posted
This is far too important a topic to be locked due to the nonsense of childish trolls, which is their purpose in the first place; to interfere with or disrupt intelligent conversation! Posts that are not directly related to the subject matter should be deleted rather than ending the entire topic being discussed! Or is the matter of restoring the Mdu Ntr to a national language for Africa somehow "off topic?" (Indeed, perhaps it may prove necessary to create a forum or blog dedicated to this important matter.)
quote: a) Because of the realities of modern Africa, NO current African language would be acceptable to those who are not connected to the particular language selected! Can you imagine the political and social consequences in say, Nigeria, if one ethnic language would be chosen as the official language of that state? The extreme opposite of this example is best illustrated by South Africa today, which has several official languages. Kind of like an official 'tower of Babel.'
b) KiSwahili is a commercial language, devised for mercantile purposes and is a composite of Arabic, Persian and native African ("Bantu")languages. It is not, however, relegated to a specific ethnic group, and thus would be also a candidate as a universal language...
c) But the clearest choice, in my opinion, is to use the classical Ancient Egyptian language, revive it in the same manner that the Zionists revived the Hebrew language. (You learn from history; ALL history) It is an African classical language; it isn't specific to any African ethnic group; it is also a written language... d) To select another classical African language, such as "Meroitic" would be a cop-out to the "Nubian" ruse; it should be Pharaonic Egyptian!
Some examples of the methodology that can be used to revive the Pharaonic Egyptian language: a) We know that the Mdu Ntr word for "not" is written "nn" In Coptic, this word is pronounced "Anon" In Yoruba, this word is pronounced "En En" The institute would then make further comparisons to Beja, Oromo, etc., as to the pronunciation of this word in those languages to determine the precise vocalic of the original Mdu Ntr word.
b) The written Mdu Ntr expression "Jnk Nfr" is gibberish to anyone wanting to speak the language; to one merely "reading" it, it is easy to see that the expression means "I am good/pleasant" In Coptic, the word for "I am" is pronounced "Anok", so we understand that, at least in Coptic "Jnk" is pronounced "Anok" - It may have a more perfect rendering in the Beja languages. In Coptic, the word for "goodness" is pronounced "Noufre" - it too, may also have a more perfect rendering in other related languages, as Budge correctly suggested; there are several Sudanese languages with the word "Nfr" in them and which means the same as the word in the Mdu Ntr.
As Diop also demonstrated, the Mdu Ntr word for "to seize" - "kf" is more perfectly rendered in Wolof - "Kef" than in Coptic - "Keh" Thus, the grammar and structure of the language has already been laid out by scholars, survives in Coptic, and other African languages; the point of departure for the restoration of the language is in restoring the vocalics of the language.
This would be the task of the Pharaonic Egyptian Academy, that would ideally be under the sponsorship of the African Union...
It's like making Greek the pan-European language because it was the language of 'Classical' European civilization.
Or worse, since Africa is much larger and much more ancient with way more different groups of peoples living in it.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Wally, this topic is riduculous!
It's like making Greek the pan-European language because it was the language of 'Classical' European civilization.
Or worse, since Africa is much larger and much more ancient with way more different groups of peoples living in it.
It is not ridiculous at all.
All you have to do is take note of the use of Latin in modern medicine and in law. There's a reason for this choice.
English, a language of modern European colonialist expansion has done a tremendous service to the United States of America in creating a common American culture.
Do you think that the Islamic expansion into Africa, merely banished the native languages and replaced it with Arabic on a whim?
Pan-Africanism is a very real, very active political process in the African world. The choice of a common, unifying language for this nation is hardly a silly notion...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^ Yes, but that is because most of Europe was under Roman i.e. Latin speaking domination.
You cannot make the same arguments for Africa.
The only area which were under Egyptian domination was "Nubia". And well you don't even see them speaking 'Coptic'!
Chinese can probably be thought of as being a pan-Asian language since China has influenced so many cultures in Asia from Vietnam, to Korea, to Japan. However, all the other countries were never influenced by it. There is more Spanish influence in the Filipine language than Chinese!
I just don't see it happening, dude.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^ I see your point but for PURELY PERSONAL reasons, I'd like to see this Pan-African language brought to life.
The Ancient Egyptians say: (and not in these exact words) create it in the MIND and in TIME, it shall be MANIFEST.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: Djehuti wrote: Yes, but that is because most of Europe was under Roman i.e. Latin speaking domination.
No, Latin is a language used in both medicine and law because it is viewed as part of Classical Greco-Roman civilization and culture. I went to a college prep high school in which we had to have 2 years of a foreign language. The choices were: -Spanish -German -French -Latin
quote: Dejuti wrote: You cannot make the same arguments for Africa.
The choice of a common language for Africa has been a work in progress in the African world for years now. It has been proposed by many African intellectuals that the choice should be Swahili, for reasons I have already stated. Because of the fact that Africa, namely Black Africa has reclaimed its own Classical heritage, Kemet, raises the possibility of the Mdu Ntr being considered. More importantly, as Kwame Nkrumah wrote Africa is part of human history and cannot be exempt from the world historical processes...
quote: Djehuti wrote: The only area which were under Egyptian domination was "Nubia". And well you don't even see them speaking 'Coptic'!
You are obviously out of the loop on this subject: The Coptic church is not only situated in Egypt but one of, if not the, oldest Coptic church and population in the world is that of modern day Ethiopia. The head of this church is the Abuna, the same as in Egypt...
quote: Chinese can probably be thought of as being a pan-Asian language since China has influenced so many cultures in Asia from Vietnam, to Korea, to Japan. However, all the other countries were never influenced by it. There is more Spanish influence in the Filipine language than Chinese!
To my knowledge, there is no socio-political movement in Asia for the creation of a Pan-Asian state. The statements you make are only relevant to those merely interested in linguistics. The fact, for example, that Tagalog has been more influenced by Spanish than Chinese, is absolutely irrelevant to the adoption of a common lingua franca for a nation or federation of nations...
quote: Djehuti wrote: I just don't see it happening, dude.
As I've stated already, you're just out of the loop on this one. I've provided links for anyone interested to gain a general idea of the socio-political movement of Pan-Africanism; its origins, its growth and development and where it is today. Like all social movements, it cannot be judged by those who must have instant gratification to be satisfied with its progress:
>> Not very long ago, many folks around the world could not even foresee the end of Apartheid in South Africa.
>> It took over 34 years after activist Ho Chi Minh secretly returned to Vietnam after 30 years in exile and organizes a nationalist organization known as the Viet Minh (Vietnam Independence League); this was the beginning of the end for Western colonization of that nation. When the first Vietnamese picked up a gun to fight for national liberation, it was in reality the end of foreign domination.
>> No one but die hard nationalists would have believed that the 13 American colonies would ever overthrow British rule!
The creation of a common language is, of course, an intellectual matter rather than an armed struggle, but is part of a general movement towards the African renaissance; one that is firmly championed by Thabo Mbeki, president of South Africa, amongst many others...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Chinese can probably be thought of as being a pan-Asian language since China has influenced so many cultures in Asia from Vietnam, to Korea, to Japan. . . .
The Chinese are not very well liked in parts of asia, as far as Africa is concerned any living language would be too laden down with cultural/historical baggage to seriously considered.
The task of modernising the Ae language(what would we call it?)would also be a major task, how would scientific terms be handled ? Hopefully in a rational manner avoiding arbitrary names for measurements and physical processes.
Exactly how do I pronounce Mdu Ntr ?
Posts: 14 | From: Hampton Roads, Va | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The notion of a pan African language is total nonsense.
Can Asia have a pan Asian language whereby the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnam, Taiwan etc etc (oriental, mongolian types) and India, Pakistani, Bangladeshi let alone the in between Fillipines, Thia, nepalese, develop a language?
Africa is a continent that is very diverse, especially on the Eastern side.
Probably the most diverse continent on Earth.
The notion of 1 is out of the question!
Maybe pan African diasporan Africans (ie African Americans, West Indians) can develop a pan African language.
In that case I would suggest that they learn Yurubo or some other west African tongue, as this is were thier ancestors came from.
-------------------- Hello! Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
But consider that there are more Chinese speaking Han Chinese than the population of the whole. Most Indians--1 billion plus--, I believe, know Hindi or Bengali.
And in South America only 2--except some tiny pockets of French and English speakers--languages are spoken Spanish and French.
In Western Europe English is a kind of lingua franca especially for the Northern Europeans. Germans, Swedes Finns, Danes a nd Dutch all speak English fluently.
And Arabic is the language of the whole extensive Arab world--stretching all the way from Morocco over to the Gulf states by way of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Of course, the vast majority of Arabs are Arabised from other cultures and ethnicities.
So maybe there could be 2 or 3 lingua francas for Africa. That was the point of the thread.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Wally: No, Latin is a language used in both medicine and law because it is viewed as part of Classical Greco-Roman civilization and culture. I went to a college prep high school in which we had to have 2 years of a foreign language. The choices were: -Spanish -German -French -Latin
But the reason why is because of Roman domination! Latin was the language of the Romans who conquered vast territories of Europe. Therefore Latin was the language of the "civilized" world and 2nd to that Greek, because Classical Greece was somewhat older than Rome.
quote:The choice of a common language for Africa has been a work in progress in the African world for years now. It has been proposed by many African intellectuals that the choice should be Swahili, for reasons I have already stated. Because of the fact that Africa, namely Black Africa has reclaimed its own Classical heritage, Kemet, raises the possibility of the Mdu Ntr being considered. More importantly, as Kwame Nkrumah wrote Africa is part of human history and cannot be exempt from the world historical processes...
The fact of the matter is that Africa experienced different historical events and processes from Europe. Europe is much smaller in area and therefore easy for empires like Rome to take over large areas of the European region. However, such events did not happen in Africa.
quote:You are obviously out of the loop on this subject: The Coptic church is not only situated in Egypt but one of, if not the, oldest Coptic church and population in the world is that of modern day Ethiopia. The head of this church is the Abuna, the same as in Egypt...
And the point obviously went over your head. The Coptic language has nothing to do with the rest of Africa historically speaking but has been confined mostly to Egypt.
quote:To my knowledge, there is no socio-political movement in Asia for the creation of a Pan-Asian state. The statements you make are only relevant to those merely interested in linguistics. The fact, for example, that Tagalog has been more influenced by Spanish than Chinese, is absolutely irrelevant to the adoption of a common lingua franca for a nation or federation of nations...
And to my knowledge, a Pan-African state would be virtually impossible considering the vastness and diversity of Africa. Many Afrasian speakers like Somalis or Oromo would scoff at the idea of Egyptian as being the lingua franca for all of Africa, what do you think non-Afrasian speakers would say?
quote:As I've stated already, you're just out of the loop on this one. I've provided links for anyone interested to gain a general idea of the socio-political movement of Pan-Africanism; its origins, its growth and development and where it is today. Like all social movements, it cannot be judged by those who must have instant gratification to be satisfied with its progress:
I am "out of the loop" because I am a realist with realistic views and not some idealised conception that is nonsensical when one really examines it.
quote:>> Not very long ago, many folks around the world could not even foresee the end of Apartheid in South Africa.
LOL And which folks were these?! This is a non-sequitor. Everyone with enough sense could foresee the demise of small minority white rule over a predominantly black African country as being inevitable. But this has nothing to do with the simple situation that ancient Egyptian is almost a dead language and one that is confined to one corner of Africa.
quote:>> It took over 34 years after activist Ho Chi Minh secretly returned to Vietnam after 30 years in exile and organizes a nationalist organization known as the Viet Minh (Vietnam Independence League); this was the beginning of the end for Western colonization of that nation. When the first Vietnamese picked up a gun to fight for national liberation, it was in reality the end of foreign domination.
Yes, and the dominant language of Vietnam became Vietanamese again and not French. Although Vietnam is heavily influenced by Chinese due to past Chinese colonisation. How Egyptian can become the pan-African language is silly.
quote:>> No one but die hard nationalists would have believed that the 13 American colonies would ever overthrow British rule!
And the colonies as well as their descendants still speak English!
quote:The creation of a common language is, of course, an intellectual matter rather than an armed struggle, but is part of a general movement towards the African renaissance; one that is firmly championed by Thabo Mbeki, president of South Africa, amongst many others...
LOL Again, it is YOU who is out of the loop! Or should I say out of reality.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
The notion of a pan African language is total nonsense.
A great undertaking, perhaps; given the current global socio-political climate. Nonsense? Absolutely not!
quote:Prince_of_punt:
Africa is a continent that is very diverse, especially on the Eastern side.
Funny you should say that, given the incessant portrayal of East Africa as a haven for a single "type" [usually under the banner of "horners", "cushitic-looking", "elongated", etc] by various discussants here, thereby invoking less diversity on that "side" of the continent than anywhere else.
quote: The notion of 1 is out of the question!
Maybe pan African diasporan Africans (ie African Americans, West Indians) can develop a pan African language.
In that case I would suggest that they learn Yurubo or some other west African tongue, as this is were thier ancestors came from.
Actually, west Africa isn't the exclusive African region, where diasporan groups came from.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The bottom line is why would any nation want to learn a dead languge which has been dead for some thousands of years? its just redicoulas. I think many people in this forum suffer from severe case of Egyptomania. What's wrong with the contemporary languages of Africa that makes people think of imposing a long dead language as a pan-african language? Almost seems as if current languages are not good enough. In Africa the only countries that have indeginous languages as official language are Eritrea, Somalia and Ethiopia plus Swaziland, and i don't think any one of us have the intentions or will to change this for a dead language. Egypt was probably nice but its history, let us keep it that way and move forward.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
And to my knowledge, a Pan-African state would be virtually impossible considering the vastness and diversity of Africa. Many Afrasian speakers like Somalis or Oromo would scoff at the idea of Egyptian as being the lingua franca for all of Africa, what do you think non-Afrasian speakers would say?
Hmmm; Djehuti, looks like you were onto something when you made that comment, weren't you?!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
In East Asia, Chinese was the lingua franca for many countries due to Chinese influence whether from expansion and colonisation or just trade. Chinese has influenced many language in cultures from Koreans and Japanese (who hate to admit this fact) in the Northeast to Vietnamese and Malays in the Southeast, however it would be out of the question to make the Chinese language thee language to represent all of Eastern Asia.
Now in Africa, you have never had any one African culuture or even empire that had influence as extensive over the continent, let alone the Egyptians whose influence was pretty much confined to the Nile Valley and the Levant and parts of the Near East during their imperial times.
Why make Egyptian the language for all African peoples, especially since it's descendant Coptic is barely still spoken in Egypt today?!!
And all of this not to mention many modern Egyptians who are very much "disturbed" by the notion of Egypt being African!
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think some folks take the idea of an African-derived lingua franca as a "replacement" of indigenous regional languages, which of course, would clearly not be the case. The idea of such would be for international diplomacy with a nationalist overtone, to be used in international political forums, and perhaps as a dual option for official use, in those countries where folks don't want to use anything short of a local language for official purposes. I agree that pulling off something like this, is going to be a great task, given the current geopolitical climate.
One thing that needs immediacy for sure, under the current geopolitical climate, is the significantly increased political consciousness of the general populace about situations within their respective territorities, as well as those outside their borders, including world over.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
Mdu Ntr would be a "No Brainer", matter of fact I think they are LATE. This should have been done along time ago, how long is it going to take for them to get this going? It's a crying shame that such a important language isn't already listed as a OFFICIAL language. For those who don't understand, let me help you, their is no Egyptomania going on, most people want to learn the TRUTH about Kemet, this might seem simple, though when you begin studying the facts you will find that MOST Egyptologist are Racist Europeans and Racist Arabs who are practising History Stealing and RACISM by writing LIES towards Afrikans.
Learning the truth about Kemet is far more difficult than it should be, that's why I am thankful for all those HONEST Afrocentric Scholars who fought hard to give the TRUTH to the world.
Having Mdu Ntr as a Official language would be a important Symbolic gesture, Afrikans would not have to worry about not wanting to speak this language because I am sure that no one would demand, "speak it or die" rules such as we have seen with other forms of foreign influences in Afrika.
Mdu Ntr Afrikan Official language is LONG OVERDUE.
posted
How was the Hebrew language updated to fit into the 20th c. ?Am I wrong in assuming it was being used in a limited fashion already, and merely expanded ?
posted
This is a good debate, except for those who think that the choice of a Pan-African language is a vacuous one, taking place only within the realms of someone's mind. It isn't simply the argument for a Pan-African language, this necessity has already been decided by African intellectuals; the question is which language to choose! For example, here is but one record of this debate, in this case favoring Kiswahili...
quote: Ayo Bamgbose on the Language Question Brandon Brown, English 27, 1997 Then after explaining to me the importance of using English as a language of wider communication, Soyinka told me exactly where he stood within the debate. He advocates the use of Kiswahili as a pan-African LWC. This plan has some drawbacks. A pan-African language must satisfy the political needs of the entire continent. Because language itself is closely tied to culture and history, implementation of such a plan may pose problems unforeseen by visionaries like Soyinka. However, the installation of Kiswahili, a trading language perhaps easier to learn then many other languages, would be an obvious victory in the struggle to decentralize control over language. Whether the impulse is to attach oneself to Great Traditions or to sever oneself from them, there is general agreement in all these stances about one thing: language affirms a set of social patterns and reflects a particular cultural taste. Writers who imitate the language of another culture therefore, allow themselves to be defined by it. The best of the commonwealth writers who do use English, however, have done more than just use language; they have also modified it, in the process of generating alternative literary possibilities (New 303).
For further information on this subject, one simply has to google> swahili "pan-african language" (Swahili being the current leader; the purpose of this post is to posit the choice of Mdu Ntr...)
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: Swahili is probably the closest to being an African language extensively spoken by lots of different ethnic groups within Africa.
I think the same thing might be said about Huasa on the western side of Africa.
Hausa? why?
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Because, isn't Hausa used as a lingua franca in northern Nigeria and other parts of West Africa?
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hausa is spoken in Nigeria, Chad(perhaps?) and Ghana. Yoruba is spoken in Nigeria, Cameroon, Togo & Benin.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
African American (USA) are the most language homogenous group in the Americas. The group known as West Indians are far to heterogenous due to English, Spanish, French, Dutch language and immigration patterns to develop any pan African language. Africa is also too heterogenous (N,S,E and West) for single language usage.
Esperanto, on the other hand, is much more doable based on the universality of a Angl-Saxon Latin based commercial foothold to enable a process that is already in place. Africa never had a universal language base (like Latin) so it is more of a challenge to institute this novo-pan African language for all Africans regardless of clime.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti: surely, Yoruba is more suitable
Well I don't know, but I read somewhere that Hausa was the most widely spoken in west Africa, as you can see Djehuti is also under the same impression.
Besides due to this weird fixation with Egypt among so called "pan Africans", don't you think Hausa which is atleast in the Afro-asiatic stock of languages is closer to this, than Yuroba?
Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^It may come as a surprise to you, but most Africans don't stop to contemplate or 'fixate' themselves about ancient Egypt. In academia, of course, when the issue comes up, African participants will defend the Nile Valley's African base, which is the only realistic one.
In any potential agreement on a broad African lingua franca, agreement between African leaders, would be a primary step towards doing so, as they hold the social funds in their respective nations.
But what would be the benefit of any such lingua franca?...
Well, relatively much freer movement of Africans within the continent transcending national boundaries like those drawn by 'colonialists', of course, and subsequent broader socio-political consciousness cohesion among Africans.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ you're so right. It's worth it even if just for the "subsequent broader socio-political consciousness cohesion among Arricans".
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti: surely, Yoruba is more suitable
Well I don't know, but I read somewhere that Hausa was the most widely spoken in west Africa, as you can see Djehuti is also under the same impression.
Besides due to this weird fixation with Egypt among so called "pan Africans", don't you think Hausa which is atleast in the Afro-asiatic stock of languages is closer to this, than Yuroba?
This is true, Hausa speakers do out-number Yoruba (i.e Yoruba comes 2nd in that respect) but Yoruba has has a much more international impact. There are more Yoruba people living away from their homeland and it is spoken (in some form) in Cuba & Brazil. On the other hand, Hausa probably has more vertical (i.e going up north) affinities with the continent.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: ^^It may come as a surprise to you, but most Africans don't stop to contemplate or 'fixate' themselves about ancient Egypt. In academia, of course, when the issue comes up, African participants will defend the Nile Valley's African base, which is the only realistic one.
In any potential agreement on a broad African lingua franca, agreement between African leaders, would be a primary step towards doing so, as they hold the social funds in their respective nations.
But what would be the benefit of any such lingua franca?...
Well, relatively much freer movement of Africans within the continent transcending national boundaries like those drawn by 'colonialists', of course, and subsequent broader socio-political consciousness cohesion among Africans.
hehe
Why would it comes as a suprise to me when I am 100% African myself?
Pan Africans are not Africans but tend to be Afro-diaspora people.
The whole African notion is kinda obsurd to me, as it only comes as a continent with soo many different groups and countries. But let Africa stay as a continent which it is, and not 1 people which it is not!
But those who have been told they come from Africa, and have no idea what area of Africa, are under this notion that Africa is this 1 homogenous mother land of starving, civil war infested Africans!
Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: ^^It may come as a surprise to you, but most Africans don't stop to contemplate or 'fixate' themselves about ancient Egypt. In academia, of course, when the issue comes up, African participants will defend the Nile Valley's African base, which is the only realistic one.
In any potential agreement on a broad African lingua franca, agreement between African leaders, would be a primary step towards doing so, as they hold the social funds in their respective nations.
But what would be the benefit of any such lingua franca?...
Well, relatively much freer movement of Africans within the continent transcending national boundaries like those drawn by 'colonialists', of course, and subsequent broader socio-political consciousness cohesion among Africans.
hehe
Why would it comes as a suprise to me when I am 100% African myself?
Okay then.
quote:Prince_of_punt:
Pan Africans are not Africans but tend to be Afro-diaspora people.
Which would be a sad state of affairs, because this is the sort of mentality that 'Africans' should strive to have.
quote:Prince_of_punt:
The whole African notion is kinda obsurd to me, as it only comes as a continent with soo many different groups and countries. But let Africa stay as a continent which it is, and not 1 people which it is not!
Again, one has to be careful not to presume what the intentions are here. Like I said in the very post that you addressed,...
"...relatively much freer movement of Africans within the continent transcending national boundaries like those drawn by 'colonialists', of course, and subsequent broader socio-political consciousness cohesion among Africans."
^^That's the goal; not be blind to diversity [prevalent everywhere], which would be impossible to do in Africa anyways.
quote:Prince_of_punt:
But those who have been told they come from Africa, and have no idea what area of Africa, are under this notion that Africa is this 1 homogenous mother land of starving, civil war infested Africans!
Purposefully negative and largely corporate-driven Eurocentric mass-media is largely to account for this, to be compounded by the lack of personal motivation of those folks to seek diversification on sources.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
For those here who are still unaware of the political realities in Africa:
quote: THE LANGUAGE PLAN OF ACTION FOR AFRICA
PREAMBLE
We, Heads of State and Government of the Organization of African Unity, meeting in our 22nd Ordinary Session, in Addis Ababa, from 28 to 30 July 1986.
GUIDED
By the Organization of African Unity Charter, By the Pan-African Cultural Manifesto of Algiers (1969), By the Inter-Governmental Conference on Cultural Policies in Africa, organised by UNESCO in Accra (1975), in cooperation with the Organization of African Unity, By the Cultural Charter for Africa, with special reference to Part I Article 1 (a) and (b), Article 2 (a), Part III Article 6.1(a), 2(b) and Part V Articles 17-19, By the Lagos Plan of Action (1980) for the Economic Development of Africa, By the Final Report (27th April, 1982) of UNESCO's Meeting of Experts on the "Definition of a Strategy for Promotion of African Languages": CONVINCED
That language is at the heart of a people's culture and further convinced that, in accordance with the provisions of the Cultural Charter for Africa, the cultural advancement of the African peoples and the acceleration of their economic and social development will not be possible without harnessing in a practical manner indigenous African languages in that advancement and development;
CONVINCED
That, as in other spheres of her national life, Africa needs to assert her independence and identity in the field of language;
AWARE
That, up to the present, the majority of Member States have not taken the necessary practical steps to accord their indigenous languages their rightful official role as provided for by the Cultural Charter for Africa, the Lagos Plan of Action and other related resolutions of the Organization of African Unity;
RECOGNISING
That each sovereign state has the right to devise a language policy that reflects the cultural and socio-economic realities of its country, which is consonant or in close harmony with the needs and aspirations of its people;
CONVINCED
That the adoption and practical promotion of African languages as the official languages of the state is dependent primarily, and as matter of absolute imperative, on the political will and determination of each sovereign state;
CONVINCED
That the adoption and practical promotion of African languages as the official languages of the state are certain to have great advantages over the use of non-indigenous languages in democratising the process of formal education and involvement of the African populations in the political, cultural and economic affairs of their country;
AWARE
That illiteracy is an obstacle to the economic, cultural and social development of African countries and that mass literacy campaigns cannot succeed without the use of indigenous African languages;
AWARE
That, in recognition of the ever-growing interdependence and interaction at all levels of human endeavour and brotherhood of man, communication with the outside world beyond the boundaries of the African continent is inevitable and ought to be provided for or reflected in the language policies to be devised and implemented by each sovereign state;
CONVINCED
That the promotion of African languages, especially those which transcend national frontiers, is a vital factor in the cause of African Unity;
RECOGNISING
That, within Africa itself, the existence side by side in almost all African countries of several languages is a major fact of life and the knowledge that, because of this, multilingualism (i.e. the mastery and use of several languages by individuals for purpose of daily communication) is an equally dominant social feature of life in these countries, should induce Member States to make the promotion of multilingualism in their countries a prime consideration in the evolution of an appropriate language policy;
AGREE
To adopt the Language Plan of Action for Africa, as set out below:
PART I
AIMS, OBJECTIVES AND PRINCIPLES
The aims and objectives of this Plan of Action are as follows:
a. To encourage each and every Member State to have a clearly defined language policy;
b. To ensure that all languages within the boundaries of Member States are recognised and accepted as a source of mutual enrichment;
c. To liberate the African peoples from undue reliance on the utilisation of non-indigenous languages as the dominant, official languages of the state in favour of the gradual take-over of appropriate and carefully selected indigenous African languages in this domain;
d. To ensure that African languages, by appropriate legal provision and practical promotion, assume their rightful role as the means of official communication in the public affairs of each Member State, in replacement of European languages, which have hitherto played this role;
e. To encourage the increased use African languages as vehicles of instruction at all educational levels;
f. To ensure that all the sectors of the political and socio-economic systems of each Member State is mobilised in such a manner that they play their due part in ensuring that the African language(s) prescribed as official language(s) assume their intended role in the shortest time possible;
g. To foster and promote national, regional and continental linguistic unity in Africa, in the context of the multilingualism prevailing in most African countries.
PART II
PRIORITIES
a. Policy Formulation:
Whether at the national, regional or continental levels, the selection and prescription without undue delay of certain viable national, regional or continental indigenous African languages as the official languages to be used for the formal official functions of the State, regional groupings or the OAU.
b. Implementation and Promotion:
The subsequent implementation of the language policy adopted and the incorporation of the official African languages in the political, educational, social, cultural and economic lives of the people.
c. Modernisation:
The modernisation as necessary and by any means required of the indigenous African languages selected and prescribed as official languages.
d. Mobilisation of Resources:
The mobilisation of financial, human and other resources, and all relevant public and private institutions, in the practical promotion of the chosen official languages.
PART Ill
PROGRAMME OF ACTION (METHODS AND MEANS)
In order to fulfil the objectives set out in Part I, the African States solemnly subscribe to the following programme of action:
a. At continental level and as a concrete expression and demonstration of the OAU's seriousness of purpose, the adoption without undue delay by the Organization of African Unity and the regional associations, organizations or institutions affiliated to it of viable indigenous African languages as working languages;
b. To encourage regional associations, organizations or institutions already accorded or those applying for observer status to the OAU to adopt indigenous African languages as their working languages;
c. At regional level, the adoption by regional groupings of viable, regional indigenous African languages as official or working languages;
d. At national level, the imperative need for each OAU Member State to consider it necessary and primary that it formulates with the minimum of delay a language policy that places an indigenous African language or language spoken and in active use by its peoples at the centre of its socio-economic development;
e. In order to fulfil the objectives in (d), the need by each Member State to establish a national language council, where none exists, or to strengthen it, where one already exists, as a national sounding board for the formulation of an appropriate national language policy;
f. The absolute necessity that each Member State, as a matter of supreme practical importance, follows up the formulation of an appropriate national language policy with an adequate and sustained allocation of the necessary financial and material resources, to ensure that the language or languages prescribed as official language(s) achieve(s) a level of modernisation that meets the needs of administering a modern State;
g. In recognition of the negative estimation in which indigenous African languages are generally held in Africa, by the general public, the necessity for each Member State, as part of its national programme of promoting those African languages duly prescribed as official languages, to mount a sustained campaign of educating or re-educating the national population about the inherent or potential practical utility of African languages to counter the present widespread negative attitudes in Africa towards these languages;
h. In recognition that the formal national education system plays a key role in the practical use of any language, the need for each Member State to ensure that all the sectors (i.e. primary, secondary and tertiary) of the national education system, are pressed as appropriate in the service of the practical promotion of the indigenous language(s) selected and prescribed as (an) official language(s);
i. Aware that African universities, research institutes and other institutions concerned with the study and promotion of African languages have a unique role to play in strengthening the role these languages play in the daily lives of the African peoples, the need for these institutions to strike a proper balance in future between the scientific study of the African languages and their actual use and practical promotion
j. In connection with (i) above, the need for each Member State to render its national universities and other research and related institutions a primary instrument for the practical promotion of African languages, as regards such critical promotional activities, as the compilation of technical and general dictionaries, the writing of textbooks on useful subjects, the training of teachers of language, translators, interpreters, broadcasters and journalists, the production of useful books and other types of literature, relevant to the lives of contemporary Africans and the up-dating of vocabulary in African languages;
k. In recognition of the fact that to impart formal or other types of knowledge, the vehicle of instruction or communication should be a language familiar to the learner, the absolute necessity that each Member State should, as an essential part of its educational policy, prescribe as media or vehicles of instruction those indigenous African languages, that best and most effectively facilitate the learning process;
l. In recognition of the singularly strategic role widespread literacy among the national population plays, in the socio-economic development of a country, and recognising further that literacy education will be greatly facilitated and speeded up, if languages familiar to the national population are employed, the advisability of using indigenous African languages as media of instruction in national literacy campaigns mounted by Member States.
Text source: Annexure 2 of "Towards a National Language Plan for South Africa: Final Report of the Language Plan Task Group," 8 August 1996. http://www.dac.gov.za/reports/langtag_report/langtag_report.htm . Thanks to Profs. Bob Herbert and Russell Kaschula for their help in locating a source for the document.
quote: Languages of the African Union From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Life in the African Union
Citizenship Culture Demographics Economy Education Enlargement Foreign relations Geography History Languages Military Politics Statistics
The languages of the African Union (AU) are languages used by citizens within the member states of the AU. The Union has defined all languages of Africa as official, and currently uses Arabic, English, French, and Portuguese as its working languages, due to the Arab conquest of North Africa and colonization making the languages of Europe linguas franca in various parts of Africa.
Supplemental protocols have made Swahili another working language. In 2001, the AU created the African Academy of Languages (ACALAN) to harmonize the various languages across the continent and safeguard any that are on the verge of becoming extinct. To that end, the AU declared 2006 the Year of African Languages[1][2].
all that is required now is to make the intellectual leap to either Kiswahili or the Mdu Ntr becoming the lingua franca...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
And to the most politically immature ones here who like to harp on the heterogenenous nature of Africa as a reason NOT to adopt a common African language; if one were to follow this as a logical argument then there would be NO political states in Africa, save perhaps Somalia. But then, some of us here would have to have an entire course in African political development...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hausa won't work because of southern Nigerian's enmity with the Hausa group and others of the north. National chauvinism will prevent other African nations from adopting Hausa.
KiSwahili was a choice that Black Americans conscious of their Afrikan heritage decided to use because it bears no tribal/clan baggage.
But perhaps a new variant of Rn Mdw other than Coptic would best fit a classic revival of the African continent and the African people.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Pan-Africanism is a very real, very active political process in the African world. The choice of a common, unifying language for this nation is hardly a silly notion...
Evergreen Writes:
For me, above and beyond a unifying language is a unifying sense of self-awareness. All languages derive from a single African source. As a people we need to be educated on this fact. Speaking a common language goes much deeper than using a common tongue. The root of a common language is awareness of self and manifestation of this awareness. When we TRULY speak a unifying language one brotha will speak in the French tongue and another will speak in the Arabic tongue, yet the message will still be consistant and focused on freedom for our people.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Hausa won't work because of southern Nigerian's enmity with the Hausa group and others of the north. National chauvinism will prevent other African nations from adopting Hausa.
KiSwahili was a choice that Black Americans conscious of their Afrikan heritage decided to use because it bears no tribal/clan baggage.
But perhaps a new variant of Rn Mdw other than Coptic would best fit a classic revival of the African continent and the African people.
Yes, however, > the Coptic languages are only a reference source for the revival of the Mdu Ntr (Mdu r n Km.t); other languages, such as Beja, could very well provide a more precise meaning and pronounciation to certain words in the Mdu Ntr, being less corrupted by colonial influences and domination.
> the idea, also, is to reduce the stature of ALL colonial languages (Arabic, Portuguese, French, English) within African society. This would be one of the tasks of the Academy...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
If I can put in my humble opinion. For Africa the most practical thing would be to promote Kiswahili is a continental language. It is already spoken by over 100 millions Africas and has a very developed modern vocabulary. I agree that the Ancient Egyptian language should be revitalized but not as a lingua franca. It should be brought back as a schlorly language taught from high school up to the Phd level. From the unique ideas of tribal languages Kiswahili will grow richer and richer on the common level, and from Ancient Egyptian language Kiswahili will grow richer on the philosopical/intellectually level. I think this is the best combination, Kiswahili for the people, Ancient Egyptian for a classical language(which I believe is its rightful place being the rich ancient language it is).
On the issue of Hausa, it can never be a lingua france simply because it is a tribal language, though it is spoken in many countries, mostly all those who speak it are Hausas in those diffferent countries, the Hausas are not really liked by non-hausa, and plus the obvious Islamic identity just takes it over the top. If you know anything about west africa you know Hausa becoming a lingua franca is a laughable proposal. (so as any other west african tribal language for that matter)
Posts: 6 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^As far as I'm aware of, Hausa already is a lingua franca in West Africa and has been for quite some time due to expansions and trading of Hausa peoples.
As for Kiswahili, that is also widely spoken but I think some would have a problem with it being the official pan-African language, especially considering that it is a 'Bantu' language and judging by the posts made in this board, there are definitely some African peoples who have issues with Bantus.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^somali traders allready speak kiswahili as their second language
this is one of the reasons why they blend in so easily in Arusha and Nairobi
i'm suprised how serious people take the comments of teenagers on a internet forum who have never been to any part of africa but simply are speaking out of ignorance
Posts: 275 | From: .. | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ahmosi: If I can put in my humble opinion. For Africa the most practical thing would be to promote Kiswahili is a continental language. It is already spoken by over 100 millions Africas and has a very developed modern vocabulary. I agree that the Ancient Egyptian language should be revitalized but not as a lingua franca. It should be brought back as a schlorly language taught from high school up to the Phd level. From the unique ideas of tribal languages Kiswahili will grow richer and richer on the common level, and from Ancient Egyptian language Kiswahili will grow richer on the philosopical/intellectually level. I think this is the best combination, Kiswahili for the people, Ancient Egyptian for a classical language(which I believe is its rightful place being the rich ancient language it is).
On the issue of Hausa, it can never be a lingua france simply because it is a tribal language, though it is spoken in many countries, mostly all those who speak it are Hausas in those diffferent countries, the Hausas are not really liked by non-hausa, and plus the obvious Islamic identity just takes it over the top. If you know anything about west africa you know Hausa becoming a lingua franca is a laughable proposal. (so as any other west african tribal language for that matter)
Ahmosi, You have made some very precise and extremely useful points to the subject matter! No need to be humble, especially when you know what you're talking about. Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
We should also keep in mind the facility which Africans (as well as everyone else in the world except Americans) have with different languages:
>>Every African from the continent that I have met, and we're talking plenty speaks at least two different languages; the colonial language and their own ethnic language; usually the ones I have met were college educated and spoke several other African languages as well.
> there was this one other personal example I can describe; I once commuted to work from Oakland to Berkeley and the majority of the passengers were teenagers going to Berkeley High. This one young brother caught the bus at the same stop that I did, and we occasionally would chat. One day when we got on the bus a buddy of his got on later, and lo and behold they began to start talking to each other in Amharic! Point here is that when he talked with me in English, there was not a trace of an accent in his voice and so I had assumed that he was from East Oakland and not from East Africa!
The general point then is we're talking about institutionalizing something which is very simple to Continental Africans...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^As far as I'm aware of, Hausa already is a lingua franca in West Africa and has been for quite some time due to expansions and trading of Hausa peoples.
As for Kiswahili, that is also widely spoken but I think some would have a problem with it being the official pan-African language, especially considering that it is a 'Bantu' language and judging by the posts made in this board, there are definitely some African peoples who have issues with Bantus.
Excellent points, Djehuti, however, Keep in mind that the implementation of the selection of a Pan-African language will be carried out at the university level by competent African scholars, so don't allow the idiots who migrate here, throw you off... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good stuff. I agree with Wally: we need to have a lingua franca in Africa, and it ought to be Mdu Netcher. No other language, most probably, could do it like Mdu Netcher. What we would need, however, is the support of these African governments. If they can catch the vision for it, it would do wonders for Africa! If the governments support this, then within a few generations there would be a unity between Africans on a MUCH wider scale. The time is now. African scholars from West, East, South, and North need to get to work on this fast! If even half of the African countries are "down", then it will force the international community to recognize what they are doing. And eventually the rest of the African countries will jump on board. Salaam
P.S.-Hausa is the lingua franca of West Africa. From what I have heard, it gives you access to at least 25 countries..........I heard that it was more widely spoken then Swahili.........a friend from Ghana(Asante,.....not Hausa) told me that. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
We should also make clear the distinctions between Hausa and Kiswahili; > Hausa (a so-called "Afro-Asiatic" language) has become the lingua franca of West Africa do to Hausa imperialism (largely and ironically fostered by the Fulani people). The Great Hausa kingdoms actually imposed this language in the region by the fact of the dominance of the Hausa-Fulani kingdoms...
> Kiswahili (a so-called "Bantu" language) was not an imperial language, but primarily a commercial language that isn't aligned with any ethnic group and would therefore a useful choice
Neither of these languages provides the same level of optimum choice as the Mdu Ntr...
(PS: Mdu Ntr = Moudu Ntr (Coptic) the N is a "nasal" N Mdu Ntr = Moudu Ntchr / Emdu Ntchr / etc in Pharaonic Egyptian
Which illustrates the need for the Academy...)
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^As far as I'm aware of, Hausa already is a lingua franca in West Africa and has been for quite some time due to expansions and trading of Hausa peoples.
As for Kiswahili, that is also widely spoken but I think some would have a problem with it being the official pan-African language, especially considering that it is a 'Bantu' language and judging by the posts made in this board, there are definitely some African peoples who have issues with Bantus.
Why would any 1 have problems with Kiswahili. Personally I think that its a great language and the closest thing to establishing trans border African language!
Besides Kiswahili has aspects of Semitic and Cushetic!
Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Yes, but that is because most of Europe was under Roman i.e. Latin speaking domination.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic