posted
Sumeria or the Nile Valley? Or are they roughly comtemporaneous? And supercar, what evidence is there that hieroglyphs influenced cuneiform instead of the other way around?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
*sigh* this is the reason why need our search engine back.
Here is just one of the many threads which have answered your question.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
From your thread Djehuti it seems as if all that obisidian was coming from Ethiopia so this says that the Nile Valley People were in close relationship with eachother so Modern Day Ethiopia Sudan and Egypt have close relations.
Maybe writing came from the south of Sudan maybe Ethiopia.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: of course its my personal assumption Supercar what u think the truth needs evidential merit
Yes, facts require "evidential" merit, and I "know" that this is not an option. You cannot simply pass off a "fantasy" as truth.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Sumerian writing is believed to have developed from tokens used to represent farm goods and animals. These tokens represented a cow or pig and farmers would use them to come to an agreement on a mutually beneficial trade. As time went on they discovered they were using too many of these small discs with representations of produce so they made new ones to represent five or ten of something. It was a small step from a representation of "ten cows" to the concept of recording other words and meanings in representational form.
All human development has occurred in these tiny incremental steps. When we see something complicated (or massive) it's a very safe bet that its development was gradual and the result people doing things in their self interest.
Wherever representational writing was first used, it was probably a thing that grew over the years. It was something that started small and spread. Many times the ramifications of such advancements won't even be seen because they sneak up on ius.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sumerian writing is believed to have developed from tokens used to represent farm goods and animals. These tokens represented a cow or pig and farmers would use them to come to an agreement on a mutually beneficial trade. As time went on they discovered they were using too many of these small discs with representations of produce so they made new ones to represent five or ten of something. It was a small step from a representation of "ten cows" to the concept of recording other words and meanings in representational form.
All human development has occurred in these tiny incremental steps. When we see something complicated (or massive) it's a very safe bet that its development was gradual and the result people doing things in their self interest.
Wherever representational writing was first used, it was probably a thing that grew over the years. It was something that started small and spread. Many times the ramifications of such advancements won't even be seen because they sneak up on ius.
Yes, and hence, one would expect to come across "experimentation" or crude efforts leading to more developed ones, which in the case of Sumerians, is lacking. Given that the so-called "Mesopotamian" region has been "archeologically" combed to a relatively greater extent than many other locations across the globe, i.e. aside from the likes of the Nile Valley, one would expect such findings to be relatively forthcoming. Recalling...
quote: He concluded his presentation by noting similarities between specific Egyptian and Mesopotamian objects and suggesting that perhaps there is an initial influence of Egyptian writing on Mesopotamia because there are signs on Mesopotamian objects that are only "readable" from the standpoint of the Egyptian language, but not the Mesopotamian language.
Now, there is someone willing to openly bring up this possibility actually based on archeology discovery. Some, have tried to resist this inevitable conclusion by hypothesizing merely on the account of small tabs [mind you, these are not writing, or even pictographs] used in Mesopotamia supposedly for counting purposes. They claim such tools for counting may have necessitated eventual adoption of writing. Meanwhile they engage in such extreme hypothesizing, NO evidence of writing experimentation in Mesopotamia that predates those in the Nile Valley; matter of fact, based on archeological finds, the Egyptian items date much earlier, and I’ve already presented examples above. Thus, we actually see hieroglyphics precursor within the Nile Valley itself. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003518
Ps - In the above, "tabs" should have been read as "tokens".
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: From your thread Djehuti it seems as if all that obisidian was coming from Ethiopia so this says that the Nile Valley People were in close relationship with eachother so Modern Day Ethiopia Sudan and Egypt have close relations.
Maybe writing came from the south of Sudan maybe Ethiopia.
South Sudan until 50 years ago did not have a written language, You think they were the first humans to write? you guys where are you living, in dream land?
Posts: 1090 | From: Merowe-Nubia | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ "south of Sudan maybe Ethiopia." is not South Sudan.
You talk about writing in South Sudan 50 years ago, but you still can't read, even now.
Rasol
This is harassement.Do you want to be banned?
Discuss the subject, some one say here about people who until 50 years ago and in fact until today don't have really their own written language, that they were the first humans to write. Isn't that need to eb commented on and discussed to find where did he get such info.
Posts: 1090 | From: Merowe-Nubia | Registered: May 2005
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quote: This is harassement.Do you want to be banned?
^ This is trolling, and whining, your only purpose on this forum is to disrupt and vent your racist hatreds.
quote:Discuss the subject
The subject *of this thread* is where writing originated.
Your subject is racist hatred of the Southern Sudanese, which is really re-directed self-hatred in any case.
You are so stupidly obsessed with your petty hatred that you responded to a post about Ethiopia - south of Sudan, with irrelevant remarks about 'southern Sudan'.
You are off topic.
You are trolling.
And you are a complete idiot.
It is you - who cannot read.
You should be banned, as you waste this entire forums time with your sheer stupidity.
Back on topic:
quote:Hikuptah:
From your thread Djehuti it seems as if all that obisidian was coming from Ethiopia so this says that the Nile Valley People were in close relationship with each other so Modern Day Ethiopia Sudan and Egypt have close relations.
Maybe writing came from the south of Sudan maybe Ethiopia.
Early examples of some of the motifs of African writing have been found in the neolithic sahara.
Including the iconography of the animals with their necks intertwined 'seraffes' which is much later found on the narmer palette.
According to linguists, the Afrisan language family itself - which includes Ancient Egyptian and all semitic languages, originated in either what is now Ethiopia or Eastern Sudan *south* of Nubia.
These languages as well as Nilo-saharan languages extend up the nile valley thru southern sudan, ethiopia and into southeastern africa as far south as tanzania, into central africa, and back thru west africa as well.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^^Which means southern Sudan was the source of advanced culture and civilization!!
This is something AMR's mixed up Arabized mind cannot accept. He would likely have an anurism than to accept this fact! LOLPosts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Early examples of some of the motifs of African writing have been found in the neolithic sahara.
The first writing systems were originally created in Saharan Africa. Above is an inscription from Oued Mertoutek, that is associated with the ancient African god called Amun/Amma/Amman. As a result, they share similar signs.
This debate is really a non-issue. Mesopotamian writing originated in Africa.
The first writing used in Egypt appeared in the Sahara and was later used by the Egyptians, before they wrote in hieroglyphics. Below is an inscription from Gebel Sheikh Suleiman that support this view.
As a result, the first real writing of the Sumerians and later Elamites, respectively Proto-Sumerian or Uruk script and linear Elamite writing share symbols first used in the Saharan region of Africa.
Moreover, Col. Rawlinson the deciphere of the cuniform writing system made it clear that the Sumerian people themselves came from Africa.This is supported by the language spoken by the Sumerians and the characters associated with Uruk/ Proto-Sumerian writing.
posted
This is the same as Ethiopic Clyde Winters these characters look just like the Ethiopic. I know Rawlson was speaking about the Ethiopic he used Oromo to decipher some old texts so Clyde were does the Ethiopic fall into this Saharan Alphabet.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
^Just because it looks Ethiopic does not mean it is related! Do not allow yourself to be fooled by Winter's pseudoscholarship. West African Vai has NOTHING to do with proto-Sumerian LOLPosts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It is clear from the archaeological evidence and epigraphic evidence on rocks throughout the Sahara that people associated with the C-Group culture early invented a writing system similar the one we presently fine in use among the Ethiopians.
This may reflect introduction of writing in Ethiopia by people who lived along side C-Group people. This theory is supported by the fact that the Tihama Culture is related to the C-Group culture.
It is very important to note that the state building in Ethiopia had its roots in Africa, not Yemen. Fattovich notes that: A sedentary people, apparently with Afro-Arabian cultural traditions, was settled on the plateau around Asmara (Eritrea) in the late second millennium BC (the ‘Ona Group A’ with red pottery, c. 1500–1000 BC). They were in contact with the Jebel Mokram people of the western lowlands and the coastal ones along the Red Sea. Some finds from ‘Ona Group A’ sites suggest that this population was directly in contact with Egypt through the Red Sea maritime route. The same evidence, recording some chiefs of Punt, might suggest that a complex society arose on the eastern plateau in the mid-second millennium BC (Fig. 5; Tringali 1979; Tringali 1981; Fattovich 1988; Fattovich 1993). Peoples with similar pottery were living along the Eritrean and south Arabian coast of the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden in the mid-second millennium BC (the ‘Tihama Cultural Complex’, c. 1500–1200 BC). Evidence for this has been recorded at Adulis near the Gulf of Zula in Eritrea, Sihi in the Saudi Tihama, Wadi Urq’ in the Yemeni Tihama, and Subr near Aden. The pottery from these sites shows some similarities to that from the Kerma and ‘C-Group’ of the middle Nile valley. The lithic industry is similar to that of the ‘Gash Group’ at Kassala, pointing to a possible early influence from the African hinterland (Fig. 5; Paribeni 1907; Doe 1963, Doe 1971; Zarins, Al-Jawarad Murad & Al-Yish 1981; Zarins & Al-Badr 1986; Tosi 1986; Tosi 1987). Comparable pottery occurs in the lower strata at Matara on the eastern Tigrean plateau, suggesting that this region too was included in the area of cultural influence of the Tihama complex (see Anfray 1966; Fattovich 1980). In the first millennium BC, cattle herders were moving on the Tigrean plateau in Eritrea and eastern Tigray. They are identified by rock pictures of cattle in Ethio-Arabian, seminaturalistic, and very schematic styles. Some groups practiced milking and a rock picture of ploughing at Amba Focada rock shelter (eastern Tigray) might suggest that the ‘plough and cereal complex’ was already established on the plateau (Graziosi 1941; Conti Rossini 1948; Graziosi 1964a; Graziosi 1964b; Cervicek 1979). By the first millennium BC, also the Atbara and Gash alluvial plains in the western lowlands were occupied by cattle herders, practicing some cultivation of cereals (the ‘Hagiz Group’, c. 500 BC–AD 300/400) (Fattovich, Marks & Ali 1984; Marks & Sadr 1988; Fattovich, Sadr & Vitagliano 1988–89; Fattovich 1990b; Fattovich 1991b; Sadr 1991). The classical sources, however, suggest that in the Hellenistic times the hinterland regions towards the plateau were inhabited by peoples who hunted large savanna mammals, particularly elephants (Conti Rossini 1928; Fattovich 1987a; Fattovich 1990b).
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