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Originally posted by Thought2:
History Channel
Sunday, January 2 @ 8pm ET/PT

One of history's greatest military leaders, at age nine Hannibal accompanied his father Hamilcar Barca on the Carthaginian expedition to conquer Spain. Before embarking, the boy vowed eternal hatred for Rome, his people's bitter rival. Twenty years later, in 218 BC, he left New Carthage (now Cartagena, Spain) to wage war on "The Eternal City" with an army of about 40,000, including cavalry and elephants. After crossing the Pyrénées and Rhône River, he traversed the Alps while beset by snowstorms, landslides, and hostile mountain tribes. This 2-hour special brings to life the story of the Carthaginian general who struck fear in all Roman hearts and wreaked havoc with his masterful military tactics, bringing the mighty Roman Republic to the brink of ruin. Archaeologists, historians, and military experts guide us through ancient Carthage and give insight into his military strategy up to defeat at Zama in 203 BC.

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Thought Writes:

All of the Carthaginians seem to be portrayed by non-Africans.

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

All of the Carthaginians seem to be portrayed by non-Africans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

All of the Carthaginians seem to be portrayed by non-Africans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
History Channel
Sunday, January 2 @ 8pm ET/PT

One of history's greatest military leaders, at age nine Hannibal accompanied his father Hamilcar Barca on the Carthaginian expedition to conquer Spain. Before embarking, the boy vowed eternal hatred for Rome, his people's bitter rival. Twenty years later, in 218 BC, he left New Carthage (now Cartagena, Spain) to wage war on "The Eternal City" with an army of about 40,000, including cavalry and elephants. After crossing the Pyrénées and Rhône River, he traversed the Alps while beset by snowstorms, landslides, and hostile mountain tribes. This 2-hour special brings to life the story of the Carthaginian general who struck fear in all Roman hearts and wreaked havoc with his masterful military tactics, bringing the mighty Roman Republic to the brink of ruin. Archaeologists, historians, and military experts guide us through ancient Carthage and give insight into his military strategy up to defeat at Zama in 203 BC.

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Originally posted in another thread "All about the Nubian"
HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL..
I have another question.

Basil Davidson mentioned a possible connect with the people of Meroe and the Hindus. He stated that the people of Meroe had India-type gods with multiple hands and legs. Are any of you familiar with this??

Also, Davidson mentioned that the people of Meroe might of had a training center for the training/domestication of the African elephant. He further concluded that Hannible of North africa was somehow connected to Meroe, and that the elephants used by Hannibal in his conquest came from there. Any of you familiar with this??????

If anyone can, please expand on these notions.

Thanks

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
I'm shocked.

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Funny, as I watch, I’m noticing that the narrator is careful to say that Hannibal’s army was made up of Africans, Spaniards, Celts, and southern Italians... This explains the white looking members of his army, but at the same time, I see what looks like black looking people with braids underneath their helmet, but this view is barely glancing!! I mean, you do not see any of these soldiers close up or for any periods of time.. I’m beginning to think that my mind is playing tricks on me.

Also, all the authorities speaking on the program are the European types....therein lies the problem(s).

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

All of the Carthaginians seem to be portrayed by non-Africans.

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Originally posted by anacalypsis:
He further concluded that Hannible of North africa was somehow connected to Meroe, and that the elephants used by Hannibal in his conquest came from there. Any of you familiar with this??????

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Thought Writes:

The Garamantes were the middle men between Meroe and Carthage, what do we know of the use of elephants for war in Garama?

Hannibal's family lineage was probably of the elite class,and traced his origins to Tyre or Sidon in Lebanon.

Northwestern Africa had a smaller ''black'' population than Northeastern Africa,but it still existed. Most of these people lived on the fringe of the Sahara desert.

“Most men living in the area surronding Carthage before the Phoenicians arrived should probably have carried variations of the M96 (haplogroup E), which is the aboriginal type in North Africa and West Africa.”

“They (Phoenicians) left only a small impact in North Africa…..No more that 20% of the men we sampled had Y Chromsomes that originated in the Middle East. Most carried the aboriginal North African M96 pattern.”

Thought Writes:

If we exclude the “Arab Conquest” specific J-M267 “Middle Eastern” chromosomes it would be much less than 20%!!!!!

{Northwestern Africa had a smaller ''black'' population than Northeastern Africa,but it still existed. Most of these people lived on the fringe of the Sahara desert.}

Sight Writes:

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the east...lay the birth land of their (Carthaginians) ancestors the Phoenician Semites, the Red Land of most ancient days...out of the sea the folk of the Red Lands had...
--Hannibal by Harold Lamb, p33

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Confused as he is, Mr. Lamb at least knew what the "Red Lands" meant...

Thought Posts:

Smithsonian “Human: The Definitive Visual Guide”
2004
Edited by R. Winston and D. Wilson

Middle East and North Africa
Page 401

“The FIRST arrivals came from the south, from Sub-Saharan Africa. They established communities in the fertile strip along the North African coast and in the great Saharan desert it fringed. The fertility of the land led to settlement - the area has some of the world’s OLDEST continuosly inhabited cities, from Luxor in Egypt to Jericho on the West Bank.”

{Hannibal's family lineage was probably of the elite class,and traced his origins to Tyre or Sidon in Lebanon.}

Thought Posts:

National Geographic Magazine
October 2004
Who Were The Phoenicians
Rick Gore

“But at the end of the fifth century B.C…..The residents by then belonged to a NEW society, as distinct from its Phoenician founders as North American’s are today from their 17th-century colonial ancestors.”

Thought Writes:

I would say that the Carthaginians were even MORE distinct from the Phoenicians than modern Americans are from the British because the Phoenicians would have been a minority among the indigenous African majority that they mixed with upon arrival. By the time period of Hannibal, the Carthaginians were primarily of an indigenous African background.

Thought Posts:

National Geographic Magazine
October 2004
Who Were The Phoenicians
Rick Gore

“Most men living in the area surronding Carthage before the Phoenicians arrived should probably have carried variations of the M96 (haplogroup E), which is the aboriginal type in North Africa and West Africa.”

“They (Phoenicians) left only a small impact in North Africa…..No more that 20% of the men we sampled had Y Chromsomes that originated in the Middle East. Most carried the aboriginal North African M96 pattern.”

Thought Writes:

If we exclude the “Arab Conquest” specific J-M267 “Middle Eastern” chromosomes it would be much less than 20%!!!!!

{Northwestern Africa had a smaller ''black'' population than Northeastern Africa,but it still existed. Most of these people lived on the fringe of the Sahara desert.}

Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Wally:
only thing relevant to Egyptology I could find regarding Hannibal...

"the east...lay the birth land of their (Carthaginians) ancestors the Phoenician Semites, the Red Land of most ancient days...out of the sea the folk of the Red Lands had..."
--Hannibal by Harold Lamb, p33
Confused as he is, Mr. Lamb at least knew what the "Red Lands" meant...

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It's no excuse for total confusion here, I think...?

--Diop says the Phoenicians were "cousins" of the Egyptians. Why do you suppose he said that?
--The black Afar peoples of Carthage are supposed to be the etymology for the name "Africa" (which I doubt)
--And if the Phoenicians were Semitic, it's probably like the Amhara of Ethiopia being Semitic.

This is old ground...

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Originally posted by ausar:
Actually, the first inhabitants for Carthage were people called Afers. These people were described as being ''black'' by the likes of Virgil in his poem entitled Morteum. The Sahara desert up to the Atlas mountains always had and still has a black population. Much of the military units for the Numidians were pulled from the Garamantes in the Sahara region.

Hannibal's family lineage was probably of the elite class,and traced his origins to Tyre or Sidon in Lebanon.

Northwestern Africa had a smaller ''black'' population than Northeastern Africa,but it still existed. Most of these people lived on the fringe of the Sahara desert.

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The Afer or Afrigha tribe whom the Phoenicians met in the vicinity of
what was to become Carthage are where our word Africa originates.

Well, the Numidians (in what's presently the northernmost areas of
western Libya, Tunisia, & eastern Algeria) were probably not very
dark but the ancient north Meds did consider all the south Med
Imazighen peoples to be coloured, albeit the lightest of the
coloured peoples of their known world.

As late as the 6th century CE north Meds were calling Mauritanii
(the peoples west of the Numidii in what today is known as the
north parts of western Algeria & Morocco) blacks. Procopius' History
3.13.29 reports:

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And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.

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Mediterranean North Africa once had its own specific phenotype
of blacks who differed from other blacks the same way say blacks
differ from region to region on the continent and across the Indian
Ocean and on into the Pacific.

Besides the Maurs, other ancient dark North Africans were the Nigritae,
the MelanoGaetuli, and the Western Aethiopians. LeukoAithiops are
also mentioned. Presumably, they resembled Aethiopians in some way
either physically, culturally, or both, except for their white colour. The
Pharusii were adjacent to the Western Aithiops and the Nigritae and
may have shared their complexion. Then there were the Troglodyte
Aethiopians in the vicinity of the Garamantes, some of whom were
pitch black.

My guess would be that those black Saharans who don't really resemble
west, central, or east Africans are the modern descendents of the old
black North Africans. Of course, since prehistory there's been an influx
of east Africans into the Sahara greatly influencing the phenotype. The
same is true for west African Sahelians who are even thought to originate
in the Sahara to some degree.

.

The Proto-Berbers
By J. Desanges

“In about -7000 there appeared men of fairly tall stature, of Mediterranean race but not devoid of Negroid characteristics. They are known as Capstans…”

The Proto-Berbers
By J. Desanges

“In about -7000 there appeared men of fairly tall stature, of Mediterranean race but not devoid of Negroid characteristics. They are known as Capsians…”

“In the Punic burial grounds, Negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly NOT Nilotics.”

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
the reason he gave was that his troops needed to be rested. Its hard to know what was going on deep down with him at the time. As you may have read many of his generals urged him to strike while Rome was hurt. Would he have taken Rome? Probably if he had moved quickly but Rome was very resiliant and they always seemed to bounce back quickly. I do think that Hannibal was the last person who had a chance to defeat them. In terms of Nubian troops, they seemd to pop up everywhere. A good history of the Nubian military machine that is understandable by the average reader would be a great project.

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IF YOU LOOK at roman history later rome was defeated a number of times.i think you mean the last chance to conqure them,but we all know that the german tribes did that in the 400's ad.
THE NUBIAN kush armies and later nubian armies defeated rome many times.let's not forget that nubia raided egypt alot and egypt was part of rome.