Who are those leuco-ethiopians??? Why do this? I would like a reference if you please.
The Lion!
Ausar says: No, we are talking about ancient Northwestern Africa. Mainly around the modern day Magrebian areas.[Tunisa,Morocco,Libya or etc.]
Actually, the reference to leucoaethiopies was white northwestern Africans that had a culture similar to the Aethiopies.
And even today there are white Berbers in this region like the Kabyle and Riff
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quote:Ausar says: No, we are talking about ancient Northwestern Africa. Mainly around the modern day Magrebian areas.[Tunisa,Morocco,Libya or etc.]
Actually, the reference to leucoaethiopies was white northwestern Africans that had a culture similar to the Aethiopies.
And even today there are white Berbers in this region like the Kabyle and Riff
Hello Djehuti,
I would prefer if you not use me as direct evidence. My authority is not deciphering ancient Greek texts,nor am I in the field of classics.
However, I base my observations off depictions of Tamahou on ancient Egyptian reliefs. They are shown as rather fair skinned but with things like tribal scars and tattos that other Africans had. So no matter their physical apperance their culture would have probably been no different than other Africans. Where exactly these people came from I have no idea. But at least by the 18th dyansty they appear in Egyptian artwork;while earlier drawings show a dark-brown skinned people.
See:
Oric Bates The Eastern Libyans[rather dated but has lots of information on the Libyans]
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But is there real evidence from the AEs as to where the Tamahou actually lived or where they came from? We know that the Hyksos and others came across the Gaza route so what about the Tamahou?
Also name the Greek author--with possible citations--who used the terms "leucoaethopes".
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quote:Ausar writes: However, I base my observations off depictions of Tamahou on ancient Egyptian reliefs.
All they have to do is review the parent post, and they will understand that Ethiopia was a generalised Greek reference to Africa, it was not simply/literally a reference to skin color - unlike melas - which does actually, literally mean black.
Hence the irony contained in Snowden's writings.
Snowden supplies evidence against his own anti-black proclaimations, but you have to read him to know this. I encourage more ES discussants to take the time out to better research some of the things they argue about. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Pomponius Mela is the only authority in the entire library ofthe ancient world that makes reference to lecouethiopes.
Who this guy is and his ranking in the roman world is still open to question.
But worse, I could find only one paragraph of his work containing the reference to leucoethiopes. How familiar he was with Africa, and how credibile he sounds would be immediately apparent to anyone that understands the romance languages.
Here is his quote:
POMPONII MELAE: DE CHOROGRAPHIA
At super ea quae Libyco mari adluuntur Libyes Aegyptii sunt et Leucoaethiopes et natio frequens multiplexque Gaetuli. Deinde late vacat regio perpetuo tractu inhabitabilis. Tum primos ab oriente Garamantas, post Augilas et Trogodytas, et ultimos ad occasum Atlantas audimus. Intra, si credere libet, vix iam homines magisque semiferi Aegipanes et Blemyes et Gamphasantes et Satyri sine tectis ac sedibus passim vagi habent potius terras quam habitant
Lion! writes:
The troglodyes (Trogodytas) are the mythical three toed men who lived in Africa. PM writes that those three toed nations were neighbours to his white-ethiopians. He also writes about magical half wild beings (homines magisque semiferi) who were contemporaries of the white-ethiopians, and the three toed men of Africa. Satyrs also existed in abundance therein.
Now, it is not this type of hogwash that someone should cite as a credible source. Someone who was wont to hanging out with magical beings, satyrs and white ethiopians (white negros?) cannot be taken seriously, eh?
I know that many of us are limited by their knowledge of modern European languages, so it is good to reaaally know what you are talking about before opening up to lecture others.
Peace
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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^ A horribly off-point response, as unfortunately expected from you by now based on your prior antics.
Go back and read the parent post.
We are only interested in the existence of the reference in antiquity to leuco-aethiopes as a matter of lin-guis-tics.
This fact has been established.
Whether you like, or don't like this reference is completely irrelevant.
Whether you accept that luco-ethiopians are a reference to and actual people or if you prefer to believe it is something the ancients 'made up', for whatever reason..... is *completely irrelevant*.
Any opinion on who lecuo-Ethiopians were, where they lived, what language they spoke, what they ate and drank,,,, is also *completely off point.*
Likewise, ad-hominem attacks on Pomponius - whom you obviously know nothing about at any rate - are desparate, and too...*completely irrelevant*.
All your attempts at distraction are rejected.
What matters is that the reference [leuco-atheiopes] exists in antiquity and so sheds light on the history and usage of the Latin-derived term "Ethiopian", as explained in the parent post, and clearly understood by anyone with and open and perceptive mind.
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Not all of us can afford the luxury of a second or third language. So I understand the desperation in your post and the frustration that you feel.
Pomponius is not an authority that is why hardly any scholar cites his work. Fairy tales could have done better.
Those that can read and write latin and greek know so. If only you could read latin you would appreciate my amusement and contempt.
Peace
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Pomponius is not an authority and that is why hardly any scholar cites his work.
Frank Snowden: the ancient sources also point to the presence in northwest Africa of mixed black-white types, strongly suggested by names such as Libyoaethiopes (Libyan Ethiopians), Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others.
quote:you would appreciate my amusement and contempt.
No, but we appreciate your need to once again resort to the logical fallacy of argument by ridicule, as a defense mechanism.
Your best bet: save yourself further self-humiliation by reading Frank Snowden as you were advised to do earlier.
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: Not all of us can afford the luxury of a second or third language. So I understand the desperation in your post and the frustration that you feel.
Pomponius is not an authority that is why hardly any scholar cites his work. Fairy tales could have done better.
Those that can read and write latin and greek know so. If only you could read latin you would appreciate my amusement and contempt.
Peace
The Lion!
Excuses, excuses.
The point is there are white Berber speaking peoples in Northwest Africa and the Egyptians themselves during the New Kindom depicted 'Tamahou' white Libyans.
Obvious Pomponius was speaking of these same people, since 'Ethiopia' was used by the Romans as one of their names for Africa as a whole.
What is so hard to understand this??
YOU on the other hand don't know even the simplest linguistic basis that you attribute the the words like 'Ethiopian' or 'Kushi' word which describe black people in general to all of a sudden associate this with some 'empire' that stretches from Africa to India!! *sigh*
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quote:Dejehuti: 'Ethiopia' was used by the Romans as one of their names for Africa as a whole.
What is so hard to understand this??
It isn't hard to understand, as always on the internet the favored approaches of those who seek to distract are:
feign obtuseness, flame the discussants, and/or change the subject.
One point of clarification:
It is actually of no relevance what language leuco-ethiopes spoke, or whether they are more related to the sea peoples, the berber, semitics, etc.. Interesting questions in their own right to be sure, but distinct issues.
Here, we are interested in the use of the term leuco-Ethiopians in antiquity, which is correctly researched and reported by Frank Snowden. That is clear, and that is all. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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^ Don't know why it would take you 10,000 years to read Snowden's book and so, be able to make a valid point, instead of floundering about with your hapless straw-arguments.
But hey...you know your limitations better than the rest of us. peace. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: If only you could read original romance languages like latin and french....
If only you could critique the original text.
If only wishes were horses...beggars would ride.
Oh well, you will understand eventually. Even if it takes 10,000 years.
Peace.
The Lion!
And if only you were intelligent enough to interpret a simple passage correctly. Perhaps it will take you longer than 10,000 years. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Unfortunately for Lion!, we are *all* intelligent enough to know that he has been reduced to ad-hominem venting out of frustration, because he simply has no answer:
Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. - Frank Snowden.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Unfortunately for Lion!, we are *all* intelligent enough to know that he has been reduced to ad-hominem venting out of frustration, because he simply has no answer:
Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. - Frank Snowden.
Keep trying, Lion!
Rasol
The Lion! is simply trying to point out that no other author in antiquity had used such a reference as white negros or Africans (lecuoethiopians) except for your suprious friend.
It was not a term used or endorsed by Herodotus, nor Tacitus, nor Diodorus Siculus, nor any other of the more credible, respectible ancient writers.
So Prof. Snowden cites this single source as proof that the term leucoethiopians was in usage by the ancients.
Perhaps they used it, perhaps not. But certain questions remain unanswered:
Why did the more prominent authors not reference it once?
Why is it that Prof. Snowden could not produce another supporting authority?
Finally, what is the cogency of that nameless roman author you cited?
In response to the last question, I tried to provide you with a rough translation of the relevant citation.
Reading the English translation, questions immediately arise on your beloved roman sources credibility.
Because he testified that along with leucoEthiopians, he also saw flying beings, satyrs, magical men, and the rest gibberish.
If he did see leucoethiopians, then he really did see flying satyrs and magical feral beings. But we know that those mythological beings are non-existence.
Finally, were the Lion! to concede for arguments sake that Ethiopia was a generalized reference by the Greeks (note that you could only provide a roman source)to Africans black and lily white, then why did those same ancients learned as they were refer to the East Indians as "Ethiopians". Does that make them "generalized" Africans?
But as I said earlier, it is always good to check the original sorcues in their original language and ask some logical and scholarly queries.
The Lion! deals with just more than rote learning of history and anthropology.
The Lion! now critiques historigraphy and scientific research methodology because the Lion! has the skills, breath of knowledge and accomplishments to back that up.
Peace
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:The Lion! is simply trying to point out that no other author in antiquity had used such a reference as white negros or Africans
The Lion! is wrong as usual, and the reference is to: Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians) - Frank Snowden
We understand your desparation but, don't distort Snowden's quote. When you do that, it amounts to and admission that you can't refute him, and is even more embarrassing for you.
quote:(lecuoethiopians) except for your suprious friend.
The word you're looking for is spurious [deceitful] as in, your spurious misquote of Snowden's faithful citations of ancient scholarship.
Faithful citation is something you may want to try sometime, it'll get you further in the long run, than personal attacks, denial, and elementary fallacies of logic which doesn't seem to be working very well for you.
quote:It was not a term used or endorsed by Herodotus
Irrelevant, whoever else used the term or did not use it is moot.
This is the same error of logic that is used by those frustrated with Herodotus reference to Melas Egyptians. [black Egyptians]
They don't like it, but they can't refute it -> just like you., so....
they engage in ad-hominem fallacy attacks against Herodotus, which attempt to distract attention from the specific quote in question.
or....
they demand the same quote from someone else, which has no bearing on what Herodotus said.
Of course, it doesn't work for them, and it's not working for the Lion either. Sorry.
quote:So Prof. Snowden cites this single source as proof that the term leucoethiopians was in usage by the ancients.
lol. Nope, not Snowden's only source, nor is Snowden the only classicist to reference leuco ethiopians.
I told you you need to stop "running your yapper" for long enough to pick up a book and read.
quote:Perhaps they used it, perhaps not.
Yes, perhaps they did, perhaps you should get over it? rotfl!
quote:Why did the more prominent authors not reference it once?
Begging the question, you really need to take Ausar's advice and read up on the logical fallacies - as they are a crippling flaw in *all* of your arguments and abortive attempts at debate - non-sequitur, straw attack, ad-hominem, reduction to absurdity, question begging, and resort to ridicule, ad nauseum.
Snowden quote stands and remains unrefuted by Lion!, who commits the cardinal sin of arguing about a book that he hasn't even read.
tsk tsk Lion, read the book, and then we'll talk.
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Finally, were the Lion! to concede for arguments sake that Ethiopia was a generalized reference by the Greeks (note that you could only provide a roman source)to Africans black and lily white, then why did those same ancients, learned as they were, refer to the East Indians as "Ethiopians". Does that make them "generalized" Africans?
Peace
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: Evasion will neither help you present a good argument nor deepen your perspective.
Sorry Lion!, there's no denyin! : Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians) - Frank Snowden Get over it.
quote:then why did those same ancients, refer to the East Indians as "Ethiopians". Does that make them "generalized" Africans?
rotfl! This is the very question we ask everytime you mistakenly refer to East Indians as Africans , or Ethiopians, or Africans in the diaspora, of Afrikans, or...whatever.
Perhaps the reason you are so distraught by the reference to the leuco-ethiopians is because in your mind it explodes the very fallacies you cling so dearly too?
If you're serious about learning and not simply desparate to save face then do your homework, and maybe you'll get some answers, as opposed to begging questions.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: Evasion will neither help you present a good argument nor deepen your perspective.
Sorry Lion!, there's no denyin! : Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians) - Frank Snowden
Now, please...do your homework, and maybe you'll have some answers, next time.
Query 2:
Reading the English translation, questions immediately arise on your beloved roman sources credibility.
Because he testified that along with leucoEthiopians, he also saw flying beings, satyrs, magical men, and the rest gibberish.
If he did see leucoethiopians, then he really did see flying satyrs and magical feral beings. But we know that those mythological beings are non-existence. Or do they??
Peace
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Lion pleads: If he did see leucoethiopians......
Just because your sheer desparation amuses me, i'll entertain [or perhaps simply further torment] your latest excercise in flawed logic.
Are you implying that in Roman times - there were not both white and black people living in North Africa,
are you saying that therefore it would have been impossible to reference leuco ethiopians?
lybico ethiopians,
or.... and meleas [black] gaetulians? ?
You admit the term was used, but question the very existence of white and black people in NorthWest Africa in Roman times ? ? ?
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ ignoring the ad-hominems....
quote:Lion pleads: If he did see leucoethiopians......
Just because your sheer desparation amuses me, i'll entertain [or perhaps simply further torment] your latest excercise in flawed logic.
Are you implying that in Roman times - there were not both white and black people living in North Africa,
are you saying that therefore it would have been impossible to reference leuco ethiopians, or...
or lybico ethiopians,
or.... and meleas [black] gaetulians? ?
You admit the term was used, but question the very existence of white and black people in NorthWest Africa in Roman times ? ? ?
Rasol
I am holding you to your suprious authority. You can distort and entertain yourself as much as you please but the point remains unanswered.
That some Europeans lived in Africa is trite knowledge. Only a novice would get excited by rehashing that historical fact.
But besides the fact that Snowden cites Pompinous (a most dubious source) what do you really know about this issue?
What other books, historical essays, scholarly articles have you encountered that address this issue from an objective and dispassionate angle?
But what I am just demonstrating to you is that your type of rote learning without critical analysis nor comprehension gets you into trouble especially when you do not understand Greek, Latin, or French.
Similarly rote learning of genetics or bio-anthropology renders one looking ridiculous when he has no criticalunderstanding of the relevant methodology nor theoretical framework.
But I doubt that you would be able to understand what I am trying to say to you since critical thinking is obviously not a strong point of yours.
So keep entertaining yourself with your little picture books and cheap amazon.com paper backs. The Lion! wishes you well in your delusions respecting yourself.
Peace
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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^ Bear witness to Lions! long drawn out process of admission of debate defeat via ad hominem....
quote:If he did see leucoethiopians....
and...
quote:That some Europeans lived in Africa is trite knowledge.
...that's exactly what the ancients saw, and Snowden correctly referenced, of course - the very fact that you supposidly set out to deny. Or if not, then you are refuting no point in contention.
So why waste your time and further embarrass yourself in continued attempt to deny what you effectively admit is obvious. Your cause is as hopeless as your 'argument' is pointless.
quote:But besides the fact that Snowden cites Pompinous what do you really know about this issue?
We know you just effectively admitted the reference to whites of NorthWest Africa as leuco-ethiopians, the very FACT you've spent the last several days trying to hide from; Snowden's point, which you have just, [however bitterly], conceded.
What more do we need to know? Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I am holding you to your suprious authority. You can distort and entertain yourself as much as you please but the point remains unanswered.
Correction. There is nothing spurious* about it. And the only one who distorts is you. Right now all you are doing is squirming.
quote:That some Europeans lived in Africa is trite knowledge. Only a novice would get excited by rehashing that historical fact.
You acknowledge this fact, so what is difficult to understand that it was these whites who were called Leucoaethiopies?!!
quote:But besides the fact that Snowden cites Pompinous (a most dubious source) what do you really know about this issue?
What other books, historical essays, scholarly articles have you encountered that address this issue from an objective and dispassionate angle?
But what I am just demonstrating to you is that your type of rote learning without critical analysis nor comprehension gets you into trouble especially when you do not understand Greek, Latin, or French.
Criticize the source all you want, you still have not refuted it.
quote:Similarly rote learning of genetics or bio-anthropology renders one looking ridiculous when he has no criticalunderstanding of the relevant methodology nor theoretical framework.
Not really! Rasol knows what he's talking about when it comes to genetics. It is YOU who lacks simple understanding, let alone critical understanding, hence your sensless blabber of "black japanese"!!
quote:But I doubt that you would be able to understand what I am trying to say to you since critical thinking is obviously not a strong point of yours.
We understand what you say perfectly. It just that it's wrong.
quote:So keep entertaining yourself with your little picture books and cheap amazon.com paper backs. The Lion! wishes you well in your delusions respecting yourself.[/qb]
LOL Ad-hominem attacks on a scholarly book will not save you from the FACTS..
Yet you continue to espouse your fantasies of a Kushitic empire of the "wonder Ethiopians" which stretches from Africa to India. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: As a point of clarification on the meaning of Egypt and Ethiopia.
Egypt and Ethiopia are both Greek words, that are possibly of ultimate African origin, but with highly altered meanings.
Egypt is a Greek bastardisation of Het-Ka-Ptah, Home of Spirit Ptah.
Km.t was never natively called "Egypt", and possibly the word would have no meaning in mdw ntr prior to the Ptolemy.
Ethiopia may be a Greek corruption of Ethoshi [frontier?] in mdw ntr, it may have actually come over time to be associated with the completely different Greek word - poss-i-bly from aithein "to burn"
As a matter of linguistics then, Aethiopes does not mean Black in Greek, and Melas [which the Greeks called the AE and Ethiopians] does, which is ironic.
Adding to the list of Greek words that have become misnomers:
Berber, from Barbar, Barbarous, barbarians.
This is ultimately a Greek reference to Germanic peoples. It is and ethnic slur, making fun of the way Germans talk ie - babbling, and likely results in the off-shoot German female name Barbara.
It came to mean any uncivilised people. The Arabs picked this up from the Greeks, and applied it to North Africans possibly as much because of their non-Islamic beliefs as for any other reason:
berber 1842, from Arabic name for aboriginal people west and south[!] of Egypt. - Doug Harper
Hence it is no surprise that peoples such as Somali, Kennus, and Beja can also be found referenced as Berbers.
However these peoples are no longer referred as Berbers because they have demonstrated to be distinct linguistically, geographically, and therefore ethnically from the larger group of people traditionally referenced as Berber.
Thus we are left with a single scholarly basis for Berber derived from all of the above:
Berber - (Tamazight), a group of closely related languages spoken in North Africa, and the people who natively speak these languages.
Sometimes there is an attempt to make Berber into and archeology group, or genetic lineage extending deep into pre-history before the divergence of Berber from other African languages.
All of these attempts are flawed, because they depend on the tautalogical assumption that the people who speak Berber languages have a singular ancient history, which is traceable to archeology or genetic groups - which in fact can usually be shown to *not* concord with the origins of the Berber languages.
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Nubia, the origins of the word Nubia derive from nub which is Kemetic [Ancient Egyptian] for 'gold', see...
Known references to this term in mdw ntr include Nub.t, remember the [.t] in mdw ntr is process of denoting the property of a noun, or reference to person, place or thing.
But it was not a common geographic reference to the Upper Nile region: Ta Seti, Ta Khent, Ta Neter and Punt are all more common references to this geography.
Another use of this term in mdw ntr is -> nub hedj, which literally translates as 'white' gold. This refers to silver.
Ironically Nub does not actually exist in the mdw ntr as a reference to and ethnic group.
It was during Roman times, that this reference 1st appeared as a name for the people roughly corresponding to nub.t gold mines of the Upper nile.
From Roman times on however, the use of the term has expanded and is now a reference to many different peoples of Egypt and Sudan who, like the Berber, are most reasonably linked in scholarship by language family. Nubian languages are considered a sub-group of Nilo Saharan languages.
One of the most helpful and basic points to keep in mind with regards to Nubia is that it is in and of both Egypt and Sudan today.
There is nothing new or odd about this. For much of the concurrent history of Km.t and Kush Nubia was a part of BOTH Km.t and Kush.
Further Nubia is in North Africa and not South of the sahara. It is and error to refer to Nubia as sub-saharan.
Many of the errors involved in the conception of Nubia derive from the political needs of modern ws.t scholarship, but...that's another thread. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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ES AE&E forum members reject the status quo and produce viable more sensible paradigms. To whit, from a recently bumped up thread originally posted back in December of 2004:
quote: Wally says:
The Egyptian Frontier Although, historically the borders of Egypt were constantly changing, the African lands beyond its southern borders were called "Ethaosh"("Ethoshi";"Ethaoshu"), and earlier scholars give this term as the etymology of the word "Ethiopia".
It took extreme linguistic gymnastics to come up with "Aithen(?)" + "ops" to get to the Greek "burnt faces", ...
quote: And al~Takruri replies:
It sure seems more probable that Aethiops was the Greeks best try garbled pronunciation of one of the variants of Ethaosh. Its seems only coincidental that they related the single R3nMdw word to two Greek words whose meaning they applied to any and all very dark skinned persons and nationalities. After all it wasn't just the faces of these people that were of a burnt colour.
Sometimes it can be refreshing to go living through the past (past threads, that is).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Also relevant to discussion of the meaning of km.t [Blacks].
Occasionally we hear desparate attempt to pseudo-translate km.t to 'egyptian'.
Of couse, this is dissembly, not defintion.
Egyptian is Greek derivitive of mdw ntr -> "House of the Spirit Ptah."
Km.t is mdw ntr for Black.
Using the word Egyptian for Km.t, is simply a way of evading the fact that people we call Ancient Egyptians called themselves...Blacks.
Such a Eurocentric ploy is in fact, extremely insulting to its target audience, as it requires them to be too stupid to even understand the difference between 'definition' and evasion.
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Sudan is another term that has come to mean Blacks -> bilad al-sudan, land of the Blacks in Arabic.
However it's etymology is somewhat uncertain.
There is the view that the word has kemetic origins in variations of "Su" referring to the the African interior or south.
Such as: Nesu, Nehesu, South/Southerns.
It's worth noting that the kemitic ideology of royal legitmacy and southern origins was -> Nsu Biti Suten ->He who comes from the South, Southerner. Literally this would have referred to what is now Sudan.
Is this the origin of the concept of Sudan, which the Arabs then came to associate with and ethnic appellation for Blacks?
Another view is that the Arabs actually derive Sudan from the Sudd Swamplands of the Upper Nile, and again....came to associate it with the Black peoples of the Sudan.
Sometimes we are asked in regard to the Km.t, how can they refer themselves as Blacks when certainly *all* of them couldn't have been Black?
But the question is amusing when you think of the politcal and ethnic "situation" today in a country that calls itself ->Sudan, which is casually translated into "land of the Blacks".
Sudan is a purely Arabic term. Egyptian "Sudd" may have refered to that region, but the Arabic root "S-W-D" has the meaning of black. Masculine Singular "Aswad," feminine "Sawdaa'," plural "Sudaan," with the verb to be black being "Istaswad."
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^ That is correct. We had a conversation about this earlier with Yonis, who denied that the Arabs had a concept of 'blacks'.
Hence:
AL-JAHIZ AND THE BOOK OF THE GLORY OF THE BLACKS OVER THE WHITES
In Arabic:
Kitab Fakhr As-Sudan 'Ala Al-Bidan
Again, the point is, the use of Sudan as euphemism for 'black' is much more ironic than the use of Km.t, since Sudan is run by Arabised Blacks who deny their own blackness, even as their country is named after it.
Let be it clearly stated for Yonis and any one else who denies this->
Black is and ancient ethnic concept.
Sudan and Kemet - are both named after Black peoples.
note also: the Black that is sudan referenced by Arabs is *not* the modern 'nation' of Sudan.
[assuming this was another mistake made by Yonis, because it allowed him to 'blame' the very dark southern sudanese for the label. After his failed attempt to claim that Sudan wasn't really Arabic for Black, but was some sort of 'english language misinterpretation. Yonis makes an amusing study in anti-kemetic child psychology]
Arabic Sudan is basically *all* of Black Africa, which is all of Africa that is predominently Black.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I think Lion! has a point. A lot of writers and historians have spoken of Kush as a great Empire that spanned Egypt, India, Arabia, Southeast Asia and perhaps up into Babylon. This complex of cultures seems to follow the ancient migration routes of man out of Africa, up the Nile, along the Tigris and Euphrates, across Arabia, down through India and down into Southeast Asia. The ONLY problem with this is that other than mentioning Kush as a great ancient empire that was the father of Egypt, there has been provided NO evidence. HOWEVER, that does not mean that such a civilization did not exist.
I've read the same type of material but how true this maybe is debatable. That is one of the reasons why I used to consider Saudi Arabia as a broken piece of Africa.
My sound weird but it is from this type of information that one come to such conclusion despite how foolish they may sound.
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Arabic Sudan is basically *all* of Black Africa, which is all of Africa that is predominently Black.
Well, the Arabs generally used it to refer to the Sahel, since that was the area they were most familiar with (and sometimes to mean exclusively Western Africa). They generally called peoples by specific names if they had them, like Habash(ah) (Ethiopian), Baribira (Berber, Somali) or Zanj (East African), although these terms could also double for meaning "black" (e.g. slaves from Ethiopia, even if from bilaadi-s-sudaan would be called "Habash"; not sure about the originally Greek Berber, though).
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I'm using the term Sahel in its modern usage, not the Arabic SaHil (pl. SawaHil). And indeed the Sahel runs from West to East Africa.
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Fair enough. I only want to emphasize that in this Arabic definition of Black, that so called horners [i think thats a really silly sounding title btw], are equally Black as are Southern Sudanese.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Fair enough. I only want to emphasize that in this Arabic definition of Black, that so called horners [i think thats a really silly sounding title btw], are equally Black as are Southern Sudanese.
L.O.L., me too Yoner.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
There are references to Leuco-Aethiopians & Melano-Getulians in Greco-Roman astronomer Claudius Ptolemy's Geography.
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I have it from late Swiss Egyptologist Werner VYCICHL(1983) that Coptic Ethaush doesn't come from Egyptian t3S "frontier", but from K3S/K3s "Kush". So if the Ethaush/Etchaush word is the root for Greek Aethiops, I take it that the first Aethiopians introduced to Greeks were Kushites.
But!
Babacar SALL (1999), after an Italian scholar going by the name of Luigia Achillea STELLA (1965), points out the attestation of a "Ai-ti-jo-qo" expression in a 13th century BC Myceanian stela which would most likely have been the source for Aethiops.
The correlation of the two above is questionable as well though, since the Egyptian k>tch shift obviously hadn't occurred back in the XIIIth century in the name of Kush the way it had during the Coptic Era.
Babacar SALL also claimed that Aethiopia is likely a derivation from "Aethiopian" since the latter predates the former by a wide margin in Greek literature so...
The original burnt-face scenario seems to remain pretty probable to me...Thoughts?
quote:I have it from late Swiss Egyptologist Werner VYCICHL(1983) that Coptic Ethaush doesn't come from Egyptian t3S "frontier", but from K3S/Khat 3s "Kush".
Ethaush doesn't seem too similar to Kush.
What is the etymology in mdw ntr of both terms?
Does Kush also mean frontier with Ethaush [deriving from it?]?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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^^ The regularity of sound correspondences between MK Egyptic & Bohairic/Sahidic makes it clear that Ethaush/Etchaush "Ethiopia, Nubia (not "frontier")" aren't related to t3S "frontier", which shifted to taush/thaush "nome, frontier" but to k3S/k3s/'ikS "Kush".
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:...but to k3S/k3s/'ikS "Kush". --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does Kush, K3S/k3s/ikS mean then?
Or are you saying that the name of nation Kush, with unknown meaning, is then the source of Ethaush, and thence....Ethiopia?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I don't know the etymology of (non-Egyptian) Kush, but I know, thanks to the use of the term in Egyptian literature from Hieroglyphic to Coptic via Demotic, that K3S/K3s/KS/'ikS and then Ethaush/Etchaush were references to the same nation (and its inhabitants), which was a political complex located to the south of Egypt.
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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