Most research I have seen puts human settlement in West AFrica at about 11,000-13,000 years ago. Outside of East Africa, the earliest sites of human settlement are in South Africa.
There has been human presence in West Africa longer than that. Now, if you are referring to groups ancestral to many contemporary West Africans, perhaps the above dates would be reasonable approximations of settlements from other parts of Africa, like from other parts of the Saharan expanse sans the west African portion, and/or movements from sub-Saharan east Africa via central Africa.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Most research I have seen puts human settlement in West AFrica at about 11,000-13,000 years ago. Outside of East Africa, the earliest sites of human settlement are in South Africa.
There has been human presence in West Africa longer than that. Now, if you are referring to groups ancestral to many contemporary West Africans, perhaps the above dates would be reasonable approximations of settlements from other parts of Africa, like from other parts of the Saharan expanse sans the southern limits of the west African portion, or sub-Saharan east Africa via central Africa.
I would not classify the earliest West Africans (c. 11,000- 6000 ybp)with speakers of the Niger-Congo languages. Many of these people only entered West Africa over the past 4000 years. According to McIntosh and McIntosh, for example, the Niger Valley was not settled until 500 BC.
Moeover, the traditions of these people mention the fact that when many of these groups entered many parts of "West Africa" the region west of Chad, was already occupied by "small sized Africans".
Most research I have seen puts human settlement in West AFrica at about 11,000-13,000 years ago. Outside of East Africa, the earliest sites of human settlement are in South Africa.
There has been human presence in West Africa longer than that. Now, if you are referring to groups ancestral to many contemporary West Africans, perhaps the above dates would be reasonable approximations of settlements from other parts of Africa, like from other parts of the Saharan expanse sans the southern limits of the west African portion, or sub-Saharan east Africa via central Africa. [/qb]
I would not classify the earliest West Africans (c. 11,000- 6000 ybp)with speakers of the Niger-Congo languages. Many of these people only entered West Africa over the past 4000 years. According to McIntosh and McIntosh, for example, the Niger Valley was not settled until 500 BC.
Moeover, the traditions of these people mention the fact that when many of these groups entered many parts of "West Africa" the region west of Chad, was already occupied by "small sized Africans".
I presume you are basing this on "Niger-congo" origins?...certainly not based on genetics or archeology.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Egyptian Pharoahs were found to have Benin Haplotype (HBS) sickle cell trait, the Benin Haplotype sickle cell trait shows up with a frequency of 70% amongst Afrikan Americans. E3a in lower Kemet, also found amongst Afrikan Americans,mtDNA L3g is found amongst Afrikan Amercans also.
I presume you are basing this on "Niger-congo" origins?...certainly not based on genetics or archeology.
This is based on archaeology. I will use the Mande speaking people as an example.
One of the major groups of languages spoken in Africa is the Mande group. The Mande languages are divided into two groups, the Northern and South-Eastern Mande.
The Northern Mande played an important role in world history. The Northern Mande languages include the (l) Soninke dialect cluster: Azer, Bozo, Soninke (Sarakole); and (2) the Manding cluster: Malinke, Bambara, Dyula and Vai. Elements of the Northern Mande founded many civilization,including the Minoan civilization of Crete , the Olmec civilization of Meso-America ( Wuthenau 1980; Winters 1979, 1981c,1986), and the Xia civilization of China (Winters 1980,1983c,1985d,1988, 1990).
The Proto-Manding best known for its totem of a dragon or lizard (Winters 1983, 1983c,1985d). In ancient America and China this dragon or lizard totem was retained as the emblem of their civilizations.
The Proto-Manding often referred to themselves as Si. In the Manding languages the term Si, means "black, race, descendant and family".
Today blacks are usually referred to as li in Chinese. In the ancient Chinese language the blacks of the Xia and Shang civilizations were called Xi (Shi) 'Blacks' . The Yucatec Maya, called these ancient Manding who founded the Olmec civilization and who taught them writing Xiu (Shi-u) 'the Blacks'.
The traditional view of the separation of the Proto-Mande (PM) would place the original their homeland in the woodland savanna zone of West Africa in the area of the Niger Basin 4000 years ago. Although this is a popular and attractive theory, the archaeological data suggest that the original homeland of the Mande was more than likely the Saharan highland areas, and the southern Sahara 8000 years ago.
The PM were probably part of the Saharan Sudanese neolithic , users of the dotted wavy line ceramics.(Winters 1986c,1986b) By the advent of the neolithic the PM speakers had domesticated cattle and goats. They also cultivated millet.
Between 3500 and 3200 B.C., the PM speakers left their original Libyan and Nubian homeland to settle the Hoggar and Fezzan(Winters 1985,1986c). They apparently migrated around the same time and remained more or less a single linguistic community.
By 2500 B.C., the Proto-Northern Mande (PNM) began to separate into two major groups. The Proto-Soninke were spread from the Northern part of the Hoggar massif down into Mauritania. The Soninke speaking population of farmers and cattle herders were in Dar Tichitt by 3850 B.C. By 1500 B.C., there was wide spread settlement of the Proto-Soninke speaking Mande in Tichitt.
The Proto-Manding speaking population lived south of the Soninke in the Hoggar and in the Fezzan. These people were mainly farmers and fishermen. They had cattle but this was secondary to their farming and fishing. The Manding were a riverine people who built their habitation sites near rivers and streams. The towns communicated with one another by boats. Another group of Manding speakers, the Proto-Vai, went westward with the Proto-Soninke and lived in Dar Tichitt.
According to Winters (1986c) the Proto-Manding speaking people lived south of the Soninke in the Hoggar and Fezzan. The Malinke-Bambara speaking Manding were mainly farmers and fishermen. They had cattle but this was secondary to their farming and fishing. The Manding were a riverine people who built their habitation sites near rivers and streams. The towns communicated with one another by boats. Another group of Manding speakers, the Proto-Vai , went westward with the Proto-Soninke and occupied the Dar Tichitt area.
In Dar Tichitt between 1500 to 300 B.C., cattle and goats appear throughout the region. By 1000 B.C., walls were built around the towns for protection from nomadic raiding parties. By 800 B.C. these towns stretched over a hundred miles of now uninhabited desert. (Munson 1976)
The distribution of the towns in Dar Tichitt during this period suggests the formation of a state or empire. Given the fact that the walls of the towns disappeared later, indicates that the various Soninke communities probably had a civilian army which was called up in times of emergency and also a standing army to deter the nomads who threaten settled Mande speaking communities.
In Dar Tichitt by 600 to 300 B.C., these Mande speakers lived in smaller towns situated in heavily fortified natural rock formations, which suggest that the inhabitants of the towns during this period were building their homes in areas which were easy to defend and offered natural fortifications. By 300 B.C., these towns were no longer inhabited.
Some researchers believe that the inhabitants of the Dar Tichitt towns were the troglodyte Ethiopians who lived in holes and were hunted by the Garamante, according to Herodotus, and sold into slavery. The rock engravings of Mauritania were presumably made to show the lifestyle of the people who lived there. Munson (1976), Winters (1986), Holl (1985,1985b,1989) believe that Tichitt, was the forerunner of the Soninke Empire of Ghana, given the fact that the people in this area continue to speak a Soninke language.
The Garamante lived in the Fezzan in the fertile valley between the Ubari Erg and the Erg of Murzuq in oases spread from al-Abiod to Tin Abunda. The last capital of the Garamantes was situated at Jerma.
The Garamantes may have been of Manding origin. The name Garamante seems to indicate that this group of Libyans, were members of the Mande community. This name in Manding means "Mande/Mantes of the arid lands". This analogy is supported by the name of the Mande group which translates into ma 'mother'and nde 'child', i.e., "mother's child"; Bambara or Banbara ,which means "separated from the mother", i.e., they follow descent from the father's side.
According to Robert Graves (1980, p.33), the Garamantes left the Fezzan and settled the south bank of the Upper Niger after they were subdued by the Lemta Berbers in the 2nd century A.D.
The presence of Mande communities in Mauritania and the Fezzan would explain the chariot routes that transverse the desert and end at the Niger bend. These routes suggest communication and trade between the Mande groups in northwest Africa, the Fezzan and the Niger bend. But it would appear that by the mid-first millennium A.D., all the Manding had left the Fezzan except for the Garamante. They have left hundreds of inscriptions engraved on rocks from the Fezzan to the Niger Bend.
By 2000 B.C., the Proto-Manding probably began to migrate from the Hoggar into the Tilemsi Valley, as the Sahara began to decline due to aridity. (Winters 1986c,pp.91-92) This was over 800 years after groups of Manding along with Dravidian speaking migrants moved out of the Hoggar and Fezzan into northern Libya and thence Crete and Asia Minor. (Winters 1983b,1989) A segment of this group also moved eastward and made their way to Iran after 3000 B.C., and from there into the Indus Valley.(Winters 1989,1990)
In the Tilemsi Valley the major center of Manding occupation was the Karkarichinkat site. The settlers of the Karkarchinkat site were herder-fisher collectors of a Saharan material culture.(McIntosh & McIntosh 1981, p.608)
At Karkarchinkat north, herding and plant domestication were heavily practiced. The Bozo may have migrated along with the Manding into the Tilemsi Valley and settled first in the fishing communities of south Karkarchinkat.
Sites in the Sahara, especially the Western Fezzan, have yielded plentiful bones of domesticated cattle and small stock, along with pottery shards and farming tools. These people had dug many wells. The pottery is of the Aqualithic type, and is found mainly in the Tilemsi massif and the Fezzan.
As more and more of the Sahel became arid, the Mande-speaking people began to move into the Niger Bend area after 500 B.C. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1979, 1981; Winters 1986c) Before 500 B.C., the Niger Basin was probably inaccessible by boat and/or uninhabited because of the presence of diseases detrimental to cattle and humans until the last part of the 1st millennium B.C.( McIntosh & McIntosh 1983, pp.39-42)
The early artifacts from the Niger area support a Saharan origin for the Manding of the Niger Delta. The bowl designs from the Niger Delta dating to 250 B.C., are analogous to pottery styles from the southern Sahara dating to between 2000-500 B.C.(McIntosh & McIntosh 1979,p.246)
The early settlers of the Niger were Malinke-Bambara and Bozo speaking people. They lived atop mounds. These riverine communities were partly vegetarian. The people also ate some meat and fish. Between Segou and Timbuktu, the people grew rice.
The pre-Islamic Mande established numerous communities. They specialized as farmers, fishermen and especially cattle herders until the decline in the environment of the Sahel. They grew rice, millet, sorghum, cotton, groundnuts, cow peas, okra, sesame and shea nuts. Other Mande people were fishermen as evidence by the bone-harpoons and terracotta net-weights from Donna Fatoma Ke-Bozo and Segoubougou.
The Mande also built megaliths carved in the shape of a phalli and human heads. The major sites with megaliths are Tondidaro and Kouga. They made ornaments out of copper. The dead were buried in jar-coffins. Often entire families were buried in the same mound complex.
In conclusion, the hypothesis that the Proto-Mande homeland was in the Niger Basin can be challenged on the basis of the archaeological data discussed above. This data proves that the Sahara was the homeland of the Manding, not the Niger Basin.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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First of all Mande is just one of the many descendants of the proto-Niger-Congo ancestral language, which some linguists like Chris Ehret deem to be approx. 15 ky old. The Bantu branch, for instance, the speakers of it, have been determined to have expanded from where Cameroon [perhaps ultimately originating in southern Nigerian region] now lies to "equatorial forests of the Congo about 5,000 years ago [see Felix Marti et al. 2005]."
These people took with them, the iron technology already developed in West Africa. Given this, what makes you think that divergances within Niger-Congo superfamily hadn't occurred by 5 ky ago?
As I have noted in another thread, "Yam" cultivation beginnings in west Africa, have been traced back to ca. 11 ky ago if not at least. This is still amongst important cultivation items in the Niger river delta region. Similar tools used for cultivation purposes have been located in parts of Central Africa dating to about the same period, earlier and later. And then you have pottery, which have been compared with Saharan types, and are deemed to have some affinities.
Genetics dates divergence of E3a carriers from the PN2 lineage at ~ 18.8 ky ago [see Semino et al., 2004], which is reasonable, given the proposed age for the proto-Niger-Congo language's age at ca. 15ky old.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Egyptian Pharoahs were found to have Benin Haplotype (HBS) sickle cell trait, the Benin Haplotype sickle cell trait shows up with a frequency of 70% amongst Afrikan Americans. E3a in lower Kemet, also found amongst Afrikan Americans,mtDNA L3g is found amongst Afrikan Amercans also.
Hotep
How come you never produce any source? Do you expect people to just accept your theories as they are because they like your nick? Without validity or linkage to a more reliable source, your words becomes useless at the end.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Mystery Solver
quote:
I presume you are basing this on "Niger-congo" origins?...certainly not based on genetics or archeology.
This is based on archaeology. I will use the Mande speaking people as an example.
One of the major groups of languages spoken in Africa is the Mande group. The Mande languages are divided into two groups, the Northern and South-Eastern Mande.
The Northern Mande played an important role in world history. The Northern Mande languages include the (l) Soninke dialect cluster: Azer, Bozo, Soninke (Sarakole); and (2) the Manding cluster: Malinke, Bambara, Dyula and Vai. Elements of the Northern Mande founded many civilization,including the Minoan civilization of Crete , the Olmec civilization of Meso-America ( Wuthenau 1980; Winters 1979, 1981c,1986), and the Xia civilization of China (Winters 1980,1983c,1985d,1988, 1990).
The Proto-Manding best known for its totem of a dragon or lizard (Winters 1983, 1983c,1985d). In ancient America and China this dragon or lizard totem was retained as the emblem of their civilizations.
The Proto-Manding often referred to themselves as Si. In the Manding languages the term Si, means "black, race, descendant and family".
Today blacks are usually referred to as li in Chinese. In the ancient Chinese language the blacks of the Xia and Shang civilizations were called Xi (Shi) 'Blacks' . The Yucatec Maya, called these ancient Manding who founded the Olmec civilization and who taught them writing Xiu (Shi-u) 'the Blacks'.
The traditional view of the separation of the Proto-Mande (PM) would place the original their homeland in the woodland savanna zone of West Africa in the area of the Niger Basin 4000 years ago. Although this is a popular and attractive theory, the archaeological data suggest that the original homeland of the Mande was more than likely the Saharan highland areas, and the southern Sahara 8000 years ago.
The PM were probably part of the Saharan Sudanese neolithic , users of the dotted wavy line ceramics.(Winters 1986c,1986b) By the advent of the neolithic the PM speakers had domesticated cattle and goats. They also cultivated millet.
Between 3500 and 3200 B.C., the PM speakers left their original Libyan and Nubian homeland to settle the Hoggar and Fezzan(Winters 1985,1986c). They apparently migrated around the same time and remained more or less a single linguistic community.
By 2500 B.C., the Proto-Northern Mande (PNM) began to separate into two major groups. The Proto-Soninke were spread from the Northern part of the Hoggar massif down into Mauritania. The Soninke speaking population of farmers and cattle herders were in Dar Tichitt by 3850 B.C. By 1500 B.C., there was wide spread settlement of the Proto-Soninke speaking Mande in Tichitt.
The Proto-Manding speaking population lived south of the Soninke in the Hoggar and in the Fezzan. These people were mainly farmers and fishermen. They had cattle but this was secondary to their farming and fishing. The Manding were a riverine people who built their habitation sites near rivers and streams. The towns communicated with one another by boats. Another group of Manding speakers, the Proto-Vai, went westward with the Proto-Soninke and lived in Dar Tichitt.
According to Winters (1986c) the Proto-Manding speaking people lived south of the Soninke in the Hoggar and Fezzan. The Malinke-Bambara speaking Manding were mainly farmers and fishermen. They had cattle but this was secondary to their farming and fishing. The Manding were a riverine people who built their habitation sites near rivers and streams. The towns communicated with one another by boats. Another group of Manding speakers, the Proto-Vai , went westward with the Proto-Soninke and occupied the Dar Tichitt area.
In Dar Tichitt between 1500 to 300 B.C., cattle and goats appear throughout the region. By 1000 B.C., walls were built around the towns for protection from nomadic raiding parties. By 800 B.C. these towns stretched over a hundred miles of now uninhabited desert. (Munson 1976)
The distribution of the towns in Dar Tichitt during this period suggests the formation of a state or empire. Given the fact that the walls of the towns disappeared later, indicates that the various Soninke communities probably had a civilian army which was called up in times of emergency and also a standing army to deter the nomads who threaten settled Mande speaking communities.
In Dar Tichitt by 600 to 300 B.C., these Mande speakers lived in smaller towns situated in heavily fortified natural rock formations, which suggest that the inhabitants of the towns during this period were building their homes in areas which were easy to defend and offered natural fortifications. By 300 B.C., these towns were no longer inhabited.
Some researchers believe that the inhabitants of the Dar Tichitt towns were the troglodyte Ethiopians who lived in holes and were hunted by the Garamante, according to Herodotus, and sold into slavery. The rock engravings of Mauritania were presumably made to show the lifestyle of the people who lived there. Munson (1976), Winters (1986), Holl (1985,1985b,1989) believe that Tichitt, was the forerunner of the Soninke Empire of Ghana, given the fact that the people in this area continue to speak a Soninke language.
The Garamante lived in the Fezzan in the fertile valley between the Ubari Erg and the Erg of Murzuq in oases spread from al-Abiod to Tin Abunda. The last capital of the Garamantes was situated at Jerma.
The Garamantes may have been of Manding origin. The name Garamante seems to indicate that this group of Libyans, were members of the Mande community. This name in Manding means "Mande/Mantes of the arid lands". This analogy is supported by the name of the Mande group which translates into ma 'mother'and nde 'child', i.e., "mother's child"; Bambara or Banbara ,which means "separated from the mother", i.e., they follow descent from the father's side.
According to Robert Graves (1980, p.33), the Garamantes left the Fezzan and settled the south bank of the Upper Niger after they were subdued by the Lemta Berbers in the 2nd century A.D.
The presence of Mande communities in Mauritania and the Fezzan would explain the chariot routes that transverse the desert and end at the Niger bend. These routes suggest communication and trade between the Mande groups in northwest Africa, the Fezzan and the Niger bend. But it would appear that by the mid-first millennium A.D., all the Manding had left the Fezzan except for the Garamante. They have left hundreds of inscriptions engraved on rocks from the Fezzan to the Niger Bend.
By 2000 B.C., the Proto-Manding probably began to migrate from the Hoggar into the Tilemsi Valley, as the Sahara began to decline due to aridity. (Winters 1986c,pp.91-92) This was over 800 years after groups of Manding along with Dravidian speaking migrants moved out of the Hoggar and Fezzan into northern Libya and thence Crete and Asia Minor. (Winters 1983b,1989) A segment of this group also moved eastward and made their way to Iran after 3000 B.C., and from there into the Indus Valley.(Winters 1989,1990)
In the Tilemsi Valley the major center of Manding occupation was the Karkarichinkat site. The settlers of the Karkarchinkat site were herder-fisher collectors of a Saharan material culture.(McIntosh & McIntosh 1981, p.608)
At Karkarchinkat north, herding and plant domestication were heavily practiced. The Bozo may have migrated along with the Manding into the Tilemsi Valley and settled first in the fishing communities of south Karkarchinkat.
Sites in the Sahara, especially the Western Fezzan, have yielded plentiful bones of domesticated cattle and small stock, along with pottery shards and farming tools. These people had dug many wells. The pottery is of the Aqualithic type, and is found mainly in the Tilemsi massif and the Fezzan.
As more and more of the Sahel became arid, the Mande-speaking people began to move into the Niger Bend area after 500 B.C. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1979, 1981; Winters 1986c) Before 500 B.C., the Niger Basin was probably inaccessible by boat and/or uninhabited because of the presence of diseases detrimental to cattle and humans until the last part of the 1st millennium B.C.( McIntosh & McIntosh 1983, pp.39-42)
The early artifacts from the Niger area support a Saharan origin for the Manding of the Niger Delta. The bowl designs from the Niger Delta dating to 250 B.C., are analogous to pottery styles from the southern Sahara dating to between 2000-500 B.C.(McIntosh & McIntosh 1979,p.246)
The early settlers of the Niger were Malinke-Bambara and Bozo speaking people. They lived atop mounds. These riverine communities were partly vegetarian. The people also ate some meat and fish. Between Segou and Timbuktu, the people grew rice.
The pre-Islamic Mande established numerous communities. They specialized as farmers, fishermen and especially cattle herders until the decline in the environment of the Sahel. They grew rice, millet, sorghum, cotton, groundnuts, cow peas, okra, sesame and shea nuts. Other Mande people were fishermen as evidence by the bone-harpoons and terracotta net-weights from Donna Fatoma Ke-Bozo and Segoubougou.
The Mande also built megaliths carved in the shape of a phalli and human heads. The major sites with megaliths are Tondidaro and Kouga. They made ornaments out of copper. The dead were buried in jar-coffins. Often entire families were buried in the same mound complex.
In conclusion, the hypothesis that the Proto-Mande homeland was in the Niger Basin can be challenged on the basis of the archaeological data discussed above. This data proves that the Sahara was the homeland of the Manding, not the Niger Basin.
.
Again with the Mande Supermen Winters? I like how you quote yourself though...
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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The issue of HbS in ancient Egyptian specimens can be reviewed here:
Use of the amplification refractory mutation system (ARMS) in the study of HbS in predynastic Egyptian remains.
Marin A, Cerutti N, Massa ER.
Dipartimento di Biologia Animale e dell'Uomo, Universita degli Studi di Torino.
We conducted a molecular investigation of the presence of sicklemia in six predynastic Egyptian mummies (about 3200 BC) from the Anthropological and Ethnographic Museum of Turin. Previous studies of these remains showed the presence of severe anemia, while histological preparations of mummified tissues revealed hemolytic disorders. DNA was extracted from dental samples with a silica-gel method specific for ancient DNA. A modification of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), called amplification refractory mutation system (ARMS) was then applied. ARMS is based on specific priming of the PCR and it permits diagnosis of single nucleotide mutations. In this method, amplification can occur only in the presence of the specific mutation being studied. The amplified DNA was analyzed by electrophoresis. In samples of three individuals, there was a band at the level of the HbS mutated fragment, indicating that they were affected by sicklemia. On the basis of our results, we discuss the possible uses of new molecular investigation systems in paleopathological diagnoses of genetic diseases and viral, bacterial and fungal infections.
Even to this day, HbS, particularly the Benin haplotype Sickel cell has been noted in Egyptian samples:
[*]Haplotypes of the beta-globin gene as prognostic factors in sickle-cell disease.
el-Hazmi MA, Warsy AS, Bashir N, Beshlawi A, Hussain IR, Temtamy S, Qubaili F.
Medical Biochemistry Department, World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Haemoglobinopathies, Thalassaemias and Enzymopathies, College of Medicine, King Khalid University Hospital, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
"We collaborated with researchers from Egypt, Syrian Arab Republic and Jordan in a study of patients with sickle-cell disease from those countries, and from various parts of Saudi Arabia, in order to investigate the influence of genetics on the clinical presentation of the disease, and to attempt to determine the **origin** of the sickle-cell gene in Arabs.
Our results suggest that beta-globin gene haplotypes influence the clinical presentation of sickle-cell disease, and that there are at least two major foci for the origin of the sickle-cell gene, one in the eastern part of Saudi Arabia, and the other in the populations of North Africa and the north-western part of the Arabian peninsula…The Benin haplotype was found in patients with severe disease, either as homozygous or in combination with another haplotype. The majority of Syrians and Jordanians had the Benin haplotype, and severe disease. However, one in three Syrians and one in five Jordanians had a milder disease, and the Saudi-Indian haplotype was identified. All Saudi patients from south-western and north-western areas, where the disease is generally severe, had the Benin haplotype in the homozygous or heterozygous state. Of the Saudi patients from the eastern area, where a mild form of SCD exists, only 9% had the Benin haplotype. The remainder had the Saudi-Indian haplotype, either in its homozygous or heterozygous state…Restriction endonuclease restriction sites have provided a useful insight into the normal polymorphic variations in the DNA surrounding various gene loci, where a combination of two or more polymorphic sites has led to the identification of specific haplotype patterns [13,14]. This has been of significance in the study of the regions surrounding the b-globin gene (i.e. the b-globin gene cluster), where several polymorphic sites have been identified, and population differences have been found on analysis of the haplotype pattern [9]. An interesting observation is that the sickle-cell mutation has occurred on chromosomes carrying different polymorphic sites and different b-globin gene haplotypes, and this seems to play a role in the clinical expression of SCD [9].
We compared the haplotype pattern of SCD patients from different Arabic-speaking countries. Benin haplotype was the major haplotype in all countries with a severe presentation of SCD and it was present in both the homozygous and heterozygous state. This was true for those SCD patients from south-western and north-western areas of Saudi Arabia, and for those from Egypt, Jordan and Syrian Arab Republic. On the other hand, patients from the eastern part of Saudi Arabia, who present with a significantly milder clinical picture, carried the Saudi-Indian b-globin gene haplotype either in its homozygous or heterozygous state."
As far as the issue of E3a in Egyptians is concerned, this can be seen from Maca Meyer et al's studies on the Nile Valley populations, and Luis et al.'s "The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations" [and this was in "Northern Egyptians" that Luis et al. sampled] as examples amongst others.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:King_scorpion: Again with the Mande Supermen Winters? I like how you quote yourself though...
He always quotes himself since he can't find other scholars that supports his theory, I would do the same if i was him. More than twenty years in the academic field is not a joke.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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"Haplotype XI is an "Oriental" haplotype (Lucotte and Smets, 1999); and the mean frequency of 11.3% observed for this peculiar haplotype in the various western populations studied here is suggestive of the corresponding contribution in their gene pools, coming -in historical times- from such regions as Egypt (Persichetti et al, 1992) or East Africa (Pasarino et al,1998). The most elevated percentages of haplotype XI observed in the present study concern Songhaiis (from Niger) and Bambaras (from Mali)."
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: First of all Mande is just one of the many descendants of the proto-Niger-Congo ancestral language, which some linguists like Chris Ehret deem to be approx. 15 ky old. The Bantu branch, for instance, the speakers of it, have been determined to have expanded from where Cameroon [perhaps ultimately originating in southern Nigerian region] now lies to "equatorial forests of the Congo about 5,000 years ago [see Felix Marti et al. 2005]."
These people took with them, the iron technology already developed in West Africa. Given this, what makes you think that divergances within Niger-Congo superfamily hadn't occurred by 5 ky ago?
As I have noted in another thread, "Yam" cultivation beginnings in west Africa, have been traced back to ca. 11 ky ago if not at least. This is still amongst important cultivation items in the Niger river delta region. Similar tools used for cultivation purposes have been located in parts of Central Africa dating to about the same period, earlier and later. And then you have pottery, which have been compared with Saharan types, and are deemed to have some affinities.
Genetics dates divergence of E3a carriers from the PN2 lineage at ~ 18.8 ky ago [see Semino et al., 2004], which is reasonable, given the proposed age for the proto-Niger-Congo language's age at ca. 15ky old.
You have not been keeping up with the thread. I am specifically talking about West Africans who live in the Senegal (Mauretania)-Guinee-Niger Bend region.
You are correct about people living in Nigeria , Cameroon etc., prior to the settlement of the Niger Bend. As a linguist I would never date any language back to 15,000 years ago because there is no way to verify such a date.
I don't believe you will find too many people supportin Ehret's dating of Bantu. One of the reasons Nostratic is not accepted by most linguist because of the dating of the language back to 10,000+ BC.
We don't really know where the Bantu migration began. Linguists place the home of the Proto-Bantu, based on the greatest diversity theory. Greatest diversity theory states that the location where there is greatest diversity of a language family is probably the homeland of the family. Since the greatest diversity of Bantu languages is in Cameroon, they named this as the location of Proto-Bantu.
It is interesting to note, that eventhough the greatest diverisy of Semitic languages is in Ethiopia, many researchers continue to claim that the Middle East is the original homeland for the speakers of this language family.
quote:King_scorpion: Again with the Mande Supermen Winters? I like how you quote yourself though...
He always quotes himself since he can't find other scholars that supports his theory, I would do the same if i was him. More than twenty years in the academic field is not a joke.
You're full of it. Kivisild et al, always quote their articles in every paper they write. You quote your papers so you can leave a publication record. If you ever had any papers published you would know this.
quote:King_scorpion: Again with the Mande Supermen Winters? I like how you quote yourself though...
He always quotes himself since he can't find other scholars that supports his theory, I would do the same if i was him. More than twenty years in the academic field is not a joke.
You're full of it. Kivisild et al, always quote their articles in every paper they write. You quote your papers so you can leave a publication record. If you ever had any papers published you would know this.
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Here is an example:
quote: The Role of Selection in the Evolution of Human Mitochondrial Genomes Toomas Kivisild*,2,1, Peidong Shen ,2, Dennis P. Wall ,3, Bao Do , Raphael Sung , Karen Davis , Giuseppe Passarino , Peter A. Underhill*, Curt Scharfe , Antonio Torroni**, Rosaria Scozzari , David Modiano , Alfredo Coppa , Peter de Knijff***, Marcus Feldman , Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza* and Peter J. Oefner ,2,4 *
MITOCHONDRIAL DNA (mtDNA) encodes for 13 proteins, two ribosomal genes, and 22 tRNAs that are essential in the energy production of the human cell. Variation in the sequence of mtDNA has provided significant insights into the maternal history of anatomically modern humans (GILES et al. 1980; DENARO et al. 1981), complementing the paternal legacy of the Y chromosome (UNDERHILL et al. 2000). Studies based on restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) of the coding and direct sequencing of the noncoding control region have formed the basis of a hierarchical classification of distinct geographic and ethnic affinities (TORRONI et al. 1993, 1996; CHEN et al. 1995; WATSON et al. 1997; MACAULAY et al. 1999; FORSTER et al. 2001). Studies addressing sequence variation in the mtDNA coding region have suggested that natural selection has significantly shaped the course of human mtDNA evolution (CANN et al. 1984; NACHMAN et al. 1996; INGMAN and GYLLENSTEN 2001; MISHMAR et al. 2003; MOILANEN et al. 2003; MOILANEN and MAJAMAA 2003; ELSON et al. 2004; RUIZ-PESINI et al. 2004).
An unrooted tree from a median-joining network (BANDELT et al. 1999) was drawn and labeled following existing mtDNA haplogroup nomenclature (TORRONI et al. 1996, 2001; MACAULAY et al. 1999; KIVISILD et al. 2002, 2004; SALAS et al. 2002; YAO et al. 2002; KONG et al. 2003, 2004; SHEN et al. 2005) . The tree was rooted using nuclear inserts of mtDNA retrieved from human genomic sequence and the consensus sequence of the three chimpanzee mitochondrial genomes. The accession numbers, mtDNA positional range, and identity (ID) measures of the genomic contigs containing the inserts that were used for rooting are as follows: NT_006713.14 (bp 341–2697; ID 94%); NT_009237.17 (bp 521–2976; ID 94%); NT_006316.15 (bp 2899–3050; ID 94%); NT_077913.3 (bp 3914–9756; ID 98%); and NT_034772.5 (bp 10,269–15,487; ID 94%). The assembled sequence of the inserts is available at http://insertion.stanford.edu/mtDNA.html. The GenBank accession numbers of the two Pan troglodytes and one Pan paniscus sequences that were used are D38113, X93335, and D38116, respectively. Haplogroup divergence estimates and their error ranges were calculated as averages of the distances from the tips to the most recent common ancestor of the haplogroup (FORSTER et al. 1996; SAILLARD et al. 2000). Two separate measures of nonsynonymous (N) to synonymous (S) substitution ratios were used: first, the MN/MS ratio estimates the number of mutational changes inferred from the phylogenetic tree (Figure 1), and second, the dN/(dS + constant) refers as in MISHMAR et al. (2003) to the ratio of the average pairwise distances of N and S changes in the given sample. Statistical significance was determined from binomial or 2 probabilities. Disease-implicated substitutions were excluded from these analyses. For interspecies comparisons, mammalian mtDNA sequences were retrieved from the Mitochondriome website (http://bighost.area.ba.cnr.it/mitochondriome/Mt_chordata.htm).
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As you can clearly see these researchers quote their previous research. This is the scholarly way. You have to remember that new research is built upon prior research.
posted
^ You have been called out before, Clyde for using outdated sources. Even Kivilsid changed his findings once more accurate analysis was presented. Indians do NOT have M1 period.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: We've gone through the Brace study [2005], which only had a single west African sample from Benin. He has already acknowledged the glaring flaws in his earlier studies. As for Batrawi, from what I've read, I don't recall him talking about west African being distinct from the Nile Valley, so citation along those lines would be welcomed. Please understand that I'm asking you these specifics based on your original mention of "quite distant from West Africans", when it is clear that West Africa has a host of people with diverse phenotypes, discussed ad nauseam here. In fact, Keita and others before him, have shown that AE crania fit both the so-called 'broad' and 'elongated' archetypes. In this regard, it would be interesting to note why AE crania would be "quite distant from that of West Africans".
I understand that Mystery. I never said Egyptians were very distant from West Africans but rather they are of course closer to neighboring northeast Africans. Of course both broad-type and narrow-type Africans are common in all regions of Africa, but we have to keep in mind the clinal pattern involved.
And Yonis, Hotep is indeed correct that Benin HBS (sickle cell) was found among the remains of ancient Egyptians. No doubt this is due to shared Saharan origins with West Africans.
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posted
You guys are bringing me back in. I was trying hard to stay away :-)
There is much evidence that the West Africans have an East Africn ancestry. The question is how far back in time did they split. You have the DNA studies, but you all haven't read them closely enough.
The genetic proof is the L3 mtDNA in West Africans. The original West Africans were probably Khoisan-like with L1 and L2 mtDNAs. L1 is found all over the northern half of the African continent. The L3 mtDNAs are definitely from East Africa. Many mtDNAs found in African Americans are EXACTLY the same as in East Africans including modern Egyptians and Ethiopians.
The original Y chromozome of the West Africans was probably A. At some point around 4000 to 3000 years ago tall Sudanic type Negroes began to enter West Africa. Probably E3a and these men married local pygmy-type women.
West African animals, especially in the jungle areas, tend to be smaller in size. So, were the original West African peole.
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posted
There is much archaeological proof that East Africans posssibly (Nubians and Egyptians and others) ended up in West Africa.
THIS IS MY SPECIAL TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LISTEN UP! The tumuli and megalithic structures from Egypt, Nubia and Ethiopia go directly across from East Africa to West Africa ending up in Senegambia HINT. WAKE UP! I've been saying this all over the Internet for a while now. The ones in Senegambia are the youngest.
If you have been paying attention to my Rock Art posts, you'd remember elsewhere me saying I found a pic of a "boat" on a cave wall in Mali, West Africa which is the only one of this type outside of Upper Egypt.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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Dr. A.M. LAM details in his 400+ page book the Egyptian Origin of the FULANI. They use the exact same shepherd stick as the Ancient Egyptians
Half of the African American population's female ancestry is from the Rice Coast of Africa from Senegal to Liberia. The two language groups that make up this area is Mande and West Atlantic which includes the Fulani, and Wolof.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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First of all Mande is just one of the many descendants of the proto-Niger-Congo ancestral language, which some linguists like Chris Ehret deem to be approx. 15 ky old. The Bantu branch, for instance, the speakers of it, have been determined to have expanded from where Cameroon [perhaps ultimately originating in southern Nigerian region] now lies to "equatorial forests of the Congo about 5,000 years ago [see Felix Marti et al. 2005]."
These people took with them, the iron technology already developed in West Africa. Given this, what makes you think that divergances within Niger-Congo superfamily hadn't occurred by 5 ky ago?
As I have noted in another thread, "Yam" cultivation beginnings in west Africa, have been traced back to ca. 11 ky ago if not at least. This is still amongst important cultivation items in the Niger river delta region. Similar tools used for cultivation purposes have been located in parts of Central Africa dating to about the same period, earlier and later. And then you have pottery, which have been compared with Saharan types, and are deemed to have some affinities.
Genetics dates divergence of E3a carriers from the PN2 lineage at ~ 18.8 ky ago [see Semino et al., 2004], which is reasonable, given the proposed age for the proto-Niger-Congo language's age at ca. 15ky old.
You have not been keeping up with the thread. I am specifically talking about West Africans who live in the Senegal (Mauretania)-Guinee-Niger Bend region.
This is incoherent. What do you mean “keeping up with the thread”, when it is “you” who was answering “my” comment? What is there for me to keep up with…other than to say that your reply is not only inaccurate but fails to address the comment it was purportedly addressing? If anything, it is your reply to my comment, which indicates that you haven’t kept up with what was said in my comment.
quote:Clyde Winters:
You are correct about people living in Nigeria , Cameroon etc., prior to the settlement of the Niger Bend. As a linguist I would never date any language back to 15,000 years ago because there is no way to verify such a date.
Which renders your blanket statement that “many Niger-Congo speakers only entered West Africa over the past 4000 years,” false. The understanding alone that the ancestral Bantu speakers arrived from Nigerian region [West Africa] in the equatorial forests of the Congo at ca. 5000 years ago [longer than your “4000 years” timeframe], is enough to instill common sense even in a less-than-average intelligent person about Niger Congo speakers having been in the region long before the 4000 years time frame.
Good for speaking for yourself; just because you are incapable of predicting the age of languages, doesn’t mean that other linguists are also incapacitated in doing so. Other researchers have said the same thing about the language age as Ehret said.
quote:Clyde Winters: I don't believe you will find too many people supportin Ehret's dating of Bantu. One of the reasons Nostratic is not accepted by most linguist because of the dating of the language back to 10,000+ BC.
Where is the piece in which Ehret mentioned anything about Bantu herein?…and you said I’m the one not keeping up with what is being said?
quote:Clyde Winters:
We don't really know where the Bantu migration began.
Who are “we”? Speak for yourself. I’ve already mentioned from where and at about when they began to expand. If you don’t like it, then that is “your” problem, not “ours”.
quote:Clyde Winters:
Linguists place the home of the Proto-Bantu, based on the greatest diversity theory. Greatest diversity theory states that the location where there is greatest diversity of a language family is probably the homeland of the family. Since the greatest diversity of Bantu languages is in Cameroon, they named this as the location of Proto-Bantu.
Again, showing your inattentiveness, and so, I reiterate:
Proto-Bantu speakers have been deemed to come from the Niger Valley region, particularly the Nigerian region. Their spread has been correlated with not only genetic markers and with the spread of iron technology from West Africa to central, east and southern Africa, but also by way of linguistic reconstructions.
quote:Clyde Winters:
It is interesting to note, that even though the greatest diverisy of Semitic languages is in Ethiopia, many researchers continue to claim that the Middle East is the original homeland for the speakers of this language family.
^Logical fallacy. There are many more who place the origins of Semitic languages in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
We've gone through the Brace study [2005], which only had a single west African sample from Benin. He has already acknowledged the glaring flaws in his earlier studies. As for Batrawi, from what I've read, I don't recall him talking about west African being distinct from the Nile Valley, so citation along those lines would be welcomed. Please understand that I'm asking you these specifics based on your original mention of "quite distant from West Africans", when it is clear that West Africa has a host of people with diverse phenotypes, discussed ad nauseam here. In fact, Keita and others before him, have shown that AE crania fit both the so-called 'broad' and 'elongated' archetypes. In this regard, it would be interesting to note why AE crania would be "quite distant from that of West Africans".
I understand that Mystery. I never said Egyptians were very distant from West Africans but rather they are of course closer to neighboring northeast Africans. Of course both broad-type and narrow-type Africans are common in all regions of Africa, but we have to keep in mind the clinal pattern involved.
You make it seem that I’ve put words in your mouth. Who said this?…
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
^Was it not you?
quote:Djehuti:
And Yonis, Hotep is indeed correct that Benin HBS (sickle cell) was found among the remains of ancient Egyptians. No doubt this is due to shared Saharan origins with West Africans.
Benin haplotype sickel cell is deemed to have west African origin…hence the name Benin haplotype. That is what makes its presence in contemporary Egyptians interesting.
quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow:
There is much evidence that the West Africans have an East Africn ancestry. The question is how far back in time did they split. You have the DNA studies, but you all haven't read them closely enough.
The genetic proof is the L3 mtDNA in West Africans. The original West Africans were probably Khoisan-like with L1 and L2 mtDNAs.
What study are basing the idea that the “original West Africans were probably Khoisan-like” on? And is this genotype or phenotype?
quote:MyRedCow: The original Y chromozome of the West Africans was probably A. At some point around 4000 to 3000 years ago tall Sudanic type Negroes began to enter West Africa. Probably E3a and these men married local pygmy-type women.
On what study are you basing the idea that “tall Sudanic type Negroes only began to enter West Africa at some point around 4,000 to 3,000 years ago”?
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Prehistory Archaeological studies at Mejiro Cave have found that early human settlers, probably related to the Pygmies, had arrived in West Africa around 12,000 B.C.E. Microlithic stone industries have been found primarily in the region of the Savannah where fairly advanced pastoral tribes existed using chiseled stone blades and spears. The tribesmen of Guinea and the forested regions of the coast were without microliths for thousands of years, but prospered using bone tools and other means. In the fifth millennium, as the ancestors of modern West Africans began entering the area, the development of sedentary farming began to take place in West Africa, with evidences of domesticated cattle having been found for this period, along with limited cereal crops. Around 3000 BCE, a major change began to take place in West African society, with microliths becoming more common in the Sahel region, with the invention of primitive harpoons and fish-hooks.
Ancient West Africa included the Sahara, as the Sahara only became a desert in around 3000 BC (see Sahara).
A major migration of Sahel cattle farmers took place in the third millennium BCE, and the pastoralists encountered the developed hunter-gatherers of the Guinea region. Flint was considerably more available there and made the use of microliths in hunting far easier. The migration of the Sahel farmers was likely caused by the final desiccation of the Sahara desert in this millennium, which contributed greatly to West Africa's isolation from cultural and technological phenomena in Europe and the Mediterranean Coast of Africa. Nevertheless, the increased use of iron and the spread of ironworking technology led to improved weaponry and enabled farmers to expand agricultural productivity and produce surplus crops, which together supported the growth of urban city-states into empires.
By 400 BCE, contact had been made with the Mediterranean civilizations, including that of Carthage, and a regular trade in gold being conducted with the Sahara Berbers, as noted by Herodotus. The trade was fairly small until the camel was introduced, with Mediterranean goods being found in pits as far south as Northern Nigeria. A profitable trade had developed by which West Africans exported gold, cotton cloth, metal ornaments, and leather goods north across the trans-Saharan trade routes, in exchange for copper, horses, salt, textiles, and beads. Later, ivory, slaves, and kola nuts were added to the trade. Empires
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posted
The original humans all over Africa were Khoisan like. They had the L1 mtDNA. These are the first humans period. As time went on L2 developed from L1 and then L3 developed in East Africa.
In every region you can find some L1, L2, and L3 where there are Blacks. In West Africa you can find L3 in almost every tribe. L3 is strongest in West Africa with Afroasitic speakers and people along the Rice Coast. L3 is very strong in African Americans.
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Oprah was told that she was Zulu. She is Kpelle a Mande speaking people in Liberia. I'm pretty sure her mtDNA is L1. She has the wide face, large rear and shirt stature that points to a more pygmy like background.
The pygmy women have larger bottoms to store up nutrition in case of drought because they are hunter gatherers.
The tall Sudanic type farmers, the Negroes, had a more complex society and were farmers. They came from the Nile Valley and introduced megalithic architecture into West Africa.
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posted
The Niger-Congo languanges are the second oldest in the world. Only the San languages are older. Afroasiatic is 3rd and belongs to L3. The basis human culture was formed by L1 khoisan-type woemn and men throughout Africa. It is the basis for Voodoo-like religions which use spirit possession and spiritual dance. This was absorbed into the cultures of all the Blacks who followed.
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posted
Useful observations re the above topic, but here are some questions and points.
To Doug,
Is it correct that MOST(i.e. not all) Euro-Americans state that their genealogies are rarely mono-ethnic or mono-national. It's always something like Polish with German with Italian; or English with Swiss with something else, etc. ; or Irish with English with Swiss, etc?
To Others:
Is there any linguistic evidence as to how old the Niger-Kordofan languages of West Africa are? In other words, when did Most Recent Common Linguistic Ancestors exist?
Is there an approximate separation date for the E3a haplogroups of West Africa and those further East as in the case of the Sudan and Egypt?
If West Africa was settled some 10,000 YA(sic Doug) then how do we explain the existence of the Senegalese E3 and the fact that the Haplotype map for Africa seems pretty much uniform in terms of percentages of certain lineages?
IMPORTANT: Some archaelogists/anthropologists such as Glyn Daniels have researched the idea of "Divine Kingship" as a shared cultural trait between some West African groups and that of the ancient Egypto/Nubian complex. Comments?
Others have pointed out that certain cultural forms such as "King's Headrest" shaped in a parabolic form resembles those of AE.
I once attended an exhibition of Ife and Benin cultural artifacts and noted that the diadems and head-dress of the kings seemed similar to those worn by the pharaohs of AE. Comments?
The German anthropologist Frobenius noted--whether correctly or not--that the ruling castes of many West African groups were phenotypically distiguishable from their kinsmen and that they frequently claimed recent migratory origins from further East. Comments?
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Is there any linguistic evidence as to how old the Niger-Kordofan languages of West Africa are? In other words, when did Most Recent Common Linguistic Ancestors exist?
It is impossible to date the common ancestor of any language.
Some researchers claim that you can use lexico-statistics to date languages by comparing terms from a 100 to 200 word list of culture terms. The use of word list alone can never confirm or disconfirm a linguistic connection within and among languages. Comparison of basic terms can be used to show a genetic relationship, but use of word list, like the Swadesh list was never meant to be used solely for identifying linguistic relationship.
To understand prehistoric developments and the relative time depth for the separation of two or more (sub-)languages in a Superfamily of languages we look at the basic lexicon which includes terms describing generic human experiences. The Swadesh list of basic terms is primarily used to calculate time depths is referred to as glottochronology or lexico-statistics.
In this method you count lexical items from two or more languages that share regular phonetic and sound correspondence. Once the common retention rate for languages is computed you can then theoretically, calculate the date the speakers of these languages separated.
Test of this hypothesis using languages with long written histories (i.e., the existence of text documenting changes within the vocabulary, morphology and etc., of the sub-languages)in Superlanguage families like German and Romance indicate that the time-frame determined for these languages using glottochronology fail to correspond to traditional views regarding the break up of the respective proto-languages(see: T. Bynon, Historical Linguistics (Cambridge U Press,1979):266-272). Bynon observed that "There can be no doubt that the method introduces an element of arbitrariness in that different investigators are likely to make different decisions with regard to the same data."
Given the failure of the use of lexico-statistics to accurately date languages with abundant written records, it would be highly unlikely this method can be used to describe historical connection between languages lacking any written text to confirm any results you might obtain.
Further more you have the reality of "linguistic stability/continuity" within African languages that make it almost impossible to use lexico-statistics to determine time frames within African languages. The theory of linguistic continuity, stated simply means that certain languages evolve more slowly than others. Because languages change at different rates, some languages retain more basic terms that show very little change over time, than other languages .(See: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8919/ling.htm )
This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the continuity or stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time (pp.153-154).
In Nouvelles recherches sur l'egyptien ancien et les langues Negro-Africaine Modernes, Diop wrote that:
The permanence of these forms not only, constitute today a solid base...upon which...[we are to re-]construct diachronic African [languages], but obliges also a radical revision of these ideas, a priori...on the evolution of these languages in general (p.17).
There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used Glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms.
Molecular material can not be used to describe a groups language, or the existence or non-existence of a language 10,000+ years ago. For example, researchers can find Nigerians and Afro-Americans both carrying L1 haplogroup, but these groups speak different languages. Unless the subjects of a study self-report the language they speak or ethnic backgroup we would know nothing about their heritage and language.
Until scientists can find a unique gene for each language spoken by human beings we can not use genes to tell us which group spoke this or that language.
There are two major problems with using molecular data to support claims for linguistic movements. First, the population used in genetic studies is usually representative of people living in regions today. There is no way we can be sure that these people represent the ancient inhabitants of a region. For example, the Tihama culture exist in Arabia and Ethiopia. One would assume that this culture probably originated in this region. But the archaeology makes it clear that the pottery used by these people originated in Kerma-Nubia, and therefore, may ,suggest a migration of the bearers of this culture from the Nile Valley.
Secondly, the subjects in most genetic studies are an available sample of the people who volunteer to take a genetists test. As a result, the sample can not be proven to be representative of the population from whence the available sample was taken.
Given the problems with genetic data and lexico-statistics, the only way we can realiably date a language is through the study of textual material written in that language.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: My claim! Well, I (and not humble at all) can say without a shadow of a doubt that as an African-American, that some of my relatives once lived in the ancient Nile Valley; If I have, and of course I do, one Wolof or Yoruba or Fulani or Tuareg ancestor (I probably have all four) then my ancestry can be traced back to the ancient Nile Valley (Yes, to Kemet). I can also expect to find relatives in the kingdoms and provinces of Benin, Kanem-Bornu, Songhai, Mali, Sankore; also amongst the Dogon, the Kongo, the Zulu... There is simply too much history and science to dispute this, my heritage. A fool might give it a try, but... [/QB]
I think this was the point... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow: Oprah was told that she was Zulu. She is Kpelle a Mande speaking people in Liberia. I'm pretty sure her mtDNA is L1. She has the wide face, large rear and shirt stature that points to a more pygmy like background.
The pygmy women have larger bottoms to store up nutrition in case of drought because they are hunter gatherers.
The tall Sudanic type farmers, the Negroes, had a more complex society and were farmers. They came from the Nile Valley and introduced megalithic architecture into West Africa.
Alright, I've seen tall women here in America (like 5'10, 5'11) that had big butts...LOL...so...I don't think it's defined by simply the shorter pygmy-like women.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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You say that it is impossible to date the common ancestor of any languages. Well what the known approximate dates at which French, Spanish, Italian, Portugese were derived from late Latin and indigenous European languages.
To Redcow:
Note that the term "negro" has been shown to be lacking in scientific content and belongs to the literature of "scientific racism".
Re steatopygia:
Apparently it has been noted with the so-called neolithic Venuses of Europe and elsewhere outside of Africa. I doubt the explanation given for its existence. It probably is just a variation on a human trait--as with any other trait--that has resulted from genetic drift and assorted mating.
One might note that gluteus maximus of females of European background might contain just as much fat but configured differently in the sense of being less angled but spread over a wider region. Again, I explain that by appeal to the contingencies of genetic drift and assorted mating.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Prehistory Archaeological studies at Mejiro Cave have found that early human settlers, probably related to the Pygmies, had arrived in West Africa around 12,000 B.C.E. Microlithic stone industries have been found primarily in the region of the Savannah where fairly advanced pastoral tribes existed using chiseled stone blades and spears. The tribesmen of Guinea and the forested regions of the coast were without microliths for thousands of years, but prospered using bone tools and other means. In the fifth millennium, as the ancestors of modern West Africans began entering the area, the development of sedentary farming began to take place in West Africa, with evidences of domesticated cattle having been found for this period, along with limited cereal crops. Around 3000 BCE, a major change began to take place in West African society, with microliths becoming more common in the Sahel region, with the invention of primitive harpoons and fish-hooks.
Ancient West Africa included the Sahara, as the Sahara only became a desert in around 3000 BC (see Sahara).
A major migration of Sahel cattle farmers took place in the third millennium BCE, and the pastoralists encountered the developed hunter-gatherers of the Guinea region. Flint was considerably more available there and made the use of microliths in hunting far easier. The migration of the Sahel farmers was likely caused by the final desiccation of the Sahara desert in this millennium, which contributed greatly to West Africa's isolation from cultural and technological phenomena in Europe and the Mediterranean Coast of Africa. Nevertheless, the increased use of iron and the spread of ironworking technology led to improved weaponry and enabled farmers to expand agricultural productivity and produce surplus crops, which together supported the growth of urban city-states into empires.
By 400 BCE, contact had been made with the Mediterranean civilizations, including that of Carthage, and a regular trade in gold being conducted with the Sahara Berbers, as noted by Herodotus. The trade was fairly small until the camel was introduced, with Mediterranean goods being found in pits as far south as Northern Nigeria. A profitable trade had developed by which West Africans exported gold, cotton cloth, metal ornaments, and leather goods north across the trans-Saharan trade routes, in exchange for copper, horses, salt, textiles, and beads. Later, ivory, slaves, and kola nuts were added to the trade. Empires
I hope you realize that your own source contradicts your earlier statement about “tall Sudanic type Negroes” [btw a blatant throwback to Eurocentric stereotyping] arriving in the West African region at ca. 4000 to 3000 years ago. This [your earlier statement] is immediately rendered questionable, when one simply considers the understanding that proto-Bantu speakers arose in the Nigerian-Cameroon border region at ca. 5000 years ago B.P. So what does this tell us?…that Niger-Congo speaking groups had already been in the region prior to 5000 years B.P. Your citation itself places the arrival of “ancestors of modern West Africans” at ca. 7000 years ago B.P.
If your citation is putting farming in west Africa at ca. 5000 BC, what is it basing this on?…Yam? If so, here is what others have noted about this:
The two prerequisites for the regular use of tubers as food - a digging tool for excavating them and fire to cook them (for they are indigestible raw) - were present in West Africa by Sangoan times. Fire is attested from the Late Acheulian (Oakley 1961). The Sangoan pick, in contrast to the delicate Acheulian biface which proceeded it, would be of little use for chopping or cutting and would be heavy and clumsy in any operation of hunting. One of its main purposes must have been digging - probably for tubers, since the digging of game-traps with such a tool would have been backbreaking work…
The cultivation of tubers may have begun when it was observed that the hard, inedible head of the yam, which was cut off and thrown away, sometimes took root in the mess around an encampment or in the loose earth whence the tuber had been dug. At some stage, perhaps quite early, men would have deliberately placed it in a suitable soil, so that more yams would grow. It is likely that they did this around the large Late Lupemban settlements of the Northwest, a region at all times inclined to aridity, where yams would need encouragement. Certain modern tribes are reported to collect and plant wild yams of many species (Chevalier 1936).” - Oliver Davies, The Origins of Agriculture in West Africa
The two most important food crops in southern West Africa are yams and the oil palm. Participants in the symposium, such as Harris (1976), Shaw (1976), highlighted a great deal of indirect evidence - botanical, ecological, archeological, and ethnographic - strongly indicating that these two crops were exploited together and that yam cultivation probably began ca. 11,000 BP. - M. A. Sowunmi
By around 7000-6000 BCE, the descendants of these first cattle keepers started also to cultivate crops. The early staple of their "Sudanic" agriculture was sorghum, now a crop of almost worldwide importance (see photos, courtesy of the author).
Still another independent invention of agriculture took place in West Africa among early inhabitants speaking languages of the Niger-Congo family. The West African cultivation ideas are also very old, possibly dating as long ago as 9000-7000 BCE. The early staple of this agriculture was probably the Guinea yam, but West African farmers also domesticated a number of other crops, now well known outside Africa, including okra and black-eyed peas (cow-peas). Over the past 4,000 years in the more western parts of West Africa, another crop, African rice, replaced yams in importance. - Christopher Ehret.
As for rice cultivation in the region…
The overall history of rice in West Africa went something like this. In around the third millennium BCE, the proto-Mande people greatly enhanced their agricultural productivity by domesticating African rice, indigenous to the wetland environments of the Inland Delta. With this economic advantage, the proto-Mande society grew in numbers and territory. Gradually, after 2000 BCE, the society broke apart into a number of daughter societies, as the descendants of the proto-Mande spread wider and wider southward, bringing rice cultivation into new areas. In the hinterland of the Guinea Coast, local peoples who were not of the Mande group adopted rice growing from their Mande neighbours. But because they lived in a much different kind of wetland environment along the estuaries, they set about inventing a new technology to make cultivation possible. - Chris Ehret.
All having taken place well before 4000 years ago BP. If your article places use of Iron in the region by the 3rd millennium BC, which isn’t necessarily clear at this point, then this would be consistent with claims made elsewhere, and in which case, would place this development well before of the 4000 years timeframe.
On an additional note, if as said by the cited authors, that there are indicators of yam cultivation in the west African region ca. 11000 years ago or so, then going by a relatively later arrival by “ancestors of modern West Africans”, one would have to assume that these ancestors adopted yam cultivation from people who were already in the region prior to their arrival. If so, what evidence is there to suggest this?
quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow:
The original humans all over Africa were Khoisan like. They had the L1 mtDNA. These are the first humans period. As time went on L2 developed from L1 and then L3 developed in East Africa.
L1 has an east African origin, and as such, how do you deem it to be “Khoisan-like”?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Useful observations re the above topic, but here are some questions and points.
To Doug,
Is it correct that MOST(i.e. not all) Euro-Americans state that their genealogies are rarely mono-ethnic or mono-national. It's always something like Polish with German with Italian; or English with Swiss with something else, etc. ; or Irish with English with Swiss, etc?
I would say most, in the sense that AT SOME POINT, most European Americans maintained a national conscious of their roots in Europe. Historically, various immigrant groups competed for jobs and power in America, over other immigrants. This caused much friction between the later arrivals of Polish, French, Italian and other ethnic groups in America. Of the first settlers, most dont really consider themselves as a nationality, because they mostly came from Britain, but subsequently fought AGAINST the British for independence. Therefore, those that came later as immigrant workers, had a much more pronounced sense of national identity in America, because of the competition and outward hostility of other European ethnic groups and Americans against them. But also important was nationalistic pride in the acheivements of those groups in America. Italians were famous as stonemasons, Germans were known for their mills and industrial skills, etc.
While not as predominant today, these themes still run strong among some segments of the European American population.
Posts: 8895 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
To Mystery Solver, I apprently did not clarify my point about the craniometry. What I meant to say was that Egyptian crania are more distant to West Africans in comparison to other neighboring peoples in northeast Africa and even in sub-Saharan East Africa. Do you not agree with this assessment? Surely Egyptians by and large are closer related to neighboring groups than to populations all the way across the continent in the Guinea Coast.
To My Red Cow, your problem is that you correlate certain phenotypes with certain lineages. L3 is found among many populations across the continent regardless of whether they are Afrasian speakers or not. L3 has nothing to do with Afrasian let alone Egyptians. You may not realize it, but you are suscribing to the same type of useless racial typology that Eurocentrics used when you speak of "Khoisanid types" and "Negroid" types. All the indigenous populations of Africa are black but vary in phenotype to varying degrees. By the way, significant steatopygia (large buttocks) is NOT found among Pygmies alone or even hunter gatherers. As a perfect example, Ethiopia was found to be the earliest centers of complex culture including agriculture, yet I have seen plenty of Ethiopian women with rears just as ample.
And of course to Clyde, you are just frustrated because Mystery presents accurate linguistic evidence from valid linguists. Your complaints are hilarious considering you are the same person who clings to the belief of the sunken continent of Lemuria or is that 'Kumarinadu'! LMFOPosts: 26253 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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To Mystery Solver, I apprently did not clarify my point about the craniometry. What I meant to say was that Egyptian crania are more distant to West Africans in comparison to other neighboring peoples in northeast Africa and even in sub-Saharan East Africa. Do you not agree with this assessment? Surely Egyptians by and large are closer related to neighboring groups than to populations all the way across the continent in the Guinea Coast.
Of course, ancient Egyptian crania will cluster closely with neighbouring groups, due to proximity, but to adequately assess the "closeness" or "distance" of ancient Egyptian crania with those from west Africa, one would have studied adequate sampling from west Africa. The question is: Have Egyptian crania been compared with a wide variety of crania from west Africa?...and even so, as you have acknowledged, the AE crania were deemed to fit both the so-called 'elongated' and 'broad' archetypes. Matter of fact, certain lower Egyptian samples showed a modal pattern similar to those from the Maghreb. Are the Maghrebians not west Africans after all?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I didn't say it didn't exist...I just said I've seen tall women with big butts. You mean to tell me you haven't? And I still want to see where you can show all of this evidence of proof of East/West African relations.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:The original humans all over Africa were Khoisan like.
This is common claim made with and understandable basis, but it is overly simplistic.
If you were given a skeletan - could you clearly distinguish it as Khoisan as a *phenotype?*
That would be a remarkable claim because most anthropologist cannot, and do not ever agree.
Some anthropologists have refered to the oldest human remains found in the Nile Valley as being Negroid - Ethiopic, or Khoisanoid.
Like references have been made with regard to the oldest southern African remains.
This is what needs to be understood ->
Khoisan is a languge group, it is not a race.
There is no logic and no proof involved in the suggestion that all humans were once 'morphologically' khoisanoid.
Modern south African Khoisan have some particular adaptations which were not necessarily common in rift valley AFricans.
For example - south African Khoisan tend to lack the tropical limb ratios that characterise early rift valley and Nile Valley Africans.
It's also important to bear in mind the recent work of Tishkoff - who found that Tanzanian East Africans had the oldest maternal lineages to date.
Among these Tanzanians are: Masai, Datoga, [Nilotic], Burunge [Cushitic], Sandawe and Hadza [Khoisan].
All of these peoples have distinct phenotypes, and none of them look exactly like South African Khoisan.
Moreover, their are no people outside of Africa who look 'exactly' like the Khoisan either.
There is no proof that "Khoisan" constitutes *the original* phenotype, nor is it logical to imagine that Africa *ever* had a single phenotype.
And now....this is rendering of the oldest identified modern homo-sapiens, Herto man of Ethiopia, cira 150 kya:
^ Herto does not *particularly* resemble South African Khoisan anymore than he does Masai or Datoga.
Of course you can all him Khoisanoid, if you like...or Negroid, or even Caucazoid.
Stereotypes are easy to defend when they are not based on data, but only tautological reasoning and seeing exactly what we want to see....and nothing more.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^^And of course, even that rendition is the artist's interpretation of what the person could have looked like based on extrapolations, because the soft parts of the face covering the skull, which can make a lot of difference in how a living person looks, were apparently not available to provide precise detailing for the facial reconstruction.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: African Americans are descended from black African slaves as well as other African migrants in more recent times, from throughout the diaspora. The term African American does NOT only identify Americans who are descended from those who were brought to America as slaves. I know people from ALL OVER THE PLANET that are in America and called African American and are not descended from American slaves. Therefore, the term is NOT an absolute genetic reference or ethnic identity that has any real meaning relative to all the various populations in Africa. I know Guyanans, Jamaicans, Haitians, continental Africans and others who are all called African Americans today. That is EXACTLY the whole problem of the identity crisis for African Americans who descended from slaves, they have NO IDEA, in most cases, who they are and WHERE they are from. Americans from Europe dont call themselves European Americans, they call themselves Irish, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian, Greek, French, German and so on... American, all national identities. Only Africans from the diaspora are labelled as one monolithic group, which denies the fact that all Africans are not the same and all do not have the same background.
Why don't these Guyanese, Jamaicans, and Haitians classify themselves as so and not "African-American". Why would they labeled themselves "African-American" if they know their identity and who they are. African-Americans applies to those who are descendants of American slaves who were brought to the U.S.. Everyone knows that. Black Americans are American because that's who they are and where they're from, Haitians classify as Hatians because that who they are and where they are from. It is no difference when it comes to black "Americans". What makes someone who say I'm "Haitian", "Jamaican", or "Guyanese" are more aware of their identity and who they are, but when a black American say they are "American" it is flawed. Those black people from the Caribbean and South American don't have a clue of who their ancestors are except they were "African" slaves.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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What makes someone who say I'm "Haitian", "Jamaican", or "Guyanese" are more aware of their identity and who they are, but when a black American say they are "American" it is flawed. Those black people from the Caribbean and South American don't have a clue of who their ancestors are except they were "African" slaves. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Bettyboo, As one from the Caribbean group, I prefer to identify as being from Trinidad because that is where I was born and bred! By default, my Caribbean brothers/sisters and myself become "African American" ONLY based on the fact that we are not European and the racial attitudes that predominate classify us as such. That is why Obama is an African American! He becomes such by default and he is categorized by that Eurocentric scale. Many of us know our roots from the Caribbean and South America) but again it is a personal celebration we (I) do not share with those who are my adversaries. There are other roots other than African (like Asian-be it Asian Indian, Chinese, Japanese) in our part of the world and even the Haitians (from present day Dahomey) to Cubans (Nigeria-Yoruba/Hausa) and Brazil (Yoruba, Hausa, Angola) are knowledgeable with being sensitive that they will speak the language of the areas they came from so it is not necessarily America. African Americans as a group, do not have that intimate knowledge or language attributes of their former roots, and have less of cultural memory of a 'tribe' so the term African America is a new celebration of the nature of citizenship despite at one time African American, despite being born in North AMerica, were not considered America at all!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Betty, the problem is that Black Hatians, Jamaicans, Guyanans and Americans do NOT originate in those places. They ALL originate in Africa, all were part of the same slave routes that brought Africans to the Americas from Africa. Therefore, the fact that some are in Haiti, Guyana, Jamaica or the United States does not provide a true understanding of their place of origin IN AFRICA. Also, keep in mind that America , the continent, is not JUST the United States. Also, the reason why they would identify as African American or black is because these are the categories in the census:
quote: By January 1, 2003, all current surveys must comply with the 1997 revisions to the Office of Management and Budget's standards for data on race and ethnicity, which establish a minimum of five categories for race: American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Black or African American, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, and White. Respondents will be able to select one or more of these racial categories. The minimum categories for ethnicity will be Hispanic or Latino and Not Hispanic or Latino. Tabulations of the racial categories will be shown as long as they meet agency standards for data quality and confidentiality protection. For most surveys, however, tables will show data at most for the White, Black, and Asian populations.
None of these categories have anything to do with nationality, ethnicity or heritage and are meaningless when trying to understand the original homeland of origin of various populations.
Remember, the whole point here is that Africans in America, all parts of America from North to South, have had their true geneaological histories distorted and erased due to slavery. The black peoples in the Americas came from Africa, but not all from the same parts of Africa or the same ethnic group. Therefore, they are lumped together in meaningless categories such as "negro", "blacks" or African American. The point is that such terms have no bearing on the true geneaologies of Africans in America and their places of origin in Africa.
Posts: 8895 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The American race census is hilarious, a sudanese dinka (probably blackest people on earth) would be considered "white" while a light skinned Pakistani would not if they both came to U.S. by the authorities. Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet! merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Why don't these Guyanese, Jamaicans, and Haitians classify themselves as so and not "African-American". Why would they labeled themselves "African-American" if they know their identity and who they are. African-Americans applies to those who are descendants of American slaves who were brought to the U.S..
These people have their own Nation.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Betty, the term African-American implies an American of African descent whether of slave ancestry or not. And for the record it is a common misconception that blacks in the Caribbean are not descended from slaves when in fact the Caribbean is where the major slave ports were located!
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: The American race census is hilarious, a sudanese dinka (probably blackest people on earth) would be considered "white" while a light skinned Pakistani would not if they both came to U.S. by the authorities.
^ I don't even want to know what those colors indicate!
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet! merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
I think the US is the only nation in the world that uses outdated, debunked racial classifications!
LOL It reminds me of the black Nubian man from Egypt who sued the US government for classifying him as 'white'! LMAOPosts: 26253 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:The original humans all over Africa were Khoisan like.
This is common claim made with and understandable basis, but it is overly simplistic.
If you were given a skeletan - could you clearly distinguish it as Khoisan as a *phenotype?*
That would be a remarkable claim because most anthropologist cannot, and do not ever agree.
Some anthropologists have refered to the oldest human remains found in the Nile Valley as being Negroid - Ethiopic, or Khoisanoid.
Like references have been made with regard to the oldest southern African remains.
This is what needs to be understood ->
Khoisan is a languge group, it is not a race.
There is no logic and no proof involved in the suggestion that all humans were once 'morphologically' khoisanoid.
Modern south African Khoisan have some particular adaptations which were not necessarily common in rift valley AFricans.
For example - south African Khoisan tend to lack the tropical limb ratios that characterise early rift valley and Nile Valley Africans.
It's also important to bear in mind the recent work of Tishkoff - who found that Tanzanian East Africans had the oldest maternal lineages to date.
Among these Tanzanians are: Masai, Datoga, [Nilotic], Burunge [Cushitic], Sandawe and Hadza [Khoisan].
All of these peoples have distinct phenotypes, and none of them look exactly like South African Khoisan.
Moreover, their are no people outside of Africa who look 'exactly' like the Khoisan either.
There is no proof that "Khoisan" constitutes *the original* phenotype, nor is it logical to imagine that Africa *ever* had a single phenotype.
And now....this is rendering of the oldest identified modern homo-sapiens, Herto man of Ethiopia, cira 150 kya:
^ Herto does not *particularly* resemble South African Khoisan anymore than he does Masai or Datoga.
Of course you can all him Khoisanoid, if you like...or Negroid, or even Caucazoid.
Stereotypes are easy to defend when they are not based on data, but only tautological reasoning and seeing exactly what we want to see....and nothing more.
^ I don't know how the above cannot be stressed any more! I don't know why this misconception is so pervasive. What is the motive to claiming 'Khoisan' phenotype for early Homo Sapiens? Is it because of negrophobia and some folks feel more comfortable with having Khoisan who are not that dark as ancestors??
Posts: 26253 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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LOL It reminds me of the black Nubian man from Egypt who sued the US government for classifying him as 'white'! LMAO
You mean the black Egyptian man who sued the US government? He sued them because the census categorized all Egyptians as "whites" or "caucasians". I dont think he ever categorized himself as "Nubian", this is something that someone ELSE attached to him.....
posted
^ I recall reading a couple of articles where he was ethnically identified as Nubian and he did proclaim that himself. I believe he even comes from a Nubian community from Aswan.
Not that it would make much of a difference, since even a truly ethnic Egyptian from Luxor who is just as black would fall into the same situation.
Posts: 26253 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: African Americans are descended from black African slaves as well as other African migrants in more recent times, from throughout the diaspora. The term African American does NOT only identify Americans who are descended from those who were brought to America as slaves. I know people from ALL OVER THE PLANET that are in America and called African American and are not descended from American slaves. Therefore, the term is NOT an absolute genetic reference or ethnic identity that has any real meaning relative to all the various populations in Africa. I know Guyanans, Jamaicans, Haitians, continental Africans and others who are all called African Americans today. That is EXACTLY the whole problem of the identity crisis for African Americans who descended from slaves, they have NO IDEA, in most cases, who they are and WHERE they are from. Americans from Europe dont call themselves European Americans, they call themselves Irish, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian, Greek, French, German and so on... American, all national identities. Only Africans from the diaspora are labelled as one monolithic group, which denies the fact that all Africans are not the same and all do not have the same background.
Why don't these Guyanese, Jamaicans, and Haitians classify themselves as so and not "African-American". Why would they labeled themselves "African-American" if they know their identity and who they are. African-Americans applies to those who are descendants of American slaves who were brought to the U.S.. Everyone knows that. Black Americans are American because that's who they are and where they're from, Haitians classify as Hatians because that who they are and where they are from. It is no difference when it comes to black "Americans". What makes someone who say I'm "Haitian", "Jamaican", or "Guyanese" are more aware of their identity and who they are, but when a black American say they are "American" it is flawed. Those black people from the Caribbean and South American don't have a clue of who their ancestors are except they were "African" slaves.
I keep noticing that you keep saying that African Americans are descendants from slaves. You sound like a Euro ... actually you are a European who is talking something that you really don't understand.
First American Americans are Americans geographically which is why the "American" part of their name has not been removed, but you must remember they are the descendants of "AFRICANS" and not slaves. They are the descendants of AFRICANS who were ENSLAVED but not slaves.
This is what Eurocentrics in America do ... They try to work at keeping AA's stuck on the thought that they are nothing more then descendants from slaves but we know that we are descendants from Africans who were enslaved. I know of no village or Tribe in Africa named "Slave" but I have heard of a European culture that were called Slavs i.e. Slaves.
If they make you think that you are a descendant of a slave in America then that will stop you from further researching your history which they have somewhat done for the most part.
People like Yonis (racist) believe in such theories. I'm not going to get into this subject but what I do know is that Genetic research is not reliable in this debate ... and secondly to suggest that the people in surrounding neighbors represent the ancient Egyptians is laughable. Not laughable in the sense that some of them do not represent the Ancient Egyptians ... but laughable in the sense that one would willingly open their mouth and place limitations on how far the ancient Egyptians could migrate ... lol
There are ancient Egyptians on the West Coast of Africa enjoying that sea food and their are Egyptian descendants in other parts of Africa ... i.e. East Africa, South and North ...
And Yes there are direct descendants to Egyptians in America ... A fool would think otherwise ... Is that everyone ? of course not ... but their are some.
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:kephra: People like Yonis (racist) believe in such theories.
You should be banned for such personal attacks? I don't know you, infact this is the first post i've ever read made by you. No one has ever called me what you just called me, who the hell are you first of all?
If you're gonna call people names the least you can do is to back it up, stupid hoe!
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:kephra: People like Yonis (racist) believe in such theories.
You should be banned for such personal attacks? I don't know you, infact this is the first post i've ever read made by you. No one has ever called me what you just called me, who the hell are you first of all?
If you're gonna call people names the least you can do is to back it up, stupid hoe!
Personal attack? All one have to do is go through your post and see that you have a problem with a certain set of people.
If I'm banned for speaking the truth then that fine ...
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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You have been called out before, Clyde for using outdated sources. Even Kivilsid changed his findings once more accurate analysis was presented. Indians do NOT have M1 period.
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I don't even want to know what those colors indicate!
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