posted
Hi everyone! Can someone please tell me for sure, or let me have the address of a good web page that explains a few points on Orfi "marriage" which I can't seem to get clear. I am not involved in one, but am considering it. I am not Muslim. I know what this type of contract is mainly used for, that it gives no privileges and that it has little value, and none outside of Egypt. I also know that it is not always well looked upon but quite frecuent. I won't go into the details of why I'm considering it (not in this mail) or whether or not it is ethical or advisable. We all have different views on what is right and different reasons for doing things. I have read all kinds of opinions on whether or not this requires a divorce, if I have no plans to have a "proper" marriage. What I want to know is whether I have any obligations. I've read that there may be problems if I was seen in Egypt with a different man even if I have married him legally in my country. This is very unlikely as I do NOT want to marry and although I do not want a "proper" marriage with the man I am considering having Orfi "marriage" with, I am serious about him. But I'm also realistic and know how things can change and go wrong. I also assume that it has no value if he comes to my country. I've heard of there being one copy, two, three... stamped, not stamped, with witnesses, with just a lawyer, in arabic, in my own language, in both... I'm confused! If there is one copy and it is destroyed, is this enough to end the contract? What about if there is more than one? Is it at all possible it can be made without me actually being present, for example with a copy of my passport? I hope I can get some help, and maybe later on a more personal question, but please, no arguments on my account. "Live and let live" Best wishes to all.
Posts: 17 | From: Málaga, Spain | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
No obligations for both parties at all, it's not a legally recognized paper so don't worry. Usually this "contract" is just used if you want to live with your boyfriend together in one place either appartment or hotel (mind you not every hotel is accepting it). I never used one (and franky at this point I didn't even know that something like this exists) and I am sure that this urfi contract only comes in Arabic language (but your boyfriend can translate it to you). I moved right in with my ex and his mom. Then again, this family was not at all the "typical" Egyptian family. Anyway, good luck with your relationship and the man you are involved with. Spend some time in his country and get to know his cultural background more. Enjoy Egypt! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Thanks for that... I've heard so many different things... We've been "together" for just over a year, this is my third time in Egypt, and I LOVE IT!!!
Posts: 17 | From: Málaga, Spain | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Hi, I am sure other people - who went through an urfi marriage themselves - can give you more information about this subject. And if you have been already three times to Egypt than this relationship must be MORE serious . All the best.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Hi There, I had orfi, we did not know much about it except it was like a contract between man and woman allowing us to be together. From the moment we had the orfi we considered ourselves man and wife. I only had a trip of 2 weeks and could not arrange all I wanted to in that time. Agreed it is not worth the paper it is written on but sentimentally we recognise this as our real wedding date. We then got married in the Uk in the registry office a few months later. BUT the date engraved on our rings is the date of the orfi!! not the UK legal one. Maybe we are just sentimental? but this was when we 'really married'. If only some of the poster here who spread doom and gloom over mixed marriages could see us together. We completely adore, repect and love each other. Sounds 'cheesy' but I have found my soulmate and the man of my dreams......... Good luck to you in what ever you decide. Contrary to what most people here say if you meet the right person you can make it work!! Posts: 1500 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Just to add to what is said above providing your partner agrees you can have just one copy and keep it yourself. I have only ever seen the contract in arabic. If you have just one copy then you can be the one to retain contol of the situation and tear it up whenever you wish. There are no legal ramifications in any other country as the marriage will not be recognised anywhere but Egypt. Even then in Egypt you have no legal rights just the right to be together. There is no need for stamping the contract unless you want this to happen so that the marriage is registered.
Lawyers are very agreeable to make the contract however you want so long as they get their fee which should be no more than LE 200 and most pay LE 100.
Hope this helps.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
why do you have to have a orfi paper to be seen together with Egyptian man?? I dont get it. Is it illegal to walk down street alone with egyptian man?? Is it illegal to go somewhere alone with them like into a motel room. How do they know what your intentions are?? Are they gonna bust down the door and ask you where your orfi paper is?? What if your alone with an egyptian man, and you dont have one, what happens??????? do you go to jail or something. Just asking. Im going to Egypt next month, I have no intentions with any Egyptian man but I will be around them. Explain the need and consequences to me. Thanks
Posts: 96 | From: usa | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I think it's illegal in Egypt for an unmarried man and woman to get a hotel room together. To my knowledge, foreigners aren't held to this, but Egyptians are. And if one person in the relationship is Egyptian, that person generally gets hassled at least, if not banned from the hotel.
So orfi allows a couple to sidestep those problems, that's all.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: There are no legal ramifications in any other country as the marriage will not be recognised anywhere but Egypt.
There was actually a British woman on here a while ago who had an orfi marrriage while she was going through a divorce in the UK. The husband found out about it and it created real problems with her divorce, and I think she ended up loosing a great deal financially because of it. The argument was that if it was accepted as a marriage by local law for any purpose and she entered it willingly, then she had knowingly committed bigamy. She even had statements from here to show that it wasn't a proper marriage, but that was not accepted by the court!!
It might not be recognized to give the orfi husband legal rights in the another country, but can mess with a divorce.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
This story is insane, I just can't believe it. I mean the paper is in Arabic language, did the husband indeed find the urfi contract, got it translated and presented to the judge? After all the urfi contract is done inside a lawyer office but is not recognized by any Egyptian authorities, so it's not a recognized marriage, it's nothing.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Yeah, and in that case the husband really ruled his wife!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Divorce can get pretty nasty sometimes Tigerlily!
Yes I do remember that lady and I think this was a very exceptional case if even true. I did wonder at the time how true it was as financial settlements on divorce in the UK are based on financial need and not on who did what or who is to blame for the breakdown of the marriage.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
If your orfi marriage is registered at the court then you are married under Egyptian law and require a divorce to be free of it. If the only copy of the contract is in your hands then this can not happen but if your Egyptian partner has a copy he can take this to the court at any time and get it registered. Once registerd it can be reissued by the court at any time.
If your Orfi marriage is publically declared, in front of two witnesses, a dowery aid and entered into for life it is an Islamically recognised marriage.
I remember that lady whose Orfi marriage was recognised in the UK and this caused her immense problems. they took the line that a marriage recognised in Egypt should be recognised in the UK. The British embassy website also states that it can not rule on the validity of marriage and this has to be decided by the courts in an individual case.
I would not enter into this contract unless you propose to be committed to it. Thinking that it doesn't really count could lead you into all sorts of unexpected problems. You only need it if you are alone with an Egyptian man. When I was making my mind up about my husband, whether to marry him or not we were never alone. We never got any police hassle because we didn't share a room before marriage. We always had my daughter with us and generally a few other friends as well. Respect yourself and let him show resect to you. Wait until you are ready to commit before you want to be alone together.
As in all things it is wise to get advice from a lawyer.
Caveat emporium Let the buyer beware
Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
It is actually true, I had many problems though it an did lose everything. It also happened to another lady I know. In my case, I was a total fool and naive, my landlord insisted on us having this contract which I was worried about. I had only lived in Egypt 4 months and in that time had lived in a hotel, when I moved to my own flat the landlord said the person would not be allowed in without this contract. I explained about my divorce and said there was a lot of money involved and I just could not risk it, he told me the contract meant absolutely nothing and I did not even have to be there to do it or sign anything. After a few months this person tried to rule my life and there was no way I was allowing that so I told him to stay away from me.
My husband had been to Egypt to try and persuade me to go back to him and actually met the idiot I had stupidly got involved with. Out of total spite and greed he phoned my husband in the U.K. and said he would provide anything he needed so that he would win the divorce as long as he was paid £20,000.00. My husband agreed to pay the sum if the information was useful, so the idiot went to the court and had the contract stamped without my knowledge and faxed it to England, even the stamp from the court was dated the day before he faxed it. My husbands solicitor sent a Avit Davit (not sure of the spelling) and the idiot signed it in the lawyers in Egypt.
My husband had all the contract translated and it stated that I attended the court for marraige which I did not. When I arrived at my solicitors she presented me with it, I explained all but I knew she did not believe me, I suppose if you have never lived in Egypt it is hard to believe, but I was telling the truth. We went to court the next day and they informed me that considering I was married in Egypt that my husband there could support me and that my English husand was no longer responsible for me. I explained about the contract but the court said even though it was not legal in England they respected the Egyptian Law and therefore in their eyes I was married in Egypt and afterall the translated contract said I had attended even though there was no signature.
I came back to Egypt and went to a lawyer and had a contract drawn up between Elizabeth Taylor and Omar Sheriff and sent it to my solicitor stamped from the court in Egypt saying this how legal these contracts are. It was presented in court the next time I went, but they chose to ignore it and I still lost. The idiot here also lost as my husband paid him nothing I am glad to say.
Looking back now, I know my solicitor was useless, and I was stupid, instead of making a contract between Elizabeth Taylor and Omar Sheriff, I should have made one between my husband and a ficticious Egyptian Lady and dated the marraige for the dates my husband had been in Egypt.
Funnily enough, my husband decided to pay me monthly volantarily which he did until I married again four years ago, but I still lost a very large amount of money.
The other lady I know that also had this happen to her lost everything. So it is not as meaningless as people think.
Posts: 88 | From: egypt | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Divorce can get pretty nasty sometimes Tigerlily!
Yes I do remember that lady and I think this was a very exceptional case if even true. I did wonder at the time how true it was as financial settlements on divorce in the UK are based on financial need and not on who did what or who is to blame for the breakdown of the marriage.
Here in Minnesota no matter what happens financial assets are split down the middle
Unless one of the party is overwhelmingly responsible for the breakdown in the marriage. hence, adultry.
Plus if this woman took assets out of the couple's combined assets before mediation could settle on who gets what there is a massive penalty involved.
Basically its considered swindle and it goes both ways.
I wonder since American law is based off of English common law in these matters if it is similar.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by redsea: It is actually true, I had many problems though it an did lose everything. It also happened to another lady I know. In my case, I was a total fool and naive, my landlord insisted on us having this contract which I was worried about. I had only lived in Egypt 4 months and in that time had lived in a hotel, when I moved to my own flat the landlord said the person would not be allowed in without this contract. I explained about my divorce and said there was a lot of money involved and I just could not risk it, he told me the contract meant absolutely nothing and I did not even have to be there to do it or sign anything. After a few months this person tried to rule my life and there was no way I was allowing that so I told him to stay away from me.
My husband had been to Egypt to try and persuade me to go back to him and actually met the idiot I had stupidly got involved with. Out of total spite and greed he phoned my husband in the U.K. and said he would provide anything he needed so that he would win the divorce as long as he was paid £20,000.00. My husband agreed to pay the sum if the information was useful, so the idiot went to the court and had the contract stamped without my knowledge and faxed it to England, even the stamp from the court was dated the day before he faxed it. My husbands solicitor sent a Avit Davit (not sure of the spelling) and the idiot signed it in the lawyers in Egypt.
My husband had all the contract translated and it stated that I attended the court for marraige which I did not. When I arrived at my solicitors she presented me with it, I explained all but I knew she did not believe me, I suppose if you have never lived in Egypt it is hard to believe, but I was telling the truth. We went to court the next day and they informed me that considering I was married in Egypt that my husband there could support me and that my English husand was no longer responsible for me. I explained about the contract but the court said even though it was not legal in England they respected the Egyptian Law and therefore in their eyes I was married in Egypt and afterall the translated contract said I had attended even though there was no signature.
I came back to Egypt and went to a lawyer and had a contract drawn up between Elizabeth Taylor and Omar Sheriff and sent it to my solicitor stamped from the court in Egypt saying this how legal these contracts are. It was presented in court the next time I went, but they chose to ignore it and I still lost. The idiot here also lost as my husband paid him nothing I am glad to say.
Looking back now, I know my solicitor was useless, and I was stupid, instead of making a contract between Elizabeth Taylor and Omar Sheriff, I should have made one between my husband and a ficticious Egyptian Lady and dated the marraige for the dates my husband had been in Egypt.
Funnily enough, my husband decided to pay me monthly volantarily which he did until I married again four years ago, but I still lost a very large amount of money.
The other lady I know that also had this happen to her lost everything. So it is not as meaningless as people think.
Thats really scary and slimy thing to do.
But I wonder if a man has a mistress in UK or USA or whatever would this be held against him in the same manner?
I doubt it, its probably more of the gender discrimination thing than any other motivation.
Really disguisting.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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