quote:Originally posted by KING: What are we arguing about? Upper Egyptians are more African then Copts? This thread is getting confusing with all the double talk. The truth is that Upper Egyptians like the Saidi(I hope I spelled it right) Look more African then the Copts who mostly look like Europeans...
King, 'Copt' is a Christian denomination NOT an ethnic group. There are Coptic Sa'idis as well as Coptic Ethiopians!
quote:Upper Egyptians look more African looking. These are the people who look more like the Ancient Egyptians. As for some of them looking like people from the Horn, some do and some don't.
You are correct about this, and which is why Egyptians are related to Saharans and East Africans period.
Posts: 26344 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: But didn't you say previously that Southern Egyptians did not look like other Africans? We will let somebody actually from Ethiopia decide wheather these children as ''Habasi'' looking. Why not ask the poster Yom who is from Ethiopia about their apperance compaired to other Ethiopians.
Of your pictures I'd say the two women in the first photo would blend in in Ethiopia. The girls in the second photo look like they would blend in as well, though the girls in the back are hard to see clearly. The standing girl in the foreground looks very Habesha, though. If I saw her in a nondescript context I would assume she's Ethiopian.
With King's photos I'd say it's about half and half.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: King, 'Copt' is a Christian denomination NOT an ethnic group. There are Coptic Sa'idis as well as Coptic Ethiopians!
As I said elsewhere, the Ethiopian church was only technically Coptic prior to 1959, but there were significant differences (e.g. worship of both the Sabbath and Sunday official since 1450 and common since time immemorial) even before then.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: 4. You defend the Copts to death but don't know that most Copts[including Baba Shenouda] don't claim to be Monophysites.
You're right, Oriental orthodox churches are miaphysite.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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First of all Ausar im a Saeedi born and raised there is nothing anyone can say to changed that and im not here to sturr up problems with anyone im not racist at all. Me claiming African & Arab lineages Yes that is true one of my family members is half arab but that is way back. U can claim everything about the Coptics not being Monophysite u have your opionion and me Mine. So u said i cant be African & arab well there are many arabs living in Africa they are Arab Africans. Yes my family supposedly use to be Jewish but can i prove that i cant but if u go back threw my family lines we have arab names and Jewish names as well as Names that are NOn-Arab and Non-Christian and NOn-Jewish so u can sum that up yourself. Im not here to argue but to talk about ancient Egypt every man has the right to speak what he feels and even a White man can come in here and say the eygptians are whites but this forum is for people to come to reason about Ancient Egypt. The thing u dont understand is that anyone can convert to anything but no on can convert and be a Saeedi this is done with being a southern Egyptian. I actually explain to u that the man who knows Coptic is not related to me i call him my cousin because he is a Egyptian i have a few Northern Egyptian friends who are not even related to me but we tell everyone we are cousins because we are fellow Egyptians. Well Ausar i dont just love Egyptians i love every Race and every people i dont love My Egyptian people anymore than i love a Chinese we are different in that i am not attached to anything. We are different because anyone can talk bad to me and my people and i will never feel offended nor would i take it as an insult Embarresment is small as a musterseed to make me Kill or Insult another man. I Love Maat so much it is my Deen.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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This business of turning southern Egyptians into "Sudanese" simply because they don't fit a pseudo-scientific stereotype of "indigenous" Egyptians has to go...or else, produce objective [with scientific backing] support for those claims. None has been produced to date whatsoever; just some immaterial 'make-feel-good' claims.
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Words of Count Constantin de Volney 1757-1820 He reported as follows on the Egyptian race,the very race that had produced the Pharaohs:The Copts. All have a bloated face,puffed up eyes flat nose thick lips in a word the true face of aMulatto. I was tempted to attribute it to the climate, but when i visited the Sphinx,the appearance gave me the key to the riddle. On seeing the head typically Negro in all its features, I remembered the remarkable passage where herodotus says: As for me I judge the Colchians to be a colony of the egyptians like them they are black with wolly hair... In other words, the ancient egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans. That being so,we can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost teh intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold. We can even state as a genaral principle that the face is a kind of monument able in many cases to attest or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of peoples.
But returning to Egypt the lesson she teaches history contains many reflections for philosophy. What a subject for meditation, to see the present barbarism and ignorance of the copts,Decendants of the alliance between the profound genius of the Egyptians and the brilliant mind of the Greeks. Just think that this race of black men today our slaves and the object of our scorn, us the very race to which we owe our arts,science and even the use of speech. Just imagine finally that it is in the midst of peoples who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery and questioned whether black men have the same kind of intelligence as Whites.
Ausar what do u think about this and what is he really trying to Say.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Words of Count Constantin de Volney 1757-1820 He reported as follows on the Egyptian race,the very race that had produced the Pharaohs:The Copts. All have a bloated face,puffed up eyes flat nose thick lips in a word the true face of aMulatto. I was tempted to attribute it to the climate, but when i visited the Sphinx,the appearance gave me the key to the riddle. On seeing the head typically Negro in all its features, I remembered the remarkable passage where herodotus says: As for me I judge the Colchians to be a colony of the egyptians like them they are black with wolly hair... In other words, the ancient egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans. That being so,we can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost teh intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold. We can even state as a genaral principle that the face is a kind of monument able in many cases to attest or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of peoples.
But returning to Egypt the lesson she teaches history contains many reflections for philosophy. What a subject for meditation, to see the present barbarism and ignorance of the copts,Decendants of the alliance between the profound genius of the Egyptians and the brilliant mind of the Greeks. Just think that this race of black men today our slaves and the object of our scorn, us the very race to which we owe our arts,science and even the use of speech. Just imagine finally that it is in the midst of peoples who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery and questioned whether black men have the same kind of intelligence as Whites.
Ausar what do u think about this and what is he really trying to Say.
It means that even as the bigot he obviously is, Volney openly acknowledged the obvious tropical African affiliations of Ancient Egyptians. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: This business of turning southern Egyptians into "Sudanese" simply because they don't fit a pseudo-scientific stereotype of "indigenous" Egyptians has to go...or else, produce objective [with scientific backing] support for those claims. None has been produced to date whatsoever; just some immaterial 'make-feel-good' claims.
It is obvious that modern Upper Egyptians and Northern Sudanese have similar features, because they share similar backgrounds as people. Egyptians did not come from a separate planet. They came from the South, West and North. Therefore, people in the South of Egypt, where Egyptian culture originated, would have been closer, both in proximity and phenotype, to those of the Lower Sudan. There is a long history of interaction of people along the Nile and before the advent of the Egyptian dynastic state, people pretty much migrated at will. This is how people from the Sahara wound up in the Nile Valley after the Sahara dried up. But these migrants werent fenced in and isolated, since there was interactions amongst people all along the Nile from West to East and North to South. Even after the dynastic period there was STILL significant interaction with people to the south of Egypt, as can be seen from the significant role southerners played in the resurgent kingdoms of Egypt after periods of foreign domination. So all this nit picking and trying to isolate features of Egyptians from Sudanese is ridiculous. The general point is that Egypt and the Sudan have shared populations and history that stretches back thousands of years. The modern focus of power in Egypt amongst Northern, light skinned Egyptians is solely a phenomenon since the Greek invasion of Egypt. The Greeks realized that the populations in the North were more easily receptive of Greek rule, whereas those in the South, unsurprisingly, were not. Prior to this, Egypt was ruled from the South and most of the population was in the South. That therefore makes it not surprising at all that ancient Egyptians would have more similarities to people from the South.
It is ridiculous to make claims of ethnic purity anywhere in the world. All populations have mixed features, with pockets of somewhat homogenous groups, but in general there are many features that are shared amongst a wide swath of populations, making it hard to pick out what is truly unique about one group versus another. Bottom line, the issue here is not whether there were not features that were somewhat "unique" to Egyptians. The issue is whether these "unique" features represented Caucasian Eurasian features versus a varation of black African features.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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I know this is off the subject but how do i load a picture on to the forum im really lost some of my pictures i cant find the URL to them were do i find it at.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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You have to have a link to a picture first. One way you can load pictures off your hardrive and converting them into links is with photobucket,photoshack or tinypic. Otherwise if you already have a link to a photo you can use the following [img]insert link[/img]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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"The peopling of what is now the Egyptian Nile Valley, judging from archaeological and biological data, was apparently the result of a complex interaction between coastal northern Africans, “neolithic” Saharans, Nilotic hunters, and riverine proto-Nubians with some influence and migration from the Levant (Hassan, 1988).
The major variability of early “Egyptians” is thus seen to have been mainly established in the proto-predynastic period by the settling of all of these peoples.
No ongoing major mass movements of new groups into the valley are postulated between the early predynastic and the latest dynastic period, with the possible exception of the Asiatic Hyksos. - Keita.
More from Keita:
“Kerma in the Sudan was the center of the early Kush state. These crania date from 2000 to 1800 BC. Collett (1933: 258) notes that: an attempt to divide the whole into two contrasting groups showed that it was quite impossible to dis- tinguish the negroid specimens with any degree of exactness. Hence it was concluded that the safest procedure was to treat the total series as if it represented a single racial type which would obviously be one possessing negroid characters.”
“These crania are easily seen as “Elongated African” (Hiernaux, 1975) or “Nilotic Negro” (Rightmire, 1975a,b), rather than hybrids. The choice of Kerma as the series representative of Nubia is based on the observation that it lay in the middle range of Nubian variation (Mukherjee et al., 1955) and by Crichton’s (1966) views that Nubian series are the most appropriate comparison series of a Negroid people in studies examining Egyptian variation in its African context Ethnic Nubians, called Nehesy by the ancient Egyptians, vary in their phenotype. However, Egyptians, even those with the stereotypically Negroid (Broad) phenotype, were not called Nehesy, reinforcing the idea that Nehesy was an ethnogeographic, not “racial” term (Drake, 1987). The pharaoh who forbade the northern migration of riverine Nubians into Egypt was of an obviously “Negroid dynasty (Yurco, 19891, known to have southern origins.”
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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What do you mean by loading them? I just explained in my post how to load them and paste them to the message board. Just follow my instructions.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Ausar i have alot of pictures on my document my pictures how do i load them.
Rather than filling threads with mere pictures, how about using 'material' to communicate your ideas. For instance, earlier I presented:
The major variability of early “Egyptians” is thus seen to have been mainly established in the **proto-predynastic period** by the settling of all of these peoples.
No ongoing major mass movements of new groups into the valley are postulated between the early predynastic and the latest dynastic period, with the possible exception of the Asiatic Hyksos. - Keita.
The keyword in the above would be "proto"-predynastic period, and then, "mass movements".
" Internal movements did occur.
Given all of the data, these explanations of variability and its temporal origin are more plausible than Smith’s migration (1916) theories [or Oliver’s (1981) view echoing Morton (1844), which sees the presence of Egyptians with Negroid phenotypes as being the result of slavery during dynastic times!] The people with the various described phenotypes were united very early by developing a common culture.
By the TIME OF THE UNIFICATION they were all “INDIGENOUS” and PRIMARILY AFRICAN in origin.
NO MAJOR MIGRATIONS need be invoked in most cases in dynastic times to explain variation." - Keita.
^^The cranio-metric trends in coastal "northern" Nile Valley groups are seen as even more "generalized" than those of the "elongated" groups, and not necessarily foreign. Keita sees the range of variability seen in the said ancient Nile Valley region, as primarily "indigenous" in character; certainly culture-wise.
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Actually Supercar these are pictures i have on my digital camera of the Giza pyramids i went inside and took some really good photos of hieroglyphics and egyptian paintings from inside the tomb i bet its something that was never shown to the public i have pictures of Ausar holding HOrus's hand and many other pictures. It seems i cant get it on my computer.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Actually Supercar these are pictures i have on my digital camera of the Giza pyramids i went inside and took some really good photos of hieroglyphics and egyptian paintings from inside the tomb i bet its something that was never shown to the public i have pictures of Ausar holding HOrus's hand and many other pictures. It seems i cant get it on my computer.
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Actually Supercar these are pictures i have on my digital camera of the Giza pyramids i went inside and took some really good photos of hieroglyphics and egyptian paintings from inside the tomb i bet its something that was never shown to the public i have pictures of Ausar holding HOrus's hand and many other pictures. It seems i cant get it on my computer.
Then it is probably in your best interest to create an entirely new thread for it, since it apparently has nothing to do with what we are discussing at hand.
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In most cases, the morphological descriptions of early southern "Egyptian" crania clearly fall within Broad to Elongated Saharo-tropical African ranges of variation. If treated as an unknown, Egyptian variation has to be judged in the context of the range of early Saharo-tropical African variation (Broad to Elongated) and not be analyzed in terms of one abstracted phenotype deemed to be the only "African." In other words, the baseline definition of biological African has to take in the entire range of tropical African variability, including fossil and subfossil data, and not be based on the baised (for whatever reason) misusing of race theorists from the earlier part of this century. - Keita
And
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Most Sudanese don't come to Aswan to work but to Cairo. You will never seen Sudanese as felleuca boat men. The point I was trying to make is that you cannot always tell the differences between a Sa3eedi and a Nubian soley by skin color alone. Most people in Aswan are a deep brown to black in color.
Most Northern Sudanese[unless they are Nubians] will not say they are Nubians. Most Nubians will identify themselves by Kenuzi,Mahas,and Fadija. At least the Northern Sudanese I have personally known.
No, but intermarriage between Sudanese in Upper Egypt is next to none because very little Sudanese live in Upper Egypt. Most Sudanese live in Cairo or Alexandria.
Well, I love Egypt and Egyptian people. Despite me living in the West, I would return to my country of Egypt anytime. Once my country becomes more stable and common people are allowed to persue more opportunities I will return. Most of my relatives come from rural villages in Luxor to Aswan and I am proud of my origins. You could never insult a real Sa3eedi or belittle a fellahin without catching my feelings.
You are suspect because of the various things you have said:
1. That Muslims ran your Jewish family from Elephantine Island
2. You mention your grandmother was related to some Coptic Mystic[you later caught yourself by saying he studied the Coptic language and not an actual Coptic Christian]
3. You then claim your people claim African and Arab lineages. Earlier you said you were African but then said you apologize for the atrosities ''your people'' did as Arabs. Huh?
4. You defend the Copts to death but don't know that most Copts[including Baba Shenouda] don't claim to be Monophysites.
Understand I use to post on an Egyptian newsgroup where people regulary claimed to be from Egypt[but find out many were Saudi Arabians or Israelis] trying to stir up hostilities. Not say you are but if you are then don't disgrace my Sa3eedi people by telling lies or telling us about ourselves. Just comment on ancient Egypt and your own experiances.
This really should be the end of it.
Posts: 26344 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Actually Supercar these are pictures i have on my digital camera of the Giza pyramids i went inside and took some really good photos of hieroglyphics and egyptian paintings from inside the tomb i bet its something that was never shown to the public i have pictures of Ausar holding HOrus's hand and many other pictures. It seems i cant get it on my computer.
Most of the art in the tombs around the pyramid are hardly EVER shown since they would CONTRADICT the notion of the people that built the pyramids being caucasian. The only images and statues that they DO show from this period are those that they can pass off as caucasian like Hemiunu and others. They hardly ever show the MAJORITY of the images, such as those of Merasankh or mastaba tombs like those of Iymery, Ity, Neferbauptah or Shepseskafankh. I have a few books on these from work done in the 70s. Totally unlike those images of people from the pyramid age you see in museums. My bet is that they would rather wait until everything is decayed and the colors fade so they can then pass them off as caucasian. To hear them tell it, the early dynastic tombs and mastabas in Giza and elsewhere are too damaged, but that is not the real issue.
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