posted
Certainly! They are well within the range of appearance of South or Central Egyptians. In fact they would fit in Sudan without notice also.
Posts: 167 | From: usa | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
The Luxor-Aswan areas and some parts of Middle Egypt. Most people past Asyut tend to look alot like many of these people. In areas like Minya to Asyut you have more Medium brown people. Some people in Middle Egypt are even sometimes southern European looking,and also Berber looking. No suprise because post pharaonic era many of these areas around Minya,Fayoum,and Asyut have had people who settled here from diverse backgrouns ranging from Libyan tribes to Greek mercenaries to even Syrians.
Remeber when people talk about Upper Egypt that generally divided even Upper Egypt into Near Said[Middle Egypt] to Deep Said[everything past Sohag to Aswan]
Here is an observation from Frank J Yurco about Middle Egyptians:
In the Nile Valley you can see the full range, if you travel southward from Egypt to Sudan, where in the Shilluk, Dinka, and Nuer, you'd find the very blackest Africans. Many, though display high bridged noses, and some, wavy hair. In Ethiopia, the population gets lighter complexioned, and many look very much like the average Middle Egyptian. In Egypt too, the people range from light complexioned up north to very dark around Aswan, where the population gradually shifts to Nubian.
Sincerely, Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
-- Frank Joseph Yurco fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
This is my understanding of what Somalians look like. Some of the pictures presented in this thread, however, are probably of people that are not indigenous to Africa.
There really was a significant amount of migration from Yemen and even Persia into the Horn. Still, it was the Cushites that dominated and ruled.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The Luxor-Aswan areas and some parts of Middle Egypt. Most people past Asyut tend to look alot like many of these people. In areas like Minya to Asyut you have more Medium brown people. Some people in Middle Egypt are even sometimes southern European looking,and also Berber looking. No suprise because post pharaonic era many of these areas around Minya,Fayoum,and Asyut have had people who settled here from diverse backgrouns ranging from Libyan tribes to Greek mercenaries to even Syrians.
Remeber when people talk about Upper Egypt that generally divided even Upper Egypt into Near Said[Middle Egypt] to Deep Said[everything past Sohag to Aswan]
Here is an observation from Frank J Yurco about Middle Egyptians:
In the Nile Valley you can see the full range, if you travel southward from Egypt to Sudan, where in the Shilluk, Dinka, and Nuer, you'd find the very blackest Africans. Many, though display high bridged noses, and some, wavy hair. In Ethiopia, the population gets lighter complexioned, and many look very much like the average Middle Egyptian. In Egypt too, the people range from light complexioned up north to very dark around Aswan, where the population gradually shifts to Nubian.
Sincerely, Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
-- Frank Joseph Yurco fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu
I still don't think south Egypians look like Ethiopians or Somalis. They look different They're shorter, lighter, They've blockier heads. Sometimes even have more kinkier hair.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: however, are probably of people that are not indigenous to Africa. There really was a significant amount of migration from Yemen and even Persia into the Horn. Still, it was the Cushites that dominated and ruled.
Huh??, These are all Somalis from west-Somalia (Somaliland)...I don't see anything middle eeastern about them.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: I thought it was already clarified that these people are the most pure of the Cushites (Borana): Is this not likely the parent group of the Somalis, Ethiopians, "Cushitic speakers"?
I think Cushites were all the same people once like one ethnic group. But then split up and went all over the horn of Africa. Don't think they came from these boranas. The boranas are just Cushites who went south.
[This message has been edited by leba (edited 21 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by leba: Because people like ''walklikeanegyptian'' always says Ethiopians and Somalis look like south Egyptians, but I don't think so.
Somalis don't look like Amharas or Tigre people either..why do you dump them with all Ethiopians?...we can go further than Egypt. But there is no point except for a guy who is so insecure like you and need to post stupid statements on Egyptsearch. Go back to school, late registration is allowed. You're so overwhelmed by your own insecurity. It take pity on you. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 21 September 2005).]
posted
these Somalis are the perfect example, i think, of how they resemble Upper Egyptians:
ok, here's a pic of a Somali family, then an Egyptian family. can you honestly say that if asked, you'd be able to say which ones were Somali and which were Egyptian? i wouldn't. if 10 somalis and 10 egyptians (from luxor south) were placed in a line all mixed up, it'd be hard to say which were egyptians.
somali family
egyptian kids
[This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 21 September 2005).]
[This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 21 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by osirion: I thought it was already clarified that these people are the most pure of the Cushites (Borana):
Is this not likely the parent group of the Somalis, Ethiopians, "Cushitic speakers"?
We genotyped a total of 389 males from Somalia, Sub-Saharan Western Africa, Turkey, and Iraq by a PCR based assay with co-amplification of 25 DNA-fragments and detection of 35 Y chromosome biallelic markers with the single base primer extension technique. A total of 19 different haplogroups were identified. In Somalis, 14 haplogroups were identified. The haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) was found in 77.2 % of the male Somali population, in 6.3 % of Iraqi males and in 1.7 % of male Turks whereas E3b1* was not found in Sub-Saharan Western African males. The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. Furthermore, the results are in agreement with a gene flow from Eastern to Northern Africa from a homeland in Somalia. In Somalis, 13.4 % of the males carried J or K haplogroups, which are found relatively frequent in e.g. Iraqis, Turks, and other Arab and Asian populations. This might reflects the historical findings of foreign trading posts at the Somali Gulf of Aden from the 7th century. The distribution of haplogroups will be compared to those in Western African population.
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: Somalis don't look like Amharas or Tigre people either..why do you dump them with all Ethiopians?...we can go further than Egypt. But there is no point except for a guy who is so insecure like you and need to post stupid statements on Egyptsearch. Go back to school, late registration is allowed. You're so overwhelmed by your own insecurity. It take pity on you. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 21 September 2005).]
"Anyway he's from the North, who cares abouth Northern Somalis: Gadaboursis, Issaqhs, Issas, Warsengeli, Dolbahante...who think they are all Yemenis, I mean Issaqs look like Amharas and they pretend to be pure Somalis, good joke...say hello to your Yemeni friends... Relaxx"
posted
Which part of Egypt are these kids from? Casual observation, would tell us that they look like Nubians more than Egyptians, with an small infusion of Sudanic admixture.
[This message has been edited by Giza-Rider (edited 21 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: We genotyped a total of 389 males from Somalia, Sub-Saharan Western Africa, Turkey, and Iraq by a PCR based assay with co-amplification of 25 DNA-fragments and detection of 35 Y chromosome biallelic markers with the single base primer extension technique. A total of 19 different haplogroups were identified. In Somalis, 14 haplogroups were identified. The haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) was found in 77.2 % of the male Somali population, in 6.3 % of Iraqi males and in 1.7 % of male Turks whereas E3b1* was not found in Sub-Saharan Western African males. The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. Furthermore, the results are in agreement with a gene flow from Eastern to Northern Africa from a homeland in Somalia. In Somalis, 13.4 % of the males carried J or K haplogroups, which are found relatively frequent in e.g. Iraqis, Turks, and other Arab and Asian populations. This might reflects the historical findings of foreign trading posts at the Somali Gulf of Aden from the 7th century. The distribution of haplogroups will be compared to those in Western African population.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: these Somalis are the perfect example, i think, of how they resemble Upper Egyptians:
ok, here's a pic of a Somali family, then an Egyptian family. can you honestly say that if asked, you'd be able to say which ones were Somali and which were Egyptian? i wouldn't. if 10 somalis and 10 egyptians (from luxor south) were placed in a line all mixed up, it'd be hard to say which were egyptians.
somali family
egyptian kids
[This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 21 September 2005).]
[This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 21 September 2005).]
So from this picture of Egyptian kids I see that its part of your home page. So which home page is actually yours?
Giza, those kids are not Nubians and probably have next to no Nubian admixture. I have to explain to northern Egyptians many times that Nubians don't intermarry with Saidi people.
Most people past Asyut look like those people. Particularly in the Luxor-Aswan area.
Northern and Middle Egyptians have recent bedouin and Berber admixture. Even the lower classes like the Fellahin have this mixture because most of the nomadic Bedouin tribes were settled amongst the fellahin and took up cultivating.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Interesting, according to this research Somalians only have 51% where as the Borana have 71.2%. http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf
I don't really like these picture spam threads so no comment on that, however, please be careful that you understand the relationship between the different haplotypes and how they are cited in these studies.
In the study above - the Somali have 52+% E3b1 of which 48% is E3b1 gamma, plus and additional 17% E3b.
The Borana have 71+% E3b1 all of which is E3b1 gamma. Plus they have an additiona 14+% E3b.
I'm not going to explain again the differences between E3b, E3b1 and E3b1 gamma because that information has been repeated many times on this website and by several knowledgeable posters.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: did the pics i post or the pics giza rider posted look not like most egyptians?
i care little for pics...
but i really have little or no idea of the "sterotypical" egyptian.. previously mines was the belief they were if not the same similar looking to the arabs of yemen and southern arabia....but thats changed...
what i do know..... is that pheno...are diverse in egypyt considering its past and contemp history....
yet somalis....all share similar if not ident phenos.... leba thats why ppl can easily ident a somali...and have the "stereo" view of them that are typical among them...
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I don't really like these picture spam threads so no comment on that, however, please be careful that you understand the relationship between the different haplotypes and how they are cited in these studies.
In the study above - the Somali have 52+% E3b1 of which 48% is E3b1 gamma, plus and additional 17% E3b.
The Borana have 71+% E3b1 all of which is E3b1 gamma. Plus they have an additiona 14+% E3b.
I'm not going to explain again the differences between E3b, E3b1 and E3b1 gamma because that information has been repeated many times on this website and by several knowledgeable posters.
Your point is Rasol? How does that change the fact that Borana's actually have a higher frequency than Somalians? I know I am going to pay with some sort of personal insult for asking a question but I am clueless to your point. My point is that Somalians are not as pure Cushitic as the Boranas primarily because Somalians lived in the Red Sea trade belt. Bascially, some pictures of Somalians are of individuals that are not Cushites or are of mixed ancestry.
However, I think this picture shows what Somalian Cushites look like well enough:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Your point is Rasol? How does that change the fact that Borana's actually have a higher frequency than Somalians? I know I am going to pay with some sort of personal insult for asking a question but I am clueless to your point. My point is that Somalians are not as pure Cushitic as the Boranas primarily because Somalians lived in the Red Sea trade belt. Bascially, some pictures of Somalians are of individuals that are not Cushites or are of mixed ancestry.
However, I think this picture shows what Somalian Cushites look like well enough:
don't c ur point...since somalis and borana (oromo) all have a common origin.....and live among each other (borana) ethnic somalis (all clans) in the south.. and dont differ pheno...
but the funny thing is ur analoges of admixture, slave trade, and ruling kingdonms..
while the borana/oromos, --- were under all three categories... by the amhara and tigrey...
while the borana of northern and southern ethiop and kenya live adjacent with other non cushite groups and similarily have mingled
ur a funny charcter ....dont make me die of laughter...lol
posted
The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. Furthermore, the results are in agreement with a gene flow from Eastern to Northern Africa from a homeland in Somalia." - Sanchez et al. Posts: 321 | From: t.o | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
The point was to politely correct your information. Unfortunately, you reacted emtionally to this. Another reason why I avoid these threads...
quote: How does that change the fact that Borana's actually have a higher frequency than Somalians?
I didn't say it did. Indeed, the Borana have the highest frequency of E3b lineages on that chart. I simply corrected your misinformation, in terms of specifics and the incorrect manner in which you read the chart. Instead of thanking me...you get defensive. There's no need for that.
quote:I know I am going to pay with some sort of personal insult for asking a question but I am clueless to your point.
I have never insulted you. The only way you can become 'clued in' to the point is to understand the differences between the haplotypes and their relationships.
The way in which you read the chart, and the conclusions that you derive from it, indicates that more understanding is necessary.
I'm not criticising you for not knowing more, I am trying to encourage to learn more.
Understand the difference?
quote: My point is that Somalians are not as pure Cushitic as the Boranas primarily because Somalians lived in the Red Sea trade belt.
This is another misnomer and non-sequitor.
It's a misnomer because cushite is principally a language group, and your argument...whatever it is, needs to be rooted in among other things, the origins of cushite languages.
It's a non-sequitur because it has nothing to do with your incorrect reading of the amounts of E3b in the genetic chart you cited.
I'm not interested here in your opinion of the relative Arab or other admixtures in the different groups - you may be completely correct on whatever you think - about that.
I only want you to understand genetics a little better before citing the studies.
If I didn't respect your intellect, if I thought you were unable to understand this material....I would have just ignored the inaccurate information altogether.
As an aside: The only reason I bother to dis-Evil-Euro-daily is because too many people don't know good information from bad.
So, as stupid as he is, they fall right into his trap.
It's not personal. I simply dislike misinformation, which begats more misinformation.
My constructive suggestion is to research the relationship between
E3b*M35. E3b1 and E3b1 gamma.
When you are comfortable with this information, then you will understand why I bothered to correct you. It was/is not meant as an attempt to embarrass.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 21 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by mali: don't c ur point...since somalis and borana (oromo) all have a common origin.....and live among each other (borana) ethnic somalis (all clans) in the south.. and dont differ pheno...
but the funny thing is ur analoges of admixture, slave trade, and ruling kingdonms..
while the borana/oromos, --- were under all three categories... by the amhara and tigrey...
while the borana of northern and southern ethiop and kenya live adjacent with other non cushite groups and similarily have mingled
ur a funny charcter ....dont make me die of laughter...lol
You are not that ignorant, you know quite well that not all Somalis are Cushitic. There are Bantu and Yemeni people in Somalia.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: You are not that ignorant, you know quite well that not all Somalis are Cushitic. There are Bantu and Yemeni people in Somalia.
which makes up a max of 15% of somalia...and are natinals not ethnic..... and nor rep historic or modern pops
As in N.america... Whites are not Ethnic American and are not indigenous to N Or S.America as too are blacks and do not represent historic pops but do rep majority of modern pops..
quote:Originally posted by osirion: You are not that ignorant, you know quite well that not all Somalis are Cushitic. There are Bantu and Yemeni people in Somalia.
From my understanding both languages are non-linguistic locals nor the semtic (arabic) or bantu (swahili) are not classed as cushtic.
Anyways i really dont see ur target on the word CUSHTIC since its primarily a language sect and is realtivly related to other indig afro languages...
likely language my not bare ahistoric or lineage as seen around the world.
where the somali language bares close proximiety to the omotic indig of chad in central africa.
onfusion on ur post... u make reference to language and then haplotype....
???
osir ...it would be helpful if u stick to 1 before relating the other if ther is a relation between them!
posted
Like the term Semitic, Cushitic is often used interchangeably as a ethnic group or language phylum. It is more appropriately a language phylum.
The way I was using the term was as a ethnic group. Its actual origin is from Jewish mythology of the flood. Cush was the son of Ham. Therefore people that are descendants of Cush are Cushitic. However, the term Cushite is primarily a linguistic designation in anthropology. Sorry, I am a Jew not an anthropologist.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: You are not that ignorant, you know quite well that not all Somalis are Cushitic. There are Bantu and Yemeni people in Somalia.
Osiros I think you need to learn who is Somali and who is not before you use Bantu and Yemenis as example of Somalis...
Somali 85%, Bantu and other non-Somali 15% (including Arabs 30,000)
Osiros agree with you Somalis are not pure of one race or nation, because no one in the world can be pure. Everyone has some type of admixture whether it was 100 or 1000 or 100000 or 1million years,Somalis are no different they have admixture from both Asia and rest of Africa, whether these admixture are recent or Ancient god only knows...
But that said would you say Sanchez is liar for suggesting that E3b1 originated among Somali males since the highest frequency of E3b1 was observed among Somali males tested..
The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. Furthermore, the results are in agreement with a gene flow from Eastern to Northern Africa from a homeland in Somalia." - Sanchez et al.
[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 21 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: Osiros I think you need to learn who is Somali and who is not before you use Bantu and Yemenis as example of Somalis...
Somali 85%, Bantu and other non-Somali 15% (including Arabs 30,000)
Osiros agree with you Somalis are not pure of one race or nation, because no one in the world can be pure. Everyone has some type of admixture whether it was 100 or 1000 or 100000 or 1million years,Somalis are no different they have admixture from both Asia and rest of Africa, whether these admixture are recent or Ancient god only knows...
But that said would you say Sanchez is liar for suggesting that E3b1 originated among Somali males since the highest frequency of E3b1 was observed among Somali males tested..
The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. Furthermore, the results are in agreement with a gene flow from Eastern to Northern Africa from a homeland in Somalia." - Sanchez et al.
[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 21 September 2005).]
I don't know why you, Cobra and Leba keep saying that I am using Bantu or anyone else as examples of Somalians. The only picture spam I did of Somalians was that of the crowd of Somalians dragging the mutilated body of an American soldier through the streets. Besides that I posted a picture of a Black boy carrying a AK47 as an example of a East African. I never claimed he was Somalian. I have know idea what he is but he is certainly East African.
As for Sanchez we have to accept that statements made by scientist are often later proven wrong with additional research. The Somalian people like many of the other Cushitic speaking people originate from Northern Kenya/Southern Ethiopia. E3b1 is found to be in highest frequency in a group of people from Northern Kenya, the Borana. Several peer reviewed research studies on the origins of the Cushitic people points to the Borana valley in Southern Ethiopia as the location of the origin of these East African and this would also mean the likely origin of E3b.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic