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The conical hat in Meso-America is associated with Amerindian priesthood and as a symbol of political and religious authority . Leo Wiener (1922, v.II: p.321) wrote that:
"That the kingly and priestly cap of the Magi should have been preserved in America in the identical form, with the identical decoration,and should, besides, have kept the name current for it among the Mandingo [Malinke-Bambara/Manding] people , makes it impossible to admit any other solution than the one that the Mandingoes established the royal offices in Mexico".

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...and destinctly West African thing.
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See that's the thing I'm talking about. To my knowledge there has yet to be any DNA or verifiable linguistic evidence of this. No Mande trade goods have been found. Negroid features are not unique to "negroes". When scientists or anybody talks about theories like they are facts it leads to entrenched ideological positions and hinders the advancement of the science.

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There is considerable evidence of an African Mande influence on the Olmec besides the linguistic material. For example, the Olmec/Si/Mande introduced their religion to the Amerindians.


The Olmec religion or cult associations provide the best example of Mande: Malinke-Bambara cultural influences among the Olmecs. The best source of information on the Malinke-Bambara religion is G. Dieterlen (1957) Essai sur le religion Bambara . Dieterlen makes it clear that the Mande culture was transmitted within the Komow : traditional secret society of the Mande.

The two main deities of the Mande were Bemba and Faro. Bemba was the invisible Creator of mankind. Faro, was the visible god who was recognized as androgynous (male-female). The symbol of faro was twins. As a result, in traditional Malinke-Bambara society twins represented the two fold nature of Faro

We learn from the Dieterlen that the first Bambara-Malinke ancestors transformed into Birds and hyenas (Felines). This tradition led to the origin of the two major Mande cult associations Kuno (Bird) and Nama (Feline), gyo/jo ‘cult associations

The Nama (feline) initiatory society was organized to maintain order within society. The members of this jo were to insure ceremonial unity and defeat sorcery The leader of the Nama Jo , wear mask which combine totems of komo, horns and the mask represented immense spiritual power according to Zahan Dominique (1974), The Bambara .

The Komo was administered by sculptor-smiths. Their role was to guard society from people committing antisocial acts and protect people from malevolent spirits.

The leader of the Jo cult association was the Komo-tigi ‘chief of the komo’ . The Komo, teaches initiates ‘leadership’, self-sufficiency, military prowess and scientific knowledge.

The komo acculturated the Mande children. Thusly the children in the komo were called tigi-denw: ‘children of the tigi’ . The children often served as tigi-tuguw “carriers of the torches’.

The children belonged to the ntomo or n’domo . The ntomo association was charged with making the initiates “noble”.

And understanding of the traditional, pre-Islamic religion of the Malinke-Bambara allows us an intimate understanding of the Olmec religion.

The principal Olmec cult associations was that of the bird and the feline. This religious tradition of the Olmec, passed on to the Maya, are mentioned in the Book of Chumayel, which maintains that the three main cult associations that are suppose to have existed in ancient times were (1) the stone (cutters) cult, (2) the jaguar cult and (3) the bird cult. In lines 4-6 of the Book of Chumayel , we read that "Those with their sign in the bird, those with their sign in the stone, flat worked stone, those with their sign in the Jaguar-three emblems-".(Brotherston 1979).



The Olmec left testimony to this religious tradition in their art. These documents in sto ne indicate that the Olmec had to cult associations that of the Bird Mask and that of the Feline Mask. The Book of Chumayel, corresponds to the gylphs depicted on Monument 13 at La Venta .

. On Monument 13, at La Venta a personage in profile, he has a headress on his head and wears a breechcloth, jewels and sandals, along with four glyphs listed one above the other. The glyphs included the stone, the jaguar, and the bird emblems. Monument 13, at La Venta also has a fourth sign to the left of the personage a foot gylphs. This monument has been described as an altar or a low column.

The foot in Olmec is called "se", this symbols means to "lead or advance toward knowledge, or success". The "se" (foot) sign of the komow (cults) represent the beginning of the Olmec initiates pursuit of knowledge.

The meaning of Monument 13, reading from top to bottom, are a circle kulu/ kaba (the stone), nama (jaguar) and the kuno (bird). The interpretation of this column reading from left to right is "The advance toward success--power--for the initiate is obedience to the stone cutters cult, jaguar cult and the bird cult". The Jaguar mask association dominated the Olmec Gulf region.

In the central and southern Olmec regions we find the bird mask association predominate as typified by the Xoc bas relief of Chiapas, and the Bas Relief No.2, of Chalcatzingo. Another bird mask cult association was located in the state of Guerrero as evidenced by the humano-bird figure of the Stelae from San Miguel Amuco.

The religious orders spoken of in this stela are the Bird and Jaguar cults. These Olmec cults were Nama or the Humano-Jaguar cult; and Kuno or Bird cult. The leader of the Nama cult was called the Nama-tigi (see Nama chief Illustration 7 Stela No.5 Izapa) , or Amatigi (head of the faith). The leader of the Kuno cult was the Kuno-tigi (Kuno chief see Illustration 6 Stela No.5). These cult leaders initiated the Olmec into the mysteries of the cult.




Among the Olmecs this flame signified the luminous character of knowledge. The Kuno priest wears a conical hat(see Illustration No.6). The evidence of the conical hat on the Kuno priest is important evidence of the Manding in ancient America. The conical hat in Meso-America is associated with Amerindian priesthood and as a symbol of political and religious authority . Leo Wiener (1922, v.II: p.321) wrote that:
"That the kingly and priestly cap of the Magi should have been preserved in America in the identical form, with the identical decoration,and should, besides, have kept the name current for it among the Mandingo [Malinke-Bambara/Manding] people , makes it impossible to admit any other solution than the one that the Mandingoes established the royal offices in Mexico".


Acculturation of children was an important part duty of the Olmec priesthood. As a result we find many examples of children being provided knowledge by the priest.

The Olmec child is very evident in Olmec art. To the Olmec childhood represent the primitive state of mankind, when man was pure and ignorant of nature. Thus the child in Olmec art represents the human being when he left his creator’s hands: uncircumcised and androgynous.

Adults respected children very much. This view is supported by the motifs on Altar No.5 of LaVenta. On this monument we see a personage emerging from the stone altar with the glyph po gbe ‘Pure Righteousness’ on his headdress. He is carrying a babe in his arms resting on his lap.


On the other side of the monument we see two personages, each with a different helmet style. These scenes suggest that the Olmec child was to learn wisdom, this is illustrated by the animated conversation between the child and the priest.





On the right-hand side we see a priest and a child again. This time the priest has a snake on his helmet. Instead of carrying the child on his lap in this scene, the child is carried on the personage’s side and wearing a jaguar mask. This indicates that once the child completed the initiation he was recognized a individual to be respected capable of giving advise to adults.



These examples from Olmec iconography make it clear that the Olmec religion is exactly the same as the pre-Islamic religion of the Malinke Bambara.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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I don't have any problem with Winters myself...I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...and destinctly West African thing. I know that it was very much possible for the Ancients to cross the Atlantic. The Vikings did it, and maybe other cultures too. The only reason I'm still skeptical is because there has been no trace of ships of evidence of a sea-faring nation in West Africa. I know a port used on the modern coast of Morocco going out into the Atlantic was used by the Phoenocians. I think to make the claim irrefutable we need something more than the language sadly.

It was even noted in Black Spark, White Fire when Poe mentioned that "in 1974, the Polish craniologist Andrzej Wiercinski revealed that no fewer than 13.5% of the skeletons found from the Olmec cemetary of Tlatilco were Negroid

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As you can see from the above the ancient Maya look nothing like the Olmecs.

Some people claim that they have seen Olmec figures that look like contemporary native Americans. This may be true but practically all of the Olmec figures look African. At the following site I compare the Mayan type and the African type:
http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/olwrit.htm.htm


Many contemporary Mexicans look like Africans or Blacks because of the slave trade, which brought hundreds of thousands of Africans to Mexico to work in the mines and perform other task for their masters. A Cursory examination of these pictures of the Maya show that the ancient Maya look nothing like the Olmecs. How do they explain the fact that the Olmec look nothing like the Mayan people, if the Olmec were “indigenous” people they talk about.




Moreover, just because Africans may have come to America with Columbus, does not prove that they were not here before Columbus. Yet, subscription to these theories is logical, but logical assurance alone, is not good science.

Logically we could say that because Amerindians live in the Olmec heartland today, they may have lived in these areas 3000 years ago. But, the evidence found by Swadesh, an expert on the Mayan languages, of a new linguistic group invading the Olmec heartland 3000 years ago; and the lack of congruence between Olmec and Mayan art completely falsifies the conjectures of the Amerindian origin of the Olmec theorists. The opposite theory, an African origin for the Olmecs, deserves testing.

Some researchers claim that there is no scientific basis for the ability of African people to have remained unabsorbed in America. This is totally false there are many reports of Black tribes living in America when Europeans arrived in the New World.

The scientific evidence supports the African origin and perpetuation of an Olmec civilization in Mesoamerica from 1200 BC, up to around 400 AD. Let’s examine this theory. My hypothesis is that the Olmec people were Africans. There are five variables that support this theorem. They are: the following variables: 1) African scripts found during archaeological excavation; 2) the Malinke-Bambara origin of the Mayan term for writing; 3) cognate iconographic representations of African and Olmec personages; 4) the influence of Malinke-Bambara cultural and linguistic features on historic Mesoamerican populations; and 5) the presence of African skeletal material excavated from Olmec graves in addition to many other variables. The relation between these five variables or a combination of these variables explains the African origin of the Olmecs.

Let’s begin with the skeletal evidence. Some researchers maintain that the African was not indigenous to America. Although you make this claim you fail to acknowledge that in addition to Wiercinski’ analysis of the Olmec skeletons, many other researchers including C.C. Marquez, Estudios arqueologicos y ethnografico (Madrid,1920), Roland B. Dixon, The racial history of Man (N.Y.,1923) and Ernest Hooton, Up from the Ape (N.Y.,1931) and the Luzia remains make it clear that Africans were in the Americas before the native Americans crossed the Bearing Sea.

Supporters of the Native American origin of the Olmecs speak of people being absorbed by the Native Americans. Yet we know from the expansion of the Europeans in the Western Hemisphere, Eventhough the Native Americans outnumbered these people, they are in decline while the Europeans have prospered and multiplied.

There is skeletal evidence of Africans in Olmecland. The evidence of Wiercinski craniometrics have not been dissected and disputed.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/content.html


Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).

Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."

Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).

Many African skeletons have been found in Mexico. Carlo Marquez (1956, pp.179-180) claimed that these skeletons indicated marked pronathousness and prominent cheek bones.

Wiercinski found African skeletons at the Olmec sites of Monte Alban, Cerro de las Mesas and Tlatilco. Morley, Brainerd and Sharer (1989) said that Monte Alban was a colonial Olmec center (p.12).

Diehl and Coe (1996) admitted that the inspiration of Olmec Horizon A, common to San Lorenzo's iniitial phase has been found at Tlatilco. Moreover, the pottery from this site is engraved with Olmec signs.

According to Wiercinski (1972b) Africans represented more than 13.5 percent of the skeletal remains found at Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the Cerro remains (see Table 2). Wiercinski (1972b) studied a total of 125 crania from Tlatilco and Cerro.

There were 38 males and 62 female crania in the study from Tlatilco and 18 males and 7 females from Cerro. Whereas 36 percent of the skeletal remains were of males, 64 percent were women (Wiercinski, 1972b).

To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnostic traits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind.

In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco.
Table 1.Olmec Races
Racial Type Tlatilco
Norm Percent Cerro de Mesas
Norm Percent
Subpacific
Dongolan
Subainuid
Pacific
Armenoid
Armenoid-Bushman
Anatolian
Alpine
Ainuid
Ainuid-Arctic
Laponoid-Equatorial
Pacific-Equatorial

Totals (norm) 20 38.5
10 19.2
7 13.5
4 7.7
2 3.9
2 3.9
2 3.9
1 1.9
1 1.9
1 1.9
1 1.9
1 1.9
________________
52 7 63.6
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3 27.3
--- ----
--- ----
1 9.1
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The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.

Table 2:
Racial Composition:
Loponoid
Armenoid
Ainuid+Artic
Pacific
Equatorial+Bushman
Tlatico
21.2
18.3
10.6
36.5
13.5
Cerro de las Mesas
31.8
4.5
13.6
45.5
4.5

Poe (1997), Keita (1993,1996), Carlson and Gerven (1979)and MacGaffey (1970) have made it clear that these people were Africans or Negroes with so-called 'caucasian features' resulting from genetic drift and microevolution (Keita, 1996; Poe, 1997). This would mean that the racial composition of 26.9 percent of the crania found at Tlatilco and 9.1 percent of crania from Cerro de las Mesas were of African origin.

In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.

Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at
Tlatilco.

The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America.

Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people.

First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.

Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.

This makes it clear that we can not ignore the evidence. I have tried to keep up with the literature in this field over the past 30 years and I would appreciate someone reproducing on this forum citations of the articles which have conclusively disconfirmed the skeletal evidence of Wiercinski.

The fact remains African skeletons were found in Mesoamerica. This archaeological evidence supports the view that the Olmec were predominately African when we examine the anthropological language used to describe the Olmec skeletons analyzed by Wiercinski. See:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/Skeletal.htm

The genetic evidence supports the skeletal evidence that Africans have been in Mexico for thousands of years. The genetic evidence for Africans among the Mexicans is quite interesting. This evidence supports the skeletal evidence that Africans have lived in Mexico for thousands of years.

The foundational mtDNA lineages for Mexican Indians are lineages A, B, C and D.The frequencies of these lineages vary among population groups. For example, whereas lineages A,B and C were present among Maya at Quintana Roo, Maya at Copan lacked lineages A and B (Gonzalez-Oliver, et al, 2001). This supports Carolina Bonilla et al (2005) view that heterogeneity is a major characteristic of Mexican population.

Underhill, et al (1996) noted that:" One Mayan male, previously [has been] shown to have an African Y chromosome." This is very interesting because the Maya language illustrates a Mande substratum, in addition to African genetic markers. James l. Gutherie (2000) in a study of the HLAs in indigenous American populations, found that the Vantigen of the Rhesus system, considered to be an indication of African ancestry, among Indians in Belize and Mexico centers of Mayan civilization. Dr. Gutherie also noted that A*28 common among Africans has high frequencies among Eastern Maya. It is interesting to note that the Otomi, a Mexican group identified as being of African origin and six Mayan groups show the B Allele of the ABO system that is considered to be of African origin.

Some researchers claim that as many as seventy-five percent of the Mexicans have an African heritage (Green et al, 2000). Although this may be the case Cuevas (2004) says these Africans have been erased from history.

The admixture of Africans and Mexicans make it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec. Due to the fact that 75% of the contemporary Mexicans have African genes you find that many of them look similar to the Olmecs whereas the ancient Maya did not.


In a discussion of the Mexican and African admixture in Mexico Lisker et al (1996) noted that the East Coast of Mexico had extensive admixture. The following percentages of African ancestry were found among East coast populations: Paraiso - 21.7%; El Carmen - 28.4% ;Veracruz - 25.6%; Saladero - 30.2%; and Tamiahua - 40.5%. Among Indian groups, Lisker et al (1996) found among the Chontal have 5% and the Cora .8% African admixture. The Chontal speak a Mayan language. According to Crawford et al. (1974), the mestizo population of Saltillo has 15.8% African ancestry, while Tlaxcala has 8% and Cuanalan 18.1%.
The Olmecs built their civilization in the region of the current states of Veracruz and Tabasco. Now here again are the percentages of African ancestry according to Lisker et al (1996): Paraiso - 21.7% ; El Carmen - 28.4% ; Veracruz - 25.6% ; Saladero - 30.2% ; Tamiahua - 40.5%. Paraiso is in Tabasco and Veracruz is, of course, in the state of Veracruz. Tamiahua is in northern Veracruz. These areas were the first places in Mexico settled by the Olmecs. I'm not sure about Saladero and El Carmen.

Given the frequency of African admixture with the Mexicans a comparison of Olmec mask, statuettes and other artifacts show many resemblances to contemporary Mexican groups. As illustrated by the photo below.

But a comparison of Olmec figures with ancient Mayan figures , made before the importation of hundreds of thousands of slaves Mexico during the Atlantic Slave Trade show no resemblance at all to the Olmec figures.


Mayan Olmec Mayan

This does not mean that the Maya had no contact with the Africans. This results from the fact that we know the Maya obtained much of their culture, arts and writings from the Olmecs. And many of their gods, especially those associated with trade are of Africans. We also find some images of Blacks among Mayan art.

African ancestry has been found among indigenous groups that have had no historical contact with African slaves and thus support an African presence in America, already indicated by African skeletons among the Olmec people. Lisker et al, noted that “The variation of Indian ancestry among the studied Indians shows in general a higher proportion in the more isolated groups, except for the Cora, who are as isolated as the Huichol and have not only a lower frequency but also a certain degree of black admixture. The black admixture is difficult to explain because the Cora reside in a mountainous region away from the west coast”. Green et al (2000) also found Indians with African genes in North Central Mexico, including the L1 and L2 clusters. Green et al (2000) observed that the discovery of a proportion of African haplotypes roughly equivalent to the proportion of European haplotypes [among North Central Mexican Indians] cannot be explained by recent admixture of African Americans for the United States. This is especially the case for the Ojinaga area, which presently is, and historically has been largely isolated from U.S. African Americans. In the Ojinaga sample set, the frequency of African haplotypes was higher that that of European hyplotypes”.

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References
Carlson,D. and Van Gerven,D.P. (1979). Diffussion, biological determinism and bioculdtural adaptation in the Nubian corridor,American Anthropologist, 81, 561-580.

Carolina Bonilla et al. (2005) Admixture analysis of a rural population in the state of Gurerrero , Mexico, Am. Jour Phys Anthropol 128(4):861-869. retrieved 2/9/2006 at :
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/111082577/ABSTRACT

M.H. Crawford et al (1974).Human biology in Mexico II. A comparison of blood group, serum, and red cell enzyme frequencies and genetic distances of the Indian population of Mexico. Am. Phys. Anthropol, 41: 251-268.

Marco P. Hernadez Cuevas.(2004). African Mexicans and the discourse on Modern Mexico.Oxford: University Press.

James L. Guthrie, Human lymphocyte antigens:Apparent Afro-Asiatic, southern Asian and European HLAs in indigenous American populations. Retrieved 3/3/2006 at:
http://www.neara.org/Guthrie/lymphocyteantigens02.htm


R. Lisker et al.(1996). Genetic structure of autochthonous populations of Meso-america:Mexico. Am. J. Hum Biol 68:395-404.

Angelica Gonzalez-Oliver et al. (2001). Founding Amerindian mitochondrial DNA lineages in ancient Maya from Xcaret, Quintana Roo. Am. Jour of Physical Anthropology, 116 (3):230-235. Retreived 2/9/2006 at:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/85515362/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&


Desplagnes, M. (1906). Deux nouveau cranes humains de cites lacustres. L'Anthropologie, 17, 134-137.

Diehl, R. A., & Coe, M.D. (1995). "Olmec archaeology". In In Jill Guthrie (Ed.), Ritual and Rulership, (pp.11-25). The Art Museum: Princeton University Press.

Irwin,C.Fair Gods and Stone Faces.

Keita,S.O.Y. (1993). Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships, History in Africa, 20, 129-131.

Keita,S.O.Y.& Kittles,R.A. (1997). The persistence of racial thinking and the myth of racial divergence, American Anthropologist, 99 (3), 534-544.

MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.

Marquez,C.(1956). Estudios arqueologicas y ethnograficas. Mexico.

Rensberger, B. ( September, 1988). Black kings of ancient America", Science Digest, 74-77 and 122.

Underhill,P.A.,Jin,L., Zemans,R., Oefner,J and Cavalli-Sforza,L.L.(1996, January). A pre-Columbian Y chromosome-specific transition and its implications for human evolutionary history, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA,93, 196-200.

Van Rossum,P. (1996). Olmec skeletons African? No, just poor scholarship. http://copan.bioz.unibas.ch/meso/rossum.html.

Von Wuthenau, Alexander. (1980). Unexplained Faces in Ancient America, 2nd Edition, Mexico 1980.

Wiercinski, A.(1969). Affinidades raciales de algunas poblaiones antiquas de Mexico, Anales de INAH, 7a epoca, tomo II, 123-143.

Wiercinski,A. (1972). Inter-and Intrapopulational Racial Differentiation of Tlatilco, Cerro de Las Mesas, Teothuacan, Monte Alban and Yucatan Maya, XXXlX Congreso Intern. de Americanistas, Lima 1970 ,Vol.1, 231-252.

Wiercinski,A. (1972b). An anthropological study on the origin of "Olmecs", Swiatowit ,33, 143-174.

Wiercinski, A. & Jairazbhoy, R.A. (1975) "Comment", The New Diffusionist,5 (18),5.

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Winters, did you know there is evidence of black tribal people in South America before the Slave Trade?

There was a multitude of European explorers who left eyewitness accounts of black people living amoung the Indians at the time of the Spanish conquest. From Black Spark, White Fire

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I don't have any problem with Winters myself...I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...a destinctly West African thing. I know that it was very much possible for the Ancients to cross the Atlantic. The Vikings did it, and maybe other cultures too. The only reason I'm still skeptical is because there has been no trace of ships or evidence of a sea-faring nation in West Africa. I know a port used on the modern coast of Morocco going out into the Atlantic was used by the Phoenocians. I think to make the claim irrefutable we need something more than the language sadly.

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You say the Vikings did it. Did anyone find a Viking boat in the Americas?


During the neolithic period the western Sahara had many rivers. Today what we call the Niger river was divided into two rivers in c.5000 B.C. One was called the Upper Niger and the other the Lower Niger.

The Upper Niger rose in the mountains on the border of Sierra Leone and flowed northeastward into a closed basin in the Sahara; downstream the river there were many wide marshes and several large lakes. The Lower Niger rose in the Hoggar mountains of the Saharan zone. It was fed by streams from the Adrar massif. Winds from the Atlantic ocean took rains into North and West Africa which supported much vegetation in neolithic times.



.
In the Tichitt region of Mauritania, an area which is now desert there was a river now dried up which flowed into the Senegal river. Lake Chad was then much larger with a river from the Hoggar called the Tafassasset emptying in it. Rivers also flowed from the Moroccan Atlas mountains into the western Sahara. It would appear that the people who most influenced the history of North and West Africa after 4000 B.C. originally lived in the Fezzan region of Libya.

These Proto-Saharans came to Mexico in papyrus boats. A stone stela from Izapa,Chiapas in southern Mexico show the boats these Proto-Saharans used to sail to America. The voyagers manning these boats probably sailed down TAFASSASSET, to Lake Chad and thence down the Lower Niger River which emptied into the Atlantic. This provided the Mande a river route from the Sahara to the coast . These rivers, long dried up, once emptied into the Atlantic. Once in the Atlantic Ocean to Mexico and Brazil, by the North Equatorial Current which meets the Canaries Current off the Senegambian coast.
There are oral traditions and documentary evidence which support the early migration of the Mande people to Mexico, called the Olmecs by the Amerindians. The Olmecs probably called themselves Xi or Shi people.

Friar Diego de Landa, in "Yucatan before and After the Conquest", wrote that "some old men of Yucatan say that they heard from their ancestors that this country was peopled by a certain race who came from the East, whom God delivered by opening for them twelve roads through the sea".


.
This oral tradition of the Maya is supported by Stela 5, of Izapa. In Stela No. 5, we view a group of men on a boat riding the waves of an Ocean.At the right hand side of the boat we see a personage under a ceremonial umbrella. This umbrella was a symbol of princely status. Above his head is a jaguar glyph which according to Dr. Alexander von Wuthenau indicates that he was an Olmec.


.
This personage has an African hairdo and a writing stylus in his left hand. This Olmec scribe proves that the Olmec had writing which was deciphered by Clyde Ahmad Winters in 1978.(Winters 1979;Wuthenau 1981)

In the center of the boat we find a large tree. This tree has seven branches and twelve roots. The seven branches probably indicates the seven major clans that form ed the Olmec nation. The twelve roots of the tree which extend into the waves of the ocean from the boat, probably signifies the "twelve roads through the sea" mentioned by Friar Diego de Landa.
Stela No.5, also illustrates the two principal Olmec cults. On the right hand side of the stela, we see the Jaguar Prince instructing a youth in the mysteries of the Jaguar cult. On the left hand side we see a number of birds.



.
Here we also find a priest wearing a conical hat,also instructing a youth in the mysteries of the bird cult. It is clear that Stela No.5 from Izapa not only indicates the tree of life, it speaks to the origin of the Olmec from a nation across the sea. And that the Olmec people came to the New World during twelve migrations, as recorded by Friar de Landa.


In the Popol Vuh, the famous Mayan historian Ixtlixochtl, the Olmecs came to Mexico in "ships of barks"( probably a reference to papyrus boats or dug-out canoes used by the Proto-Saharans) and landed in Potonchan,which they commenced to populate.Mexican traditions claim that these migrates from the east were led by Amoxaque or Bookmen. The term Amoxaque, is similar to the Manding 'a ma n'kye':"he (is) a teacher". These Blacks are frequently seen in Mayan writings as gods or merchants.
.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

When the craniologist said 13.5% of the skeletons were Negroid...I assume he meant all the other skeletons were like the indegenous indians....and like I said, I'm still skeptical of this.

---

There is skeletal evidence of Africans in Olmecland. The evidence of Wiercinski craniometrics have not been dissected and disputed.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/content.html


Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).

Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."

Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).

Many African skeletons have been found in Mexico. Carlo Marquez (1956, pp.179-180) claimed that these skeletons indicated marked pronathousness and prominent cheek bones.

Wiercinski found African skeletons at the Olmec sites of Monte Alban, Cerro de las Mesas and Tlatilco. Morley, Brainerd and Sharer (1989) said that Monte Alban was a colonial Olmec center (p.12).

Diehl and Coe (1996) admitted that the inspiration of Olmec Horizon A, common to San Lorenzo's iniitial phase has been found at Tlatilco. Moreover, the pottery from this site is engraved with Olmec signs.

According to Wiercinski (1972b) Africans represented more than 13.5 percent of the skeletal remains found at Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the Cerro remains (see Table 2). Wiercinski (1972b) studied a total of 125 crania from Tlatilco and Cerro.

There were 38 males and 62 female crania in the study from Tlatilco and 18 males and 7 females from Cerro. Whereas 36 percent of the skeletal remains were of males, 64 percent were women (Wiercinski, 1972b).

To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnostic traits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind.

In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco.
Table 1.Olmec Races




.
The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.

Table 2:
Racial Composition:


.
Poe (1997), Keita (1993,1996), Carlson and Gerven (1979)and MacGaffey (1970) have made it clear that these people were Africans or Negroes with so-called 'caucasian features' resulting from genetic drift and microevolution (Keita, 1996; Poe, 1997). This would mean that the racial composition of 26.9 percent of the crania found at Tlatilco and 9.1 percent of crania from Cerro de las Mesas were of African origin.

In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.

Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at
Tlatilco.

The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America.

Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people.

First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.

Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.

This makes it clear that we can not ignore the evidence. I have tried to keep up with the literature in this field over the past 30 years and I would appreciate someone reproducing on this forum citations of the articles which have conclusively disconfirmed the skeletal evidence of Wiercinski.

The fact remains African skeletons were found in Mesoamerica. This archaeological evidence supports the view that the Olmec were predominately African when we examine the anthropological language used to describe the Olmec skeletons analyzed by Wiercinski. See:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/Skeletal.htm


References

Carlson,D. and Van Gerven,D.P. (1979). Diffussion, biological determinism and bioculdtural adaptation in the Nubian corridor,American Anthropologist, 81, 561-580.

Desplagnes, M. (1906). Deux nouveau cranes humains de cites lacustres. L'Anthropologie, 17, 134-137.

Diehl, R. A., & Coe, M.D. (1995). "Olmec archaeology". In In Jill Guthrie (Ed.), Ritual and Rulership, (pp.11-25). The Art Museum: Princeton University Press.

Irwin,C.Fair Gods and Stone Faces.

Keita,S.O.Y. (1993). Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships, History in Africa, 20, 129-131.

Keita,S.O.Y.& Kittles,R.A. (1997). The persistence of racial thinking and the myth of racial divergence, American Anthropologist, 99 (3), 534-544.

MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.

Marquez,C.(1956). Estudios arqueologicas y ethnograficas. Mexico.

Rensberger, B. ( September, 1988). Black kings of ancient America", Science Digest, 74-77 and 122.

Underhill,P.A.,Jin,L., Zemans,R., Oefner,J and Cavalli-Sforza,L.L.(1996, January). A pre-Columbian Y chromosome-specific transition and its implications for human evolutionary history, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA,93, 196-200.

Van Rossum,P. (1996). Olmec skeletons African? No, just poor scholarship. http://copan.bioz.unibas.ch/meso/rossum.html.

Von Wuthenau, Alexander. (1980). Unexplained Faces in Ancient America, 2nd Edition, Mexico 1980.

Wiercinski, A.(1969). Affinidades raciales de algunas poblaiones antiquas de Mexico, Anales de INAH, 7a epoca, tomo II, 123-143.

Wiercinski,A. (1972). Inter-and Intrapopulational Racial Differentiation of Tlatilco, Cerro de Las Mesas, Teothuacan, Monte Alban and Yucatan Maya, XXXlX Congreso Intern. de Americanistas, Lima 1970 ,Vol.1, 231-252.

Wiercinski,A. (1972b). An anthropological study on the origin of "Olmecs", Swiatowit ,33, 143-174.

Wiercinski, A. & Jairazbhoy, R.A. (1975) "Comment", The New Diffusionist,5 (18),5.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

It is very difficult to produce picture of
artifacts discovered in the Sahara of mande
manufacture because they are not published. But
from the literature we know that the people
around the time the Olmecs were making artifacts
in a green stone similar to jade.

Recently, archaeologist in Ivory Coast have
discovered stone heads three feet tall they
indicate that West Africans had the ability to
scuplt stone heads.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Can anyone produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali of this same
time period, 1200 BCE - 200 CE, that's of the same worksmanship
and representative style resembling either the Colosal Cabezos,
ceramic, or jade art pieces of humans of the Xi era? Did the
pre CE Mande play ball?

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

You say the Vikings did it. Did anyone find a Viking boat in the Americas?

---

Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

The authors of the article accompanying the head said that they dated the head to 2000 years ago, not 7000 years ago.






Takruri

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hardly think that one sculpture from Cote d'Ivoire (hypothetically
dating back 7000 years which incidently pre-dates the supposed "Mande"
exode from the Fezzan to the Hodh) of a style not even remotely like that
of Middle America 3000 years ago, can reasonably be assumed as evidence,
less lone proof, of Mande origin or influence on Olmec sculpture.

Nor does it satisfy the locus (1200 BCE - 200 CE Mauritania/Mali) of my request,
which is the time and place of earliest attested Mande civilization in West Africa.

Dr Winters, you always make a point of no civilizaton in the forest zone,
where Cote d'Ivoire lies, before the Common Era, basing yourself on the
work of the MacIntoshes. Your reasoning is that without agriculture
there was not a quantitatively significant population in that zone.

This is why you say Mande cultural beginnings are not indigenous
to West Africa but the central east Sahara toward Libya's south.

Now you're accepting that people (presumably Mande?) far south of Tichitt,
and much further southwest of Fezzan, had the leisure time 7000 years ago
to take up monolithic sculpture, interesting indeed.

Also, no documents cited describing specified African works resembling
the ceramics, or jade art pieces representing humans as do the Xi, nor
anything at all about a ball game fitting the specifics of my request.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

I hardly think that one sculpture from Cote d'Ivoire (hypothetically
dating back 7000 years which incidently pre-dates the supposed "Mande"
exode from the Fezzan to the Hodh) of a style not even remotely like that
of Middle America 3000 years ago, can reasonably be assumed as evidence,
less lone proof, of Mande origin or influence on Olmec sculpture.

Nor does it satisfy the locus (1200 BCE - 200 CE Mauritania/Mali) of my request,
which is the time and place of earliest attested Mande civilization in West Africa.

Dr Winters, you always make a point of no civilizaton in the forest zone,
where Cote d'Ivoire lies, before the Common Era, basing yourself on the
work of the MacIntoshes. Your reasoning is that without agriculture
there was not a quantitatively significant population in that zone.

This is why you say Mande cultural beginnings are not indigenous
to West Africa but the central east Sahara toward Libya's south.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Winter's claims are as valid as those made in this website:

http://www.greecetravel.com/archaeology/mitsopoulou/zulu/index.htm

According to the author of the site above, it were Zulus who spread civilization around the globe from Greece to China and from India to the Americas!

---

You being the same person who once said East Africans are all of the Elongated type?

Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

The matter presented in your reply to these issues I raised are off the mark and do not at all address my request, and we have yet to get
to how Mande living in the Hodh at that time knew there was a Middle America and why they'd want to go there and their naval acumen and need to send priests, artists, scribes, militarists, farmers, and other assorted deliberate colonist to a destination where they introduced a material civilization unknown to the Hodh or the Fezzan.

An essay on various elements of African prehistory is not what I'm calling for.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
An essay on Africen prehistory is exactly what you're asking for.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Your questions are off mark. You act as though
ancient Africans were less than human, timid and
afraid of adventure.

... you imply from your post that Africans could
not have the same motivations as Europeans, who
left Europe to settle the entire world.

Your ideas about Africans are racist an imply
that Africans are cowards, too timid to venture
from their homes. To read your post one would
believe that the ancient Mande were not humans.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

No. This is what I'm asking for and you've again avoided.

For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE
produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali
that's of the same
worksmanship and
representative style
resembling either Xi
* Colosal Cabezos,
* ceramic art pieces depicting humans,
* jade art pieces depicting humans.
Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.


I don't need pictures just citations from archaeologists.

Nothing save fulfilling the requirements satisfies the requirements.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Back off!! I'm the guy what posted Mansa Bubakari II's sense
of wonder and personal wanderlust for his 2200 vessel
excursion across the Atlantic.

However this Malinke emperor knew nothing of any transAtlantic
Mande colonization 2000 years previous to his.


I also posted about the mtepe vessels of the pre-Swahili
coast and Indian Ocean voyage.

------------------------

---

quote:

---

Your ad hominem attack is uncalled for, highly insulting
and covers your ass no better than the emperor's new clothes,
and is poor excuse for failing to comply to my request
with mirrors and smoke instead of simply saying the
answers will require more research as the existing
literature does not speak to it, or whatever.

At least that's what I'd've expected from the mouth
of a scholar involved in an academic discussion, not
these name calling and grandstanding tactics of a losing
debater's last ditch efforts to gain his audience's sympathy
after not being able to command their intellect.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

You being the same person who once said East Africans are all of the Elongated type?

---

When did I say this??..

LOL Don't get mad and start making false accusations because of what I just posted!

More to come.

Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

You being the same person who once said East Africans are all of the Elongated type?

---

When did I say this??..

LOL Don't get mad and start making false accusations because of what I just posted!

More to come.

---

Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Those are the specifics I'm dealing with here. Other specifics such
as language, calendar, religion, nautics, etc., is outside the scope
of these particular precise specifics and can be handled once they
are addressed.

Stop the hating, name calling, and insinuation and start comporting
yourself like the scholar I once respected instead of falling
back on race, something all can plainly see that you not I have
introduced into the discussion to cover your nakedness.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I was not attacking you personally. If someone limits the possibility and ability of a people due their race they are racist. Here you are living in America, which is ruled by Europeans who traveled thounsands of miles to take this country over; yet you can't believe that Africans can be motivated to travel thousands of miles to found a colony in a new land due to a sense of adventure and trade, that is a racist statement.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You keep trying to change the topic of this
thread. That topic is the Mande influence on
Olmec civilization and Religion. If you want
to discuss some other issues start your own
thread.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

This is the height of ignorance comparing 15th century CE expansion,
the nautical component of which was due to adapting certain Islamic
maritime technologies, to 14th century pre-bronze oceanic nautics.

---

What are you talking about. I have not discussed any 15th century nautica in this post.

The only nautica I discussed in this thread was an ancient Saharan boat and a boat from Izapa Mexico, both dating BC, that show the same Mande signs on them.



Comparison Izapa and Saharan boat.

http://www.geocities.com/ahmadchiek/boats2.jpg


You have to be tripping. Why would I discuss 15th Century nautica when we're discussing the Olmecs.


.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Takruri

quote:

---

This is the height of ignorance comparing 15th century CE expansion,
the nautical component of which was due to adapting certain Islamic
maritime technologies, to 14th century pre-bronze oceanic nautics.

---

What are you talking about. I have not discussed any 15th century nautica in this post.

The only nautica I discussed in this thread was an ancient Saharan boat and a boat from Izapa Mexico, both dating BC, that show the same Mande signs on them.


You have to be tripping. Why would I discuss 15th Century nautica when we're discussing the Olmecs.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE
produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali
that's of the same
worksmanship and
representative style
resembling either Xi
* Colosal Cabezos,
* ceramic art pieces depicting humans,
* jade art pieces depicting humans.
Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.

---

quote:

---

Jadeite is a pyroxene mineral with composition NaAlSi2O6. Jadeite is found only in metamorphic rocks that form under high pressure and relatively low temperature conditions, usually along transverse faults. It has a Mohs hardness of about 6.5 to 7.0 depending on the mineral impurities present. Associated minerals include: glaucophane, lawsonite, muscovite, aragonite, serpentine, and quartz. Jadeite's color commonly ranges from white through pale apple green to deep jade green but can also be blue-green (like the famous and recently rediscovered "Olmec Blue" jade), lavender, and a multitude of other rare colors. Color is largely affected by the presence of trace elements such as chromium and iron. It's translucence can be anywhere from entirely solid through opaque to almost clear. Variations in color and translucence are often found even within a single specimen. Currently, the best known sources of gem quality jadeite are California, Myanmar, New Zealand and more recently Guatemala; however, mineral jadeite is also found in California, British Columbia, Alaska, Turkestan, and a few other places.

Jadeite is one of the minerals recognized as the gemstone jade . The other is the green amphibole, nephrite. Typically, the most highly valued colors of jadeite are the most intensely green, translucent varieties, though traditionally white has been considered the most valuable of the jades by the Chinese, known for their carefully crafted jade pieces. Currently, the most highly valued variety of jadeite is known as "Imperial Green" jade and is characterized by an emerald green color with a high level of translucence. Other colors, like "Olmec Blue" jade, which is characterized by its deep blue-green, translucent hue with white flecking, are also becoming more highly valued because of its unique beauty and historical use by the Mesoamerican Olmec; however, this variety was only recently rediscovered and is only being minimally exploited by native Guatemalans. It is thus difficult to obtain and as yet too rare and little known to have attained great value as a gemstone.

---

Posts: 477 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Yet you speak to me with contumely and degradation, telling me
I'm tripping, calling me a racist, preaching to me I should be ashamed,
labelling me anything but a child of God, just generally belittling me
anyway you can.

And why? Simply because I raised some issues you
aren't presently
prepared to get into. I asked them over 10 weeks ago at
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003276;p=1#000047
and further commented on your response at
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003276;p=2#000091

YOU went way back there, dug up my questions, and transplanted them
here and now into this thread, then falsely accused me of taking
this thread offtopic by defending my position, a sleeping dog you
wouldn't leave laying.

I find this behavior reprehensible and cowardly.

Also, if you can't counter me in a respectful tone then expect to receive
the same street level disrespectful ridiculing tone you've lowered yourself
to dish out to me. The choice is yours.

---

quote:

---

The matter presented in your reply to these issues I raised are off
the mark and do not at all address my request, and we have yet to get
to how Mande living in the Hodh at that time knew there was a Middle
America and why they'd want to go there and their naval acumen and
need to send priests, artists, scribes, militarists, farmers, and other
assorted deliberate colonist to a destination where they introduced a
material civilization unknown to the Hodh or the Fezzan.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
LOL The only one 'trippin' is YOU Clyde and all over your pseudo-scholarship.

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Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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The matter presented in your reply to these issues I raised are off
the mark and do not at all address my request, and we have yet to get
to how Mande living in the Hodh at that time knew there was a Middle
America and why they'd want to go there and their naval acumen and
need to send priests, artists, scribes, militarists, farmers, and other
assorted deliberate colonist to a destination where they introduced a
material civilization unknown to the Hodh or the Fezzan.

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Other people jump on you calling you a pseudoscholar, a nut case,
and worse. So what do you do? You take it out on me when I
take you seriously and attempt to engage in a discussion with you.

Far from makubwa, with each reply youre making yourself kidogo.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Their style looks original, created by themselves. If anything it
resembles East Asian more than West African art.

Can you tell me more about the proper indigenous name of the "Olmec"?
I've used Xi but it seems Huixtotin is more appropriate, right?

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Posts: 477 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Makubwa I am, kidogo you. At least I am able to conduct original research instead of parroting what ever I read.

It is your replies that betry you as kidogo. Granted, one can jifunza tangu utoto, learn from a child, but your behavior is kitoto, you can not counter my evidence of African history of navigation and ship building, Mande writing, African skeletons, and Mande religion so you start asking about something that is not even being discussed in this thread. This is child like behavior.

You called me a coward. You are the coward. Name one publication you have ever written. Until you have the nerve to publish, you don't have the right to call anyone a coward. At least I have the nerve to conduct research and publish it.

The fact that my research is published shows that my research is supported by the editors who publish my work.

People on this site can call me anything they which, but if they don't present evidence to counter my evidence they are speaking empty words, words which betray their jealousy and fear of the truth.

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Yea, you mention the mtepe, but why not discuss the Ethiopian colonies in Ecuador and Peru? Why don't you talk about the influence of the Axumites on the Moche religion and architecture?

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Posts: 477 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

Why are you trolling Djehuti? You're starting to act like Horemheb now. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion why post just to attack people?

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Ahem. Excuse me?? I already gave some input near the beginning of this thread. Why are you lying saying that I said all East Africans were elongated or something?! LOL

If you want more input, I will give it to you...

Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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I would like to know if you have any proof or factual evidence to support this claim because IT IS VERY INTERESTING TO ME. Their is some historical text to support this claim though I would like to know if you have any established evidence Eurocentric or Afrocentric it doesn't matter because a fact is a fact.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings:

alTakruri wrote:

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Can you tell me more about the proper indigenous name of the "Olmec"?
I've used Xi but it seems Huixtotin is more appropriate, right?

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According to Diehl the information
about the name can be found in the Codex
Mendoza, where the Nahuatl speaking Aztec,
referred to the people who inhabited the area
which we today associate with being the
historical land inhabited by the "Olmecs" were
known in the Codex Mendoza as OLMECA-HUIXTOTIN.

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
... you start asking about something that
is not even being discussed in this thread.
This is child like behavior.

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged |