posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Another thread about an ancient people and culture that didn't exist: "Nubia".

Nubia is a modern geopolitical term used to reference areas in the South of Egypt and Northern Sudan. But there was no place called "Nubia" in the Nile Valley prior to AD time frames.

There also was no "A Group" or "C Group" either.

So, in that context, the only named entity we know of for certain in the predynastic for what came to be known as "Nubia" was Ta Seti. Ta Seti was an actual name for a population engaged in gold trading and other trading activities along the Nile. This culture basically is descended from ancient populations inhabiting the area between Wadi Kubanniya and Wadi Halfa on the Nile. This corresponds to roughly the area between Aswan and the Sudanese border. And it is between these two locations that you find the oldest settlement sites on the Nile.

quote:

---

In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers.

---

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/wadi/hd_wadi.htm

Note that the use of "Egypt", "Sudan" or "Nubia" in reference to any of these cultures is purely for modern geographical reference and has absolutely nothing to do with the ancient people or culture. All of the earliest sites of human activity along the Nile prior to the Dynastic era are in the South along the Nile between Upper Egypt and Sudan. So in that context, "Ta Seti" is simply the earliest known proto-state that arose from this area of human habitation going back tens of thousands of years to a time when that part of the Nile was a refuge for human settlement. Over time the Saharan wet phase began again and other populations moved to the Sahara and as the Sahara dried up humans shifted back to this area of the Upper Nile. And that is where the "A-Group" culture is labeled. But there was no "A-Group" because it implies A signifies the first in a sequence as in the first letter of the alphabet, but that is totally misleading and erroneous. History in that region of the Nile was many thousands of years older than that and so later cultures in the region cannot be the "first" in any sequence of culture or evolution.

As time went on this area dried up and the people moved north, along with other groups previously in other areas of the Nile and Sahara. And from that came the origins of the dynastic culture.

Unfortunately whenever you read the history of the Nile, the terms "Nubia", "Egypt" and "Sudan" are constantly used which only serves to muddy the water and cause confusion. There were no such countries, state borders or cultures along the NIle in 20,000 BC. People moved freely as the seasons and environments changed. That nomadic lifestyle and semi-nomadic lifestyle was the predominant lifestyle for most of human history and why using modern fixed borders as labels makes absolutely no sense.

quote:

---

The African origins of Egyptian civilisation lie in an important cultural horizon, the ‘primary pastoral community’, which emerged in both the Egyptian and Sudanese parts of the Nile Valley in the fifth millennium BC. A re-examination of the chronology, assisted by new AMS determinations from Neolithic sites in Middle Egypt, has charted the detailed development of these new kinds of society. The resulting picture challenges recent studies that emphasise climate change and environmental stress as drivers of cultural adaptation in north-east Africa. It also emphasises the crucial role of funerary practices and body decoration.

---

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cultural-convergence-in-the-neolithic-of-the-nile-valley-a-prehistoric-perspective-on-egypts-place-in-africa/198005B5D23B6 44951E17B3F0803AF74

So against that backdrop we have to understand that Africans are very diverse and Sudan is no exception:

People from Darfur:




https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Darfur

Kordofan people (Nuba):




https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Nuba_people

Beja People:


Dinka People:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/sudanese-man-from-dinka-tribe-shows-his-orange-hair-news-photo/929396076


Nuba female:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rietje/3082903720/in/photostream/

---

Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Calm down.
My vision ain't what it used to be
But I'm far far from blind, thank you.
What's circled in red?
Are you sure Punt's there?

Sahure's reign's Punt merchandise list
isn't even on the side shown. It's on
the other side.

What's encircled doesn't name any countries.
It's about 5 of Sneferu's building projects.


Don't get hung up on thowsticks.
Don't expect writing uniformity over 3000 yrs of history.



The Khasekhemwy stele definitely has Ta Seti.
Royal Annals Stone Sneferu has either Ta Seti
or Iwnt. Right now I favor Iwnt. <<BZTK! wrong>>
Whatever the case, it's followed by Nehes.


Again, the Royal Annals Stone mentions Pwenet
regarding some merchandise in Sahure's time.
And the signs spelling pwnt aren't exactly
the ones one might expect.

---

Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Another thread about an ancient people and culture that didn't exist: "Nubia".

Nubia is a modern geopolitical term used to reference areas in the South of Egypt and Northern Sudan. But there was no place called "Nubia" in the Nile Valley prior to AD time frames.

There also was no "A Group" or "C Group" either.

So, in that context, the only named entity we know of for certain in the predynastic for what came to be known as "Nubia" was Ta Seti. Ta Seti was an actual name for a population engaged in gold trading and other trading activities along the Nile. This culture basically is descended from ancient populations inhabiting the area between Wadi Kubanniya and Wadi Halfa on the Nile. This corresponds to roughly the area between Aswan and the Sudanese border. And it is between these two locations that you find the oldest settlement sites on the Nile.

quote:

---

In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers.

---

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/wadi/hd_wadi.htm

Note that the use of "Egypt", "Sudan" or "Nubia" in reference to any of these cultures is purely for modern geographical reference and has absolutely nothing to do with the ancient people or culture. All of the earliest sites of human activity along the Nile prior to the Dynastic era are in the South along the Nile between Upper Egypt and Sudan. So in that context, "Ta Seti" is simply the earliest known proto-state that arose from this area of human habitation going back tens of thousands of years to a time when that part of the Nile was a refuge for human settlement. Over time the Saharan wet phase began again and other populations moved to the Sahara and as the Sahara dried up humans shifted back to this area of the Upper Nile. And that is where the "A-Group" culture is labeled. But there was no "A-Group" because it implies A signifies the first in a sequence as in the first letter of the alphabet, but that is totally misleading and erroneous. History in that region of the Nile was many thousands of years older than that and so later cultures in the region cannot be the "first" in any sequence of culture or evolution.

As time went on this area dried up and the people moved north, along with other groups previously in other areas of the Nile and Sahara. And from that came the origins of the dynastic culture.

Unfortunately whenever you read the history of the Nile, the terms "Nubia", "Egypt" and "Sudan" are constantly used which only serves to muddy the water and cause confusion. There were no such countries, state borders or cultures along the NIle in 20,000 BC. People moved freely as the seasons and environments changed. That nomadic lifestyle and semi-nomadic lifestyle was the predominant lifestyle for most of human history and why using modern fixed borders as labels makes absolutely no sense.

quote:

---

The African origins of Egyptian civilisation lie in an important cultural horizon, the ‘primary pastoral community’, which emerged in both the Egyptian and Sudanese parts of the Nile Valley in the fifth millennium BC. A re-examination of the chronology, assisted by new AMS determinations from Neolithic sites in Middle Egypt, has charted the detailed development of these new kinds of society. The resulting picture challenges recent studies that emphasise climate change and environmental stress as drivers of cultural adaptation in north-east Africa. It also emphasises the crucial role of funerary practices and body decoration.

---

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cultural-convergence-in-the-neolithic-of-the-nile-valley-a-prehistoric-perspective-on-egypts-place-in-africa/198005B5D23B6 44951E17B3F0803AF74

So against that backdrop we have to understand that Africans are very diverse and Sudan is no exception:

---

Thank you for the input, Doug.

So in your mind does the Ta-Seti group referred to as "Nubia" correspond with the Kushites? Kind of like a branching off of culture down the Nile from the South as it mixed/interacted with other African ethnic cultures.

It's all the same at the end of the day.

So I agree, that the amount of terms utilized in Egyptology, in regard to the groups that populated the Nile Valley that creates a lot of confusion to go along with the assumptions, about purposed "differences". Despite them being virtually the same, as per science. But of course the underlying methods and ideology of Eurocentric basis or ignorance aims to divide or separate Kemet from its obvious roots, further South is always present.

That's the point of the thread though, to ultimately dispel the notion all together.

---

Thanks. I believe the main problem is that European anthropology on Africa tries to promote all Africans as falling into one "bucket" or type (or even worse "racial category") based on physical features. When the reality is that Africans are the most physically diverse populations on the planet. So there are many types of features found on Africans.

So I just posted some examples of folks from farther north in Sudan who also look like the older portraits from the tombs of KMT. I don't think those types of populations were exclusively in the far South. In terms of European anthropology they would be classified as "Negroid" and thus separate from East Africans, Saharan Africans and Beja type populations they would call "Caucasoid". It is all a mess based on labels.

And of course I am only going by what I could quickly gather off the net. There is a lot more diversity among those people than that. Also, I avoid sites that I am not familiar with as those images don't stay online long....

South Sudan(after the split) women:

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/internet-obsessed-south-sudanese-beauties-210627114.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9zZWFyY2g_cT1zdWRhbmVzZSt3b21lbiZ0Ym09a XNjaCZzb3VyY2U9aXUmaWN0eD0xJmZpcj00cUl0akRnalE3MjFzTSUyNTJDVkphZE1vMXdQSmg1VE0lMjUyQ18mdmV0PTEmdXNnPUFJNF8ta1JsMG9iOFE5am9TV2R3VldkN3ItTG16bC1INEEmc2E9WCZ2ZWQ9MmFoVUtFd2lYOVpUeWtha nJBaFVva25JRUhXdGRBZVFROVFFd0Nub0VDQW9RUWcmYml3PTE5MjAmYmloPTEwMTc&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJxsYUz_gb7KS6-agRxAOZKws8Iukbw4usgkdQdd6nc2B1qxXbgcL5Une0JHroOhrjcEPf-VUgNHYinxHhMVMOhkauJ Ek1MREw2Cvb2a_v5wgdX20KRQSkG9A9S7uwVmBYP2VOMS8cUgD2OkKg9Gl41zI0MyVyhFh5_aRkVdq44v



https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Women_of_South_Sudan

Posts: 8896 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Another thread about an ancient people and culture that didn't exist: "Nubia".

Nubia is a modern geopolitical term used to reference areas in the South of Egypt and Northern Sudan. But there was no place called "Nubia" in the Nile Valley prior to AD time frames.

There also was no "A Group" or "C Group" either.

So, in that context, the only named entity we know of for certain in the predynastic for what came to be known as "Nubia" was Ta Seti. Ta Seti was an actual name for a population engaged in gold trading and other trading activities along the Nile. This culture basically is descended from ancient populations inhabiting the area between Wadi Kubanniya and Wadi Halfa on the Nile. This corresponds to roughly the area between Aswan and the Sudanese border. And it is between these two locations that you find the oldest settlement sites on the Nile.

quote:

---

In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers.

---

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/wadi/hd_wadi.htm

Note that the use of "Egypt", "Sudan" or "Nubia" in reference to any of these cultures is purely for modern geographical reference and has absolutely nothing to do with the ancient people or culture. All of the earliest sites of human activity along the Nile prior to the Dynastic era are in the South along the Nile between Upper Egypt and Sudan. So in that context, "Ta Seti" is simply the earliest known proto-state that arose from this area of human habitation going back tens of thousands of years to a time when that part of the Nile was a refuge for human settlement. Over time the Saharan wet phase began again and other populations moved to the Sahara and as the Sahara dried up humans shifted back to this area of the Upper Nile. And that is where the "A-Group" culture is labeled. But there was no "A-Group" because it implies A signifies the first in a sequence as in the first letter of the alphabet, but that is totally misleading and erroneous. History in that region of the Nile was many thousands of years older than that and so later cultures in the region cannot be the "first" in any sequence of culture or evolution.

As time went on this area dried up and the people moved north, along with other groups previously in other areas of the Nile and Sahara. And from that came the origins of the dynastic culture.

Unfortunately whenever you read the history of the Nile, the terms "Nubia", "Egypt" and "Sudan" are constantly used which only serves to muddy the water and cause confusion. There were no such countries, state borders or cultures along the NIle in 20,000 BC. People moved freely as the seasons and environments changed. That nomadic lifestyle and semi-nomadic lifestyle was the predominant lifestyle for most of human history and why using modern fixed borders as labels makes absolutely no sense.

quote:

---

The African origins of Egyptian civilisation lie in an important cultural horizon, the ‘primary pastoral community’, which emerged in both the Egyptian and Sudanese parts of the Nile Valley in the fifth millennium BC. A re-examination of the chronology, assisted by new AMS determinations from Neolithic sites in Middle Egypt, has charted the detailed development of these new kinds of society. The resulting picture challenges recent studies that emphasise climate change and environmental stress as drivers of cultural adaptation in north-east Africa. It also emphasises the crucial role of funerary practices and body decoration.

---

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cultural-convergence-in-the-neolithic-of-the-nile-valley-a-prehistoric-perspective-on-egypts-place-in-africa/198005B5D23B6 44951E17B3F0803AF74

So against that backdrop we have to understand that Africans are very diverse and Sudan is no exception:

---

Thank you for the input, Doug.

So in your mind does the Ta-Seti group referred to as "Nubia" correspond with the Kushites? Kind of like a branching off of culture down the Nile from the South as it mixed/interacted with other African ethnic cultures.

It's all the same at the end of the day.

So I agree, that the amount of terms utilized in Egyptology, in regard to the groups that populated the Nile Valley that creates a lot of confusion to go along with the assumptions, about purposed "differences". Despite them being virtually the same, as per science. But of course the underlying methods and ideology of Eurocentric basis or ignorance aims to divide or separate Kemet from its obvious roots, further South is always present.

That's the point of the thread though, to ultimately dispel the notion all together.

---

Thanks. I believe the main problem is that European anthropology on Africa tries to promote all Africans as falling into one "bucket" or type (or even worse "racial category") based on physical features. When the reality is that Africans are the most physically diverse populations on the planet. So there are many types of features found on Africans.

So I just posted some examples of folks from farther north in Sudan who also look like the older portraits from the tombs of KMT. I don't think those types of populations were exclusively in the far South. In terms of European anthropology they would be classified as "Negroid" and thus separate from East Africans, Saharan Africans and Beja type populations they would call "Caucasoid". It is all a mess based on labels.

And of course I am only going by what I could quickly gather off the net. There is a lot more diversity among those people than that. Also, I avoid sites that I am not familiar with as those images don't stay online long....

South Sudan(after the split) women:

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/internet-obsessed-south-sudanese-beauties-210627114.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9zZWFyY2g_cT1zdWRhbmVzZSt3b21lbiZ0Ym09a XNjaCZzb3VyY2U9aXUmaWN0eD0xJmZpcj00cUl0akRnalE3MjFzTSUyNTJDVkphZE1vMXdQSmg1VE0lMjUyQ18mdmV0PTEmdXNnPUFJNF8ta1JsMG9iOFE5am9TV2R3VldkN3ItTG16bC1INEEmc2E9WCZ2ZWQ9MmFoVUtFd2lYOVpUeWtha nJBaFVva25JRUhXdGRBZVFROVFFd0Nub0VDQW9RUWcmYml3PTE5MjAmYmloPTEwMTc&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJxsYUz_gb7KS6-agRxAOZKws8Iukbw4usgkdQdd6nc2B1qxXbgcL5Une0JHroOhrjcEPf-VUgNHYinxHhMVMOhkauJ Ek1MREw2Cvb2a_v5wgdX20KRQSkG9A9S7uwVmBYP2VOMS8cUgD2OkKg9Gl41zI0MyVyhFh5_aRkVdq44v



https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Women_of_South_Sudan

---

Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by One Third African:
The way I see it, these would best represent the population of Wawat ("Lower Nubia", or the C-Group as archaeologists know them) during dynastic times. Notice that, despite having darker skin, their features are not that different from their Egyptian neighbors.


And these would be the people of Kush, or "Upper Nubia". Note the Egyptianesque costumes.



I suspect the people you see depicted wearing animal-hide loincloths might represent pastoralist communities from further south in the Sudan. In which case, they wouldn't really be ethnic "Nubians" or Kushites.

---

Posts: 115 | From: north america | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by One Third African:

The way I see it, these would best represent the population of Wawat ("Lower Nubia", or the C-Group as archaeologists know them) during dynastic times. Notice that, despite having darker skin, their features are not that different from their Egyptian neighbors.


And these would be the people of Kush, or "Upper Nubia". Note the Egyptianesque costumes.



I suspect the people you see depicted wearing animal-hide loincloths might represent pastoralist communities from further south in the Sudan. In which case, they wouldn't really be ethnic "Nubians" or Kushites.

---

Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
The problem is we still don't know exactly which is who? For example Wawat was a country or region not a specific people. Amenemhet I of the 12th dynasty waged war against Wawat penetrated as far as the 3rd Cataract subduing peoples along the way which he listed in his annals as "Akherkin, Kas, Khesaa, Shat, and Shemyk". One can generalize all these peoples culturally as C-Group but obviously there were distinct ethne.

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Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^^ quote all the fancy DNA you want.. I still see black people acting like black people... and anyway, what about the MtDNA's

This dude reminds me of Franklin Ajaye from Car Wash,

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quote:

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The majority of NRY haplotypes in Soqotra belong to haplogroup J (85.7%)“

Population comparisons

Based on FST values, the mitochondrial genetic diversity of Soqotra is statistically different (P \ 0.01) from the comparative populations. An MDS plot of FST values shows that the Soqotra sample is clearly distinct from all sub-Saharan, North African, Middle East, and Indian populations (see Fig. 2). High differentiation of the East African groups such as the Sandawe, Hadza, Turu, Datog, and Burunge is shown on the left side of the graph. However, there is a general similarity of the remaining sub-Saharan African populations, particularly those from the Sahel band and the Chad Basin (with the exception of the Fulani nomads). Subsequently, there is a transitional zone formed by the populations from Ethiopia and the Nile Valley but also by some Yemeni groups, particularly the ones from the eastern parts of the country (Hadramawt). 

---

quote:

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To resume, our results clearly reject the scenario put forward so far of a strict correlation between the Arab expansion in historical times and the overall pattern of distribution of J1-related chromosomes. Similarly, the causal association between STR-defined haplotypes and ethnic groups appear without any robust support, making its use inadequate for forensic or genealogical purposes. Instead, J1 variation provided the genetic background to correlate climatic changes to human demographic and socio-cultural events scarcely documented in the archaeological record – the dispersal of hunter gatherers after the termination of glacial conditions in the late Pleistocene and the desertification-driven retreat of tribes of Saharan and Arabian foragers in the transition to a food-producing economy.

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Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
I mean the Beja are semi-nomadic. So that could explain some "differences" so that shouldn't be surprising at all. Since they are a group that can be found within the Horn and outside the Horn. Especially if they reside in the Port of Sudan as it's kind of a midway point (water).





Sudan, Eritrea, Egypt...etc

I mean you can see the diversity in native phenotypes (those living within the Port Sudan and outside it):








..............................








Not strange at all

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Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:

Maybe people's within and not directly under Kushite rule? Or as the other thread shares, separate smaller states or "tribes" that lived in the same area between cataract before Wawat and beyond it.

---

quote:

---

Another element to this is that the names applied in the annuals by Amenemhet I may not really be what the groups they captured called themselves, if they had a name one at all. Could just be interpretations of where they were found or related to what could be gained from communication. Through Kemetic interpreters.

---

quote:

---

Unless of course there wasn't any real barrier with language and meaning. Since they were already previously encountered groups.

---

That's the thing, these peoples were already having trade relations with Egypt before Egyptian incursion into their territory.

What's hilarious though messed up is that Egyptology is only now starting to undo the damage done by past 19th century racists when it comes to ancient Egyptian relations with Nubians. Like the translation of Nehesi to mean "negro", or kings like Sesostris I of the 12th dynasty forbade Kushites from passing north of Semna except for trade or 17th dynasty Ahmose who hung the body of an Antiu (Kushite ally) warrior on his boat prow was because of 'racial animus' to the "negro".

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Unless of course there wasn't any real barrier with language and meaning. Since they were already previously encountered groups.

---

That's the thing, these peoples were already having trade relations with Egypt before Egyptian incursion into their territory.

What's hilarious though messed up is that Egyptology is only now starting to undo the damage done by past 19th century racists when it comes to ancient Egyptian relations with Nubians. Like the translation of Nehesi to mean "negro", or kings like Sesostris I of the 12th dynasty forbade Kushites from passing north of Semna except for trade or 17th dynasty Ahmose who hung the body of an Antiu (Kushite ally) warrior on his boat prow was because of 'racial animus' to the "negro".

---

Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020  |  IP: Logged |