dressed exactly as I pleased. Building sites and maybe walking past a group of men outside a pub are rare exceptions, but it is also extremely tame compared to what I've experienced in Egypt.
Generally, in the UK, when you go to purchase a sim card in a Vodafone store (with your husband waiting outside and a huge queue) the assistant doesn't ask you for a date and attempt to tell you his life story. Generally, taxi drivers don't make you feel very uncomfortable, hotel porters don't attempt to hit on you when taking cases to the room and men in the street don't block your path and try to talk to you. In a country where so many women cover their hair, I was shocked to find the level of street harassment was so high in a predominantly Muslim country. The examples I gave above were relatively minor and just the tip of the iceberg. From Egyptian women on this forum, I have heard much much worse. The experiences they and their sisters/friends have had have made me want to weep. They are too disgusting to even write about here.
I don't think it helps when some western women confuse what harassment actually is. On this forum, I've seen some unacceptable behaviour dressed up or dismissed - by a few women. Sadly, whenver I leave Egypt, it reminds me how bloody wonderful most western men actually are, in terms of street behaviour.
Posts: 1157 | From: Censor - Edit - Delete, but you will never take away my FREEDOM! | Registered: Dec 2007
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Good to see you lumos. I hear what you're saying but these things never happened to me once. I walked alone with my child many places, past many men, spoke to men, ordered things from shops, no one ever treated me improperly. When I walked with another woman on a few occasions, we shopped, stood in the street, walked past men as the streets were very busy. Not a peep from any man. When I walked about with my husband we had no problems, no one made comments. Nothing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I do believe what people say but I'm not the only person that has had no hassle? there are others here that live in Egypt and dont get hassled. I sometimes think the way its presented on here is quite scary and would make women feel like walking targets. I can only talk of my experience, as others do, i'm not out to prove or disprove anything.
Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: But lumos, these things never happened to me once. I walked alone with my child many places, past many men, spoke to men, ordered things from shops, no one ever treated me improperly. When I walked with another woman on a few occasions, we shopped, stood in the street, walked past men as the streets were very busy. Not a peep from any man. When I walked about with my husband we had no problems, no one made comments. Nothing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I do believe what people say but I'm not the only person that has had no hassle? there are others here that live in Egypt and dont get hassled. I sometimes think the way its presented on here is quite scary and would make women feel like walking targets. I can only talk of my experience, as others do, i'm not out to prove or disprove anything.
It's not the way is presented here,it happens.It's a fact.Take in consideration you only have visited Egypt ONCE,while i have around 4 times already.Sure,it has not happened to me every singles time,only twice for the moment and not on the same level.But how would you feel if some guy came and grabbed your bum almost at noon time while walking in the middle of Tahrir square?And i'm not repeating again the way i was followed around by another young guy....
Sure,that wont keep me from visiting again! Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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Mrs... good for you, but you have been to Egypt once, for a week or so recently, is that right? I respect your views but you haven't lived there your whole life. Neither have I. The accounts of women living in Egypt seem wholly credible to me. Maybe being covered with your son helped. Maybe you were accompanied a lot. Maybe you are just plain old lucky. How many days did you spend walking in Cairo alone? Two? Three? Give it more time and sadly your luck will definitely run out.
PS: Mrs, please tell us more about your other observations of Cairo - lets find some positives we agree on! Posts: 1157 | From: Censor - Edit - Delete, but you will never take away my FREEDOM! | Registered: Dec 2007
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I'm not declaring myself an expert, i'm just saying what my experience was, I was never advised by women family members that it is an uncomfortable place for women to walk about, and they HAVE lived there all their lives.
Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I'm not declaring myself an expert, i'm just saying what my experience was, I was never advised by women family members that it is an uncomfortable place for women to walk about, and they HAVE lived there all their lives.
This women from your husband family possibly did not wanted to scare you. Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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...May...be..., I had wondered why my sister in law was dressed as Lara Croft, I thought it was just the fashion Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.: I'm not declaring myself an expert, i'm just saying what my experience was, I was never advised by women family members that it is an uncomfortable place for women to walk about, and they HAVE lived there all their lives.
Mrs, Egyptians often don't seem to discuss harassment or paint a negative picture of Egypt to visitors. It wasn't like you or they needed to fear for your life. Sexual harassment in Egypt is more of a drip drip drip kind of constant, annoying background reality. It can be very direct too, but living with that long term must be exhausting. After a month, I've had enough.
Posts: 1157 | From: Censor - Edit - Delete, but you will never take away my FREEDOM! | Registered: Dec 2007
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So I am missing the hustle and bustle now.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Mrs.I walk around the same way Dalia mentions and it has happened to me twice.![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
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