posted
I am wondering if the Ancient Greeks were aware and able to comprehend that the AE language belonged to a different family of language than theirs .
I do think this is important and seems to have been overlooked..by egyptologists..
Depending on theirt comprehension of linguistic theory(principles) the Ancient Greek could have misinterpreted most of the AE language..
However fact that during the Ptolomeic period the AE language became a mixture of New,Classical and Old Egyptian,at least for the hieroglyphic scripts do suggest that this also was reflected in their daily language..
So maybe the abundance of new hieroglyphs and meanings was due to the efforts of the Ancient Greeks to make it understandable to the elite that needed good accounts from their administrators in order to control their subjects..
AE Budge did state(and others as well) that the AE language did have many "African roots-words,expressions" but in his time too little was known to ascertain which was which..
Hence has many modern linguist tried to applied recent knowledge of influence of African language to the AE language?
I do believe it is very important as it could drastically change our understanding of what was AE culture all about..
Also not much inportance seem to have been given to BILINGUAL documents- re relations that the AE had with the Akkadians,Hittites etc..Elamites-
For even scholars today using Champollion method are having real problems in identifying AE characters(kings,administrators,etc.)events based on what these documents wrote about..
If the knowledge if AE is good(it has been deciphered close now to 170 yrs) then why these uncertainties,doubts ,misinterpretations,etc..
Finally I do not believe that the AE was exactly like the current spoken colloquial language of the Egyptian people of today:
-as per Dr Alsaadawi method-he blended Egyptian nationalism with Islam in order to prove his flawed method..and relied on bad data(re Budge's works)and made grave mistakes in order to try to prove his point-if we remove his mistakes his method collapses.. However his classification(at first) of the AE alphabet into family classes needs to be looked into further. Why did he abandon(?) it escapes me..Other languages do NOT have alphabets as per se- just look at the Chinese Language and which methods they use in finding out words in a dictonary !
-as per Tarek A. Moty- I am afraid that he too tried to blend in some from of Egyptian nationalism and took out of context certain aspects(changes) and if we discard those discoveries his method seems to remain valid to a greater degree than that of Champollion.. I do not think he took into consideration the African influence in AE language..
-as per Champollion- this method is seriously FLAWED-no way could Champollion know about the African influence on AE language. He gave too much credit to old Greek documents(many were not that reliable) and made unproven links,Copts=AE. Finally he made too many wild guesses and his method of reading hieroglyphs is absurd..
ryb
Notes-1 I do think that a comparison of the Meroitic+ related languages could shed more light about the AE language which I do not believe was SEMITIC.. It became "semite" starting with the Ramsesses period(see Tarek Abdel Moty hypothesis) Semitic works,roots were incoporated into the AE language and changed it forever..
2-also the notion of monotheism was discarted in favor of polytheism but some beliefs in monotheism did remain..
3- magical practices,astrology ,looser morals(as suggested by the "sex pappyrus of Turin",)etc.. which were alien to the AE culture became mainstream...
4-the AE before the Ramsesses were essentially "African",similar to the present day people of Ethiopia,hence they were NOT CAUCASIANS...nor SEMITES...
If anyone looks at non restored AE paintings,figures he will see this..
5- Present day Egyptians that mostly ressemble their AE ancestors are those of the Sahi'dic dialect,that look like Ethiopians,African-Sudanese
6-and yes racism still does play a role in regards TO AE- just look howm Dr Hawass and cohorts try to Europeanize/caucanize the AE in various world exhibitions..
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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-as per Champollion- this method is seriously FLAWED-no way could Champollion know about the African influence on AE language. He gave too much credit to old Greek documents(many were not that reliable) and made unproven links,Copts=AE. Finally he made too many wild guesses and his method of reading hieroglyphs is absurd..
Why do you keep saying this. If not for the link between Coptic and Egyptian we would not be able to read this ancient African language.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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1-Champollion made WILD guesses and unfounded assumptions to produce his AE grammar.. He had to in order to use the Coptic language and made it match with AE hieroglyphs-you might say he concocted the books ! Do not forget that it was his brother who assembled Champollion's notes after his death into a "grammar.."
2-AE Budge was fully aware of it as well as others when they suggested that African influences were into the AE language
3-Major mistakes- Budge and others did differentiate between older forms of AE and that of the Ptolomeic period but as with CHampollion they failed to realize that the OLD Egyptian language was no longer the same-in fact,due to invaders/usurpers taking control of Egypt the language was changed forever
4-This means that the AFRICAN roots of the AE language were replaced by semitic roots to a large degree..
5- From onwards the AE religion changed from being MONOTHEISTIC to a POLYTHEISTIC one by the introduction of various things:
1-magical practices ,astrology,deification of the King /Pharaon as a God. 2-deterioration of the morals(re the "sex papyrus" of Turin is a good exmaple) 3-lost of the techonology on building new pyramids,maintaining older ones,etc,the proper way of carving hieroglyphs into the stones..
4-changing certain hieroglyphs meanings,attempts to deface older monuments to erase prior knowledge
5-lost of the esoteric knowledge(spiritual as well as material) like using the chamber of the Great Pyramid as a healing tool.. etc...
6-being unable to really undertstand the older script
etc....
Okay=proofs ?_
A-look up the Grammaire Egyptienne de Champollion le Jeune(1836) which is on-line
See Chapitre II and later...
I am unsure if the English version is available on-line..
B-major problems scholars are having in reconciliating their knowledge of other ancient scripts and applying it to the AE hieroglyphs..-like AE had many commercial,diplomatic relations with its neighbors but when we look at bilingual texts the egyptologists are having major difficulties,especially with ancient scripts whose decipherment was attained independently from Coptic/AEanguager-it did not depend on them
These texts do not match with the AE texts the egyptologists are using ,based on the Champollion grammar !
C- no AE dictionary ? All egyptologists are at lost to explain this.. The reason is that the AE language was NOT ALPHABETIC. Impossible ? Look at the Chinese language it is NOT alphabetic yet thy were able to make up a dictionary !
D-So Dr Alsaadawi stated in his method that the AE was classified by phonemes(sounds) hence his idea that hese sounds representing families of sounds and thus could contain different hieroglyphs within each sound family; later he abandonned it in favor of his infamous (?)motorising letters" and the immuable fixture of the AE sound values..
I believe that he did it for good reasons-in order to blend Egyptian nationalism with Islam ;to prove(!) that the present day Egyptians,not the Copts,were the real AE;also this was NOT his original idea,he had "borrowed "it from somebody else..
E-the person that has had a grasp of what is going on is a non scholar by the name of Tarek Abdel Moty I do not know why nobody on this list,especially those in Egypt,never attempted to contact him or read the ARABIC portion of his website...
However I do not think that his method takes sufficiently into account the African roots of the AE language..
F-the AE- basically they came from NUBIA and were AFRICANS/Ethiopian types-they were NOT CAUCASIANS until the Ramsesses took over the country..
G-the vestiges of the Meroitic script are the last vestiges of the true AE language,not the other way around as most scholars seem to think
Prosperous ? No,since the last AE temples were in Nubia and active up until the time of the advent of Islam..
H-Read Tarek Abdel Moty- about Gold and Red Mercury-it also explains why the AE had so much gold..
I- Fl. Griffith used AE(as per Champollion) in order to try to decipher Meroitic with very mixed results..this is why it is "still undeciphered to a large degree"..
The Meroitic were NOT isolated-they had relationships with AE Ethiopian etc...cultures that had scripts as well..
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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-as per Champollion- this method is seriously FLAWED-no way could Champollion know about the African influence on AE language. He gave too much credit to old Greek documents(many were not that reliable) and made unproven links,Copts=AE. Finally he made too many wild guesses and his method of reading hieroglyphs is absurd..
Why do you keep saying this. If not for the link between Coptic and Egyptian we would not be able to read this ancient African language.
.
Ray is a bit - one track minded here, which would not be such a bad thing if there were some useful follow thru.
But there isn't, so his discourse just gets stuck.
He criticises Champollion and Budge...yet he reads Narmer Pallette as possible referencing 'moses'.
Evidently the point of claiming current translations of mdw ntr are badly flawed is that it frees him to come up with more 'creative' translation? ?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Heiroglyphics had some influence on Greek and Latin but it is different. The numbers and many things that Greece takes credit to started in Egypt. For example Pythagoras learned religion and mathemetics from Egyptian priests. The Egyptian trinity of Isis, Osiris, and Horus is represented in Greece by Demeter, Dionysos, and Apollo.
Regarding Ancient Egyptian language it is not really African in origin. It is Afro-Asiatic but not so much Hamitic as it is Semitic. It is similar to the Phoenecian language. However Greek is part of the Indo-Eropean language so it is safe to just say no.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Jul 2006
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What proof do you have that Ancient Egyptian is not African language. Last time I checked Afro-Asiatic IS a African Language family. Ancient Egypt was An African Civilization so why would the language not be African. This stuff about it being Semetic language you need proof before you make a statement like this.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Rameses, the leading expert on the ancient Egyptian language expert named Antonio Loprieno actually states that ancient Egyptian bears little resemblence to Semitic. He actually states its more closely related to Beja than Semitic languages. Many Semitic linguists also put the Proto-Semitic speakers in modern day Ethiopia.
Afro-Asiatic linguist Diankoff infact states that Semitic is a much younger branch of the Afro-Asiatic so its rather doubtful that ancient Egyptian language was Semitic. Afro-Asiatic originated on the continent of Africa and most of its sub-families[with the exception of Semitic] are mostly spoken on the continent of Africa.
All Afro-Asiatic families share similarities but the point is what time period each broke off.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Rameses the Grea: lol, ok
But you can't prove that it is not Semitic.
Of course we can. Egyptian has its own separate branch in the Afro-Asiatic phylum. Semitic is a whole branch altogether. Speaking generally, the Egyptian branch is no more close to the Semitic branch than it is to others. Even if the branches are closer to one branch than another, the most likely relationships would be that Semitic and Berber are the closest, then Semitic-Berber and Cushitic, then Semitic-Berber + Cushitic and Egyptian, with the Chadic and Omotic branches being the farthest removed.
See also Zaborski, Andrzej. 1997. The position of Cushitic and Berber within Afroasiatic dialects, Afroasiatica Neapolitana, Alessandro Bausi and Mauro Tosco, eds., 49-59. Napoli: Istituto Universitario Orientale.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Which periods of Egypt are you talking about? There are many stages to the Egyptian language
I am speaking of all phases of ancient Egyptian. Old Kingdom;Middle Kingdom,and Late Period and even the final phase of Coptic. Ancient Egyptian was its own seperate language phylum seperate from Semitic.
I just quoted the leading expert in ancient Egyptian linguistics that said in his own reserch ancient Egyptian is more related to Beja than Semitic languages.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Many people do not realize that most egyptologists were trained into the "classical AE language" period
Why is that so ?
simply put:
1-"new Egyptian" is very different from -the "Classical language" and you have few experts/books etc in that period of the language
Also it is heavily influenced by Phoenician and later Greek terminology
As Champollion used COPTIC which stemmed from that "new(or late) Egyptian to decipher the hieroglyphs-scholars cannot renegade it as it would discount all of their works since Champollion's time..
So they used his methods and applied it to Classical Egyptian with mixed results-thus you have endless series of scholars contradicting one another..
Note-Champollion was aware of the different stages of the language but with his methods he could not get good results with Old Egyptian texts and later texts of the Classical period..
His grammar was put together by his brother,after his death-you just ave to read Budge as to how it was done (see the Introduction in Vol 1 of his Dictionary..
It was not(the grammar) a finished text that was just waiting for the printing presses.)
2-Old Egyptian- very few egyptologists are expert in it and very few texts/books exist on it..
3-analysis of similar texts like bilingual correspondances between Egypt and its neighbours-some works have been done but not very well known and egyptologists are having problems in making them coincide with what they know of AE,as per their interpretations of the AE language..
4-AE-we all have seen paintings etc of Black Pharaons and likewise..
But why did it stopped ?!Scholars explain it by the demise of the Nubian Kings,invaders from what is know now as Sudan..
It is simply the contrary- these were the last attempts by the real AE to regain control of their Kingdom that had been taken over by the Asiatics(Syrians and the likes)..who were SEMITIC...
5-next to all of the EGYPTOLOGISTS are either Europeans(caucasians) and or of semitic origin.. I have yet to see how many Black archeologist there are..
6-Also in Egypt- how any "black Egyptians" are egyptologists?
Yes, I do see "black egyptians" at excavation sites but they are doing the menial work(diggings,dirt removing ,etc.).while the European-like egyptologists give the orders.. Just look at photos,films etc...
6-here (on this list) to many people still believe in the FABLE that the last inscription in AE was around 400 AD when the evil Coptic priests(!) closed, destroyed the last temple of the AE religion
This is a MYTH ..It is simply not true..It was perpetuated by European scholars to DENY the BLACK /African and real origins of the AE people and their monotheistic religion.
These scholars still cannot accept that the AE-originating from Africa were monotheistic thousands of years before the Judeo-Christian religion;also that Judeo christian religion stemmed from the AE religion..
7-The AE had high morals,did not believe in black magick practices nor polytheistic gods nor astrology ,etc...
8-The AE as per se ceased to exist starting with the XIX Dynasty onwards
If you look up Budge's book called The Mummy(misleading title) on page 102 you have under List of the Nesubati and Son of RAA Names,in the list of names in Dynasty XIX,number #8- it is translated as "ARSU.. a Syrian..."
And Budge,still in his The Mummy Book on page 82,(chapter of "Outline of the History of Egypt" states :"
JUSTINIAN(AD 527-567) sent Narses to close the temples at Philae and to suppress the worship of Isis and Osiris...
So one can conclude that the AE was still practiced when the Arabs took control of Egypt
(just closing and looting a temple did not put an end to the cult)
It was forced islamization that finished off the AE religion,which renmants survided in what is called Sufism..
9-I do believe that Tarek Abdel Moty addreses this on his website(in its Arabic section)
10-Also the work of Prof El Daly that is shoved under the rug by most modern scholars where he proves that the Arabs new AE to a degree-
How? Well as islamization replaced the AE historians etc recorded its history,customs etc...many of which were incorporated into Islam..also many of the AE techniques-for dams,buildings,maconnery etc..
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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Listen to Yom and Ausar they know alot about the language of ancient egypt. And the language is just as African as the Civilization. And lets not forget that Ethiopia is home to the most Semetic languages in the world. This shows that Ethiopia is the home of the Semetic language family. So what ever way you want to say it you will have a pretty hard time taking Ancient Egypt or its language out of Africa.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
^^^Ausar, has the connection of AE to Beja been supported by other authors? Does he consider Beja an independent branch rather than a sub-division of Cushitic?
quote:Originally posted by KING: Rameses
Listen to Yom and Ausar they know alot about the language of ancient egypt. And the language is just as African as the Civilization. And lets not forget that Ethiopia is home to the most Semetic languages in the world. This shows that Ethiopia is the home of the Semetic language family. So what ever way you want to say it you will have a pretty hard time taking Ancient Egypt or its language out of Africa.
Peace
Actually the languages are closely related, which doesn't support the hypothesis as much. Ethiopia is home to the most (all of them diverse) branches of Afro-Asiatic in the world, indicating that AA originated in NE Africa, and therefore the Semitic branch probably did too. The branches were formerly Egyptian, Berber, Semitic, Chadic, and Cushitic. Now Omotic has been pretty assuredly been split from Cushitic. Beja may also be its own branch in AA, and a language called Ongota (Omotic) is being studied as it could possibly be separate from Omotic as an independent branch of AA. If all of these splits are considered accurate, and Eritrea is considered along with Ethiopia for the home of AA, then the area would contain 5 of the 8 AA primary divisions. Even if the controversial ones aren't considered (i.e. Ongota & Beja), Ethiopia contains 3 of 6, more than any other area. Plus, for Semitic to have arisen in the Levant (or elsewhere in the Middle East), then AA would have to be indigenous to the area, too, which is unlikely. The only way that could have happened is through migration of all primary branches out of the Middle East before the other branches split like Semitic, which would imply that all the non-Semitic branches would be closer to each other, reflecting an early split of Semitic from AA, which is not what the data supports. All in all, Proto-AA and all of its branches probably arose in Africa.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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I see we have another Arab liar trying to sell some brainwashing cool aid. Sufism is brainwashing.
Look at the peace treaty with Nessite or Hittite. Without knowing how to ready the Kemetic text the translators would not know how to translate the Nessite(Hittite) text.
Ray2006 don't you have any ethics? How far will you go to sell your religion? When you mentioned black magic within Kemet does that mean that black magic is bad while "white" magic is good.
quote: -the AE- basically they came from NUBIA and were AFRICANS/Ethiopian types-they were NOT CAUCASIANS until the Ramsesses took over the country..
quote: This is a MYTH ..It is simply not true..It was perpetuated by European scholars to DENY the BLACK /African and real origins of the AE people and their monotheistic religion.
These scholars still cannot accept that the AE-originating from Africa were monotheistic thousands of years before the Judeo-Christian religion;also that Judeo christian religion stemmed from the AE religion..
You have no shame Ray2006, notice that you see Afrikans debating Eurocentrics and Arabcentrics towards the ethnic make-up of Kemet and you have the nerve to use this argument as a means to sell Islam. I guess that you have excluded Judeo-Christian religions as being similar to Kemet in order to weasel your lie towards Islam being the official religion of Kemet right?
You Muslims will lie to your own Mother in order to sell your religion Posts: 477 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rameses the Grea: Ray2006,
if you're going to go against common knowledge you might as well claim the sky is red.
Which common knowledge? I already showed you that Egyptian is not Semitic, nor is it more related to Semitic than the other branches.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Common Knowledge seems to be something you your self is going against Rameses. You say that Ancient Egyptian is a Semetic language then show no proof of this. Yom and Ausar have shown that Ancient Egypt is not a Semetic Language but is part of the Afro Asiatic Language family. Ausar has even shown that Egyptian is related to the Beja languages. Why should anybody believe what you say. You have provided no proof of your claims. At least show us why you think that Ancient Egyptian was a Semetic language. I don't dismiss valid proof.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
First of all I am not an Arab nor muslim nor Judeo-Christian- I am a "pagan"..that believes in monotheism
And yes there is good and bad as well as EVIL in this world,thus the devil/satan is real..
Secondly-I have come to the conclusion that RACISM is ALIVE and WELL in muslim countries..
Take Sudan- the US/England are using this card with success to partition the country-because of the inherent racism blended with muslim beliefs.
[A note here- do you know want the present sentiment is in US(and Canada to a degree) in regards to the present Lebanon mess?
I will tell you- Yay for Isreal and we should NUKE all of them ARABS(=anything that resembles a muslims) and make a clean state-millions are demanding this..
The Isrealis just kiiled many Canadians(of Lebanese origin and muslims) that were vacationing in Lebanon and the response from our Prime Minister-Isreal is right in defending itself..from "terrorists".
This is attitude is prevalent in Canada-in the US this is even much worse..]
Just take one of the mixed "arab country" which is Egypt- Where do you see BLACK EGYPTIANS in any kind of power position.?
Where are the Black Egyptian actors,in the media etc..on screen,TV, etc...?
All I see is semitic(Arabic) types..Same applies to egyptologists etc..
Look at reportages/photos,etc of excavations in Egypt- all the manual laborers are dark skinned.
Next to all of the bosses up to the archeologists are either caucasians or semites(Arabs)..
Where one will find an article about the uniqueness of the decorative houses of the Nubians-they paint their houses wiht motifs that do ressemble AE hieroglyphs in many cases !...
Also over 30% of Black slaves sold to the US were MUSLIMS and they are the originators of the BLUES style of music..
ryb
Notes 1-- I also noticed that over here(Canada) most black muslims tend to frequent their own stores in lieu of stores owned by arabs(semites muslims)
I am not saying that all "semites are evil" but they do have a long history of racism towards the Blacks and islam has been used as a control mechanism to rule over them by their semite(Arab) masters..
2-in an interesting correlation the SUMERIANS and their language ARE AN ODDITY AND CANNOT BE PUT INTO ANY KNOWN LANGUAGE FAMILY. In fact some are even suggesting that Sumerian might have been a TONAL language like Chinese...
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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I hvae not been unable to find out what percentage of the Egyptian population is non semitic..that has dark skin...
Don't get language and ethnicity mixed up. Ethiopians are dark-skinned and Semitic-speakers. Indians are also dark-skinned (esp. in the South) and are Indo-European speakers. Turks (i.e. of Turkey) don't have "mongoloid" features, but speak Turkic, etc., etc.
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posted
What I was referring here is that "light skinned Egyptians" seem to have next to all the good positions in the society.
I might add that 60% of the Cubans are Blacks yet...
I also think that 40% of all Brasilians are colored(Blacks to one degree or another)
Also in regards to "arabs" selling blacks to Americans,English etc.. etc...the majority of the slave traders were JEWISH..
Origin of Beja language- very little has been done in that regards..
The Asians,asiatic language that the AE spoke of applied to Syrian and beyond.
So it does confirm to a degree that their AE language was different from this Asiatic language(that was semitic),hence its African roots...
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posted
I don't know where Ray is going with the stuff about the Jews but I have to remark about the Brazilians comments. I think that the Number of Black Brazilians is higher then 40%. I think it is something closer to 48%-53%. In a country like Brazil they usually under report how much Black blood they have. And for Egypt I think that the Black Egyptians need to make their voices heard in Egypt. You never really hear about Dark Egyptians that complain about what is happening in Egypt. You just hope that They can have people who voices their opinions. They need a voice.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Common Knowledge seems to be something you your self is going against Rameses. You say that Ancient Egyptian is a Semetic language then show no proof of this. Yom and Ausar have shown that Ancient Egypt is not a Semetic Language but is part of the Afro Asiatic Language family. Ausar has even shown that Egyptian is related to the Beja languages. Why should anybody believe what you say. You have provided no proof of your claims. At least show us why you think that Ancient Egyptian was a Semetic language. I don't dismiss valid proof.
Peace
The ancient Egyptian language although lacking in African roots was from the Afro-Asiatic family. It relates with the Berber language more than anything else. It depends on the time periods.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rameses the Grea: The ancient Egyptian language although lacking in African roots was from the Afro-Asiatic family. It relates with the Berber language more than anything else. It depends on the time periods.
Lacking in African roots??? Did you read anything that was addressed to you? The Afro-Asiatic family originated in Africa. Egyptian is not closer to Berber than other branches. The branches are relatively relatively equal in distance. However, there are suggestions (as per ausar), that Ancient Egyptian is closest to Beja of the other branches (if Beja is considered distinct from Cushitic, otherwise I assume closeness with Cushitic). Semitic is much closer to Berber than Egyptian. According to Zaborski, Egyptian is more distinct from Semitic, Berber, and Cushitic as a whole, than the three are from each other.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Your Proof is weak. I thought that you had valid proof. You seemed confident that Ancient Egyptian was a Semetic language but now I am beginning to see that you really have no valid proof. Now you say it is closer to Berber. What you seem to forget is that Berber is a African language, with roots only in Africa. Is this the best you got?
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Yom, that is per a linguist named Antonio Loprieno. He is one of the few leading experts on ancient Egyptian languages and you can read his exact statements in his book Ancient Egyptian A linguistic introduction. Be warned that his book is very technical and it would take a linguist to appreciate it.
If you look in the archives of Egypt search there is also another linguist that argued for Chadic being very close to ancient Egyptian. I will try to find the pdf of this.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Yom, that is per a linguist named Antonio Loprieno. He is one of the few leading experts on ancient Egyptian languages and you can read his exact statements in his book Ancient Egyptian A linguistic introduction. Be warned that his book is very technical and it would take a linguist to appreciate it.
If you look in the archives of Egypt search there is also another linguist that argued for Chadic being very close to ancient Egyptian. I will try to find the pdf of this.
Thanks a lot. I'm pretty good on linguistic matters when it comes to phonology and general concepts, so I think I'll be okay so long as it doesn't go too in depth on morphological and grammatical features (e.g. 0-root stems and all the cases and tenses and all that).
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Your Proof is weak. I thought that you had valid proof. You seemed confident that Ancient Egyptian was a Semetic language but now I am beginning to see that you really have no valid proof. Now you say it is closer to Berber. What you seem to forget is that Berber is a African language, with roots only in Africa. Is this the best you got?
Peace
LOL-I don't have to prove anything to you. Berber is North African last time I checked it is not 'African.' Not in the cultural sense. We taught Africa not vice versa. Egypt was Semitic and those were the people who made the pyramids. If you see the heiroglyphs you would see it is very similar to that of Punic. It also was similar to the writing style of Sumeria. Last time I checked in Middle East. Please educate yourself. wikipediaPosts: 62 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rameses you have done nothing but make false statements without even making any attempts to back them up.
It has been shown decades ago when linguists were still using the 'Hamito-Semitic' name for the phylum, that Egyptian was indeed 'Hamitic' [read: African] and NOT Semitic. Such findings were most notably made by E.A. Wallis Budge who shows that the Egyptian language was words that are monosyllabic in root like many African languages and not triliteral like Semitic languages.
Of course years later, mor accurate linguistic classifications show that there was no division between 'Hamitic' and 'Semitic' so much as there being different branches or subfamilies.
The relations between these subfamilies is still in debate, but what IS certain is that the whole phylum of Afrasian as it is called now, originated in Africa. Most scholars agree it is somewhere in the vicinity of Northeast Africa. Even proto-Semitic originated in Africa before it spread to southwestern Asia as noted by Afrasian experts like Christopher Ehret.
Either way, Egyptian is NOT Semtic and it IS African. Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:LOL-I don't have to prove anything to you. Berber is North African last time I checked it is not 'African.' Not in the cultural sense. We taught Africa not vice versa. Egypt was Semitic and those were the people who made the pyramids. If you see the heiroglyphs you would see it is very similar to that of Punic. It also was similar to the writing style of Sumeria. Last time I checked in Middle East. Please educate yourself. wikipedia
Northern African is not African? Unless Northern Africa floats off the continent of Africa and attaches itself somewhere else then it is African. You make absolutely no sense. You further contridict yourself by saying ancient Egyptian was Semitic but similar to non-Semitic languages like Sumerian.
How can Punic and hieroglyphics be similar when both don't even look similar much less are examples of similar writing. Plus Punic writing developed at a later time period than did hieroglyphics.
Middle East is a modern Orientalist term that did not exist in antiquity so its not really valid when studying antiquity.
I will repeat this for you to understand:Semitic is not a racial or ethnic group but a linguistic classification!!!!
Your wikipedia reference does not support any of your assertions but here is a reference that supports mine about ancient Egyptian being non-Semitic:
From: Frank Joseph Yurco - view profile Date: Wed, Feb 25 1998 12:00 am Email: fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu (Frank Joseph Yurco) Groups: sci.anthropology, soc.culture.african.american, soc.culture.egyptian, sci.archaeology, sci.anthropology.paleo Not yet rated Rating: show options
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Dear Philip,
Your views need some emending: First, the ancient Egyptians were not a Semitic people. Their language, Egypto-Coptic is part of the North African branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family. Semitic languages belong to the eastern, western Asian branch of this language family. Thus Egypt is African in culture, not Semitic.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
-- Frank Joseph Yurco fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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You seem to go from thread to thread talking some garbage. Since when is North Africa not apart of Africa? And when did "North Africa" Teach the rest of Africa? Last Time I checked Berbers were related to the rest of Africa via the Pn2 Clade unless you have proof that Berbers are not apart of the Pn2 clade. I would really like to read your proof of this. So far you are going from thread to thread not making any points, not answering any questions and posting rediculos garbage that makes no sense. You are I am sorry to say turning your self into a troll. At least show proof of something. Berbers are not "African", Egyptians are "Semetic" You must have some kind of proof to make such stupid claims.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Just so that Rameses does not forget. This Forum is for people who want to learn about Ancient Egypt. And it looks like you have alot to learn about. Like I said in the other thread you really need to read the Prophecy of Neferti.
You can learn alot about Ancient Egypt and its origin in The south.
posted
I've proven my points. Whether you take into acount what I'm trying to tell you remains to be seen. You think my logic is flawed however I see that it is your's that is flawed.
I don't care what you say, I have studied many years of history and read many books on Egypt, Greece, and Rome. If you want to go off and talk about how much you know try learning how much I know.
Calling me a troll I find highly offensice and I wish to converse with you no longer. I hopt the moderators will deal with this attack apropriately.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Interesting thing here is that BEJA lnguage is now being seen outside the Cushitic family,as an independent branch,notably by Robert Hetzron(1980)
He dcied in 1997 and was a specialist in Semitic languages(he was a Hungarian Jew that later emigrated to the US)
posted
I see that Rameses is still talking his stupidness. He goes from one thread posting stuff like Racial Reality and and a website that says Civilizations That Have Perished Through Contact With Colored Races: Egypt
And then he wants people to actually take him seriously. I am sorry that he has a hard time being called a Troll. But only Racist Trolls post stuff like this and think they are posting facts.
Lets see how much of what Rameses says is facts and lies.
Facts: None
Lies: Everything that he has typed. anyone will call people like him a troll and Racist. Only people like Evil Euro and Leba would post stuff about Colored people being the demise of Civilizations and think that they are acutally not bias.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Nobody was Attacking you. Its kind of sad that you took that as an Attack. Be truthful to yourself, do you really believe that anyone was going to take you seriously when you post stuff from Racial Reality and a website that puts down colored people. Only a fool would believe what you have posted. I am sorry but this forum is about Truth. I think you are on the wrong forum.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I don't care what you say nor do I take acount any of your insolent behaviour. I have friends who are colored, but one must face and open his eyes to reality.
One learns history through the spirit to learn. Or in your case lack of.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rameses the Grea: I've proven my points. Whether you take into acount what I'm trying to tell you remains to be seen. You think my logic is flawed however I see that it is your's that is flawed.
I don't care what you say, I have studied many years of history and read many books on Egypt, Greece, and Rome. If you want to go off and talk about how much you know try learning how much I know.
Calling me a troll I find highly offensice and I wish to converse with you no longer. I hopt the moderators will deal with this attack apropriately.
You're a fool. If any moderator action is taken it will be against you.
Here are some facts you will be dismayed to hear (though not the first one, I assume):
(1997)
quote:1.1. I learned that Judah ibn Quraysh from Tiaret in Algeria noted connections between Semitic and Berber already in the 9th century! 1.2. Lipiński agress that there are points of contact between Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European, though "these are scarcely sufficient to warrant assumption of any genetic connection." On the other hand, he notes some very basic links between Afro-Asiatic and Bantu, e.g., the nount prefix mu=, the reciprocal verb morpheme -án-, and the causative morpheme -ís-/-íš-. 2.17. While some scholars have posited that Egyptian is the branch of Afro-Asiatic most closely related to Semitic, perhaps based on geography, or on close cultural and political contacts over millenia, Lipiński deems Berber and Cushitic [including Omotic, I believe] [b]closest to Semitic, then Egyptian, with Chadic as the most distantly-related group. 3.3. Lipiński considers North Africa to be the original homeland of the Semites. He suggests that they migrated "through the Nile delta from the West to the East, and reached Western Asia, where written documents of the third millenium BC preserve noticeable traces of Pre-Semitic and, in Mesopotamia, also of pre-Sumarian substratum."
All this is by a reviewer who says of Lipiński:
Just as scholars today continue to refer to Brockelmann, notwithstanding how outdated that work is, a century from now scholars will still be utilizing Lipiński as a standard reference work.Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
"One learns History through the Spirt to learn"
The only thing that I agree with you on. Also Having "Friends" that are "Colored" does not mean your not a Racist. You showed your true "colors" for everyone to read. You are worse then Evil Euro, at least he tried to back up his claims with some form of studies. You have not shown any studies worth reading. The sad thing is that the "Reality" you live in must be pretty pathetic because to really think that colored people brought civilizations down is something terrible to believe in. You need to leave the closet your in and step out into the real world. The world is mostly colored.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Good post Yom. Some more truth that Rameses seems to want to run away from. More proof of Semetic originating in Africa. Since Rameses is just a racist troll I don't expect any good response from him.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
"You're a fool. If any moderator action is taken it will be against you."
That's fine this is the last time I will post or visit here. I tried to back up my reasoning but if you want to insult me that's fine. I have seen how stupid some of you moderators are to Christian views and others. I don't care what you say I will continue my studies and not stay in this place.
I guess you reward the moron named KING by letting him score brownie points. This forum is out of control and so are most people here who do not see conductive reasoning.
All you guys do is beat a dead horse. I assume that is why this place is not known or acknowledged by scholars...ho hum.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:That's fine this is the last time I will post or visit here.
Anatomy of flame-out trolling...
* make baseless assertions. ** ignore requests for proof. *** ignore proof to the contrary. **** repeat baseless assertions. ***** strike attitudes.. ****** pronounce that you are leaving - because of the bad behavior of other.
posted
Hilarious. We mounted heaps of evidence upon him, to the point of force-feeding, yet he chooses to vomit and starve rather than accept the truth and nourish his mind. Instead, he decides to leave the restaurant altogether!
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
^LMAO What can I say? Such is the logic of a patheic, broken, troll.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Egyptian is a fairly typical Afro-Asiatic language. At the heart of Egyptian vocabulary is a root of three consonants. Sometimes there were only two, for example /r'/ "sun" (where the apostrophe represents a voiced pharyngeal fricative); others, such as /nfr/, which means beautiful; and some could be as large as five /sxdxd/ "be upside-down". Vowels and other consonants were then added to this root in order to derive words, in the same way as Arabic, Hebrew, and other Afro-Asiatic languages do today. However, we do not know what these vowels would have been, since like other Afro-Asiatic languages, Egyptian does not write vowels; hence "ankh" could represent either "life", "to live" or "living". In transcription, "a", "i" and "u" all represent consonants; for example, the name Tutankhamen was written in Egyptian "twt 'nkh ymn" (the apostrophe represents a voiced pharyngeal fricative). Experts have assigned generic sounds to these values as a matter of convenience; however, this artificial pronunciation has often been mistaken for actual pronunciation.
Phonologically, Egyptian contrasted bilabial, labiodental, alveolar, palatal, velar, uvular, pharyngeal and glottal consonants, in a distribution rather similar to that of Arabic.
Egyptian's basic word order is Verb Subject Object; where we would write "the man opens the door", Egyptians would say "opens the man the door" (wn s a3)
Regarding morphology, Egyptian uses the so-called status constructus construction to combine two or more nouns, more or less like any Semitic language. With this construction, the first noun is sometimes changed - e.g. final -h in feminine nouns becomes -t. Example: mlkt shba "The Queen of Saba", the original form of mlkt being mlkh. The early stages of Egyptian possessed no articles, no words for "the" or "a"; later forms used the words /p3/, /t3/ and /n3/ for this purpose (where 3 represents a glottal stop.) Egyptian uses two grammatical genders, masculine and feminine, similarly to Romance languages and Irish Gaelic; it also uses three grammatical numbers: like many other Afro-Asiatic languages, it contrasts singular, dual and plural forms. When saying something like "the man is red", the word "red" (dšrt in Egyptian) acts as a predicative verb.
[edit] Notes on pronunciation A "received pronunciation" of the names of ancient Egyptian words has formed. By and large, this pronunciation is acceptable for most consonants and utterly wrong for the vowels. Egyptologists developed a set of conventions to make it easier to talk about the terms they used. Two distinct different consonants, the glottal stop and the voiced pharyngeal fricative, are both replaced with "a". The semivowel /j/ is replaced with "i", and similarly, /w/ with "u". Between the other consonants, "e" is then added. Thus, for example, the Egyptian king whose name is most accurately transcribed as Rˁ-ms-sw is known as "Rameses", meaning "Ra has Fashioned (lit. "Borne") Him". The actual rendition of his name, however, is thought to be "Riaˁmissa", as discovered from cuneiform documents in Mesopotamia.
The name should properly be Riamissa and not Ramases.
posted
Wow! I missed all of this? Ramasees is a troll. An ignorant troll. And then is he trying to say that he is Christian?.....whatever. Thanks fellas for being on your knowledge......You too Jehuti. Ya'll cats is alright. Ya'll showed the knowledge, and he had nothing at all to back up his positions. I was taught in undergrad to always have facts to back up your thesis, premise, etc. I checked Ramasees posts, and he had NO PROOF at all. And listen, it wasn't like he had proof that was wrong, he had literally NOTHING! People like that........piss me off. So again, thanks fellas for being solid on your science. Salaam. Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
What do you expect from people who have been brought up on lies and the teachings of the "great" white race that DOMINATED history books throughout the world for many years. Today it is IMPOSSIBLE for that talk to be taken seriously. While Egypt has been considered a crossroads for many cultures and peoples, it is not the case that you can ARBITRARILY put whatever people you want into ancient Egypt because of it. Some would rather stick to the notion of white scholars, especially those who espouse a white Egypt, as being the only AUTHORITIES of ancient Egypt and it s peoples. Therefore, in their minds, many of the latest findings and research indicating the BLACK African origin of the Egyptians is treated with scorn and ridicule, to be looked down upon because it doesnt support the old theories that they believe in. Obviously it is because those so-called authorities that they tout were RACISTS and their theories BIASED that the new information is so different. But rather than ADMIT that these people were very BIASED, they would rather live in denial and act as if the racist attitudes of victorian scholars was not a signifigant factor in scholarship.......
Posts: 8899 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Ok, with an unbiased view I will tell you facts:
I will go back to the days of Noah to answer the following quetions.
Egyptians were from Ham, more notably Mizraim. Although we think of Africa as black, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan were not. Kush of the Eithiopians was. So, Mizraim even though was African was not 'black.' Hence the name Misr.
Later Semetics from the Middle East and Caucasians, from the Caucasus, Armenia, Georgia, and parts of Russia came. Thusly, the multicultural state of Egypt was born. Later we start getting Nubians from the south inhabiting Luxor, Aswan, Heliopolis, etc. Now the pyramids were constructed. How do we know Semetics were there? Well simply, history has shown without a Semetic appeal in the African nations, they can't thrive.
For example, the incredible Songhai dynasty, before sacked by Moroccans was influenced by the Middle East and North Africans.
Rameses the Great had red hair, Queen Hapsheutseut had blond hair, and Thutimosis had pale skin. However King Tut and many others during the late dynasties had dark skin.
Now, when the Nubians took over Lower Egypt, they started coloring the paintings on the wall. So now we have an indication that Egypt was all black.
Most importantly the Ancient Egyptians even though not knowledgable of the bible called themselves, 'The Sons of Abraham.'
If Copts are the best indication of the Ancient Egyptians, then this must be true.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Jul 2006
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This is just garbage what you wrote. After first saying that Colored Races brought civilization down now your saying that Africans can only thrive with semetic influence? Where do you get your info from? What valid proof do you have of any of this. What you write does not make much sense. Read this about Egypt: Genetics, Egypt, and History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita.pdf
You have to be real stupid to believe what you just wrote. Like I said before this forum is about learning. You really need to learn about Egypt and the rest of Africa before you make stupid and ignorant comments like this.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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