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Fancy advising a young girl living in an Egyptian household with hubby and MIL to start talking to strangers on the internet. Bloody hell!!
Tell your daughter to sort her head out herself or she will have her passport burnt and she will get a good slap from a clearly already jealous hubby.
Arabic isn't difficult to learn if you live here. I have some very good audio which although is a little to classical may be of some use with every day converasations.
Do not allow her to talk to strange men online, she will end up on CNN ffs!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: She is feeling very restless and feels she is capable of walking the 2 blocks to the market by herself. She knows a little arabic and even if she doesn't know the name of an item she wants to buy, she can point to it. He tells her she has to wait until she speaks arabic.
Why in the world would she have to be able to speak Arabic in order to walk a few blocks?
My personal opinion ... the life your daughter is leading sounds like a nightmare to me. But, as others have pointed out, it is her choice and if she's happy that way, so be it. If not, it is up to her to change it. Cairo is a lively, vibrant, wonderful city with lots of things to do and many interesting people to meet. If she prefers to sit at home like a prisoner and let her husband dictate her every move, she will be depriving herself of the opportunity to make experiences, live and grow, which imo is what a young person should be doing. But again, if she is happy that way, it's not up to you, me, or anyone else on here to convince her that this is not right.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Taxi arabic, supermarket arabic, salutations and niceties... all very easy to learn if willing.
Understanding some words in the country you are travelling in I find common courtesy. When I travel anywhere I try to pick up some words...
Like Dalia said, if the said girl is happy no drama, nowt as queer as folk and we are not all the same. If she is not happy she needs to find her voice before insanity gets to her!!!
Does her hubbys family speak good english if she speaks no arabic?
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I was telling hubby tonight about this post and he was genuinly surprised by it.
Posts: 4476 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2006
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I just wonder what her husband has done for her. She has made a major life change, left her family, friends, country, culture, life to be with him. Does he not realise the enormity of that? Mixed culture marriages are just that, mixed. She will never be Egyptian, and it isn't all about his way of doing things. It seems that most of the successful relationships here, are the ones where people have met a good middle ground between their cultures.
quote: I was telling hubby tonight about this post and he was genuinly surprised by it.
I asked Hossam if his sister had a key, and he looked at me as a weirdo and said "of course she does". If she isn’t studying, why doesn’t she join an Arabic class? She will learn the language quicker, and have at least a little independence and time away.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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Cause her new husband wants to have complete control over her; he simply is a control freak. And yes he was the same guy who told her not to go out in the evening even when they lived thousand of miles away from each other. Perhaps at this point she felt flattered that he 'cared' so much about her.
Now I am sure that Egyptmom's daughter will wish after a while her freedom back she enjoyed while growing up in America. Sometimes things have to get out of your hands to realize how precious they actually were.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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How on earth can people love men who treat them like shite, talk to them like they are objects and force them to lead lives that mirror that of animals.
Are people so desperate for love and marriage!!!!!!
I bet back in the day when women were fighting for womens rights and liberation they never imagined the internet and cheap hols enabling women to meet men like this would pis$ all over their efforts!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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could not agree more LF....but i think she is only 18....first love and all that crap and heartache that goes with it.....god if i knew then what i knew now....but i do agree with what you say....my ex was the same....he tried to control but failed.... Posts: 312 | From: my world | Registered: Sep 2007
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A guy tried to control me once, I bounced an alarm clock off his head. I was 18 then!!!
Fair enough, she is young and naive and I guess we all can remember how wise we all thought we were back then... I just hope pride isn't keeping her there then.
Like I said, I know ladies here without keys, but they are being controlled by their Father's and not by men claiming to love them as a wife.
I only hope she misses her old life enough to want it back.
Egyptmom, I really feel for you, I cannot imagine how you are feeling!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: I guess I'm becomming less upset about it now. When I first found out that she still didn't have a key, I felt he was treating her as a prisoner or that he didn't trust her. It has been his choice not to give her one not MIL's.
Sometime she is going to need to go out or go home on her own - it is a safety issue. She has no where to go, no home that she can enter without someone with her.
She is feeling very restless and feels she is capable of walking the 2 blocks to the market by herself. She knows a little arabic and even if she doesn't know the name of an item she wants to buy, she can point to it. He tells her she has to wait until she speaks arabic. I wonder if she will ever know enough arabic to go out on her own?
School just never got done. They never made it to the University to check it out and now I believe it has already begun. So I guess it wasn't that important to her.
I know she has to learn to fight her own battles with him so I try to stay out of it as much as possible. That is why I talk you ES'ers.
Thanks for all your comments.
It costs all of 1 LE to have an extra key made and there's a key maker on just about every block. He'll even deliver.
BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? If so, for what? Does she know where to get what she wants to buy? That's half of the battle. Then there's the pricing. Can she read the Arabic numerals yet? Does she understand the currency? Does she know how to ask how much something costs if there isn't pricing (which isn't unusual)? Will she know how to get home when she's ready to return? Most neighborhoods look alike (lots of CEMENT and BROWN). Exactly alike.
No. Although I agree she should have a key (why on God's Green Earth are we even having this discussion? isn't a key a right?) that doesn't mean she should go outside on her own. Instead, she needs to learn a little bit about the language.
Tell her to sit down in front of the television set, like a good little Egyptian wife. Stare at the recitation of the Qu'ran until she learns what the numbers look like. They're in order; she'll figure it out fast enough. Then, tell her to start working on the dramas/soap operas on in the afternoon. She'll learn quickly.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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There wont be any key for her,nor more education,much less going out nowhere,since i remember reading here from Roqayya herself that he told her she didnt need to go out to a mosque to pray cause she was gonna pray at home.
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: I guess I'm becomming less upset about it now. When I first found out that she still didn't have a key, I felt he was treating her as a prisoner or that he didn't trust her. It has been his choice not to give her one not MIL's.
Sometime she is going to need to go out or go home on her own - it is a safety issue. She has no where to go, no home that she can enter without someone with her.
She is feeling very restless and feels she is capable of walking the 2 blocks to the market by herself. She knows a little arabic and even if she doesn't know the name of an item she wants to buy, she can point to it. He tells her she has to wait until she speaks arabic. I wonder if she will ever know enough arabic to go out on her own?
School just never got done. They never made it to the University to check it out and now I believe it has already begun. So I guess it wasn't that important to her.
I know she has to learn to fight her own battles with him so I try to stay out of it as much as possible. That is why I talk you ES'ers.
Thanks for all your comments.
It costs all of 1 LE to have an extra key made and there's a key maker on just about every block. He'll even deliver.
BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? If so, for what? Does she know where to get what she wants to buy? That's half of the battle. Then there's the pricing. Can she read the Arabic numerals yet? Does she understand the currency? Does she know how to ask how much something costs if there isn't pricing (which isn't unusual)? Will she know how to get home when she's ready to return? Most neighborhoods look alike (lots of CEMENT and BROWN). Exactly alike.
No. Although I agree she should have a key (why on God's Green Earth are we even having this discussion? isn't a key a right?) that doesn't mean she should go outside on her own. Instead, she needs to learn a little bit about the language.
Tell her to sit down in front of the television set, like a good little Egyptian wife. Stare at the recitation of the Qu'ran until she learns what the numbers look like. They're in order; she'll figure it out fast enough. Then, tell her to start working on the dramas/soap operas on in the afternoon. She'll learn quickly.
I have to agree with this... if she gets a key and goes out what the hell is she going to do without basic language skills. You have to at least know where you live in arabic. Even if hubby wrote it in arabic for her many taxi drivers cannot read.
I would be DEMANDING I at least go for walks out for health reasons and get to learn my own area... basic needs such as exercise, air(notice I left fesh out lol) and a change of scenery.
I amn a firm believer in if you wouldn't stand for it in your own country and culture why would you accept it in another. So many women drop their standards for such morons! We all deserve to be treated the way we deserve and expect...
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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To tell you the truth my Egyptian guest parents were complete @ssholes. On my first day in Cairo the guest mother took me to see the pyramids in a car driving by and it was quite overwhelming to see the city and the people as I had never been there before. On day 3 we 'surprisingly' left for a long vacation (well I had to take care of the children while the mother was working during the day, the husband stayed back in Cairo and just came to visit every weekend) - a fact which they didn't share with me on the phone before.
They didn't show me anything, f.e. how to take a cab, how much to pay etc. I learned everything little by little. The first Arabic words I picked up from the grandmother of the boys I looked after when she came to visit us while we were on vacation near Suez. God the hotel we stayed at nothing was going on, I was the only foreigner.
Finally after we came back from there after 7 or 8 weeks I was able to explore Cairo and thankfully her sister employed also a German au-pair (but just for the summer) and so we met the following Friday (this day was my usual day off). I knew I lived in Dokki and I had a street map on how to get to the Egyptian museum. I walked cause I was scared to take a cab. And my English vocabulary was so limited back then too. It was a tough time.
Yeah that was my beginning. But soon I would improve my skills of where I am and how to speak. The one night I was allowed to go out (and stay overnight somewhere else too because of "family reputation issues") I met some German expats who knew another family in need of a nanny. Voila, once I ran off from Dokki I was free as a bird and living in Cairo become much more fun.
I could have not survived to live with this family for a whole year as I originally planned to. Everything was just so complicated. They held my passport and said I would get it returned once I receive a visa for Switzerland. Visa? Me?? I didn't need one but I was 20 and didn't know any better.
I loved both boys though, they were darlings for sure. It bugged me for quite some time that I was not able to say goodbye to them on the day I left. By chance our paths would cross again at later points.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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It costs all of 1 LE to have an extra key made and there's a key maker on just about every block. He'll even deliver.
BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? If so, for what? Does she know where to get what she wants to buy? That's half of the battle. Then there's the pricing. Can she read the Arabic numerals yet? Does she understand the currency? Does she know how to ask how much something costs if there isn't pricing (which isn't unusual)? Will she know how to get home when she's ready to return? Most neighborhoods look alike (lots of CEMENT and BROWN). Exactly alike.
No. Although I agree she should have a key (why on God's Green Earth are we even having this discussion? isn't a key a right?) that doesn't mean she should go outside on her own. Instead, she needs to learn a little bit about the language.
Tell her to sit down in front of the television set, like a good little Egyptian wife. Stare at the recitation of the Qu'ran until she learns what the numbers look like. They're in order; she'll figure it out fast enough. Then, tell her to start working on the dramas/soap operas on in the afternoon. She'll learn quickly. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Actually, she does know some arabic - I would guess 200 words or so. Knows her numbers and Alphabet in arabic. They don't live in Cairo but in a smaller town outside - the market is 2 blocks away. She just wants to take a walk now and then and go get some groceries if she needs something.
Posts: 66 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Okay I get the picture. Your daughter lives in a rural and quite traditional area and so are the people (well even within certain areas in Cairo you have that).
You know her husband gotta meet his wife half way, he gotta keep her happy. He cannot keep your daughter inside the apartment like that, IMHO even if she goes in the beginning with her MIL or another female family member or neighbor to run some errands would be a progress until he's more comfortable with her leaving the apartment by herself.
Sorry but this just comes to my mind again and I am aware that I told you this already previously several times before but URGE her not to become pregnant for the next few years until she's sure of this marriage and life in Egypt in general. And address education with her again.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Why can't her husband do what mine has always done wherever we have lived i.e take her to the market the first time, introduce her to the sellers and leave them in no uncertain terms there will be hell to pay if they don't charge her the correct prices, then introduce her ( proudly) to the local people so they know who she is and they will then keep an eye out for her.
He should be helping her to integrate into the local community not isolatiing her at home.
We are talking about a small town here not a big city this is very easy for him to do.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think that its easy to say this girl is being 'kept' indoors when you look at it from the outside.
Lets just assume for a minute that he is worried about her if she leaves the house. I agree that he does seem overly 'protective' and we might say controlling, but remember the basis of needing to control is fear. So basically he is either afraid she will get her independance and not need him anymore, or he is afraid something might happen to her...these are the things that she needs to discuss with him.
I think its a very delicate situation tbh, telling roqqaya that she 'should' have a key, that its her 'right' to have a key, that her husband is 'controlling' her, that she is letting down 'women' that fought for rights, and being a 'doormat', that she should 'demand' from him...all of which has been said on this thread, will only isolate her further.
What she needs is advice that will help her to resolve her problem, not advice that will make her feel like sh!t.
Posts: 140 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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Just some of the positions held in Egypt by Egyptian women:
Artists, designers, theatre directors, professors of economics, medicine, various sciences, politicians including ministerial posts, MPs, directors of NGOs, legal profession, athletes - pentathletes, mountineer, international squash players, olympic wrestler, journalists, heads of business, even a trucker!
I bet they all have their own key.
Has he whacked her one yet and said "now look what you made me do"? (NB This is not a comment about Egyptian men but about Control Freak men who we know abound the world over in all classes of society).
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Actually, she does know some arabic - I would guess 200 words or so. Knows her numbers and Alphabet in arabic. They don't live in Cairo but in a smaller town outside - the market is 2 blocks away. She just wants to take a walk now and then and go get some groceries if she needs something.
Okay, so she recognizes the numbers and she can sound words out as she sees them. Does she speak Arabic? Egyptian Arabic? There is a difference.
About those groceries. I'm sure the SIL already has himself marked as the shopping guy so she can forget running out for parsley. Where would she get money to shop? Is he working?
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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You don't need much Arabic to get buy if you do shopping and obviously she's well prepared but he doesn't wanna give her any freedom.
As Egyptmom stated it's a small city so more or less everyone knows each other. Now I understand that he wouldn't want her to speak to other males besides the store clerk. But I can't think of any other issues cause Egypt in general is a safe place to be and people are very helpful even if you just speak no or very limited Arabic. Seriously what should happen to her there????
Well it's the typical Egyptian mentality displayed by too many males. I repeat myself it's the matter of a different culture and upbringing.
I remember I once forgot something inside the apartment of the hotel where I stayed with my Egyptian guest family and shortly afterwards my guest father came to check as he knew his brother is inside and watching TV too. Gosh, I don't know what they thought. That we gonna fall straight over each other and do something 'haram'???
Roqayya needs to get out and make first hand experience. What about if something ever happens to him and then she's on her own in Egypt and doesn't know anybody or where to turn to for help??
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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The best protection a husband with a foriegn wife can give is to help and teach her to stand on her own two feet in his country. If he does anything less then he is not protecting her.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think her husband is worried more or less about her getting mugged in case she's left alone in the house, so doesn't want her to be independent with a seperate key, nor does he want her on the streets alone as she could be harassed..I think he's simply over protecting her.
Her arabic vocabulary should basically comprise hard core insults and profane terms with their exact and precise phraseology, since this is used daily and is the 'entry level' of egyptian arabic language that every foreigner must master.
I've got an Italian friend (old lady) that's been living in Cairo for like 18 yrs. who can perform a full repertoire of insults to street harassers and wackos (who are in majority) then tops it up with a typical funculo/putta formulation for the grand finale..then watches the looks on those mesmerized fvck faces for personal satisfaction and self-esteem. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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Originally posted by Tigerlily: Vaffanculo, Dzosser!
Hey I learnt that in Egypt too!!
Yeah, that's the word TL..the way she performs is amazingly stunning. she knows her way around better than we egyptians do, she's learnt all our con tricks the hard way. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Actually, she does know some arabic - I would guess 200 words or so. Knows her numbers and Alphabet in arabic. They don't live in Cairo but in a smaller town outside - the market is 2 blocks away. She just wants to take a walk now and then and go get some groceries if she needs something.
Okay, so she recognizes the numbers and she can sound words out as she sees them. Does she speak Arabic? Egyptian Arabic? There is a difference.
About those groceries. I'm sure the SIL already has himself marked as the shopping guy so she can forget running out for parsley. Where would she get money to shop? Is he working?
One of the great things about Egyptians is that they're incredibly hospitable and friendly - and if you're a foreigner who doesn't speak their language, they will go out of their way to help and welcome you. Utter nonsense that you must speak Arabic in order to TAKE A WALK.
Also, this may be a cultural thing, but people like to go for a walk. Not to shop, not to visit. The walking is an activity all by itself. I know, shocking.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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One of the great things about Egyptians is that they're incredibly hospitable and friendly - and if you're a foreigner who doesn't speak their language, they will go out of their way to help and welcome you. Utter nonsense that you must speak Arabic in order to TAKE A WALK.
Also, this may be a cultural thing, but people like to go for a walk. Not to shop, not to visit. The walking is an activity all by itself. I know, shocking.
Exactly. 100%.
One of my very first visits to Cairo, I had a big argument with a taxi driver quite late at night, got out and walked - for over 2 hours - with the map - upside down wondering why none of the street names matched - and ended up who knows where (I figure it was probably Imbaba)
At 2am, obviously very distressed, some Egyptians managed to figure out where I was trying to go (my arabic nonexistent then and I discovered that Egyptians on the whole can't read maps), got a taxi for me and agreed the price with the driver for me. 10LE I recall to go to Dokki.
(Oh yes and I just remembered - last summer I got lost in Shubra - no street names on the map - and I asked where to find a bus in a coffee shop and a guy walked about 15 mins with me to find the bus to ramsees, waited for an appropriate bus to come and told the driver where I was going (this bit was unnecessary but I appreciated the trouble he took). ) No hassle, no groping, no comments. Just help.
Egyptians are kindness itself. When I'm out and about I see constant small acts of kindness between people.
If she doesn't go out, she won't learn the sounds of the language, have opportunity to practice it, she won't learn prices, won't learn to hear when an Egyptian has been charged less than her for the same thing. So what if she can't speak arabic - pointing and pantomime and a bit of 'aiwa' and 'la' and 'lowsamat' will go a long way and she will learn in time. Half the battle is learning the 'melody' of the language - the stress patterns - which you begin to absorb as you listen - which native speakers are normally unconscious of. (Like when I first moved here, waiting for a bus to RAMZees for over an hour, wondering why one never came, but there seemed to be thousands going to some place called rmZEES).
Trying to learn arabic from an english-speaking Egyptian - husband or otherwise - doesn't work. (By which I mean someone untrained in language teaching - different if your hub is a trained teacher.)
It is very easy as a foreigner here to let your husband do everything and lose confidence in your own ability to not just survive but positively get about on your own.
The other issue is walking for its own sake. She needs to stay healthy.
Obesity in women is a huge (pun not intended) in Egypt, at one point being the HIGHEST national incidence IN THE WORLD.
I know one of my neighbours is horrified that I actually WALK to the souk - I mean - its a whole 10 minutes away!!! If she sees me she offers me a lift!
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Actually, she does know some arabic - I would guess 200 words or so. Knows her numbers and Alphabet in arabic. They don't live in Cairo but in a smaller town outside - the market is 2 blocks away. She just wants to take a walk now and then and go get some groceries if she needs something.
Okay, so she recognizes the numbers and she can sound words out as she sees them. Does she speak Arabic? Egyptian Arabic? There is a difference.
About those groceries. I'm sure the SIL already has himself marked as the shopping guy so she can forget running out for parsley. Where would she get money to shop? Is he working?
One of the great things about Egyptians is that they're incredibly hospitable and friendly - and if you're a foreigner who doesn't speak their language, they will go out of their way to help and welcome you. Utter nonsense that you must speak Arabic in order to TAKE A WALK.
Also, this may be a cultural thing, but people like to go for a walk. Not to shop, not to visit. The walking is an activity all by itself. I know, shocking.
AGREED... and it is shocking that folk just want to walk but amazingly it is true
There are numerous parks all over the city where folk just go to excercise and walk. Parks are full of people with ipods just power walking in a morning.
And *shock* there is a Hash (walking club) where us folk meet up every week to just go walking to see parts of Cairo most folk don't even know existed.
I believe everybody should learn how to be courteous in the language of the place they are visiting. It is not a difficult language to pick up if you are immersed in it daily. I also find the more you try to communicate in their language the more and more hospitable they become. I love to practice my Arabic, in return Egyptians love to practise their English...
As for profanities, I have mastered how to say "this man is a problem, I think he is either drunk or a glue sniffer" Soon shifts them... I do make a large scene if men annoy me.
This young lady needs to just tell hubby if she does not go out alone to get some air and to gather her thoughts that she will go insane and most likely become very homesick. It needn't be a confrontational discussion.
If any folk in Cairo would like to join the Hash, email me and I will pass on the details, it is a very very good day out. Lots of fun and a great way to keep fit and meet new folk. My social life has soared since joining.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I have a friend who is a heart surgeon and he advises his patients who have had heart surgery to walk around City Stars. He believes walking is the best form of excercise (as do I) and if doing it while looking around shops etc.. in clean air they will recover much quicker and some be fighting fit again without even realising they have been excersing.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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agree with lf.... as per ... If she doesnt go out, alone for a walk she will regret it. I do.
Posts: 1248 | From: my sex is on fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | Registered: Aug 2008
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Egymom, you have a first hand example here of somebody who regretted not getting out and about. This story is real and first hand experiences are better than any of summising or second guessing what the outcome could be.
I am just thankful I can travel this beautiful city and have my flighty freedom. If I was told I could not go out or not be entrusted to a key I would rather go back to the UK.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Actually, she does know some arabic - I would guess 200 words or so. Knows her numbers and Alphabet in arabic. They don't live in Cairo but in a smaller town outside - the market is 2 blocks away. She just wants to take a walk now and then and go get some groceries if she needs something.
Okay, so she recognizes the numbers and she can sound words out as she sees them. Does she speak Arabic? Egyptian Arabic? There is a difference.
About those groceries. I'm sure the SIL already has himself marked as the shopping guy so she can forget running out for parsley. Where would she get money to shop? Is he working?
One of the great things about Egyptians is that they're incredibly hospitable and friendly - and if you're a foreigner who doesn't speak their language, they will go out of their way to help and welcome you. Utter nonsense that you must speak Arabic in order to TAKE A WALK.
Also, this may be a cultural thing, but people like to go for a walk. Not to shop, not to visit. The walking is an activity all by itself. I know, shocking.
I never said someone had to know the language to take a walk. I think it's clear this young lady isn't free to head out for a stroll whenever she gets the notion. It's not necessary to have a key in order to take a walk, particularly if MIL is at home to let her back in when she returns. The issue here is the new bride is on lock down.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? If so, for what? Does she know where to get what she wants to buy? That's half of the battle. Then there's the pricing. Can she read the Arabic numerals yet? Does she understand the currency? Does she know how to ask how much something costs if there isn't pricing (which isn't unusual)? Will she know how to get home when she's ready to return? Most neighborhoods look alike (lots of CEMENT and BROWN). Exactly alike.
No. Although I agree she should have a key (why on God's Green Earth are we even having this discussion? isn't a key a right?) that doesn't mean she should go outside on her own. Instead, she needs to learn a little bit about the language.
Tell her to sit down in front of the television set, like a good little Egyptian wife. Stare at the recitation of the Qu'ran until she learns what the numbers look like. They're in order; she'll figure it out fast enough. Then, tell her to start working on the dramas/soap operas on in the afternoon. She'll learn quickly. [/QB]
which areas am i misinterpreting
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? If so, for what? Does she know where to get what she wants to buy? That's half of the battle. Then there's the pricing. Can she read the Arabic numerals yet? Does she understand the currency? Does she know how to ask how much something costs if there isn't pricing (which isn't unusual)? Will she know how to get home when she's ready to return? Most neighborhoods look alike (lots of CEMENT and BROWN). Exactly alike.
No. Although I agree she should have a key (why on God's Green Earth are we even having this discussion? isn't a key a right?) that doesn't mean she should go outside on her own. Instead, she needs to learn a little bit about the language.
Tell her to sit down in front of the television set, like a good little Egyptian wife. Stare at the recitation of the Qu'ran until she learns what the numbers look like. They're in order; she'll figure it out fast enough. Then, tell her to start working on the dramas/soap operas on in the afternoon. She'll learn quickly.
which areas am i misinterpreting [/QB]
You did and you didn't. Can we just let that part go and I'll take a few minutes to say what I've been wanting to say all along and haven't taken the proper time to do so?
Hoping you'll agree....
Babygirl decides to dash off to a foreign country, get married, and live there forever after.
After three months into said marriage, new wife not only doesn't have a key with which to assert some kind of independence, she's limited to some 200 words of the foreign language.
And she's crying about it.
She wants to leave the house to go for a walk or maybe to do some shopping. I said, and still say, that's a bad idea. She agreed to go live there under a certain set of conditions and now that she's got to live in what she agreed to, she doesn't like it. Too bad. That's what all of the discussion/negotiation/preparation prior to the marriage was for. If she wanted freedom, she should have included a clause that says something like "I come and go as I please" in her marriage contract. But she didn't. Instead, she agreed to sitting in a flat all day and getting out when her husband decided she can go.
Sure, she should have a key. There's no reason she shouldn't. However, I maintain, she shouldn't be trotting off outside all on her own. That's not what her husband signed up for and she doesn't have the right to change that now.
More than that, the new wife needs to expand her vocabulary. Unless, of course, she doesn't mind feeling alone in a room full of people, which is what I'm absolutely certain constitutes her day.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: She wants to leave the house to go for a walk or maybe to do some shopping. I said, and still say, that's a bad idea. She agreed to go live there under a certain set of conditions and now that she's got to live in what she agreed to, she doesn't like it. Too bad. That's what all of the discussion/negotiation/preparation prior to the marriage was for. If she wanted freedom, she should have included a clause that says something like "I come and go as I please" in her marriage contract. But she didn't. Instead, she agreed to sitting in a flat all day and getting out when her husband decided she can go.
Sure, she should have a key. There's no reason she shouldn't. However, I maintain, she shouldn't be trotting off outside all on her own. That's not what her husband signed up for and she doesn't have the right to change that now.
So are you saying that what once has been negotiated can never be changed? That's rather cruel if you meant it like that. As far as I remember she even never visited Egypt before so she has no way of knowing how things will be or what she will like and feel here. It is not fair to decide something almost forever if you have no experience of it. Things should ALWAYS be possible to change later on, or at least discussing about it.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: She wants to leave the house to go for a walk or maybe to do some shopping. I said, and still say, that's a bad idea. She agreed to go live there under a certain set of conditions and now that she's got to live in what she agreed to, she doesn't like it. Too bad. That's what all of the discussion/negotiation/preparation prior to the marriage was for. If she wanted freedom, she should have included a clause that says something like "I come and go as I please" in her marriage contract. But she didn't. Instead, she agreed to sitting in a flat all day and getting out when her husband decided she can go.
Sure, she should have a key. There's no reason she shouldn't. However, I maintain, she shouldn't be trotting off outside all on her own. That's not what her husband signed up for and she doesn't have the right to change that now.
So are you saying that what once has been negotiated can never be changed? That's rather cruel if you meant it like that. As far as I remember she even never visited Egypt before so she has no way of knowing how things will be or what she will like and feel here. It is not fair to decide something almost forever if you have no experience of it. Things should ALWAYS be possible to change later on, or at least discussing about it.
Foreign women, Muslim or otherwise, marrying Muslim Egyptian men in Egypt MUST agree to an Islamic marriage. An Islamic marriage includes a marriage contract, which was where all of this should have been sorted out. It's not the SIL's job to assert or assure his future wife's rights. That was for her family/wali to do. Can it be re-negotiated? I don't know; that would be a question for a lawyer.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? BUT what's she gonna do when she gets outside? Shop? If so, for what? Does she know where to get what she wants to buy? That's half of the battle. Then there's the pricing. Can she read the Arabic numerals yet? Does she understand the currency? Does she know how to ask how much something costs if there isn't pricing (which isn't unusual)? Will she know how to get home when she's ready to return? Most neighborhoods look alike (lots of CEMENT and BROWN). Exactly alike.
No. Although I agree she should have a key (why on God's Green Earth are we even having this discussion? isn't a key a right?) that doesn't mean she should go outside on her own. Instead, she needs to learn a little bit about the language.
Tell her to sit down in front of the television set, like a good little Egyptian wife. Stare at the recitation of the Qu'ran until she learns what the numbers look like. They're in order; she'll figure it out fast enough. Then, tell her to start working on the dramas/soap operas on in the afternoon. She'll learn quickly.
which areas am i misinterpreting
You did and you didn't. Can we just let that part go and I'll take a few minutes to say what I've been wanting to say all along and haven't taken the proper time to do so?
Hoping you'll agree....
Babygirl decides to dash off to a foreign country, get married, and live there forever after.
After three months into said marriage, new wife not only doesn't have a key with which to assert some kind of independence, she's limited to some 200 words of the foreign language.
And she's crying about it.
She wants to leave the house to go for a walk or maybe to do some shopping. I said, and still say, that's a bad idea. She agreed to go live there under a certain set of conditions and now that she's got to live in what she agreed to, she doesn't like it. Too bad. That's what all of the discussion/negotiation/preparation prior to the marriage was for. If she wanted freedom, she should have included a clause that says something like "I come and go as I please" in her marriage contract. But she didn't. Instead, she agreed to sitting in a flat all day and getting out when her husband decided she can go.
Sure, she should have a key. There's no reason she shouldn't. However, I maintain, she shouldn't be trotting off outside all on her own. That's not what her husband signed up for and she doesn't have the right to change that now.
More than that, the new wife needs to expand her vocabulary. Unless, of course, she doesn't mind feeling alone in a room full of people, which is what I'm absolutely certain constitutes her day. [/QB]
A "I come and go as I please" in her marriage contract? Is that a joke or are you seriously under the assumption that kind of thing is written into a marriage contract in Egypt?
Marriages are always compromises, whether there are cultural differences or not. To suggest that a woman who has never been to Egypt was suppose to know exactly what she was getting into is ludicrous. To further suggest once in a situation, one has no right to change his/her opinion, perspective or feelings and must stay in that situation is...well, it's beyond stupidity and I think you're just writing down drivel to provoke.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
So, let's just say new wife thinks she won't have a problem co-wifing. She's so fine with it she doesn't put her objections into her marriage contract. Then, as happens, one day the husband trots in with his next conquest. Much to #1's surprise, having a #2 around isn't as peaches and cream as she thought it would be. Can she take her objection to court and get a divorce? NO, because she didn't put it in her marriage contract.
Eduction, travel/travel restrictions, children, property, pets, etc., etc., etc. Those ALL have a place in a marriage contract. Every single bit of it. That's why it's called a CONTRACT.
No, I'm not trying to provoke. I'm saying she made an agreement and now she doesn't like living with it. Boo hoo.
And Ahmad, you with your smart mouth, if the unlucky being who's parent agree to betroth her to you suggests she would like to leave the house without your permission, consent, and/or knowledge in her marriage contract, which she has the right to do, would you still marry her?
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: Foreign women, Muslim or otherwise, marrying Muslim Egyptian men in Egypt MUST agree to an Islamic marriage. An Islamic marriage includes a marriage contract, which was where all of this should have been sorted out. It's not the SIL's job to assert or assure his future wife's rights. That was for her family/wali to do. Can it be re-negotiated? I don't know; that would be a question for a lawyer.
You for sure make marriage sound like a cold and hard business deal. I know many times it is a contract because many do not marry for love. But if marriage is only a contract when the answer is there - any contract can be changed later on. And "it is not his job to assure her rights" - again sounds very cold. I know it is up to her parents but if he (husband) truly thinks this way then I'd say there is going to be one difficult marriage - FOR HER. She is his wife and he is supposed to take care of her, and that means in every way. He should be interested in her rights. If not, what kind of marriage is that?
If you think like what you described no wonder women in Islam are not well off. Most of the women in Egypt have no special conditions in their marriage contract so does that mean they can be treated however their husbands want??? We all are humans and have feelings therefore marriage cannot be 100% business deal, not even 90%.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Everyone seems to be forgeting that these two people are BOTH very young so they are no doubt BOTH finding their way in marriage. Its no different be they muslim, christian or whatever. Most marriages are a bit stormy in the first year as each partner establishes what they are and are not willing to put up with. All this talk about their whole life being laid out in the marriage contract is stupid.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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No, it's not stupid, it's a CONTRACT. As with any contract, if someone is so STUPID that they don't think a CONTRACT through, getting shafted in the end is their own fault.
Whether this new wife put anything in her CONTRACT is irrelevant because it's clear she didn't think this through anyway.
She AGREED to go to Egypt and sit in a flat until her husband chose to let her out. If she didn't want to do that, she could have put that in writing, they could have both signed it, and that would be the end of it. But she didn't because she WANTED this life.
As much as Ahmad makes me curl my lip, HE pointed out something that nobody else even caught, or bothered to comment on. He said (in summary) Egypt's culture is CHRISTIAN because it was Christian before it was Muslim. That CHRISTIAN culture says women are subject to the will and the whims of their husbands. Sure, she agreed to an Islamic marriage because she HAD to, but she did not NOT agree to an Egyptian marriage. She SHOULD have articulated her personal application of the RIGHTS Islam gave her in her marriage contract. She SHOULD have stripped the Christian culture from her marriage and she didn't do it. She was STUPID.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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No, it's not stupid, it's a CONTRACT. As with any contract, if someone is so STUPID that they don't think a CONTRACT through, getting shafted in the end is their own fault.
Whether this new wife put anything in her CONTRACT is irrelevant because it's clear she didn't think this through anyway.
She AGREED to go to Egypt and sit in a flat until her husband chose to let her out. If she didn't want to do that, she could have put that in writing, they could have both signed it, and that would be the end of it. But she didn't because she WANTED this life.
As much as Ahmad makes me curl my lip, HE pointed out something that nobody else even caught, or bothered to comment on. He said (in summary) Egypt's culture is CHRISTIAN because it was Christian before it was Muslim. That CHRISTIAN culture says women are subject to the will and the whims of their husbands. Sure, she agreed to an Islamic marriage because she HAD to, but she did not NOT agree to an Egyptian marriage. She SHOULD have articulated her personal application of the RIGHTS Islam gave her in her marriage contract. She SHOULD have stripped the Christian culture from her marriage and she didn't do it. She was STUPID.
but when u get married u never assume things like this will happen. if she is a western woman she doesnt have to do as he says unless she likes being told what to do right?girls if my man tried that on me i would dead bolt the door let him see how it feels not to be able to get in..i am so spiteful
Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Girls, you forget here that the girl is just 18. This relationship is perhaps her first real one in her life and truly would anyone of you have known what a marriage contract is and what belongs in there and what not at this age??
Again Roqayya needs to voice her requests to her husband and MIL and have to make sure that they are getting heard. As I said earlier if it's recommended she should attempt to leave the building with a female family member or neighbor for the first times until she's more comfortable. But keeping her locked away like a small puppy will only stress the marriage even more.
Then again her now husband showed already more than controlling behavior before they married so it was not difficult to imagine of what would happen next.
This girl needs to help herself cause no one else will do it for her. If she has enough she needs to leave misery behind and leave. She got the option - hopefully she'll make use of it soon.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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she knows her way around better than we egyptians do, she's learnt all our con tricks the hard way. 
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