posted
I really try to do my best to respect the cultural differences between marriage practices in the States and in Egypt. However, right now, I am pissed..... really pissed.
My fiance's family has known me for more than a year. They know I am an independent woman, and that I make decisions for myself. So someone please explain to me WHY, after being specifically told not to, my fiance's father chose to E-MAIL MY FATHER ASKING PERMISSION FOR MY MARRIAGE!!!!!
I mean WTF?
The families have both met and both were happy about the engagement. Everyone is psyched for the wedding party this summer. So why did he feel the need to take it upon himself (without asking me) to check with my father to see if I can sign the contract in advance.
It's not like I'm some student here on a tourist trip. I am an adult who works and has lived on her own for years. I understand this is a cultural thing, but shouldn't he respect my culture as well?
Is there a diplomatic way for me to tell him to mind his own damn business, or at least ASK ME for my permission on decisions that affect ME.
but if i were you, id take it as a compliment- in all honesty. they're treating you with the respect they would treat an egyptian girl with. its not a matter of you not being independent enough from your parents- it is a matter of culture (As you pointed out) and im sure you know how important family ties are in the egyptian culture.
i think its kinda cute. but i agree, its weird.
as for there being a diplomatic way of handling this and future situations...uh...not so much. I think the only way would to be through your fiance- he can hint at it to his parents, but for to straight up tell the FIL to his face would be considered pretty disrespectful and crossing the line.
with in laws, its best to try to keep everything civil and as unpersonal as possible- i say- in every culture. For example, i think my SIL sucks, but i keep it from being a problem by keeping my mouth shut even when she annoys me, and by not hanging out/seeing her too often. just enough to keep it friendly.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:I think he even believes that you would be offended if he didn't ask for your parents' blessings.
Quoted for truth. Even though it upset you, you might want to thank him for respecting you in his own understanding Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ivy1111: So why did he feel the need to take it upon himself (without asking me) to check with my father to see if I can sign the contract in advance.
This what's sounds strange to me. Don't sign anything in advance, have a say in the marriage contract, get recommendation on what to include in it in favor of your own interests, be demanding on specific points, don't rush to sign anything, take your time or as the Egyptians say showwaya showwaya.....
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Thanks for the feedback.... Sleep and a LOOOONG talk with my fiance have cooled me down significantly. He's going to broach the subject with his father at a better time, and begged me not to say anything. Thanks Hibbah and MK for the perspective. I suppose I do need to start preparing my complexion for the big weddings this summer. (Egypt and US)
We're still working through the contract drama....
Posts: 38 | From: Dokki, Cairo | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I would actually be more worried if he hadn't done it. the family are treating you like they would treat an Egyptian women, this is a compliment. You need to learn to live with these things.
There is no concept of an independent woman in Egypt and actually there is no concept of an independent man. Every one does things with the agreement and involvement of their families, better get used to it.
-------------------- Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Just ask your father to explain to your future father-in-law gently that you make your own decisions and that is how women are brought up in your culture and he should refer back to you.
Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I go with Citizen here. Let your dad tell his dad that he feels honoured and respected but where he comes from children make up their own mind and he should feel free to have his son adress the issue of marrying to you directly. When necessary you would consult your dad as in 'advice'. And there is no problem in bonding between parents of the bride and groom. This should not be adressed like your dad will have nothing to do with it, that would be cold. He can share the joy over the upcoming wedding, children that are taking off for a future together, surrounded by family that will be there when needed. If you can abide with it this way.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
In fact I asked my parents when I introduced them to my dh at my birthdayparty their opinion on him as I had plans with him. After all, they don't pick my spouse but he needs to be welcome and accepted in my family as well for the both of us to be happy. I'd better know upfront if there is something to be sorted out. Dh did ask my dad if he was conscenting to him marrying me. Of course my dad was redirecting this decision to the both of us but he also made it clear that he would be there for us and he is as is my mother.
posted
I bet that you own Father will be more reassured and comforted by this gesture than you can imagine. Step back and take yourself out of the equation, it is a compact that these two men are making that the kids they raised will be dutiful and good to one another. I wouldn't discourage either one of them from communicating, and discussing any topic they wish,. ESPECIALLY the topic of the kids they both love so dearly. Your Dad doesn't need to set the inlaw straight on how independant you are, he just has to say "I agree, and thank you".
It doesn't make you look so independant when you get all wrapped around the axle about people being loving towards you. It makes you look insecure and controlling. Relax and anjoy the fact that there are two adult men who have an interest in your future happiness, and that your fiancee's Father believes in the relationship so strongly that he wants your own Dad to know he stands behind his son. You are obviously treasured by all three men involved, sit back in that steam bath for a bit, and relish the savory flavor.
It isn't like he is calling your dad to say you are a tramp. You say he should respect your culture... erm what culture dictates that nobody gets to act without your permission? They are good loving guys, and you are BLESSED to have all of them in your life. The independant adult woman in you should appreciate the extra cushioning of a strong family block. The call is between the two men, not between them and you and your fiancee, its between two parents. Leave it for them.
Posts: 1071 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I appreciate all the constructive feedback. I spoke to my father, who had already responded to the e-mail in a polite way saying he was happy for us and excited about the contract, full confidence in the fiance and his fam etc... etc.... Actually, he wasn't particularly "honored" by the whole thing, he thought it was some sort of legal requirement for the contract signing, and had assumed that I would have been consulted on such an e-mail out of courtesy. I explained to him that my FIL sent the e-mail as a courtesy, but encouraged my father to, in future discourse, point out that I am the party responsible for the decisions that affect me. He agreed this would be best, and offered to write another e-mail to this effect, but I told him not to. My fiance spoke to his father and pointed out that, although the gesture was nice, the fact that he went forward with it despite both my fiance's and my perspectives on the matter was not appreciated by either of us. We affirmed to him, however, that we appreciated the gesture. I can appreciate those who commented that this is the culture and I should be grateful I have a FIL who respects me and cares. I do. However, I want no delusions in his mind, or any of the rest of my fiance's wonderful family, regarding how I live my life and make my decisions. I respect the culture, however, I reserve the right to be myself, and I expect to have my wishes respected in return.
quote:Originally posted by akshar: There is no concept of an independent woman in Egypt and actually there is no concept of an independent man. Every one does things with the agreement and involvement of their families, better get used to it.
Maybe so, but just as I accept my fiance and his family they way they are and love them as such, I expect the same. I don't want to set a precedent that there is another "authority" to check with on decisions pertaining to me. I am not Egyptian, and they know that. My fiance is not American, and I know that. I respect that his family plays a magor role in the decisions in his life. I feel that it is fair to be accpeted the way I am as well.
Regarding Cosmogirl's comments: Obviously my father and FIL can communicate freely, and I do encourage them to do so. The problem is that there was a communication asking for permission from someone else for a decision about my life I had already approved. My father was already aware and comfortable about the situation. My FIL knew this was not what my fiance and I wanted, yet did it anyway. Yes, he did it with his heart in the right place. However, I do not feel it makes me "insecure and controlling" to expect that "permission" for my marriage should be asked of me, not my father. I hope you will forgive me for being temporarily upset that my permission apparently wasn't good enough for him.
Anyway, the situation has been resolved, and a strategy developed and discussed by all parties involved to deal with future issues of this nature. Thank you to those who informed me in a constructive way about the significance of such an act, other ways of viewing it, and strategies to help in such situations.
Posts: 38 | From: Dokki, Cairo | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Is your fiance a Muslim? If he is then it IS an Islamic requirement for the bride's guardian or "wali" (usually her father or brother) to approve of the marriage. If the guardian does not approve there can be no marriage. This is done for the protection of the woman.
My husband also called my father before we were married and made sure that we had his permission before we went ahead with anything. I had absolutely no problem with this and actually found it rather touching.
If you are having an Islamic marriage contract you will be having your guardian sign the contract as well. In my case as my father is not Muslim the guardian was the imam who presided over the ceremony.
Posts: 15 | From: UAE | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by akshar: There is no concept of an independent woman in Egypt and actually there is no concept of an independent man. Every one does things with the agreement and involvement of their families, better get used to it.
You're an independent woman, Akshar, and you made all your decisions without the involvement of your family, didn't you?
Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
you're marrying someone of a different culture, welcome to all of the cute little extra things that come with it, just sit back and wait IT GETS MUCH BETTER! muahhahaha! lol no but seriously, take advice, it was done out of respect and no malice was intended...intention is the most important thing here. if this upsets you before you get married, might want to rethink the marriage...just wait until the in laws get all up in your business, 24/7, try to tell you how to do EVERYTHING, tell you how over eating will keep you strong (lol) or your husbands' sisters try to make you feel you aren't doing enough for hubby....not to mention the parents who (albeit are kind) will pester you for everything small thing. planning to live in egypt or elsewhere? Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Ok, my husband lost his Father 4 years ago, and his Mother in Dec of 05. My Dad lives in Iraq and oh how I WISH that his Dad was alive so that the two of them could have a chat. The two Dads are alot alike and we laugh imagining family dive vactions in the Red Sea (which my dad started when he lived in Saudi) because Egypt and Saudi are RIGHT THERE!. Then at the end of the day we realize we are lving in "what if.." They are gone, and my family loves him like a son, but if just for one day, his Father could come back and say just 5 words to my Father, it would mean everything. Now we are starting a family and his Dad will never know.
So, I am displacing some envy into critque above. sorry about that.
Posts: 1071 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Ivy, if I may say so, I think you have an excellent attitude. Would that more people around here, particularly women, did. I hear and read so much of this defeatist attitude stuff, "Oh, its his culture, if you don't like it you shouldn't be together. And the family is going to hate you and the family is THE most important thing for this kind of man, so it definitely will not work between you." I think its such a load of crap, lumping all the Egy men into one mold, as though they are all backwards tribesmen. Its a pretty good way to keep funky attitudes thriving. I do feel as though my hubby has to "get me" as much as I "get him." But its rarely an issue, only so much as it would be for any couple. Good luck with your wedding!
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by akshar: There is no concept of an independent woman in Egypt and actually there is no concept of an independent man. Every one does things with the agreement and involvement of their families, better get used to it.
You're an independent woman, Akshar, and you made all your decisions without the involvement of your family, didn't you?
No I discussed my marriage with my father a month before the event. My husband did not ask my father permission but that was only because I told him that my father was happy with it. My late husband did ask my father permission, so I was already aware it was an Arab thing. I had no problem with it, I thought it was sweet. My father appreciated the respect it showed.
I certainly discussed it with my daughter. I certainly would not have dreamed of going ahead with out her agreeing. In fact I discussed it with loads of people, especially Arab friends of my late husband.
Yes it was my decision but taken with the approval of my immediate family.
Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
There's a difference between discussing things with your family and the family being involved in the deciion making - that was my point.
As foreign women, we do make our own decisions, hopefully with family discussion and approval, but often not. For Egyptian women, the norm is that the family are intimately involved in financial discussions, vetting family background etc. and if necessary preventing the marriage.
Ivy, as a foreigner, will not be going through what an Egyptian woman goes through as she prepares for marriage.
Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I have to say... this has been a very beneficial and enlightening discussion for me. Those who pointed out that I should be honored and feel cherished by the concern exhibited for me by all parties involved were quite right. Being in a relationship with a Muslim Egyptian man, and all the familial connections implied, is always going to require me to take a step back from situations that might otherwise upset me, clear my head, and think about the perspective of the other parties. I imagine it is the same in any marriage. Cosmogirl, you are right that I am very fortunate to have both of my "fathers" in my life, period. Thanks for reminding me of that blessing. Shylady, thank you for your post. I didn't realize it was a requirement for the bride's guardian to approve. Had I been aware of that dimension ahead of time, I would have been a lot more comfortable with the whole communication. One of the most important aspect of my realtionship with my new husband (fiance at the beginning of this thread;) is respect of each other's religions. I suppose this was a requirement about which my fiance chose not to inform me since he knew how I felt in advance about the whole "permission" thing. He is sweet like that. Thanks to all of you for your feedback:)
Posts: 38 | From: Dokki, Cairo | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ivy1111: I have to say... this has been a very beneficial and enlightening discussion for me. Those who pointed out that I should be honored and feel cherished by the concern exhibited for me by all parties involved were quite right. Being in a relationship with a Muslim Egyptian man, and all the familial connections implied, is always going to require me to take a step back from situations that might otherwise upset me, clear my head, and think about the perspective of the other parties. I imagine it is the same in any marriage.
I agree, in your head you have all kinds of assumptions from years of conditioning by your culture. When ever something annoys you, you do have to step back and think. Did they have any idea that this would annoy me, could I even begin to explian why it does. If it is no to both questions you have to let it go.
quote:One of the most important aspect of my realtionship with my new husband (fiance at the beginning of this thread;) is respect of each other's religions. I suppose this was a requirement about which my fiance chose not to inform me since he knew how I felt in advance about the whole "permission" thing. He is sweet like that. Thanks to all of you for your feedback:)
Husband!!!!!!
I thouhgt you were going to have a big wedding in the summer, does this mean congratualtions are in order, if so Mabrouk
Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Marriage is complete.... wedding in June. Nothing really changed, just that my ring changed hands. We still live apart, etc..... we see this as the first stage of a weaning process for his mother:)
Posts: 38 | From: Dokki, Cairo | Registered: Nov 2006
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cultural differences tell a lot. it is hard to get used to it at first, but when u get used to that, u willl start ignoring such things..
i can say i am sure he will come up with such small surprises again, but not as a disrespect to you, but as a normal thing for his mentality !!!
but overall, it sounded so oooo cute of him to do that.. really...
coz that showes that he cares for u, cares for ur family.
and that also shows that he thinks "we didn't find this girl in the street, she has a family, and we have to be in contact and updating contacts with them"
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muahhahaha! lol
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