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ausar
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Egypt in Nubia and vice versa
An exhibition featuring photographs of the dismantling and re-erection of the temples of Abu Simbel held in the Egyptian Museum last month reminds Jill Kamil of the debate fuelled during the UNESCO salvage operations

<_her1.htm > <_her1.htm >Click to view caption <_her1.htm >
Nubian rendition of Ramses II in the temple at Gerf Hussein; map of Nubia; pyramids of kings and queens of Kush at Gabal Barkal; the incense burner with Pharaonic motifs found in Nubia; part of a letter written by a homesick Egyptian in Nubia to his son at Thebes
An exhibition featuring photographs of the dismantling and re-erection of the temples of Abu Simbel held in the Egyptian Museum last month reminds Jill Kamil of the debate fuelled during the UNESCO salvage operations
Today we remember the dramatic dismantling, transportation and reconstruction of the great temples of Nubia, now tourist attractions at their relocated sites at home and abroad. We tend to forget the specialised studies carried out by international experts who worked there between 1958 and 1971, when the High Dam was completed, that cast light on Nubia's many cultures. So many blanks in the history of the region were filled in during those years that more is known about the indigenous cultures of Nubia than many archaeological zones in the world, even in Egypt.
I recall the debate initiated on the relationship between Africa and Ancient Egypt when the Oriental Institute of Chicago's mission at Qustul made an unusual discovery. An incense burner was found in Nubia that dated to the dawn of history, 3100 BC or even earlier, and which caused great curiosity because of its engraving. It showed a seated ruler wearing what appeared to be the White Crown of Upper Egypt, a palace portal, and hawk-motifs that were later to become symbols of Pharaonic rule in Egypt. Some scholars saw this as proof that a pre-dynastic object had made its way from Egypt to Nubia, others as evidence that the kingship ideal originated in Nubia. The discovery, anyway, along with studies of various cemeteries in Nubia, modified future attitudes towards cultural heritage and, on the long run, gave rise to an Afrocentric outlook.
It certainly appears that the long relationship, and inter-relationship, between Egypt and Nubia gave rise to a shared heritage, a unique experience that endured over the millennia.
What is known as the A-group cemeteries found in Nubia represent its Neolithic culture of between 3500 and 2800 BC, and extended along the whole length of Lower Nubia and even beyond the Second Cataract about 200 kilometres south of Aswan. Archaeologists found thousands of graves containing a wide variety of pottery, leather garments, ostrich-feather fans, copper weapons and palettes of quartz, all of which indicated the level of civilisation reached by the Nubians. It was similar to, but different from, that of the Egyptians.
However, after the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt the Egyptian culture advanced rapidly and Nubia was left far behind. The Pharaohs of the early dynasties (3050-2613 BC) made swift progress, and soon set their sights on Nubia's mineral wealth. The Pharaoh Djer left an inscription at the entrance to the Second Cataract showing that he had journeyed well into Nubia and, on the summit of a conical hill known today as Gabal Sheikh Suleiman, he left a record of a military expedition in his reign in which he captured two towns.
The requirements of a highly developed civilisation demanded raw materials and other products that were not readily available in Egypt, and these were imported from neighbouring territories. Relations between the agriculturally impoverished but mineral-rich land of Nubia and Egypt actually developed early on. During the Pyramid Age (2613-2181 BC) Nubia's mineral wealth was actively exploited by Egypt's Pharaohs. At a copper-smelting settlement at Buhen, royal names on mud seals included those of the Pharaohs Khafre and Menkaure of the Fourth Dynasty, and Userkaf, Sahure, Neferirkare and Djedkare of the Fifth.
The Nubians resisted the exploitation, but when they discovered that they could neither drive off nor kill the intruders they finally awoke to the advantages of trade. Egyptians satisfied their mineral requirements and opened markets even further south, resulting in the acquisition of such valued commodities as ivory, ebony, ostrich feathers, panther skins and gums, while in exchange the Nubians were provided with Egypt's agricultural surplus, including grain, oil and honey.
An interesting and important observation made by missions working in Nubia in the 1960s was an apparent attempt by the early Pharaohs to control Lower Nubia by creating centres of permanent occupation, even as far south as Kerma, the gateway to the vast riches of the inner Africa.
One of the most rewarding archaeological concessions, and one that identified thousands of sites in Nubia from pre-dynastic times through to the Christian era, was that of the Scandinavian joint expedition comprising Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, under mission head Torgy Save- Soderbergh of Uppsala University. Through the mission's excavations at Debeira, on the east bank of the Nile north of Wadi Halfa, it was possible to trace the mysterious C-Group culture from its development to its unexplained extinction more than a thousand years later.
It appears that between 2300 and 1500 BC, simultaneously with the disintegration of Egypt into warring city states during the so-called First Intermediate Period after the fall of the Old Kingdom, a pastoral people known as the C-group emerged in Nubia. The standard of their pottery and other objects in their cemeteries reveals a more advanced standard of culture than the earlier A- group. They appear to have been sedentary cattle owners, perhaps descendants of cattle-breeders who roamed around the Sahara desert and who drifted towards the Nile Valley when conditions became difficult due to increasing desertification. These people were probably responsible for the thousands of drawings of cattle on the rocks of Nubia. Indeed, cattle were frequently buried around their graves, and the long horns of cattle decorated their pottery.
Save-Soderbergh long believed that there was a connection between the Egyptian fortresses at the Second Cataract and the C-group people, who were first buried in shallow graves surrounded by stone rings but later built more elaborate stone- lined chambers in the middle of a round stone structure complete with chapel. He concluded that they were the very people whose presence represented a threat to Egypt's Middle Kingdom Pharaohs and inspired them to build vast fortifications to protect their interests.
Indeed, the Middle Kingdom Pharaohs (2122- 1786 BC) were so anxious to keep their trade routes open and secure that Amenemhet I built a fortress in the Second Cataract region at Semna; Amenemhet II established a trading post as far south as Kerma; and Senusert III fixed the southern frontier of Egypt at Semna, just above the Second Cataract. The great fortresses of Mirgissa, Semna, Buhen and Uronarti were constructed on natural elevations. According to Sir Alan Gardiner on the basis of a papyrus found at Thebes, which recorded the names of Egyptian fortresses, no fewer than eight were constructed in this region, a testimonial to the solidarity of Egyptian control of its southern possession. In short, Nubia was colonised by Egypt.
Unlike barren Lower Nubia, Upper Nubia or Kush (northern Sudan) was fertile and rich in natural resources. Its people, the Medjay, were vigorous and courageous and strongly resisted Egyptian occupation. They were finally suppressed by Pharaoh Senusert III. His army was aided by friendly Nubians -- frequently recruited for the Egyptian army -- who celebrated the victory by turning Senusert into a national hero. A temple was built in his honour, and became the focal point of a flourishing Egyptian community.
Generation after generation of Egyptian soldiers and settlers lived in Nubia, slowly spreading Egyptian traditions, technological skills and religious beliefs. Through their domination of the region, Egyptians were not only assured of the fruits of this great gold and copper-producing country, but were furthermore in an ideal position to trade for other prized commodities further south. The Egyptian fortresses of Nubia served as symbols of Egyptian military power, but they were also depots for imported materials. This lasted until the Hyksos occupation of Egypt, when many were burned or abandoned.
One archaeological team has gone a long way towards solving a long-standing puzzle: why the military commanders of the Middle Kingdom chose a dangerous stretch of the Second Cataract to construct their fortresses. This was solved at Mirgissa fortress by a mission under the direction of the French scholar Jean Vercoutter. When Vercoutter arrived at the site the massive fortification was covered by sand drifts, and for five consecutive years his expedition worked to clear the area. They were finally rewarded in 1964 when, in the upper fort, they found what is regarded as the single most important object ever found at the site. It was a wooden stele, which bore a text "Hathor, Lady of Ikn". It confirmed Vercoutter's conviction that Mirgissa was the long-sought Egyptian entrepot in Nubia, ideally situated for trade, where a popular Egyptian goddess was worshipped by the Egyptian community.
Fired with enthusiasm, the mission subsequently surveyed the desert for miles around. They studied the river bank in search of a harbour, docks, and perhaps warehouses. After clearing one small, partly plundered cemetery the mission decided to excavate the whole necropolis, and this resulted in a rare discovery. They found a cache of some 3,000 "execration" texts, that is to say fragments of pottery bearing the names of many of the people regarded by the Egyptians as enemies. Not far distant, four deliberately broken statuettes of prisoners were discovered, as well as a human skull laid on a dish, and nearby were a flint knife and a broken pot. The discovery of the texts, with lists of foreign countries and peoples in Asia and Africa, has already enriched the study of magical rites associated with foundation deposits of temples in Egypt and Nubia.
The Middle Kingdom came to an end with the Hyksos invasion, and during the period of decline from the XIIIth to XVIIth dynasties (1786-1567 BC), Lower Nubia took advantage of Egypt's weakness and regained its freedom. By the time the Hyksos were finally expelled by a powerful Theban family which founded the XVIIIth Dynasty, the Pharaohs had to re-establish a presence there.
The New Kingdom (1567-1080 BC) was marked a period of substantial imperial expansion in western Nubia and Kush. Ramses II, the most prolific of temple builders, constructed many temples in Nubia between the First Cataract at Aswan and Second. From north to south, they were located at Beit Al-Wali, Gerf Hussein, Wadi As-Sebua, Derr, Abu Simbel and Aksha. Each of these temples, saved from inundation and now tourist attractions, had a sizable community to support it and, in their original positions, had several features in common. Initially a series of free-standing statues led from the banks of the river to the cliff face, into which the temple was cut. Their location in relation to the river, along with the resident communities, indicates a shift from occupation with military garrisons housed in great fortresses to a life of peaceful trade and commerce.
Egypt's technological skills and religious traditions were introduced deep into Nubia. Its influence gradually spread southwards to the Fourth Cataract, and between 1000 and 300 BC Napata was yet another Egyptian settlement. So in the confusion that followed the death of the high priest Hrihor, who had usurped the throne of Egypt and declared himself to be ruler of Upper and Lower Egypt -- although the Delta was actually ruled by a strong family in Tanis, and divided rule meant weakened rule -- Kush seized the opportunity to become increasingly independent.
At last it was a time of glory for Egypt's southern neighbour. Liberated from Egyptian domination, the Kushites set up an independent kingdom at Napata. It was African in origin but Egyptian in tradition and religious belief, and a Pharaonic- style court was installed. Egypt's "great god" Amun-Re was worshipped in a temple built near Gabal Barkal, a sacred mountain near the Fourth Cataract, and the kings styled themselves with Pharaonic titles. They were proud and ambitious, and when they observed the slow deterioration of the Egyptian government the Kushite King Piankhy (730-663 BC) was encouraged to move northwards into Egypt.
With a strong army, Piankhy marched northwards, not as an invader, since his people had long absorbed Egyptian culture, but as a liberator. He regarded himself as a true Pharaoh, bound to free Egypt from the forces of barbarism and re- establish lost virtues. The Kushite Dynasty in Egypt, the XXVth, lasted from 750-656 BC, and Piankhy and his descendants were able to bring about internal stability such that they built temples and revitalised society. How long they might have remained on the throne of Egypt is difficult to say, but with the Assyrian march on the Delta in 671 BC they were driven back to their own land where, at Napata, their kingdom prospered until about 600 BC.
Why the Napatan rulers decided to move their capital further south, to Meroe (Shendi) is not clear. Nevertheless there, in a fertile bend in the river, free from invasion and well placed for trade, in an area rich in iron ore and in wood for iron-smelting, they developed a culture that was at once a continuation of the Egyptian-influenced Napatan culture and a totally individual African culture, the Meroitic. Egyptian influence was strong in Meroitic religion and art, and the kings and queens were buried in pyramids at Meroe. The Meroitic language is still not fully understood.
While Egypt succumbed to two Persian invasions (in 525 and 345 BC) the Meroitic Empire flourished and slowly expanded through northern Sudan and Upper Nubia. By the reign of Ptolemy IV (222-204 BC), the Meroitic King Argamanic controlled the Nile to within sight of Elephantine Island.
Relations between Nubia and Ptolemaic Egypt were good, but the situation changed when the Romans occupied Egypt in 30 BC. The Meroites and Roman authorities came into conflict over the control of Lower Nubia, especially when nomadic tribes from the Western Desert increasingly disrupted the lives of Nile Valley communities and interrupted trade.
Eventually a peace treaty was signed, turning all of Lower Nubia into a buffer zone. Despite the alliance, however, there was continued conflict between the proud and independent Meroites and the Roman garrisons in Egypt. On one occasion the Meroites defeated Caesar's soldiers and actually occupied Aswan. They did not stay long. The Roman army drove them out and they returned to their own land, where their kingdom already showed signs of disintegration.
Between the mid-fourth and mid-sixth centuries AD, a new X-group, or Ballana culture, emerged in Nubia. Its origin is of doubtful origin and is the subject of controversy among scholars. Some are of the opinion that they were the troublesome people known to the Romans as Blemmyes, a warlike tribe of the Eastern Desert. Others identify the X- group with a people known as the Nobodai, who migrated into Nubia from western Sudan. The tombs of the kings found by British scholar Walter Emery in the 1930s contained the richest grave goods ever found in Nubia, now in the Nubia Museum at Aswan. They include silver crowns inland with semi-precious stones, bronze and silver vessels, jewellery, weapons and furniture. Servants were buried in the tombs, as well as animals including horses with saddles and harnesses elaborately decorated with silver.
Only slowly did Nubia accept the Christian faith. From 550-1500 AD three Christian kingdoms were established along the Nile between modern Khartoum and Aswan, with Faras as capital of northern Nubia. The Nubian population increased and prospered. Many churches were built and some temples were converted into churches.
In 652, as the Arab empire expanded, a treaty was drawn up between the Muslim rulers and Nubian Christians which resulted in good relations for some 500 years. However, the fortunes of Christian Nubia eventually declined as it came more and more under the control of Islam. In the 14th century a bishop was enthroned as Qasr Ibrim, but Christianity by that time lingered on only in pockets which further decreased with the passage of time.
Clearly the material remains of Nubian culture were not individual and isolated as previously supposed, but form an almost continuous development, while the function and purpose of Egypt's great monuments in Nubia are more than architectural and artistic masterpieces.
Recommended reading:
D O'Connor, Ancient Nubia: Egypt's Revival in Africa. University Museum Pennsylvania, USA, 1993.
T Save-Soderbergh, Temples and Tombs of Ancient Nubia. Thames & Hudson, London, 1987.
J M Taylor, Egypt and Nubia, British Museum Press, London, 1991.
Jocelyn Gohary, Guide to the Nubian Monuments on Lake Nasser. The American University in Cairo Press, 1998. http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/691/heritage.htm


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
It certainly appears that the long relationship, and inter-relationship, between Egypt and Nubia gave rise to a shared heritage, a unique experience that endured over the millennia.

Thought Writes:

They didn't have a "Long Relationship", they derived from the same source AND had a Long Relationship.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

They didn't have a "Long Relationship", they derived from the same source AND had a Long Relationship.


I agree! If you read the details, what they really and honestly point to is that they came from the same source.


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Ozzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

They didn't have a "Long Relationship", they derived from the same source AND had a Long Relationship.


I agree they may have come from the same source (stock of people), although that source I don’t think has been established as yet, but by the statement "derived" and a "long relationship" do you mean you feel their culture was of the same source as well?

I know its almost contradictory saying a people came from the same source but did not share a culture, but from what I know the Archeological finds of first the a-group Nubians and contempery Upper Egypt, as well as contempery Lower Egypt were distinct from one another. So much so that their styles of pottery, burial, and tools were easily identified. If they came from the same stock (The Upper Egyptians and Nubians) then a significant time span must be assumed for these groups to establish an identity of their own in regards to artifacts. Artifacts in the Neolithic do not show a rapid change when groups of the same people are isolated from one another. And indeed if their is consistent contact their is no change.

Does anyone have an explanation for the difference in culture if they came from the same stock?

PS: Keino, I did try to find the paper I promise to send you but I could not find the hard copy. It’s been boxed for 6 years, so it has to be here somewhere. Just wanted you to know I had not forgotten just can’t find it!


Ozzy


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ausar
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Racially,the Badarian,Naqada,and other cultures are not much different from the Nubians. New findings are sheding light upon the simialrity between Upper Egyptians and Nubian people. This is showed with the Qustal incense burner which is of Nubian manufacture and not of Egyptian manufacture.

The only deviation in difference between Upper Egypt and Nubia is in C-group which I am convinced mught just be A-group people who settled this region during the 6th dyansty. I also believe that Kerma culture is also a continuation of A-group.


Early Khatoum pottery from Sudan is very similar to Badarian and Fayum pottery. AJ Arkell even suggested a common origin for both of these people.


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Ozzy
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Researchers are so confindant of the differences in the cultures that they in fact date graves by their differences, ranging from the A-group upwards as the Egyptian influence becomes aparent then untimately overwelming. The subsiquesnt carbon dating is always supportive of the initial dating by cultural differences. So I dont know how one can say their is little difference in the cultures apart from the C-group, this is just not the case. The C- group is also significantly different from the A-group in regards to their artifacts, teir pottery is far superior to the a-group.

The disapearance of the A-group should not go without a thought either, as current data shows as the Egyptian influence increases the distinct Nubian a-group disapears. It may be that the c-group are the ancestors of the A-group but if this be the case their development is achieved somewere else till they appear as c-group. The pan grave need to be investigated more also, as they do not share common culture either. Are they from the same stock too? I wonder.

Ozzy


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Horemheb
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Its only true to a point. Obviously any neighboring countries have a close relationship. I'm sure AE and Libya did as well. We know AE traded extensively in the eastern med since at least the old kingdom so extensive relationships were formed there as well. Some cultural association with Nubia is proobable as well but not so much with the ruling elite. Egyptian civilization in the dynastic times started in Memphis and spread south. Example, Rahotep (son of Khufu) gives a clear view of the old kingdom's med. origins among the elite. What cultural associations did exist with the Nubians were evident in the very far south among the lower classes. AE's went to pains in their art work to clearly distinguish themselves from captive Nubians.
Since the Nubians clearly copied AE civilization we can say that these Memphite elite really had a big hand in brininging an advanced civilization to all of northeast Africa.

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ausar
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No,the ancient Egyptian culture started from Upper Egypt and spread into Lower Egypt over time. This occured when royals from Upper Egypt married into families from the Delta. Nubians didn't copy Egyptian traditions but modified them and incorporated their own. You still ignore the Qustal incense burner which shows kingship developed in Nubia and Egypt around the same period. No incense burners were manufactured in Egypt. A-group remains match that of C-group remains according to Tracey Prowse and Lovwell.


The only time Men-Nefer[which by the way was established by southerners] became important was during the 4th and 5th dyansty. Already by this time Kerma culture in Lower and Upper Nubia existed without Egyptian influce. Read Charles Bonnet on this information.


The remains in Giza aduring the 4th dyansty shows affinities with southern Egyptians. This is the case with southern types that show up along side the Delta types in Lower Egypt.


Horemheb,stop trying to throw you fantasy of Mediterranean elite ruling a dark skinned Egyptian mass. This is not supported by physical anthropology or by even sculptured reliefs. You ignore that the dyanstic civlization started with those Lower class southerners and that Snefru's father Huni was from the south. In a previous post I even pointed out to you that Ra-hotep had no connection to the royal family and neither does his wife.

Plus I think I have explained before that traditions cultures and even pottery in Egypt differened from region to region. Different nomes had different culture,but you can't say they were from a different stock. A eminanet Egyptologist Michael Hoffman says the following:


Dr. Michael A. Hoffman. In reference to the ancient
peoples, region and border of Nubia he goes on to explain that the ancient
population of Nubia, (from Aswan southward) differs not from the ancient
population of Upper Egypt. Hoffman writes:

"From predynastic times down to the New Kingdom when Egypt actually
occupied the land, Lower Nubia remained a region of few social and
economic distinctions and comparatively low population density. The reason
for her tendency to lag behind her rich northern neighbor has sometimes
been explained in terms of racial inferiority. But in physical affinity
the peoples of this region cannot be differentiated consistently from
those of southern Upper Egypt. An environmental explanation is more
accurate." (pg.256)

Obviously Southern Upper Egyptians are and were not very distinct from Lower Nubian populations.

That is why I stated
earlier in the previous post, that yes, had we good depictions of the
First-Second Dynasty rulers, who originated from Nekhen, way south in
Upper Egypt, they should be dark brown in complexion as the people in
those areas were in all subsequent periods down to the present day.

So again, if there were such individuals in the north, they well might
be descendants of these royals from Nekhen. Such may be the case with
Djoser, the first king of whom we have portrait quality statues and
reliefs, and yes, known to be a son of Khasekhemwy, the last ruler of
Dynasty 2, he does appear like a southern Egyptian in type.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago


--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu




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Ozzy
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The Nubians didnt clearly copy anything. If you study the data its a cultural invasion with some resistance.

Ozzy


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ausar
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Here is some more information on Kerma and Yam during the Old Kingdom:


Further knowleadge of the Sudanese archeological sites suggests that
the kingdom of Kerma was one of the southern destinations of Egyptian
expeditions during the Sixth dyansty perhaps the famous 'Land of Yam''
mentioned by Harkhuf govenor of Elephantine and head of several of
these expeditions.
Whatever the case,the town of Kerma was infull development at that
time,and already had a system of defense.
page 89
Sudan: Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile
by Dietrich Wildung (Editor), Peter Der Manuelian (Translator),
Kathleen Guillaume (Translator), Dietrich Wilding (Editor)

Harkhuf's Story
Between 2500-2200 BCE, Egyptian inscriptions sometimes mention a
southern land called Yam. Many years ago, archaeologists discovered
the tomb of an Egyptian caravan leader named Harkhuf at Aswan. In a
long inscription carved on its walls, Harkhuf boasts that he made
four journeys to Yam to bring back precious products from there:
ivory, leopard skins, ostrich eggs and feathers, ebony logs, various
vegetable products, boomerangs, and other things. On his way to Yam,
Harkhuf traveled on the desert roads in order to avoid the chiefs of
Lower Nubia who might have robbed him.
On his way south, his 300 donkeys carried not only the gifts sent by
the pharaoh for the king of Yam, but also all the food and water
needed by the animals and handlers. On his way back, his donkeys were
fully loaded with rich Nubian products and were unable to carry any
food and water, so they had to travel along the Nile. Because of the
danger of attack along this route, Harkhuf hired an army from Yam to
protect the caravan until it arrived safely in Egypt.
Archaeologists believe that Yam was near the modern town of Kerma,
Sudan, where many ancient Egyptian objects from this time have been
found.
Foundations of a round building at Kerma thought to be an early
palace. It dates to about the time of Harkhuf's travels. Possibly
this was the residence of the king of Yam whom Harkhuf visited. Like
many important royal African palaces of only a century ago, this
building was made of mud brick and had an overhanging pointed roof
supported by wooden posts.
Photo courtesy of the Sudan Archaeological Mission of the University
of Geneva, Switzerland.
On his last journey to Yam, Harkhuf brought back to Egypt a pygmy
from the "land of the horizon-dwellers", far beyond Nubia. Pygmies
were rarely seen in Egypt since they came from Central Africa, but
they were well known for their wonderful dancing. This picture shows
an Egyptian ivory toy representing three pygmy dancers connected to a
string. The figures "danced" when the string was pulled. Dynasty 12,
about 1990-1780 BCE.
Courtesy the Egyptian Museum, Cairo. http://www.dignubia.org/maps/timeline/bce-2300b.htm


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ausar
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Nubian A- and C-Groups

Principal Investigator: Dr. Nancy C. Lovell

Supported by grants from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada and the University of Alberta

BACKGROUND

Nubia served in antiquity as an important north-south corridor for trade and military contacts with civilizations of Egypt and the Ethiopian highlands, and as a route east to the Red Sea and west through the Chad depression to West Africa. Much of our knowledge of ancient Nubia comes from a series of archaeological surveys and salvage excavations that began in 1907, prior to the raising of the first Aswan dam. The last salvage campaign was directed by UNESCO and involved 27 countries in excavation and preservation work during the 1960s and 1970s along a stretch of the Nile River that was to be flooded by the construction of the Aswan High Dam, south of Aswan.

The skeletal remains examined in this study of biological affinities and palaeopathology were excavated by the Scandinavian Joint Expedition in 1963-1964 and are now curated at the Laboratory of Biological Anthropology at the University of Copenhagen. The A-Group sample is from Site 277 and dates to the Classic/Terminal A-Group, corresponding to the Egyptian protodynastic or Archaic periods, the time of Egyptian unification.

The C-Group remains are from Site 179, which is most likely contemporaneous with the First Intermediate Period or early Middle Kingdom of dynastic Egyptian civilization.

PALAEOPATHOLOGY

The results of this study reveal significantly greater frequencies of caries, periapical abscesses and AMTL in the C-Group compared to the preceding A-Group. More severe tooth wear in the C-Group, which traditionally would be interpreted as consistent with a hunting-gathering subsistence base, can instead be attributed to grit in the diet resulting from the processing of agricultural produce with sandstone and quartzite mortars and grinding stones, and perhaps also to the intentional addition of grit to grain in order to facilitate grinding.

Other pathological conditions evident in the cranial sample are cribra orbitalia and porotic hyperostosis, which are usually considered to indicate anemia.
<http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Enlovell/images/Nubiaanemia.jpg>

Publications

1994 Beckett, Sean and Nancy C. Lovell. Dental Disease Evidence for Agricultural Intensification in The Nubian C-Group. International Journal of Osteoarchaeology 4:223-240

BIOLOGICAL AFFINITIES

Data from cranial and dental non-metric traits from Sites 277 and 179 were used to assess biological differentiation between the A-Group and C-Group. Results indicate biological continuity, consistent with in situ evolution (although the problem of small samples requires that these results be accepted with caution). Although the diffusion of ideas of material culture into the area through military and trade contacts is likely, any archaeologically visible cultural differences are more consistent with local cultural evolution than with the importation of a new cultural system through the migration of a foreign population into the area.
<http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Enlovell/images/Nubiacarabelli.jpg>

Publications

1996 Prowse, Tracy L and Nancy C. Lovell. Concordance of Cranial and Dental Non-Metric Traits and Evidence for Endogamy in Ancient Egypt. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 101:237-246

1995 Johnson, Andrew L. and Nancy C. Lovell. Dental Morphological Evidence for Biological Continuity Between the A-Group and C-Group Periods in Lower Nubia. International Journal of Osteoarchaeology 5:368-376

1995 Prowse, Tracy L. and Nancy C. Lovell. Biological Continuity Between the A- and C-Groups in Lower Nubia: Evidence from Cranial Non-metric Traits. International Journal of Osteoarchaeology 5:103-114

Presentations

1995 Biological Affinities and State Formation in Ancient Egypt. Scholar's Day, Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities, Toronto

1995 Biological Continuity Between the Lower Nubian A- and C-Groups. Annual Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists, Oakland (refereed abstract)

Theses

1994 Johnson, Andrew. MA "Biological variation and population affinity in the ancient Nile Valley: An analysis of dental morphological traits"

1994 Prowse, Tracy. MA "Biological affinities of ancient Egyptians and Nubians: An analysis of cranial nonmetric traits"

Return to Egyptian Skeletal Biology Project page
Return to main research page

http://www.ualberta.ca/~nlovell/nubia.htm


Here is some data on A-group and C-group


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Horemheb
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I knew i would get Ausar fired up with that post. Ausar, first the producers and writers of 'The Greatest Pharoah's' for A&E obviously thaought Rahotep was the King's son, they said it point blank. I have seen it other places as well but that show was consulted by a team of Egyptologists (see credits). Just had a conversation a week ago with an Anthropology professor that said point blank that AE is a "near eastern civilization with SOME African influence." He went on to say that the Africanist viewpoint IGNORES the continual migration into Egypt through the delta that went on for literally thousands of years. He also stated that while there was always a black presence in upper egypt (supporting your view) that the precentage of blacks as a total percent of the population is vastly higher now due to northerly migration.
In other words you can't take the fact that there were neolithic blacks in Egypt and translate that into the Memphite old dynastic culture.

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ausar
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What was the name of this professor and what work has he done in peer reviwed journals. Evidence shows that most of the Egyptian population lived mostly in Upper Egypt;while in the north most of the population most of the population was concentrated in the Delta.

While I don't doubt that Dyansty IV,V,and VI probabaly originated in the northern regions. What is neglected is that Men-Nefer was founded by southerners as was the burials places in Saqqura. We also see that VI dyansty families married southners from the south around Abydos. Weni the Elder rises up to power as a general and allows Pepi to marry one of his daughters.


See the following references:


From Petrie onwards,it was rewguarly suggested,despite the evidence
of Pre dyanstic cultures,Egyptian civlization of the 1st dyansty
appeared suddently and must therfore have been instroduced by an
invading foreign ''race''. Since the 1970's however excavations at
bautu and nekhen have clearly ,demonstrated the indigenous Upper
Egyptian roots of early civlization in egypt. While there is
certainly evidence of foreign contact in the fourth millennium
B.C.,this was not in the form of millitary invasion

page 65

Oxford History of Ancient egypt
Ian Shaw


Egyptologist Mark Lehner of Harvard University points out that other elements of the Nabta sites suggest connections with Egyptian patterns of thought. Malville and Wendorf had noted cattle tumuli and a sculptured stone "with some resemblance to a cow" at Nabta. "Cattle iconography was still extremely important to the pharaohs of the Old Kingdom," says Lehner. And, like several of the megalithic alignments and the solstitial window at Nabta, the temples at Abydos and the pyramids at Saqqara, Giza, and Abusir are arranged along roughly northeast-southwest lines. But Lehner urges caution in making a connection between Neolithic nomads and early Egyptian civilization: "It makes sense, but not in a facile, direct way--you can't go straight from these megaliths to the pyramid of Djoser."

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/nubia.html


Karl Butzer has estimated that two areas of greatest population
denisty in dyanstic times were between Luxor{Waset} and Aswan
{Elephantine} at the first cataract,and from Medium at the fayum
entrance northwards to the apex of the Delta.

IN between was Middle Egypt,a geogrpahic buffer zone with a lower
population density. It is worth bearing in mind that the total
population of egypt at the time the Giza pyramids were built is
estimated to have been 1.6 million,compared with 58 million in Ad
1995.

Page 7

Mark Lehner

The Complete Pyramids



Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
Researchers are so confindant of the differences in the cultures that they in fact date graves by their differences, ranging from the A-group upwards as the Egyptian influence becomes aparent then untimately overwelming. Ozzy

Thought Writes:

It is difficult to evaluate your evidence for this claim without knowing SPECIFICALLY" what these proposed differences are?


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Horemheb
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Ausar, Type in Rhotep, Khufu into your search engine. Sites will pop up from everywhere showing Rahotep to be the son of Khufu. You might want to take a second look at that subject.
If thats the case it pretty much blows your argument out the window for the old kingdom.

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Ozzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

It is difficult to evaluate your evidence for this claim without knowing SPECIFICALLY" what these proposed differences are?


Here is some info on a- group to compare to C-group, pan grave and contepary upper Egypt. Here we can see differences in even a-group in regional areas.

Read the article on "Invention of Nubia" its worth the read.

I believe the many Nubian cultures did come from the same local people, I also believe that the Upper Egyptians are related geneticaly, and in some ways culturaly, in that they may have both retained the cultural aspects of the hunter gather people they both came from, but I also believe they all developed well before predynistic times their own distinct culures.

I also believe the data shows that Upper Egypt was responsible for the decline of a-group Nubia, and the two were not brothers in arms, so to speak. The "derived from the same source AND had a Long Relationship"
Seems to imply a long running cutluraly shared relationship wich is not the case. The had a "long history".
http://www.arkamani.org/english_files/contents.htm

Their is much more if you would like descriptions of grave differences.

Ozzy

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 24 May 2004).]


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
I believe the many Nubian cultures did come from the same local people, I also believe that the Upper Egyptians are related geneticaly, and in some ways culturaly, in that they may have both retained the cultural aspects of the hunter gather people they both came from, [This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 24 May 2004).]

Thought Writes:

I was allways under the impression that Egyptians and Nubians descend from the neolithic populations in the region that were "hunters", Agriculturalists, cattle and sheep herders and fishers. Not merly hunter gatherers. Perhaps in the mesolithic period, but the Nubian/Egyptian connection is certainly more recent than that, is it not?


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
....but I also believe they all developed well before predynistic times their own distinct culures. [This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 24 May 2004).]

Thought Writes:

Correct, this would be the neolithic period, of course these terms are relative in that evidence exists that saharan neolithic populations were migrating to the Egyptian Nile as late as Naqada II, which was Pre-Dynastic. In fact Hassan and others postulate that the population densities that collected around Nekhen and other areas of Upper Egypt created a strain on natural resources and fostered social complexity.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
[B] I also believe the data shows that Upper Egypt was responsible for the decline of a-group Nubia, and the two were not brothers in arms, so to speak. B]

Thought Writes:

Upper Egyptians fought each other as well. All this proves is that there was a competitive process and that various proto-Kingdoms were assimilated between Naqada II and the end of Dynasty I.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
..... Here we can see differences in even a-group in regional areas.

....Their is much more if you would like descriptions of grave differences.
[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 24 May 2004).]



Thought Writes:

If one were to do a microanalysis one would find grave differences between Upper Egyptian sites as well. This is called "splitting hairs".


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Ozzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I was allways under the impression that Egyptians and Nubians descend from the neolithic populations in the region that were "hunters", Agriculturalists, cattle and sheep herders and fishers. Not merly hunter gatherers. Perhaps in the mesolithic period, but the Nubian/Egyptian connection is certainly more recent than that, is it not?


Yep fair call, the two words were limiting.


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Ozzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Writes:

If one were to do a microanalysis one would find grave differences between Upper Egyptian sites as well. This is called "splitting hairs".


Not so! Even today, one thing that divides cultures is religion. The most simple, and complexed differences in religouse practices(which can be seen in burial practices) can provide a window into the thinking of a people. As you may see from the descriptions there were reginal differences as well. These reginal differences may turn out to be no more than differences forced by the availability of materials but it may turn out to be a legecy from older practices.

The main differences used to seperate the sites range from the materials used to build, the size and shape of the graves, the position the body is placed in the grave, artifacts placed in the grave, treatment of the body, clothing if any, etc. These and many more had great meaning to the people that did them, and this is what seperates people by cultures if not by genetics. The fact they retained or tryied to retain these practices under the influence of another stronger culture shows how great these simple small differences were to them.

Litte differences are not splitting hairs!

Ozzy


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
Not so! Even today, one thing that divides cultures is religion. The most simple, and complexed differences in religouse practices(which can be seen in burial practices) can provide a window into the thinking of a people. As you may see from the descriptions there were reginal differences as well. These reginal differences may turn out to be no more than differences forced by the availability of materials but it may turn out to be a legecy from older practices.

The main differences used to seperate the sites range from the materials used to build, the size and shape of the graves, the position the body is placed in the grave, artifacts placed in the grave, treatment of the body, clothing if any, etc. These and many more had great meaning to the people that did them, and this is what seperates people by cultures if not by genetics. The fact they retained or tryied to retain these practices under the influence of another stronger culture shows how great these simple small differences were to them.

Litte differences are not splitting hairs!

Ozzy


Thought Writes:

My point was that even in Upper Egypt there were grave/burial differences. There were probably differences from village to village. These differences probably evloved into a wide variety of cult sites to worship the natural diversity and cosmology found as early as the neolithic period.


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Ozzy
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I have a friend going to Egypt in a few days, cant believe how cheep! They will be staying around Aswan and Luxor, any suggestions on what they should see outside the normal tourist tracks.

Ozzy


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ausar
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Too bad your friend is not going in November. Tell your friend to visit the West Bank area around areas liie Gurna and Be'rat. The people are most friendly there.

If your friend had went in November then you might have been able to witness the Abul'l Hagag festival which is much like the ancient Opet festival.


Take a Felluca ride also that goes up and down the Nile.


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Ozzy
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Tks Ausar Ill let them know. I hope in the next six months i will be able to do the same. The prices from Spain to Egypt at the moment are extreemly cheap. I just now need the time. My son is now six and he is becoming interested in Egypt, along with "star wars" LOL, He feels that Goerge Lucas stoll the Jedi from egypt, LOL.

Ozzy


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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Yurco got some things right.

Dr. Michael A. Hoffman. In reference to the ancient
peoples, region and border of Nubia he goes on to explain that the ancient
population of Nubia, (from Aswan southward) differs not from the ancient
population of Upper Egypt. Hoffman writes:

"From predynastic times down to the New Kingdom when Egypt actually
occupied the land, Lower Nubia remained a region of few social and
economic distinctions and comparatively low population density. The reason
for her tendency to lag behind her rich northern neighbor has sometimes
been explained in terms of racial inferiority. But in physical affinity
the peoples of this region cannot be differentiated consistently from
those of southern Upper Egypt. An environmental explanation is more
accurate." (pg.256)

Obviously Southern Upper Egyptians are and were not very distinct from Lower Nubian populations.

That is why I stated
earlier in the previous post, that yes, had we good depictions of the
First-Second Dynasty rulers, who originated from Nekhen, way south in
Upper Egypt, they should be dark brown in complexion as the people in
those areas were in all subsequent periods down to the present day.

So again, if there were such individuals in the north, they well might
be descendants of these royals from Nekhen. Such may be the case with
Djoser, the first king of whom we have portrait quality statues and
reliefs, and yes, known to be a son of Khasekhemwy, the last ruler of
Dynasty 2, he does appear like a southern Egyptian in type.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago


--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu


New data- 2009

 -

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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 -

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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Djehuti
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^^ And the very reason why Nubians are now being labeled as "cacasoid" or cacasoid-mixed by the Euronuts. [Embarrassed]
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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A sad documentary on the Nubians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObOKpdGKk8A

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