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Originally posted by BrandonP:
Since it seems to me that a lot of people in the human pop. genetics fandom conflate genetic affinities and admixture components with phenotypic "race"...

1) Suppose you found a community of people deep in the Arabian desert that all had ebony skin, kinky hair, broad noses, and full lips. You take DNA from them and find out that their ancestry is more or less fully West Eurasian, with no African (not even "Basal Eurasian") ancestry since OOA whatsoever. Are they Black people or not?

2) Suppose you found another community deep in the highlands of South Africa that all had light skin, straight blond hair, narrow and prominent noses, and thin lips. You take DNA from them and find out they're most closely related to Central African populations and have little to no Eurasian ancestry (including no Neanderthal ancestry) whatsoever. They are as sub-Saharan genetically as one can be. Are they Black people or not?

(I realize these are both rather improbable events, but let's not get into that for the sake of argument.)

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

Does genotypic affinity = phenotypic race?

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Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

Since it seems to me that a lot of people in the human pop. genetics fandom conflate genetic affinities and admixture components with phenotypic "race"...

1) Suppose you found a community of people deep in the Arabian desert that all had ebony skin, kinky hair, broad noses, and full lips. You take DNA from them and find out that their ancestry is more or less fully West Eurasian, with no African (not even "Basal Eurasian") ancestry since OOA whatsoever. Are they Black people or not?

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What's funny is that there is minority population in southern Arabia that has been described as "Negrito" in old academic journals but why use Arabia right next to Africa?

What about the Andaman Islanders of Southeast Asia?







^ These people were not only described as 'black' but outright "Negroid" by European scholars even though they are 100% Eurasian.

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2) Suppose you found another community deep in the highlands of South Africa that all had light skin, straight blond hair, narrow and prominent noses, and thin lips. You take DNA from them and find out they're most closely related to Central African populations and have little to no Eurasian ancestry (including no Neanderthal ancestry) whatsoever. They are as sub-Saharan genetically as one can be. Are they Black people or not?

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(I realize these are both rather improbable events, but let's not get into that for the sake of argument.)

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Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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By common consent the ethnic history of our American continents should The American begin from the West. It is evident that the American Mongoloids - for so we may designate the aboriginal nations of the New World - are connected by race, affinity, and descent with the Asiatic and Polynesian Mongoloids whom we have considered in the preceding book. It is from our western shores that we must follow inland, even to the Atlantic coast, the lines of that race dispersion by which our aborigines were distributed to the places in which they were found by the European adventurers of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

As we have frequently indicated in preceding parts of the present work, the routes by which Asiatics and Polynesians came to America in the prehistoric ages were two in number, or, at most, four. One of these was Siberia and the other Polynesian. The Siberian lines appear to have gone the one by way of Behring strait, and the other through the Aleutian Islands. Th Polynesian line seems to have divided, sending one branch through Lower Polynesia against the central western coast of South America, while the upper, or western branch, was directed by way of the Sandwich Islands to Mexico and Central America. Our western coasts having thus been reached by branches of the Mongoloid stock, the rest may be easily, because of the distribution of barbarous tribes through our continents from west to east was in no wise difficult after they were once well established along the western shores.

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In the beginning of such a discussion many reflections of a general character respecting the races about to be considered suggest themselves to the inquirer. One of the first of these is the laying of geographical boundaries around that division of mankind defined as Black. This great task in our present state of knowledge is not difficult to perform. Time was in the near past, however, when the boundaries of the Black races were unknown. Those boundaries, indeed, were supposed to be vastly more extensive than subsequent inquiry has shown to be the fact. The whole tendency of ethnological investigation for the last half century has been to narrow the geographical areas occupied by the Black races.


WE now purpose to take up and consider in its turn the last of the three primary divisions of the human family. This is the Black race, to which many references have already been made in preceding portions of this work. Our prime classification of the various branches of the human family has, from the first, proceeded on the general line of color, and this method we now follow to its ultimate results by including in our last group of peoples all those who by the test of complexion may be classified together as Blacks.

In the beginning of such a discussion many reflections of a general character respecting the races about to be considered suggest themselves to the inquirer. One of the first of these is the laying of geographical boundaries around that division of mankind defined as Black. This task in our present advanced state of knowledge is not difficult to perform. Time was in the near past, however, when the boundaries of the Black races were unknown. Those boundaries, indeed, were supposed to be vastly more extensive than subsequent inquiry has shown to be the fact. The whole tendency of ethnological investigation for the last half century has been to narrow the geographical areas occupied by the Black races.

Not so long ago it was supposed, in a general way, that all of Africa, ancient and modern, was essentially Nigritian in its populations. This has now been shown to be [wholly incorrect. All of North Africa above the twentieth parallel has been entirely excluded from he classification. This large part of the continent has belonged in the past - and so belongs in the present - to the Hamitic races, and, perhaps, in a smaller measure to the Semites. The limits of the Black race have thus been narrowed on the north to the inner tropics. The remainder of the continent, except on the east, belongs to the Blacks - though the southern part, below the Tropic of Capricorn, has had an ambiguous ethnography, the true character of which is not yet definitely ascertained. We may thus say in general terms that the Western, or African, division of the Black races is confined to the intertropical spaces of the Dark Continent.

As to the Eastern division of the Black races, the same narrowing tendency in its boundaries may be observed. It was formerly supposed that the south of India for as far as the twentieth parallel north was dominated by Black peoples, whereas we now know that only the extreme part of that great peninsula was touched by the true Blacks in their distribution eastward. In like manner the Indonesian islands were formerly assigned to the Blacks, whereas subsequent inquiry has shown that the Malays have their ethnic relationships with the Brown races of Southeastern Asia. Only Australia and the Papuan parts of New Guinea, with certain associated points of land belonging to Melanesia, remain as the true seats of the Black distribution eastward.

There are thus seen to be in a general way only two principal branches of the Black race, namely, the Western, or Nigritian, branch distributed through equatorial and Southern Africa ; and the Eastern, or Australian, branch, distributed in Australia, Papua, and the smaller islands of Melanesia. The limits of the race, as a whole, are thus narrowed, both latitudinally and longi- tudinally, especially the former. The uttermost eastern dispersion of the Black division of mankind reaches as far as the Fiji islands, under the iSoth meridian of Greenwich, while the Western departure goes out as far as Cape Verde, about longitude 17 degrees W. The northern barrier of the race reaches geographically the Sahara, in Africa, about the 20th parallel, and the southernmost point of the distribution is in Tasmania, in 42 degrees South.

The next general observation relative to the emplacement of the Black race is the comparative unimportance of the countries occupied thereby. Of these, the greatest potency is doubtlessly in Equatorial Africa. That part of the world, however, has thus far remained unclaimed by civilization, although Northern and Northeastern Africa have been the seats of some of the oldest, most famous, and most important, as well as the most highly civilized, nations of the ancient world.

After Africa, Australia is by far the most important of the countries having an original population of Blacks. While it would not be proper to depreciate Australia as a seat of civilization, it must nevertheless be admitted that a large part of that island-continent is un- reclaimable, and that the whole of it is so greatly divided by broad oceans from the continental parts of the world as to place the country at a great disadvantage in the competition for preeminence.

As to New Guinea, the island is neither large enough nor well enough emplaced to give it a great importance in the general survey of the earth's habitable parts. It will thus be .seen that, on the whole, the geographical areas held originally, and in most part to the present time, by the Black races are the least consequential of the countries of the earth.

Our next general observation relates to the race itself, and its comparative rank in the general category of mankind. The Black division of human kind holds by far the lowest level of any of our species. Its emergence from the total obscurity of unrecorded paganism and merely animal stages of progress has been so slight as scarcely to mark a stage in the forward march. Beyond this the other races have gone forth on vast excursions to enlightenment and power. They have passed te borders of the physical and material, and have entered the intellectual life. They have organized powerful communities, nations, states, kingdoms, and dominions, and have made the thing which, for lack of better name, we call history.

This the Blacks have never done. It is a melancholy fact that they have no history. True, this may be said in almost equal degree of many of those other peoples whom we designate as aborigines. Aye, more; it is doubtlessly true, or was true, at some former period of all the aborigines of the earth, and therefore true of the human race itself.

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Still another general observation respecting the Black race, as such, has reference to its antiquity; that is, to the relative position which it occupies in the general scheme of mankind. More simply, the question stands thus : Is the Black division of the human race older or younger than the other branches of the human family? Strangely enough, arguments seemingly valid may be discovered on both sides of this question. Historically and ethnologically it would appear that the Black race is the oldest division of the human family. In former parts of the present work we have held to this contention, showing that the native seat of the human race was in that part of the world from which the Blacks have evidently proceeded. From that situation all the other races are far off; that is, the Ruddy and the Brown races have seemingly made their way to great distances from that center out of which only the whole human family could have arisen. This is seemingly a Black origin rather than any other. It would thus appear that the other races have arisen from a Black stem, have branched therefrom; have differentiated from an older stock of darker and still darker hue down to the complexion of blackness.

The reasoning would be that the lighter and still lighter color of the different races is the result of the remotest development ethnologically, chronologically, and geographically. Such reasoning would point clearly to the conclusion that the Black race was the first of humanity to rise out of merely animal conditions; the first to receive the rudiments of reason, and of those instincts and sentiments that are above the horizon of the beasts ; the first to stand in a situation toward which the uplifted prehensile hand of the chimpanzee was stretched forth to grasp the heel of a true humanity.

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Posts: 8891 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

This is a another pernicious way for afrocentrists to claim anything they want despite genetic evidence not supporting their wishes. The racist and fetishist BrandonP being aware that no ancient sample support the idea of a black north africa or even black near east now tries to imply they could still "look" black by using extreme examples and exceptions.

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As I've pointed out before, there is absolutely no reason to group people only by the level of melanin they have. Again answer this : what's the point of calling both negritos and sub-saharan africans "black" ? It would make more sense to restrict "black" to genotype/geography than simply skin color.

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Because 'black' is a label describing COLOR NOT geography NOR genetics, you moron!! LMAO We know you are so negrophobic your poor little mind can't even accept this basic ounce of reason or logic. This is why all sane people have no problem calling Andamanese, Australian Aborigines, or even Nile Valley Africans all 'black' if they share the same levels of melanin. Nobody said that the label has anything to do with genetics!

And again Egyptians are not only 'black' in color by genetically African and therefore black African.

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged |