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The word Maat is pronounced "may; maay; may_eye; emhee; p_may" and we know this from the Coptic words "me; mee; meei; mhi; and pme." All of these words mean the same thing - truth, justice, true person. Exactly what was this concept that formed the basis of the Kememu's ideology? Westerners simply don't have a clue, just scan the web for their rote and static interpretations. I do not include any of that nonsense here, instead;
African views on the essence of Maat - an African ideology
quote: "The necessity to translate Maat as cosmic order, truth, justice, righteousness, harmony, balance and reciprocity in the English language profoundly reflects the fragmentary mess we find ourselves in. All the categories that we must use to approximate this concept was for the Kemites one word." The Kemites were able to perceive and express multi-layered and diverse aspects without an urge for separation. So rather than try to describe Maat via the interpretations of a foreign culture, Beatty goes to the source and presents his own African centered interpretations of Kemetic symbolic expressions of Maat. His ability to read the Kemetic language allows him to do this.
Beatty elaborates on the meanings of symbols in the various expressions of Maat - symbols such as the sickle-shaped end of the sacred boat, the forearm, the loaf of bread, the egg, the feather and the tied papyrus. Of particular interest is the symbol that has been interpreted at times as a pedestal, as a platform and as a primeval mound. After presenting the thoughts of a number of scholars, Beatty presents his own. His thoughts capture the unified nature of the spiritual and material realms. He says "Maat, then, could refer to the orderly process of creation and the primeval hill - a visible object that is at once its solid self and a manifestation of a preexisting cosmic and spiritual order."
In the section "Maat: The Problematic of Framework and Interpretation" Beatty surveys views from a number of scholars on the essence of Maat. The striking contrast between the tone of the Western scholars and African scholars illustrates the significance of intellectual allegiance. Western scholars such as Jan Assmann, Samual A. B. Mercer, John A. Wilson and John Baines characterize Maat as a social/state institution for maintaining order/control. Conversely, African scholars characterize Maat as a divine ubiquitous quality of the universe. In this section, Beatty analyzes the viewpoints of Karenga, Obenga, Carruthers and Asante.
Karenga draws a system of ethics from Maat. He defines virtues as "excellences of human character which sustain practices which enable persons to achieve various desirable goods, but who also sustains them in their quest for good."
"Obenga discusses Maat in the context of 'spheres of reality' (the sacred, the cosmos, the society, and man) with 'five dimensions of significance' (religious, cosmic, political, social, and anthropological)." "Maat includes the sum total of experience, knowledge and activity, including such areas as all of the sciences, theology (the Sacred), cosmology (the Cosmos), political science (the State), sociology (the Society), and anthropology (human beings)."
Carruthers says that "Maat is the principle of balance in the universe, whether that balance refers to weights and measurements in the market, law in the courts, judgment of the heart of the dead, or the universal cosmological patterns."
Asante "takes five Kemetic terms and attempts to apply them metaphorically to African life and culture for the purpose of illuminating a 'Maatic response to injustice and disorder in the world.'" The five terms are tep (beginning), pet (extensions), heb (festival), sen (circle) amd meh (crowning glory).
Common to the theoretical discourses of the African scholars is the practical message that doing and speaking Maat is fundamental to the process of restoring our culture. Beatty's expression of this message is "Knowledge of African history and culture is essential in the process of reflecting upon the nature and purpose of our lives and how to conduct them in the best interests of African people." "Maat is a concept that is fundamental in understanding the Kemetic (ancient Egyptian) and hence African world view."
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Wally, there existed an Indo-European version of Maat called Rita. This concept was even manifested as a god and remains today in the Zoroastrian religion of Persia and in Hinduism of India.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Wally, there existed an Indo-European version of Maat called Rita. This concept was even manifested as a god and remains today in the Zoroastrian religion of Persia and in Hinduism of India.
This is interesting. I have read - sometime ago - on Zorastrianism and Hinduism, but I've forgotten most of it . But the Kememu Maat was a goddess (a maternal trait) and these northern versions, it's a god (a paternal one). Do you know the attributes of this god in comparison to those of the goddess Maat?
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posted
^^It is pretty much the exact same-- order, truth, justice, rightousness, the perfect ideal etc. except just manifested as a celestial male.
Rita was often said to be a son of the supreme deity, just as Maat was the daughter of Ra.
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quote: What are the Fundamental Values of our culture?
The first value which underlies our culture is the faith in the supremacy of the Moral and Spiritual Order. The Vedic sages called it Rita, later it was called Dharma. Age after age, refinements were made in the concept, but essentially the faith has persisted in our people.
Rita is the universal order, material, moral and spiritual, which unfolds life. Satya or truth is its personal aspect. To live up to it through knowledge, devotion and action, becomes a paramount demand on the sensitive individual who finds fulfilment by living up to it.
Satya in the sense of absolute sincerity, unity of thought, word and deed, is not to be cultivated in a cave or in a place of pilgrimage. It has to be lived in every action, in every relationship and on every occassion.
The other value is dedication, surrender of the ego to God (Samyama). By living a dedicated life, the individual recaptures the values for his own generation and passes them on as a legacy to the next one.
The third great value is the consecration of life (Samarpana). Rigid asceticism is not consecration. Giving up life to find personal salvation is not consecration. In order to realise consecration, we must live a full life in which every act comes to be consecrated as an offering to God.
In order to live up to these values in individual and collective life, desire, greed, malice and anger have to be transmitted into noble aspirations.
Our religious tolerance and love of peace have been the legacies of these values, upheld generation after generation.
Indian culture will live so long as they continue to inspire the life of the dominant minority.
as I've stated previously there's a remarkable similarity in Oriental (African, East Asian, AmerIndian...) cultures; the Indo-Europeans or Aryans being the adapters of this thought system in East Asia...
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Where is the evidence that Indo-Europeans adapted this concept from East Asians instead of creating it themselves??..
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posted
Simple; you don't create something which has already been in existance for thousands of years (in Kemet) prior to the same concepts being expressed by the Indo-Europeans. It's the same thing as saying that the Greeks invented something that had already existed in Kemet centuries before there was a Greece; or Columbus discovering America...
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Well the problem with comparing Egyptian cosmology to Indian and Persian cosmologies is that many interperet the Hinduism and Zoasrianism as being more mystical, transcending nature in the present type cosmologies whereas the Egyptian cosmology was more centered around death and the afterlife. This is a problem akin to what you referred to in the first post on this thread. What we understand about Egyptian cosmology is mostly WESTERN interperetations of a "dead" system of thought, whereas Zoastrianism and Hinduism are very much alive and well and able to transmit the true meaning of their teachings unencumbered by Western distortion.
If you study Egyptian hieroglyphs, you will see that there is MUCH transcendance in Egyptian thought. Many of the passages of cosmological significance have a capability to transmit transcendent ideas WITHOUT translation. Unfortunately, many of these images and passages are either decaying or only displayed haphazardly as photos in books, quite out of context. Even with these fragments, however, you will see that there is MUCH transcendent, "super" natural thought in Egyptian cosmology. But to see it, not only do you need to discard Western conceptions of Egyptian thought, but you must reconstruct the full experience of the Egyptian system of temples and heiroglyphic script. Only by seeing these symbols in the original context within which they were created can one really UNDERSTAND the transcendent power that is held. But that is only half of the story.
The other half is the fact that for EVERY diety in the Egyptian system, there are writings or parables that flesh out the TRUE meaning and power of the Neter in principle. ONly by collecting, reading and understanding all of these works can one understand the TRUE transcendant principles of Neter. Unfortunately, what we often get today is only bits an pieces of random texts, but just like the images I mentioned earlier, even those fragments hold great power......
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well the problem with comparing Egyptian cosmology to Indian and Persian cosmologies is that many interperet the Hinduism and Zoasrianism as being more mystical, transcending nature in the present type cosmologies whereas the Egyptian cosmology was more centered around death and the afterlife. This is a problem akin to what you referred to in the first post on this thread. What we understand about Egyptian cosmology is mostly WESTERN interperetations of a "dead" system of thought, whereas Zoastrianism and Hinduism are very much alive and well and able to transmit the true meaning of their teachings unencumbered by Western distortion.
If you study Egyptian hieroglyphs, you will see that there is MUCH transcendance in Egyptian thought. Many of the passages of cosmological significance have a capability to transmit transcendent ideas WITHOUT translation. Unfortunately, many of these images and passages are either decaying or only displayed haphazardly as photos in books, quite out of context. Even with these fragments, however, you will see that there is MUCH transcendent, "super" natural thought in Egyptian cosmology. But to see it, not only do you need to discard Western conceptions of Egyptian thought, but you must reconstruct the full experience of the Egyptian system of temples and heiroglyphic script. Only by seeing these symbols in the original context within which they were created can one really UNDERSTAND the transcendent power that is held. But that is only half of the story.
The other half is the fact that for EVERY diety in the Egyptian system, there are writings or parables that flesh out the TRUE meaning and power of the Neter in principle. ONly by collecting, reading and understanding all of these works can one understand the TRUE transcendant principles of Neter. Unfortunately, what we often get today is only bits an pieces of random texts, but just like the images I mentioned earlier, even those fragments hold great power......
I agree, it's a common misconception in Western academics. The AE weren't obsessed with death, they saw death as an extension of life...but not neccessarile the end of it.
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I agree, it's a common misconception in Western academics. The AE weren't obsessed with death, they saw death as an extension of life...but not neccessarile the end of it. [/QB]
Do you know how exactly right you are? You have nailed it! The text is more accurately titled The Book of the Great Awakening. There's a lot of work to be done in correcting all of these Western distortions of African history and culture...
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posted
Wally and Doug, the problem is that you guys are trying to tackle stuff that is way over your head. A specialist in the field would have trouble with that kind of research. You remind me of a group of southern rednecks. You come up with something that sounds good and here we go.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Wally and Doug, the problem is that you guys are trying to tackle stuff that is way over your head. A specialist in the field would have trouble with that kind of research. You remind me of a group of southern rednecks. You come up with something that sounds good and here we go.
And I don't suppose that YOU are included among this group of 'rednecks'. LOL
YOU come up with something like African caucasians and because it sounds good to YOU, you just go with it! Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: Simple; you don't create something which has already been in existance for thousands of years (in Kemet) prior to the same concepts being expressed by the Indo-Europeans. It's the same thing as saying that the Greeks invented something that had already existed in Kemet centuries before there was a Greece; or Columbus discovering America...
Wally, what you say is true but again, where is the evidence that Indo-Europeans somehow borrowed their concept of Rita from other cultures either Oriental or African (Egyptian). The earliest mention of Rita was by the Mitanni who also mention Vedic gods, but surely they have had this concept, if not longer, than at least just as old as Maat and the other similar concepts.
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Wally and Doug, the problem is that you guys are trying to tackle stuff that is way over your head. A specialist in the field would have trouble with that kind of research. You remind me of a group of southern rednecks. You come up with something that sounds good and here we go.
Honestly, Hore you are presenting a strawman, since whatever we are discussing is over YOUR head and you cannot comment on SPECIFIC points you disagree with. Therefore, seeing as how you cannot comment on anything posted, why not just read and learn? You cannot judge the validity of the arguments if YOU YOURSELF dont know the least bit about it, making any comments about what is or isnt over our heads a pitiful attempt to distract.....
Of course you will say that Westerners are NOT distorting Egyptian cosmological thought, but alas, to borrow YOUR terminology, I think MANY of them are in OVER their heads.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well the problem with comparing Egyptian cosmology to Indian and Persian cosmologies is that many interperet the Hinduism and Zoasrianism as being more mystical, transcending nature in the present type cosmologies whereas the Egyptian cosmology was more centered around death and the afterlife.
Correction, Egyptian cosmology was just as mystic if not more mystical than those of India and Persia since magic and such powers that animate from life are all pervasive. Egyptian cosmology was centered around life and nature period, with their transcendental beliefs based on the afterlife.
quote:This is a problem akin to what you referred to in the first post on this thread. What we understand about Egyptian cosmology is mostly WESTERN interperetations of a "dead" system of thought, whereas Zoastrianism and Hinduism are very much alive and well and able to transmit the true meaning of their teachings unencumbered by Western distortion.
Which is why it is important to study such concepts using models that bear as close a resemblance and similarity as it can. Thus Egypt was an African culture, so one must use modern day African models.
quote:If you study Egyptian hieroglyphs, you will see that there is MUCH transcendance in Egyptian thought. Many of the passages of cosmological significance have a capability to transmit transcendent ideas WITHOUT translation. Unfortunately, many of these images and passages are either decaying or only displayed haphazardly as photos in books, quite out of context. Even with these fragments, however, you will see that there is MUCH transcendent, "super" natural thought in Egyptian cosmology. But to see it, not only do you need to discard Western conceptions of Egyptian thought, but you must reconstruct the full experience of the Egyptian system of temples and heiroglyphic script. Only by seeing these symbols in the original context within which they were created can one really UNDERSTAND the transcendent power that is held. But that is only half of the story.
You are right about this. There is SO much we don't know about the Egyptian religion. Actual Religious rituals were the least recorded by the Egyptians which is understandable because what culture records sacred rituals which they believe are going to be around forever?
quote:The other half is the fact that for EVERY diety in the Egyptian system, there are writings or parables that flesh out the TRUE meaning and power of the Neter in principle. ONly by collecting, reading and understanding all of these works can one understand the TRUE transcendant principles of Neter. Unfortunately, what we often get today is only bits an pieces of random texts, but just like the images I mentioned earlier, even those fragments hold great power......
Such is the nature of the Egyptian religion.
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I agree, it's a common misconception in Western academics. The AE weren't obsessed with death, they saw death as an extension of life...but not neccessarile the end of it.
Do you know how exactly right you are? You have nailed it! The text is more accurately titled The Book of the Great Awakening. There's a lot of work to be done in correcting all of these Western distortions of African history and culture... [/QB]
Or the "Book of the Coming Forth By Day" as others have termed it. Either way the name is signifigant in that the difference EXEMPLIFIES the distortion inherent in Western analysis of Egyptian thought. "The Book of the Dead" symbolizes an absurd obsession with death, whereas book of Awakening/Coming Forth By Day signifies an AWAKENING of consciousness proceeding from the infinite ether. That "awakening" is symbolic of the process of transendent experience that Egyptology has sucked out of Egyptian cosmology. Westerners have for so long sought to downplay and diminish the power and majesty of Egyptian thought that they have purposely sucked all the power out of it through their distortions.
The concept of Ra is so much more than a solar diety. Ra represents the omnipotent radiant energies at the heart of life itself, which WE call God. As a radiant power behind the physical universe, Ra also represents divine will made manifest in the world. This divine will has as its principle expression the "intelligent design" found within ALL ASPECTS of the universe, in which all natural processes follow laws that are consistent THROUGHOUT the universe, as opposed to chaos. Therefore, Maat not only represents earthly law, but the basic principle of natural law made manifest through divine will radiating from the infinite point of the "sun" or god. Ra, on an earthly plane, represents manifest destiny, or the power to GUIDE one's own soul to the destiny desired based on one's own will, IN ACCORDANCE with nature and god's will....
But these are but mere glimpses of the totality of cosmological thought JUST represented in the two DIVINE Netjers of Ra and Maat. And this is just for 2 of the Netjers.......
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quote: ...at the top of the universal order stood a goddess, a teenage girl goddess who was often represented as a pair of twins, Ma'at. This unprepossessing goddess literally ruled everything. She was not the sun and she was not power and strength; she represented, rather, an abstraction. She was "Truth" or "Order." For the Egyptian believed that the universe was above everything else an ordered and rational place. It functioned with predictability and regularity; the cycles of the universe always remained constant; in the moral sphere, purity was rewarded and sin was punished. Both morally and physically, the universe was in perfect balance.
The Egyptian word for this balance was the Egyptian word for "truth," ma'at; this is perhaps the single most important aspect of Egyptian culture that you can learn. For once you really understand this concept, the whole of Egyptian culture begins to make sense. The order of the universe (ma'at ) functioned with unswerving accuracy; it was maintained by the goddess Ma'at. This meant that the concept of "truth" meant for the Egyptian the rational and orderly working of the universe rather than its diverse phenomena. The Egyptian, then, believed that he or she understood how the universe operated; all phenomena could be explained by an appeal to this understanding of the rationality of the universe.
I cannot emphasize strongly enough how important this concept of ma'at is to subsequent history. This idea that the universe is rational and that the "truth" of the universe is the underlying rationality and order of the universe rather than its diverse phenomena, passed from the Egyptians to the Greeks. The Greeks called the underlying order of the universe, logos, or "meaning," "order," "pattern." The early Christians adopted the logos in order to explain the moral order of the universe; the first line of the Gospel of John is, "In the beginning was the logos , and the logos was with God, etc." But the concept for the Greeks and the Christians was more or less the same as ma'at . The Egyptians believed that the ma'at of the universe was a god that benevolently ruled all aspects—human, material, and divine—of the universe; the Christians would likewise make the underlying rationality of the universe into God: "And the logos was God."
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Cameroonian Egyptologist Oum Ndigi refuted Swiss Egyptologist Erik Hornung's claim that the concept of Maat had no convincing parallel outside of the Sanskrit "Rta" pointing out the existence of the same concept of "Mbok" among Basaa people of Cameroon and the linguistic identity of the following Basaa and Kemetic forms:
Demotic: Mataa; Coptic: Mee "Justice, Rightness,Order, etc."
Basaa: Mataa, Mèé: "id."
French Egyptologist Alain Anselin also pointed out the existence of plenty of Maat's Afro-Egyptian cognates. I'll post them later if anyone is interested in them.
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. But the Kememu Maat was a goddess (a maternal trait) and these northern versions, it's a god (a paternal one). Do you know the attributes of this god in comparison to those of the goddess Maat?
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