quote: tehooti baraka 8 days ago These are the real Libyans as mentioned in the Bible. They are from PHUT, the Son of Ham. They are brother / sister to the Ethiopian, the Ancient Egyptian and the Canaanites (blacks in Palestine)
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Kairaba Moussa Sukaï Kairaba Moussa Sukaï 3 days ago Well said brother, I’m tired of foreigners trying to tell us who we are… We are proud Africans just like our sister tribes the Ka’nuri, Fulani, Songhai, Tuareg, Sanhadja, Tebu, Soninke, Mandinka, Bambara… all of us share a common heritage and common ancestors.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Most of the people you speak about are in Europe or are based in Europe (mainly France maybe Italy). And are projecting their insecurities caused by aggression from the people who they live among; Anti-immigration/nationalists. It stems from a combination of a want to be appreciated and the need to fit in. "My ancestors were just as white as the people we want to fit in with, but we are our own people.""Don't associate us with the other immigrants, the Arabs and the blacks" [/QB]
Can you stop projecting ? Talking against any form of -ism that tries to claim our heritage and claim we're some kind of invaders is a reasonable and natural reaction don't you think ?
It has nothing to do with being accepted by whites, I actually also fought them since they often make fallacious claims about my ancestors here a small example of me against their narrative (since I don't have the time to go through all the posts) :
Literally all surrounding populations are making ridiculous claims about my people on a daily basis so it has nothing to do with anti-blackness or wanting to be "white".
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
My 'association' with aMazigh nationalists goes back to the late 1990s both online and in the flesh. I belonged to an AN 'forum' that soon private requiring real world contacts to join. It happened because physical violence was directed at AN's by other Maghrebi Arab and Berber factions. I quit when I began to see the anti-blackism online and the biological determinism offline. Dr Clyde Winters was then also online with one of the AN forums/groups.
European mommies and grands didn't affect one's aMazighity but an inner African ancestor marked one as not possibly aMazigh. Online there was vivid anti-blackism going as far as Hagan claiming the Big 3 Empires were the result of aMazigh people and culture. Thankfully the org overseeing the Timbuktu manuscript libraries canned her after peruing her aMazigh supremacy and prejudiced opinions of 'iGnawen'.
The alleged Beur who posts here has no hallmarks of an aMazigh nationalist militant. No displays of cultural peculiarities that I know of from my associations with aMazigh nationalists, Moroccans of native descent, or Toshabi Israelites of the now defunct Moroccan Jewish Organization or Toshabi/ /Megorashi individuals of various NY NJ OH and PA synagogues.
So I retain my doubts about our resident supposed Beur who apparently was raised outside of aMazigh culture if in fact really a native.
Blacks are the ANs favorite whipping boys. They feel safe doing it because after all blacks are at the social bottom worldwide so no one's going to ding them for it. But ANs also throw brickbats at Arabs and Berbers. Essentially they slide glance all three stocks which are a part of their genome: inner African, Arabian Peninsular, and north Mediterranean.
BTW I had Mzabi and native Libyan dormmates
(the Maurs were aloof, snobbish, and hateful but were on the losing end of a sitdown with an Adamawa Fulani of Hamidou bloodlines)
and since Pan-Africanism was just beginning to die then both African dance troupes, savannah/forest and Med coastal, performed together.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: no self esteem, and identity crisis suffering Northafrocentrics (or outright white/Europeans faking at being actual Maghrebi)
I just had a convo on Instagram with a Black Amazigh dude who lives in France. He told me the French were obsessed with his people and were intent on whitewashing them to make their colonial violence against Amazigh communities seem less racist (by erasing the perceived racial difference between French and Maghrebis). He also told me he has sent voice messages in Arabic to some online "Amazigh nationalists" and getting no response from them even though they opened his messages, as if they didn't actually understand Arabic despite claiming to be from North Africa.
Now, our resident Antalas has posted DNA test results showing his North African ancestry, so I don't think he is a White larper or anything. But he might want to check some of the people he's been fraternizing with online. It'd be hilarious if some of these "Amazigh nationalists" were actually White Europeans playing Berber for some weird reason. I mean, people give me shit for liking Black women and Black culture, but I'd never pretend to be Black myself.
Or maybe some of them are actually Arabized North Africans who think they're reconnecting with their ancestral heritage by playing Berber online? I really doubt most of these clowns are actually posting from those rural villages in the mountains of Morocco or Algeria where many Berber-speakers actually live.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Most of the people you speak about are in Europe or are based in Europe (mainly France maybe Italy). And are projecting their insecurities caused by aggression from the people who they live among; Anti-immigration/nationalists. It stems from a combination of a want to be appreciated and the need to fit in. "My ancestors were just as white as the people we want to fit in with, but we are our own people.""Don't associate us with the other immigrants, the Arabs and the blacks"
Can you stop projecting ? Talking against any form of -ism that tries to claim our heritage and claim we're some kind of invaders is a reasonable and natural reaction don't you think ?
It has nothing to do with being accepted by whites, I actually also fought them since they often make fallacious claims about my ancestors here a small example of me against their narrative (since I don't have the time to go through all the posts) :
Literally all surrounding populations are making ridiculous claims about my people on a daily basis so it has nothing to do with anti-blackness or wanting to be "white". [/QB]
...I don't live in france or italy... how could I be projecting. I never claimed Amazigh. I just made an observation. Certain people are only proud amazigh in the presence of Blacks (or too defend their heritage against blacks) and are quiet in public around Euros, the same Euros who target NA with aggression lumping you in together with East Arabs.
And you are anti-black. It is quite obvious. You literally attribute any semblance of undisputed "black" ancestry of interest to slavery. You don't even ask questions.Look at your knee jerk reaction to a garamantian thread... Really, no non anti-black person would react like this...Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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The Wangara (also known as Wakore, Wankori, Ouankri, Wangarawa, Dyula, Jula, Jakhanke, Jalonke) are a subgroup of the Soninke who later became assimilated (at varying degrees) merchant classes that specialized in both Trans Saharan and Secret Trade of Gold Dust. Their diaspora operated all throughout West Africa Sahel-Sudan.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ...I don't live in france or italy... how could I be projecting. I never claimed Amazigh. I just made an observation. Certain people are only proud amazigh in the presence of Blacks (or too defend their heritage against blacks) and are quiet in public around Euros, the same Euros who target NA with aggression lumping you in together with East Arabs.
And you are anti-black. It is quite obvious. You literally attribute any semblance of undisputed "black" ancestry of interest to slavery. You don't even ask questions.Look at your knee jerk reaction to a garamantian thread... Really, no non anti-black person would react like this... [/QB]
You project in the sense that afro-americans had a hard time with whites in America and developed lots of insecurities and complexes because of it.
And I honestly don't know what you're talking about since europeans actually complained about how north africans don't integrate and stick to their culture. You'll never see a north african who will "stay quiet" around euros ; You're maybe trying to project the behaviour of some of your minorities unto north africans like the latinos or asians who are known white worshippers. Why do you think they make all those documentaries about "islam" invading europe ? Like I told you trying to describe north africans as people who want to be accepted by whites couldn't be farther from the truth.
As for my supposedly "anti-blackness" I don't see how that post is supporting what you claim ?? The claim wasn't from me but from the source I posted and it makes sense historically ...the way I react isn't because of anti-blackness it's because these afrocentrists try to find anything that can back up their narrative. Maybe you're biased because you're a black american therefore quite fed up with the association of black and slavery yes ok I get it but that's not a reason for you to completely ignore that slavery played a big role in this region.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
There's more I can tell of my North African experience. And when I see any as appropriate i will report them here.
But as promised earlier, and inspired by Thereals' admission, here's the first installment on the nascent and growing movement of North Africa's blacks now confronting the anti-blackism that shapes their life experiences.
=-=-=-=-= Mobilizing against Anti-black Racism in MENA: A Reader Despite the recent growth of interest in anti-racism in MENA, scholarly and literary works on the plight of black people in the Arab region or the part they play in the region’s social dynamics remain sparse. The Arab Reform Initiative is putting together a series of papers to highlight activism and mobilization against anti-black racism in MENA. As part of this effort, we are also compiling this reading list to draw attention to key academic and literary works that have tackled anti-black racism in the region. If you would like to suggest additional reading material, send a link with a description to ari-communications(at)arab-reform.net.
The killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, USA, in May 2020 prompted a global surge of demonstrations in solidarity with the “Black Lives Matter” movement and has ushered in one of the most significant and wide-reaching anti-racism movements in recent history. While much of the world is slowly coming to terms with the painful racial histories that fuel present-day discrimination and tensions, the issue of racism in MENA and the region’s role in the slave trade have long been left either unacknowledged or explicitly denied. This denial reinforces entrenched systems of oppression, marginalization, and social exclusion with wider implications on the lives of MENA communities. Societies from Rabat to Sana’a are not as inclusive as they claim to be. Deeply ingrained racial prejudices continue to be a source of suffering and marginalization for diverse minorities, including black communities. Despite the recent growth of interest in anti-racism in MENA, scholarly and literary work on the subject remains sparse, and history books have either glossed over the plight of black people in the Arab region or ignored the part they play in the region’s social dynamics.
As part of an effort to promote more regional discussions on the issue and our commitment to fight discrimination in the region, the Arab Reform Initiative is putting together a series of papers (as part of our Bawadar series) on anti-Black racism in MENA in an attempt to raise awareness about anti-black racism in Arab countries and highlight the mobilization that is taking place by anti-racism activists in the region. As a part of this effort, we are also compiling this reader list to draw attention to key academic and artistic works (in English, French and Arabic), but also to bring and keep the issues of anti-black racism at the forefront of public debates and actions.
This list – although not exhaustive – presents works chronicling the history of Black communities in MENA, Afro-Arab experiences, and anti-Blackness in the region. We aim to regularly update it to highlight new authors and works. If you think there is a book or paper that needs to be added to this reader, please email us at the address provided above with a link to the paper or book and a few words as to why you think it should be added.
=-=-=-=
The list of academic, lierature, and anecdotal prints is @
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: There's more I can tell of my North African experience. And when I see any as appropriate i will report them here.
But as promised earlier here's the first installment on the nascent and growing movement of North Africa's blacks confronting the anti-blackism that shapes their life experiences.
=-=-=-=-=
Mobilizing against Anti-black Racism in MENA: A Reader
Despite the recent growth of interest in anti-racism in MENA, scholarly and literary works on the plight of black people in the Arab region or the part they play in the region’s social dynamics remain sparse. The Arab Reform Initiative is putting together a series of papers to highlight activism and mobilization against anti-black racism in MENA. As part of this effort, we are also compiling this reading list to draw attention to key academic and literary works that have tackled anti-black racism in the region. If you would like to suggest additional reading material, send a link with a description to ari-communications(at)arab-reform.net.
There is no racism against blacks in the Maghreb especially not black north africans. "Racism" in North Africa is against black migrants from SSA who constantly harass locals, illegaly occupy private properties like here for example (look at 0.38) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkPatsAAntU
But in general there are no problems with local blacks who are totally integrated and accepted and it's not rare to see them being married to berbers like here :
they can easily reach high position, here the ambassador of Morocco in senegal :
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Though this is still a work in progress I now continue with the 3rd installment from JEHAN DESANGES The Iconography of the Black in Ancient North Africa in THE IMAGE OF THE BLACK IN WESTERN ART vol.1 Houston: Menil Foundation Inc., 1976
What a decade the 1970s was re books on Africa breaking the black inferiority mold initiated by the founders of anthropology and ethnology who were all white European males living in the age of USA black slavery and its economics.
Are we then to assume that gold from western Africa came to the Punics by way of the Tassili-n-Ajjer, with the Garamantes, who then were caravaneers without camels, serving as a relay?(87) Here again we have no definite proof to support the statements frequently made by modern historians.
. . .
... we must keep in mind the agricultural riches of the Emporia, the soil of which Polybius describes as excellent,(92) and also the fact that the southern area of Tunisia and the Djeffara then were the home of flocks of ostriches,(93) the feathers being a marketable item,
348. Mosaic of the Gladiators (detail): ostrich hunt. From Zliten. Late I century a.d. Tripoli, Archaeological Museum.
of elephants hunted for their ivory,(94) of lions and panthers(95) whose skins were prized. In short, granted the probability that there was traffic by caravan between the Emporia and the African interior, with the Garamantes acting as intermediaries, there is no proof that this traffic was on a large scale,(96) nor especially that it involved gold.
In the better-known Roman period the Garamantes are mentioned with reference not to gold but to precious stones.(97) It is our opinion(98) that the expedition of Julius Maternus had as its purpose the capture of rhinoceroses for Domitian's festivals, and there is no indication that it was motivated by the thirst for gold. Furthermore the pre-Islamic tombs of the Sahara contain few gold articles.(99)
87 G. and C. Ch.-Picard, La vie quotidienne a (Carthage au temps d'Hannibal, HF siecle avant Jesus-Christ (Paris, 1958), p. 225.
92 Polybius 3. 23. 2. On the fertility of the coastal region near Tacape (Gabes), cf Pliny Naturalis Historia 16. 115 and 18. 188-89.
93 H. Camps-Fabrer, La disparition de raulruche en Afrique du Nord (Algiers, 1963), pp. 26 and 33. The ostrich disappeared from these regions in the second half of the nineteenth century.
94 Pliny Naturalis Historia 5.26 and 8. 32. The elephant disappeared from North Africa about the end of the first century a.d., perhaps under the Flavian emperors, except on the border of Roman Morocco, where the animal seems to have survived longer.
95 On the lion, cf. Gsell, HAA.N, vol. I, Les conditions du developpement historique, pp. iii12; the panther and the leopard were often called simply africanae, idem, HAA.N, vol. I, pp. 112-13. In the Roman era the wild beasts were sought for the circus games. In the third century a.d. the killing of a leopard was worth 500 denarii in Tunisia: cf A. Beschaouch, "La mosaique de chasse a I'amphilheatre decouverte a Smiral en Tunisic," CRAIBL (19661: 136
96 This is also the opinion of E.W. Bovill, The Golden Trade of the Moors, 2nd ed., rev. and with additional material by R. Hallett (London, 1968), pp. 22-23, and of Mauny, Tableau oeographique. p. 398. It is likelv that we will get fuller information from the digs underway at Bou Ngem under the direction of R. Rebuffat: cf R. Rebuffat, J. Deneauve. G. Hallier, "Bu Njem 1967." Libya Antiqua 3-4 (1966-67: esp. 94-9-).
97 Pliny Naturalis Historia 3. 34, points out that the only trade between the Ethiopiian Troglodytes and the coast dealt in the carbunculus, of which one variety was called Garamantic (Pliny Naturalis Historia 37. 92) or Carthaginian (Strabo 17. 3. 11 and 19); cf also Vibius Sequester in G. I. M., p. 147. There was also a traffic in similar stones between Carthage and the mountains of the Nasamones (cf. Pliny Naturalis Historia 36, 104), which shows on Peutinger's Table, segm. VIII, 2-3: this was an east-west trade. On the difficulty of identifying these stones, cf T. Monod and M. Dalloni, Mission scientifique du Fezzan. 1944-1945, vol. VI., Geologie et Prehistoire (Algiers, 1948) pp. 151-54.
98 Cf. our article cited supra, n. 58.
99 Gsell, HAA.N, vol. VI, Les royaumes indigenes: vie materielle. intellectuelle et morale (1927), p. 36; Mauny, BIFAN, 14. no. 2(1952): 552-53.
No one here talked about a black centred slave trade but even though they were rare many mediterranean countries had black slaves including north africa (again go read the quotes I posted) and garamantes had their own black slaves as pointed out by many different ancient sources.
Again the oldest source, Herodotus, on Garamantes :
quote:Otherwise, they are like other cattle, except that their hide is thicker and harder to the touch. [4] These Garamantes go in their four-horse chariots chasing the cave-dwelling Ethiopians: for the Ethiopian cave-dwellers are swifter of foot than any men of whom tales are brought to us. They live on snakes and lizards and such-like creeping things. Their speech is like no other in the world: it is like the squeaking of bats.
IV,183
quote: Troglodyte - Tribe of ETHIOPIANS who are hunted by the GARAMANTES in CHARIOTS. The Trogodytes eat reptiles, and their language is unique in sounding like the squeaking of bats. They are, however, the swiftest human beings of all those known to Herodotus (4.183.4). Some scholars have hesitantly connected them with the modern Toubou of southern Libya and northern Chad (cf. Smith 2005, 127). This region makes sense if they were neighbors of the Garamantes, as Herodotus implies (Desanges 1962, 139–40). In the Hellenistic and Roman eras, however, Trogodytes inhabited the DESERT region along the Red Sea coast in what is today southern Egypt and northern Sudan.
C. Baron, The Herodotus Encyclopedia, Volume I, Wiley Blackwell
Now in later periods, there are some evidence of a small scaled slave trade in this region :
quote:The evidence for the trans-Saharan slave trade in antiquity is scattered though suggestive. Archaeologists have uncovered an extraordinary civilization centered in the Fazzan, the Garamantian kingdom, which managed to ¯achieve a high level of material culture based on irrigated agriculture and trans-Saharan commerce. The Garamantians also served as middle-men in the slave trade.Already at the end of the first century, a Roman named Julius Maternus visited the king of the Garamantians, whom he accompanied on what seems to be a “hunting” raid against Ethiopians. The Garamantians consumed Roman commodities, which they had to pay fo with something. Slaves seem to be one obvious candidate to explain the balance in trade between the Mediterranean and the Fazzan. ¯ The chalcidicum at Leptis Magna has been proposed as a plausible slave market, one end point of the trans-Saharan land route which slaves would have trudged in their coffles. The ostraca at Bu Djem, a Roman fort south of Leptis along one of the major arteries leading to the coast, indeed show the presence of Garamantian traders and black slaves along this axis of the trans-Saharan trade.
K. Harper, Slavery in the late roman world AD 275-425, Cambridge, pp. 88
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
^
Yeah like the guy in the middle somebody's pulling stuff out a butt somebody's dishing us a croc of shiz
speaking of whom
*** About the post before yours: Look at this frightened crude Beur charging to comment on a post that isn't finished yet. SMH @ Eurocentric agenda adapted by this Northafrocentric desparately seeking to back pedal and apologize. What a big -not funny- joke. Thinks he's rebuffing me, deSanges wrote that nearly 50 years ago.
Desanges' methodology is an early example of a specialist authority in the discipline beginning to remove himself and the field from racist assumptions in print since the inheritors and promoters of 18-19th century slavery promoting inventors of hierarchical anthropology, ethnology, and history.
Such an attention seeker Beur tryinta git a bit of my glow. Tryinta make things like they were back when white dominance was forthright OK in academia on blacks and Africa.
It's always blacks are just only slaves and any blacks between coast and desert are there because they are imported slaves.
He cannot contribute anything about Garamante civ like the OP so he goes into his patented anti-blackism routine in effect derailing this thread's purpose.
=-=-=-=-=
@ Doug M
Unless you object I'll still post info on the movement of North African blacks against suffering any more anti-blackism from their fellow citizens.
I promised Garamante civ info and it's coming. Nothing new for vets like you but a recap seems apropos. Here's a peek of more to come:
Although artifacts like the mosaic showing Garamantes in gladiatorial games dates from the middle Roman era, the original Garamante capital Zinchecra was established in the 9th century BCE.
Being situated on high ground Zinchecra may have been built in response to aggressive behavior by Libyans to the north who had come within influence of the more militant Mediterranean settler allies of the Meshwesh.
Garama, the later capital at a time when Garamantes were themselves somewhat militant, has a founding date in the 4th century BCE.
Garama likely had a population of 10,000 and center city was an armory. The Garamante army controlled the routes to Lake Tschad and engaged skirmishes against neighbors to their east and northwest. Some have proposed their military activities included moves against Dhar Tichitt, far to the west in today's SE Mauritania, as well.
The Garamante network (~550 BCE to ~550 CE) had five main routes. I've included the two other inner African lanes in this schema chart.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ...I don't live in france or italy... how could I be projecting. I never claimed Amazigh. I just made an observation. Certain people are only proud amazigh in the presence of Blacks (or too defend their heritage against blacks) and are quiet in public around Euros, the same Euros who target NA with aggression lumping you in together with East Arabs.
And you are anti-black. It is quite obvious. You literally attribute any semblance of undisputed "black" ancestry of interest to slavery. You don't even ask questions.Look at your knee jerk reaction to a garamantian thread... Really, no non anti-black person would react like this... [/QB]
You project in the sense that afro-americans had a hard time with whites in America and developed lots of insecurities and complexes because of it.
And I honestly don't know what you're talking about since europeans actually complained about how north africans don't integrate and stick to their culture. You'll never see a north african who will "stay quiet" around euros ; You're maybe trying to project the behaviour of some of your minorities unto north africans like the latinos or asians who are known white worshippers. Why do you think they make all those documentaries about "islam" invading europe ? Like I told you trying to describe north africans as people who want to be accepted by whites couldn't be farther from the truth.
As for my supposedly "anti-blackness" I don't see how that post is supporting what you claim ?? The claim wasn't from me but from the source I posted and it makes sense historically ...the way I react isn't because of anti-blackness it's because these afrocentrists try to find anything that can back up their narrative. Maybe you're biased because you're a black american therefore quite fed up with the association of black and slavery yes ok I get it but that's not a reason for you to completely ignore that slavery played a big role in this region.
I'm first generation... Your statement about projection barely applies to me. And barely made sense if it did. And literally every NA I met in/from france or Italy I needed to pry the fact that they're north African out of them. And watch them take a sigh of relief when I express I know a lil about their culture... They leave that berber shit at the door in a room full of Euros.
People can't mention any saharan group without your wild appearance and an attempt to minimize Black African presence. Your behavior is well documented. It is clear as day you're anti-black. It's cool.. I don't have a problem with it. It'll allow people to know which level they can reason with you to if you just admitted it and move along. It allows us to understand how to you, even mentioning the Garamantes of all people is "afrocentrics stealing your culture"... lol.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I'm first generation... Your statement about projection barely applies to me. And barely made sense if it did. And literally every NA I met in/from france or Italy I needed to pry the fact that they're north African out of them. And watch them take a sigh of relief when I express I know a lil about their culture... They leave that berber shit at the door in a room full of Euros.
People can't mention any saharan group without your wild appearance and an attempt to minimize Black African presence. Your behavior is well documented. It is clear as day you're anti-black. It's cool.. I don't have a problem with it. It'll allow people to know which level they can reason with you to if you just admitted it and move along. It allows us to understand how to you, even mentioning the Garamantes of all people is "afrocentrics stealing your culture"... lol. [/QB]
So from where are you from ? Nigeria ? As for your comment on NA that's either made up or I really don't know what kind of idiots you have met but you can ask any west european what he thinks and you'll see. That's actually hilarious because it's actually the total opposite and that's why NAs are so hated they even make memes about it lol :
Your victim card won't work with me it reminds me of these jews who called me antisemite because I'm against zionism... anyway DougM is a well known hardcore afrocentrist the guy just posted a quote highlighting west african influence in the garamantian culture (trying again to propagate that panafrican ideology of muh we were all connected) it reminded me of that paper which explained how it ended up there and I posted it. Of course people like yourself don't really like it (after all you admitted you were afrocentrist) and since they don't have much to oppose they start with their ad hominem calling me "anti-black" + it doesn't even make sense since in this own thread I clearly wrote that there were aethiopians/black in the sahara.
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posted
Again,West Africa is a region and doesn't really describe a phenotype.
Elmaestro and DougM never claimed to be Afrocentric but a person of facts,if you ask who tries to instil of looking beyond these online publications and making appropriate inferences with info given.
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posted
Can someone do something about Antalas he is derailing threads with his anti blackness and trolling
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: There is no racism against blacks in the Maghreb especially not black north africans. "Racism" in North Africa is against black migrants from SSA who constantly harass locals, illegaly occupy private properties like here for example (look at 0.38) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkPatsAAntU
> Claims there is no racism against Black-identified people in the Maghreb. > Blames the victim when it comes to racism against Black immigrants from sub-Saharan countries.
Does this nitwit not realize he's not fooling anyone when he claims he and his ideological brethren aren't motivated by anti-Blackness? The above is practically a textbook example of "I'm not a racist, but..."
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: There is no racism against blacks in the Maghreb especially not black north africans. "Racism" in North Africa is against black migrants from SSA who constantly harass locals, illegaly occupy private properties like here for example (look at 0.38) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkPatsAAntU
> Claims there is no racism against Black-identified people in the Maghreb. > Blames the victim when it comes to racism against Black immigrants from sub-Saharan countries.
Does this nitwit not realize he's not fooling anyone when he claims he and his ideological brethren aren't motivated by anti-Blackness? The above is practically a textbook example of "I'm not a racist, but..."
How is that racism ? If a french tells me "we have enough of north africans because of the crimes they commit" I'd understand him since most crimes are done by NAs there. I already told you that in general there are no racism towards local blacks but simply migrants so clearly the problem isn't necessarily a question of skin color.
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I've seen people claim that the Garamantes were Amazigh-speakers of Maghrebi origin, but as your source points out, their pottery traditions do seem related to those of "sub-Saharan" West Africa. Of course, a culture can have both "Berber" and "sub-Saharan" roots, and I wouldn't be surprised if Saharan Amazigh peoples have had West African cultural (and possibly biological) influences for a long time.
As mentioned in the video, the sites associated with the Garamantes are in the area of modern South West Libya called the Fezzan. It is part of the Libyan Sahara and about 300 miles away away from the coastal regions. The Fezzan in Libya shares a border with Niger and Algeria.
quote: Germa , known in ancient times as Garama, is an archaeological site in Libya. It was the capital of the Garamantian Kingdom.
The Garamantes were a Berber people living in the Fezzan in the northeastern Sahara Desert. Garamantian power climaxed during the second and the third centuries AD, often in conflict with the Roman Empire to the north. Garama had a population of some four thousand and another six thousand living in villages within a 5 km radius.
The Garamantes often conducted raids across Rome's African frontier, the Limes Tripolitanus, and retreated to the safety of the desert. In 203 the Roman Emperor Septimius Severus launched a campaign deep into the Sahara, capturing Garama, but he abandoned it soon after.
quote: Archaeological ruins associated with the Garamantian kingdom include numerous tombs, forts, and cemeteries. The Garamantes constructed a network of tunnels, and shafts to mine the fossil water from under the limestone layer under the desert sand. The dating of these foggara is disputed, they appear between 200 BC to 200 AD but continued to be in use until at least the 7th century and perhaps later. The network of tunnels is known to Berbers as Foggaras. The network allowed agriculture to flourish, and used a system of slave labor to keep it maintained. Marta Mirazon Lahr conducted research on skeletons from Fezzan dating to the Roman era and found that the skeletons most closely matched Neolithic Sahelian samples, from Chad, Mali, and Niger. Lahr associates these remains with the Garamantes, and concludes that the Garamantes had connections with both the Sahel and northern Africa.
The overall point of the data in the video shows that the ancient pottery traditions of West Africa such as those in Mali which are upwards of 8,000 years old moved North into the Sahara during the last wet phase. These populations then became nomadic as the Sahara dried up and moved into other coastal areas and back Southwards.
It isn't clear what language they spoke and mostly all I have seen are references to Herodatus stating:
quote: Used four-horse chariots to hunt Ethiopian "hole-men" or troglodytes, who were very fast, ate snakes and lizards, and spoke a unique language that included bat-like squeak; shun all human contact; lived further inland behind the Nasamones in the land of wild beasts. The Garamantes "avoided all `men'" and lived without any means of defense (i.e.: nothing that Herodotos recognized as a "modern" army). Herodotos calls them an "exceedingly great nation" who farm in soil layed over earth salted from salt springs and have cows that walk backwards as they graze, due to forward curving horns.
Calling them "berbers" is probably stretching things a whole lot. But here is another reference to their culture and writing.
quote: 700 miles south from the Mediterranean coast, there, stretches a sub-beaten arid African desert, with temperatures that can rise up to 55 ºC in the summer, an average annual rainfall that is less than half an inch, and sometimes even it doesn’t see rain for years. One would never imagine that a lost 3,000-year-old-African civilization once existed in this part of the desert in southern Libya, a civilization that will help reshape the history of ancient Africa. This mysterious civilization of the ancient Saharan people is known as, the Garamantes.
If you tried to visualize the Garamantes, you would probably paint a mental picture of nomadic encampments, scattered villages and desert barbarians. However, the truth might surprise you when you know that the Garamantes built about three impressive cities, had a written language, pyramid tombs, armies of chariots and cavalry and ruled an empire of 70,000 square miles in the middle of the world’s largest desert. What’s even more surprising is that amidst the shortage of rain in this desert, they managed to successfully cultivate their land and create elaborate water and irrigation systems that one might think was too advanced and ahead of their time considering the limited equipment that they possessed.
....
In the 1960s, archaeologists discovered parts of the capital of Garamantes, which is located in the present day Germa (about 150 km west of Sabha), and they named it Garama. The ruins found included forts, numerous tombs and cemeteries. Archaeological excavation revealed that the Garamantes had eight major towns and about twenty other settlements. The capital, Garama had a population of about 4,000 and about 6,000 were living in surrounding villages. Houses were either stone-built for the elites of the society, or they were mud brick-built for the common people. The mud-brick buildings which served as houses or workshops had two or three rooms, a hearth and a well. Other grand buildings were monumental, one of which was a temple with a columned porch and a broad set of steps at its entrance. Another one had a narrow entrance lined by two pilasters with a colonnaded courtyard. A Roman-style bath-house probably existed which is indicated by the finding of fragments of hydraulic cement, marble, hypocaust tile, and veneer. The plan and structure of the buildings, the elaborately moulded and painted mud-brick houses and the stone-footed buildings reveal that the Garamantes was ruled by a flourishing elite.
....
The many rocks and ruins found have shown evidence that the Garamantes had their own spoken and written language. The ancient Garamante script is derived from pure Libyan Abjad script, which has a lot in common with the Egyptian hieratic script.
Basically the Garamantes are evidence of a widespread trading network across the Sahara that likely goes back to the evolution of the populations in the Sahara during the last wet phase as the desert started to expand. This is supported by the pottery evidence as presented in this video. And their language likely related to proto-berber languages that evolved in the Sahara along with the scripts.
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posted
Unfortunately, there are xenophobia and racism in North Africa, especially against Sub-Saharan Africans. You can't sugarcoat that. However, things are a bit complicated when you look at the bigger picture.
For instance, the local black North Africans or black Berbers are integrated citizens with tribal affiliation. They may experience prejudice or the lack of respect. Nevertheless, they are not confronted with the hostility and discrimination West -African immigrants have to endure. Since the black Berbers are not foreigners, speak the local language, and share the common culture with non-black North Africans they're definitely treated way better than the black immigrants. That's why you can sometimes see black Berber males with pale, white-looking Berber wives. In contrast, Nigerian or Ghanaian men would have a hard time dating a North African female. The situation is similar in the Arabian Peninsula. African immigrants are often treated badly whereas the local Afro-Arab citizens are not.
Besides, Sub-Saharan African immigrants were hunted down if not lynched during the Arab Spring in Libya not only because of mere xenophobia or racism but also because many African immigrants were pro-Gaddafi. And some of them were recruited as mercenaries for the Gaddafi Army. Hence, after the rebels took over Libya they took revenge on the black immigrants since they were considered to be Gaddafi fans. In contrast, the local black Libyan people had nothing to fear. At least that's what some Africans who temporarily resided there told me. Anyway, just because some immigrants behave badly or commit crimes that don't excuse racism and discrimination against African immigrants.
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posted
"Clans of Tu, Tebu or Tibu people, nowadays the dominant population of Fazzan and Tibesti.... They are seemingly of considerable antiquity, the Garamantes of Herodotus and the Romans, the Tedamansii of Claudius Ptolemeaus" - Sir Harry Hamilton Johnston, 1921
"The Kufra oasis did not always belong to the Arabs. From time immemorial it was the land of the Tebu who owned all the places in the desert for ages" - Tebu Chief Abdel Malik, 1936
"We the Tebu are the original inhabitants of this desert" - Tebu Chief Abdel Malik, 1936
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Your victim card won't work with me it reminds me of these jews who called me antisemite because I'm against zionism... anyway DougM is a well known hardcore afrocentrist the guy just posted a quote highlighting west african influence in the garamantian culture (trying again to propagate that panafrican ideology of muh we were all connected) i
So showing that there was a connection between West Africa and the Garamantes, by scholars who actually study the material culture is Afro-Centrism and Pan-Africanism
I mean even if the Garamantes were'nt connected to West Africa, the Ghana/Walata culture and host of other West African/Saharan Cultures were, I mean you're not even making sense, historically speaking. Why does a connection between West Africa and the Garamantes bother you, if you only care about Coastal North Africa?
quote:I clearly wrote that there were aethiopians/black in the sahara.
Yet these people were too stupid to have relations with West Africans outside of Slavery?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Your victim card won't work with me it reminds me of these jews who called me antisemite because I'm against zionism... anyway DougM is a well known hardcore afrocentrist the guy just posted a quote highlighting west african influence in the garamantian culture (trying again to propagate that panafrican ideology of muh we were all connected) i
So showing that there was a connection between West Africa and the Garamantes, by scholars who actually study the material culture is Afro-Centrism and Pan-Africanism
I mean even if the Garamantes were'nt connected to West Africa, the Ghana/Walata culture and host of other West African/Saharan Cultures were, I mean you're not even making sense, historically speaking. Why does a connection between West Africa and the Garamantes bother you, if you only care about Coastal North Africa?
quote:I clearly wrote that there were aethiopians/black in the sahara.
Yet these people were too stupid to have relations with West Africans outside of Slavery?
??? what are you talking about ? I wouldn't care much if it was just that but i know DougM and we all know why he brings this out of nowhere. Stop pretending all people here are innocent without agenda and I posted an article as to why such influences are found there. Not my fault if Garamantes were slave traders that's simply factual stop thinking I always associate blackness with slavery that's simply a strawman.
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: "Clans of Tu, Tebu or Tibu people, nowadays the dominant population of Fazzan and Tibesti.... They are seemingly of considerable antiquity, the Garamantes of Herodotus and the Romans, the Tedamansii of Claudius Ptolemeaus" - Sir Harry Hamilton Johnston, 1921
"The Kufra oasis did not always belong to the Arabs. From time immemorial it was the land of the Tebu who owned all the places in the desert for ages" - Tebu Chief Abdel Malik, 1936
"We the Tebu are the original inhabitants of this desert" - Tebu Chief Abdel Malik, 1936
Beautiful people, they actually have lots of north african ancestry here one result :
How long must ES blacks be taunted with West- Africans-are-slaves from a black-hating Beur? I mean every post by him includes 'blacks/W Afrs are just our slaves'.
Outside of supremacist's sites where is such effrontery allowed?
I guess the empowered blacks here really love being called slaves.
And add to the fact that this dude:
"Antalas/Nassbean"
has ALREADY BEEN BANNED on this site before, for ANTI-BLACK BULL$HIT!
WHY is he even allowed to be here?
What is the point of banning someone, if they can just create a new account??????
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: So from where are you from ? Nigeria ? As for your comment on NA that's either made up or I really don't know what kind of idiots you have met but you can ask any west european what he thinks and you'll see. That's actually hilarious because it's actually the total opposite and that's why NAs are so hated they even make memes about it lol :
Your victim card won't work with me it reminds me of these jews who called me antisemite because I'm against zionism... anyway DougM is a well known hardcore afrocentrist the guy just posted a quote highlighting west african influence in the garamantian culture (trying again to propagate that panafrican ideology of muh we were all connected) it reminded me of that paper which explained how it ended up there and I posted it. Of course people like yourself don't really like it (after all you admitted you were afrocentrist) and since they don't have much to oppose they start with their ad hominem calling me "anti-black" + it doesn't even make sense since in this own thread I clearly wrote that there were aethiopians/black in the sahara. [/QB]
You're the only victim here buddy. Like I said, just admit you're antiblack, Noone's feelings will be hurt... but! a promising thread like this won't be derailed in the future for we would all know how to handle a person like you.
btw.. I don't understand what most of what your post is trying to insinuate.
And I'm not Nigerian. Not that it matters anyways... I'll try to catch what I'm saying on video to show you I'm not capping. I'm around North Africans (outside of the states) all the time. I couldn't possibly make this up (How do you think I know how you guys are viewed by Euros, Your kin literally tells me these things lol)
Trolling aside..
FROM NOW ON Racebaiting Flamebaiting and Further off-topic posts will be removed and the users should be reported //MOD
To close in on some key points... - The Garamantes being slave traders has no relevance to their Biological history. Slaving wasn't a practice held by non-Black Africans. Black Africans captured and even sold other Black Africans. Slaving in Africa wasn't novel or unique to the Amazigh. - Key cultural connections between populations of the Sahara and west Africa have been well established academically. The Garamantes have Architectural practices being linked to present day Burkino Faso and Mali and possibly derived from Mende practices (Tichitt). - Biological affinities primarily link the Garamantes to neolithic populations of west Africa, Obviously of Chad Mali and Niger, then to North Eastern populations and eventually (possibly due to minor Iron age or movements south.) Coastal North Africans with the absence of modern SSA samples.
Any further debate points going against the established cultural connections and Biological Affinities between Garamantes and WA OR tries to relegate these to being related to slavery somehow without data that overall suggests so will be viewed as flamebait. ///MODPosts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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To close in on some key points... - The Garamantes being slave traders has no relevance to their Biological history. Slaving wasn't a practice held by non-Black Africans. Black Africans captured and even sold other Black Africans. Slaving in Africa wasn't novel or unique to the Amazigh.
It does since they mixed with them as the forensic datas show. As for the rest no one here ever denied that I don't see why you bring such obvious facts.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: - Key cultural connections between populations of the Sahara and west Africa have been well established academically. The Garamantes have Architectural practices being linked to present day Burkino Faso and Mali and possibly derived from Mende practices (Tichitt). - Biological affinities primarily link the Garamantes to neolithic populations of west Africa, Obviously of Chad Mali and Niger, then to North Eastern populations and eventually (possibly due to minor Iron age or movements south.) Coastal North Africans with the absence of modern SSA samples.
Are you implying that such connections couldn't have been brought by their west african slaves ? (be careful I'm not necessarily implying that all came from them) I mean we have testimonies talking about such slave trade throughout many centuries so I can't even imagine the number of slaves they imported there especially that it seems most of them were kept there.
Do you have any paper on the biological affinities of garamantes ? I could only find what I posted but anyway here again it seems you purposely deny any possibility of slaves impacting them (after centuries of slavery if not millenias I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being almost fully west african ; the same way many modern tuaregs are predominantely west african and look no different from west africans).
(Also I want to add that your assumption about me being black doesn't make sense since I'm technically 17-20% "black")
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
In Africa itself the black slaves were often classed with the pre-Saharan populations, as witness a metrical inscription at Hadrumetum.(108) Psychoanalysts might be interested in studying this inscription, of which we give a rough translation: (109) The shit of the Garamantes has spread across our sky. And the black slave rejoices in his pitch-black body. If the voice coming out of his mouth did not sound human. The look of him would scare men like a horrid ghost. May dread Tartarus, O Hadrumetum, snatch away your monster for himself: Such is the guard the house of Pluto should have.(110)
... ...
One may also question the reality of the Negroid traits which some have thought they discerned in certain personifications of Africa.(145) But at least it may be permissible to detect these Negroid features in one or the other portrait of Juba II (146) or in the faces of some few "Garamantes" in the Zliten mosaic.(147)
It is time to come to a firm conclusion. The presence of blacks in ancient Africa is irrefutably proven by literary and epigraphic evidence. Their number was certainly not largely increased by an influx across the Sahara, because no important commercial traffic justified such an influx. There was no considerable movement of blacks from North Africa into the Roman world, and the evidence of their presence there is reduced to a small number of indisputable iconographic records. To the ancient world the black was essentially a Nilotic; but the Maur and the Garamanti (148) were often looked upon and thought of as being half black.
108 Anthologia Latina. cd. A. Riese and F. Bucheler (Leipzig, 1894), vol. I, 183. PP. 155-56.
109 On the connection sometimes made between the black and excrement, cf J.-P. Cebe, La caricature et la parodie dans le monde romain antique, des origines de Juvenal (Paris, 1966). p. 349 and n. 7; p. 353 and n. II (Pygmies); p. 354 and nn. 5 and 6 (full-size Negroes).
110 Faex Garamantarum nostrum processit ad axem Et piceo gaudet corpore verna niger. Quem nisi vox hominem labris emissa sonaret, Terreret visu horrida larva viros. Dira, Hadrumeta, tuum rapiant sibi Tartara monstrum; Custodem hunc Ditis debet habere domus.
145 Constantine, Musee Gustave Mercier; from Thibilis (Announa). Beardsley, The Negro, nos. 280, 281, and 282, p. 130. In fact, the literary testimony of Sidonius Apollinaris Carmina 5. 53-54, attributing black cheeks to Africa, is more convincing than the examples drawn by Beardsley from statuary and numismatics. The nigritude of the Africa of Berrouaghia and of that of Announa (after cleaning) seems entirely doubtful; cf V. Waille, "Note sur I'elephant, symbole de l'Afrique a propos d'un bronze recemment decouvert a Berrouaghia (Algerie)," R.A, 17, 3rd ser. (1891): 380-84; A. Berthier, "Una statuette de la deesse Afrique," Hommages a Albert Grenier, Collection Latomus, vol. LVIII, i (Brussels, 1962), pp. 286-87 and figs. 1 and 2. Granted that the Africa represented on coins (cf. Muller, Numismatique de l'ancienne Afrique, vol. Ill, Les monnaies de la Numidie et de la Mauretanie [1862], p. 43, no. 58; p. 100, no. 15; p. 107, no. I] has her hair done "in parallel, tiered corkscrews" --a style traditional in Libyco-Berbcr North Africa—-she still does not look Negroid.
146 Cherchell, Musee Archeologique, 21. Cf E. Boucher-Colozier, "Quelques marbres de Cherchel au Musee du Louvre," Libyca: Arch. Epigr. i (1953): 26 and fig. 2.
147 Cf especially the Garamantc in pl. 156, Aurigemma, I Mosaici, coming in between a bear and a bull.
148 Mauros in Greek came to mean "Ethiopian" or even "black": cf W. den Boer, "The native Country of Lusius Quietus," Mnemosyne, i, 4th ser. (1948): 331-32; idem, "Lusius Quietus, an Ethiopian," Mnemosyne 3 (1950): 263-65 (but in our opinion ]Lusius Quietus the Moor was an Ethiopian from Cerne, i.e., probably from Mogador); compare also F. M. Snowden, Jr., Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco- Roman Experience (Cambridge, Mass., 1970), pp. 11-12 (an excellent monograph which came out after the present essay was already in the hands of the editors). With regard to the habit of considering the Garamante as more or less the same as the Ethiopian, it is particularly significant that Luxorius, an African poet at the court of the Vandal kings in the early sixth century, in one of his poems (M. Rosenblum, Luxorius: A Latin Poet among the Vandals, Records of Civilization Sources and Studies, no. LXII [New York and London, 1961], Poem 43, p. 136) contrasts the pretty girl from Pontus, symbolizing the Nordic and fitting the feminine ideal of the Vandals, with an ugly (foeda)Garamante, the southern type farthest from the Nordic. It seems that this was the poet's way of continuing the old tradition of the Greek Janiform vases, and renewing the contrast established by the earliest Greek ethnography between Thracians and Scythians on one side and Ethiopians on the other.
posted
The Garamantes were EgyptoNubians affliated they were not white berbers from the north but they may have had white berbers for slaves
Leukoaethiopes, “white black people"
quote: Tuareg and Fulani are sometimes called “white” or sometimes “red” in the Arab and African texts respectively, while otherwise called blacks or Sudani). In the region of the modern country of Mauretania and Senegal, the Songhai traders who were mixed with Mande-speakers and called Soninke or Aswanek became known as Imraguen.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
Not sure why this thread is being sullied with so much nonsense. The Garamantes were a North African population in the Sahara. The Sahara has always been populated by black Africans and there has never been a time when it wasn't. This video shows clearly that there have always been trade networks across the Sahara going back many thousands of years to the wet phase and probably even before that. The oldest pottery in Africa and "North Africa" is in the southern Sahara originating from around modern Mali. And along with this goes all the evolutionary practices towards agriculture and animal husbandry within the once wet Shara far from the coasts. So this is not a thread to debate nonsense topics like what is an ancient Berber and so forth. This is about the facts of archaeology in the Sahara showing the connections within and across the Sahara that mean there was never a time when Africans were "cut off" from moving North.
Also, keep in mind that the definitions of terms like North Africa, Libya and so forth have varied over time and there is no single fixed definition.
Case in point there have been various "Libyan" kingdoms covering portions of what is now modern Libya through the last 2000 years. And much of that was the result of foreign invasions.
But this isn't about "Libya" from that context as the populations prior to the 1st century AD did not identify with such modern terms as "Africa", "Libya" or "Berber". Those are relatively modern concepts that do not extend back into prehistory.
The problem is that when these scholars talk about this history they arbitrarily use terms that don't even make sense. For example, the oldest pottery going back at least 12,000 years is found in Mali. And then in conjunction with that there are various sites in the Southern and Central Sahara during the last wet phase sharing characteristics with the pottery of Mali. And then you have evidence for the cooking of plants in Southern Libya 10,000 years ago. All this evidence is showing the clear case that the interior of Africa as the origin of many of these innovations and not the coasts.
quote: Routine pottery analyses (optical microscopy, X-ray powder diffraction, X-ray fluorescence) and digital image processing of polarised light photomicrographs were used to answer questions on the provenance and technology of pottery assemblages belonging to Late Acacus hunter–gatherers (ca. 10,200–8000 cal BP) and Pastoral herders (ca. 8300–4650 cal BP) from Takarkori rock shelter (SW Libya, central Sahara). This integrated analytical approach on potsherds was combined with the characterisation of local clayey sediments to identify different local and proximal sources for coarse and fine sediments exploited for pottery production. Two main fabric groups (i.e. Q* and QF*) were identified among the analysed potsherds, where the sediments from the Takarkori area are compatible with the quartz-dominated fabrics (Q*). The local fabric QVe shows evidence of dung addition. Pottery with plutonic non-plastic inclusions (QF*) points to provenance from the southern edges of the Tassili n’Ajjer and is more frequent in Late Acacus and Early Pastoral layers. New insights into pottery production and circulation between Early Holocene Saharan hunter–gatherers and Pastoral communities, as well as into modes of occupation of Takarkori rock shelter, are provided.
This is the same area as the later Garamante civilization.
quote: The invention of thermally resistant ceramic cooking vessels around 15,000 years ago was a major advance in human diet and nutrition1–3, opening up new food groups and preparation techniques. Previous investigations of lipid biomarkers contained in food residues have routinely demonstrated the importance of prehistoric cooking pots for the processing of animal products across the world4. Remarkably, however, direct evidence for plant processing in prehistoric pottery has not been forthcoming, despite the potential to cook otherwise unpalatable or even toxic plants2,5. In North Africa, archaeobotanical evidence of charred and desiccated plant organs denotes that Early Holocene hunter-gatherers routinely exploited a wide range of plant resources6. Here, we reveal the earliest direct evidence for plant processing in pottery globally, from the sites of Takarkori and Uan Afuda in the Libyan Sahara, dated to 8200–6400 bc. Characteristic carbon number distributions and δ13C values for plant wax-derived n-alkanes and alkanoic acids indicate sustained and systematic processing of C3/C4 grasses and aquatic plants, gathered from the savannahs and lakes in the Early to Middle Holocene green Sahara.
quote: New excavations in ravines at Ounjougou in Mali have brought to light a lithic and ceramic assemblage that dates from before 9400 cal BC. The authors show that this first use of pottery coincides with a warm wet period in the Sahara. As in East Asia, where very early ceramics are also known, the pottery and small bifacial arrowheads were the components of a new subsistence strategy exploiting an ecology associated with abundant wild grasses. In Africa, however, the seeds were probably boiled (then as now) rather than made into bread.
To close in on some key points... - The Garamantes being slave traders has no relevance to their Biological history. Slaving wasn't a practice held by non-Black Africans. Black Africans captured and even sold other Black Africans. Slaving in Africa wasn't novel or unique to the Amazigh.
It does since they mixed with them as the forensic datas show. As for the rest no one here ever denied that I don't see why you bring such obvious facts.
I worded that poorly. I speak in context of how West-African/Saharan or Non-African/EEF they were. "slaving wasn't a practice held only by non-Black Africans." - is what I meant to communicate. With that fact in the back of your mind, where do you draw the line in trying to disentangle which aspects came from slavery or not? The issue rears itself in your following inquiry. [..]
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: - Key cultural connections between populations of the Sahara and west Africa have been well established academically. The Garamantes have Architectural practices being linked to present day Burkino Faso and Mali and possibly derived from Mende practices (Tichitt). - Biological affinities primarily link the Garamantes to neolithic populations of west Africa, Obviously of Chad Mali and Niger, then to North Eastern populations and eventually (possibly due to minor Iron age or movements south.) Coastal North Africans with the absence of modern SSA samples.
Are you implying that such connections couldn't have been brought by their west african slaves ? (be careful I'm not necessarily implying that all came from them) I mean we have testimonies talking about such slave trade throughout many centuries so I can't even imagine the number of slaves they imported there especially that it seems most of them were kept there.
On the contrary, why would I imply their architecture at the height of the urbanization was brought by slaves... Why can't you see how backwards that way of thinking is? It seems that by default we should assume they had no culture because the culture that we can identify relates to those of contemporary West Africans... This is mind blowingly dumb.
quote:Do you have any paper on the biological affinities of garamantes ? I could only find what I posted but anyway here again it seems you purposely deny any possibility of slaves impacting them (after centuries of slavery if not millenias I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being almost fully west african ; the same way many modern tuaregs are predominantely west african and look no different from west africans).
Furthermore... Your own source links the protocultures of the Sahara to "true Negroids" only being mixed with Europeans in recent times. I'm really trying to rationalize your obsession with slavery here. I don't see how it's relevant unless you're willing to draw the line and establish what they were like before the impact of slavery. If not, what's the fucking point?
this package of agriculture developed in the nile valley began its sporadic spread westwards about five thousand 20:43 years ago through a thin chain of oases before arriving around 3000 years ago
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: where do you draw the line in trying to disentangle which aspects came from slavery or not?
like they did with common sense and deduction : pottery being a mostly female activity > find west african influences in garamantian pottery > knows garamantes used to import slaves from the sahel > remains show negroid influences was greater on the female part of the population
but yes in general it isn't as simple as that.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: On the contrary, why would I imply their architecture at the height of the urbanization was brought by slaves... Why can't you see how backwards that way of thinking is? It seems that by default we should assume they had no culture because the culture that we can identify relates to those of contemporary West Africans... This is mind blowingly dumb.
Well there are many possibilities here but the thing is that they practiced slavery since so long that it would be quite surprising if their slaves didn't somewhat influence their culture and I admit I don't really know much about this particular society but maybe is there enough datas to compare between "early phases" and the following phase at their height.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Furthermore... Your own source links the protocultures of the Sahara to "true Negroids" only being mixed with Europeans in recent times. I'm really trying to rationalize your obsession with slavery here. I don't see how it's relevant unless you're willing to draw the line and establish what they were like before the impact of slavery. If not, what's the fucking point?
Who denied their presence there ? But does it mean berbers couldn't expand in the sahara and built their own societies there ? There is no obsession with slavery, garamantes were simply known for their slave trade literally the oldest source we have on them highlight how they used to hunt "troglodyte aethiopians" and like you said slavery was universal why is it that everytime a white african population enslaved some dark skinned africans it's "racist" or "anti-black" ??
There is no point I simply brought an explanation as to why there were west african influences when it comes to pottery that's it. I could have done that with any population enslaved by berbers.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Another stupid point, have you not heard of Uncle Ruckus? [/QB]
lol
(btw I went to p. 405 and couldn't find your informations in which volume is it ? or else take a screenshot of the page)
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: where do you draw the line in trying to disentangle which aspects came from slavery or not?
like they did with common sense and deduction : pottery being a mostly female activity > find west african influences in garamantian pottery > knows garamantes used to import slaves from the sahel > remains show negroid influences was greater on the female part of the population
but yes in general it isn't as simple as that.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: On the contrary, why would I imply their architecture at the height of the urbanization was brought by slaves... Why can't you see how backwards that way of thinking is? It seems that by default we should assume they had no culture because the culture that we can identify relates to those of contemporary West Africans... This is mind blowingly dumb.
Well there are many possibilities here but the thing is that they practiced slavery since so long that it would be quite surprising if their slaves didn't somewhat influence their culture and I admit I don't really know much about this particular society but maybe is there enough datas to compare between "early phases" and the following phase at their height.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Furthermore... Your own source links the protocultures of the Sahara to "true Negroids" only being mixed with Europeans in recent times. I'm really trying to rationalize your obsession with slavery here. I don't see how it's relevant unless you're willing to draw the line and establish what they were like before the impact of slavery. If not, what's the fucking point?
Who denied their presence there ? But does it mean berbers couldn't expand in the sahara and built their own societies there ? There is no obsession with slavery, garamantes were simply known for their slave trade literally the oldest source we have on them highlight how they used to hunt "troglodyte aethiopians" and like you said slavery was universal why is it that everytime a white african population enslaved some dark skinned africans it's "racist" or "anti-black" ??
There is no point I simply brought an explanation as to why there were west african influences when it comes to pottery that's it. I could have done that with any population enslaved by berbers.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Another stupid point, have you not heard of Uncle Ruckus?
lol
(btw I went to p. 405 and couldn't find your informations in which volume is it ? or else take a screenshot of the page) [/QB]
405, chapter 7.
Your question about whites enslaving blacks is silly... I'm guessing it's a communication/translation error... Enslaving people based on their perceived race is a racist practice my freind lol. If black Africans enslaved whited Africans (or only non-black people).. it would be racist. Nonetheless I said you are anti-black for consistently bringing up slavery in the context of black African ancestry. Not that it's Anti-black or "racist" to talk about slavery, if that's what you were asking.
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: The Garamantes were EgyptoNubians affliated they were not white berbers from the north but they may have had white berbers for slaves
Leukoaethiopes, “white black people"
quote: Tuareg and Fulani are sometimes called “white” or sometimes “red” in the Arab and African texts respectively, while otherwise called blacks or Sudani). In the region of the modern country of Mauretania and Senegal, the Songhai traders who were mixed with Mande-speakers and called Soninke or Aswanek became known as Imraguen.
Race Blanche
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
The point is that the spread of pottery from a Southern point of origin into the Sahara and Sahel 10,000 years ago has nothing to do with slavery. There is no evidence for it. The Sahara has always been part of "North Africa" and the suggestion that these regions were empty or that Africans never crossed it regularly for trade and other concerns is false.
On that note, the Frenchman Gabriel Camps who is one of the founding fathers of modern Berber studies was one of the ones trying to push this coastal origin for all "North African" culture. The revelation of all the southern and central Saharan sites with early pottery were something he at first denied...
The following is a good paper showing the sites distributed across the central Sahara going back upwards of 5 to 10 thousand years. Not only does this show clearly that innovation and evolution were taking place within the heartland of Africa, but also that Africans were as mobile as any other population in prehistory and not stuck or isolated South of the Sahara. It also gives additional support for the Saharan pump theory that the fluctuation of aridity in the Sahara forced population migration into the surrounding regions in prehistory, including the Levant in the late holocene as seen in the Natufians. And these populations were making important strides toward independent subsistence methods prior to the Neolithic and played a key role in the development of the Neolithic pastoral and sedentary farming societies across a large swath of Africa and the Levant.
quote: In the 1960's Gabriel Camps was hesitant at first in accepting the radio carbon results dating the lower level at Amekni in which pottery was found to the 9th millennium bp (Camps 1969: 206). This early date would have made the Sahara an area of Neolithisation“ as old as the Fertile Crescent, an idea which at that time seemed to be unbelievable. However, during the last forty years the number of radiocarbon dates for Saharan sites with early pottery has increased considerably. Today, the Sahara is not only accepted as an important centre of ceramic innovation (e.g. Roset 1996: 178), but also as one of the earliest: the oldest dates going back to the 10th millennium bp. In Africa pottery was invented sometime in the 10th millennium bp. The invention „took place within the zone that is now the southern Sahara and the Sahel, but probably neither west of the Hoggar Mountains nor east of the Nile Valley“. On the other hand, pottery was probably developed more than once, under various conditions and in different areas (Close 1995: 23, here also the quotation).
This paper deals with the question where pottery might have arisen in this large area of the southern Sahara by taking a closer look at some aspects of the decoration patterns and at the available radiocarbon datings.
Of course those trying to argue against this are going to keep trying to reinforce this idea of African isolation below the Sahara as a very extreme position to avoid any possibility of independent African evolution.
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: 405, chapter 7.
I checked it and these are actually very late remains :
quote: For that reason, the paleodemographic profile of Saniat bin HuwaydI, a cemetery dated between the Ist and 5th centuries AD , will be additionally presented at this point (Fig. 7.21), as this is the cemetery with the greatest number of individuals examined in the current chapter.
Also they say that their SSA set is neolithic and don't give much information about it anyway one of the quote I posted clearly highlights heterogeneity of garamantes further reinforcing the idea of original garamantes being libyans who went south and then gradually changed.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Your question about whites enslaving blacks is silly... I'm guessing it's a communication/translation error... Enslaving people based on their perceived race is a racist practice my freind lol. If black Africans enslaved whited Africans (or only non-black people).. it would be racist. Nonetheless I said you are anti-black for consistently bringing up slavery in the context of black African ancestry. Not that it's Anti-black or "racist" to talk about slavery, if that's what you were asking. [/QB]
You misunderstood me : what I meant is that I'm now in a situation where I can't even talk about slavery since people here always interpret this as some sort of racism towards blacks. Garamantes were surrounded by black populations and they practiced slavery so how is that racist ? The same way romans used to enslave people from further north or from the east med area.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Sheesh do you take us all as easily manipulated dupes? If so it's your racial presumptions fooling you again. Let whoever will fall for your false apologetic back pedalling designed to pull suckers right in. I see clear thru u.
Ashanti are surrounded by black populations and they have practiced slavery certainly differs from Ashanti mixed themselves with black slaves to the point of losing their original phenotype.
Is there an example anywhere in history of a nation importing and mixing with enslaved people to the point they became the same as the enslaved than like their pre-slavery selves. Only in Robert E Howard type white supremist pulp fiction tales involving Africa (Conan, Solomon Kane. Burrough's Tarzan tales the cake with a white orphan being King o' tha Jungle because raised by African animals who are superior to African peoples ... naturally.). Slavery has been and will continue to be an ES topic. That Garamante blackness is attributable to black slaves is an old racist assumption that does not hold up to any investigation of the ancient writers, archaeology, anthropology, ethnology, or genetics.
This is why no such current replicable academic 'proofs' have been posted.
It holds no better than blacks were never among the coast to pre-Sahra North African populations but were introduced there only by slavery a wishful lie of anti-black N Afr prejudiced bigots.
So no corollary hateful racist foolish statements like Roman Italy was white due to mixture from white slaves.
The anti-black poster knows precisely what he's peddling and doesn't fool anyone aware and intolerant of racism that's not even presented subtly and's just another variant of his no blacks anywhere but the supposed West Africa preserve of the negroes of negroland tripe currently flooding ES from Archeo, Antalos, and Fity who's posts promote white Jewish superiority, black inferiority and a blackless ancient Mediterranean world (except as imported slaves).
Ashanti are surrounded by black populations and they have practiced slavery certainly differs from Ashanti mixed themselves with black slaves to the point of losing their original phenotype.
How is that comparable ? Are you implying that there were only "black" populations in north africa ?
How would you explain this ? :
quote:We will borrow from M.-C. Chamla the conclusions of one of the two parts of a book that she recently devoted to the ancient populations of the Sahara. The study of the fifty or so skulls collected in the central Sahara allows the distinction of three morphological types: Negroids representing barely 25%, a mixed type, in which are associated either prognathism and leptorhynia, or orthognathism and platyrhynia, which constitutes a third of the whole, and finally a non-negroid type, well known especially in the central Sahara (Hoggar-Tassili), representing 41.6% of the total skulls studied.However, some 17 years earlier Professor Sergi had also distinguished, among the skulls collected in the burials of Fezzan rightly attributed to the Garamantes, 46.6% Eurafricans, 26.6% nigrified Eurafricans (= mixed type of M.-C. Chamla) and 26.6% negroid. In conclusion, M.-C. Chamla believes that since protohistoric times the racial composition of the populations of the Saharan and South Saharan regions does not seem to have undergone profound changes.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Is there an example anywhere in history of a nation importing and mixing with enslaved people to the point they became the same as the enslaved than like their pre-slavery selves.
Yes you have many examples in Latin America or tuaregs for example.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: It holds no better than blacks were never among the coast to pre-Sahra North African populations but were introduced there only by slavery a wishful lie of anti-black N Afr prejudiced bigots.
Feel free to post a single evidence of such population.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Quit yr stallin and jivin around will ya, just do the homework I assigned you.
Yes feel free to post a single evidence (not some writer's personal race guided opinionated guesswork) of an all white prehistoric North Africa.
I'm not about to repost all that evidence I already posted on blacks in N Afr.
Although I get it that it's all you can do on your best day just making statements w/o backing academic support is futile.
Academic backed evidence of indigenee black coast to pre-Sahra people fills this thread only mentally blocked by those suffering cognitive dissonance and ingrained anti-blackism such as yourself. You're like Dylan Roof who came around black people, took all he could get from those who willingly gave to him in the name of human siblinghood, then after gaining their confidence murdered them. No matter who's you gain you will never have the slightest smidgen of my confidence. Unlike some here I recognize you mean African blx no good. Anybody wanna snuggle up to you gwan let 'em and I don't wanna hear 'em wail when you come up out your sheet and turn on 'em.
I have pointed out where you must go. Jump to it and shutup your clip-clap. You are no authority on no thing and can't academically confirm your baseless presumptions.
I have presented both unretouched Desanges here and unretouched Briggs (with some edited entries) elsewhere.
White Garamante are no different than PBS' white Bir Kesiba/Nabta Playa Early African Herders (EAH). An attempt by Arabics to deny African black prehistory and steal it to boost self-esteem by peoples who were not responsible for African Humid Period accomplishments like pottery oldest in Mali's Ounjougou of the Bandiagara (Dogon's) escarpment SAVANNA not the Sahara as erroneously claimed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ounjougou#Holocene Just remember there were no NCs in forest W Afr 11kya.
It's important to know that when the world hears Sahara they see white North Africans. They do not see the AHP blacks aka Sahra- Sudanese who thoroughly occupied from 28º North on the Atlantic coast to the Fezzan then sloping to 22º North at Lake Nasser (Birs/Playas).
posted
@tukuler I see you're not able to explain the quote I posted nor are you able to provide a single evidence on an indigenous "black" population in coastal north africa and the rest are just strawman.
I will repeat some important things :
- I never denied the presence of blacks in the Sahara (but like I said in another thread it doesn't mean every black there today is indigenous let alone coastal north africa)
- Stop always trying to bring advancements made by "blacks" like DougM does ; I'm not into this competition thing nor do I believe blacks have been some kind of eternally backward folks.
-Stop constantly whining about muh racism, this won't work with me so stay on topic.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @tukuler I see you're not able to explain the quote I posted nor are you able to provide a single evidence on an indigenous "black" population in coastal north africa and the rest are just strawman.
I will repeat some important things :
- I never denied the presence of blacks in the Sahara (but like I said in another thread it doesn't mean every black there today is indigenous let alone coastal north africa)
- Stop always trying to bring advancements made by "blacks" like DougM does ; I'm not into this competition thing nor do I believe blacks have been some kind of eternally backward folks.
-Stop constantly whining about muh racism, this won't work with me so stay on topic.
Dude, why don't YOU stay on topic? This thread isn't about slavery. It is about the evidence of a network of pottery production across the Sahara and Sahel during and after the humid period. Nothing you are talking about is relevant to the topic of this thread.
And back to the actual topic and the sidelining into irrelevant talking points:
Discussion of Holocene sites in Niger where the Kiffian and Tenerian cultures were located. These areas are not far from the Fezzan in Southern Libya so I wouldn't be surprised if these people had a relationship in the holocene. Again, this idea of there being a "population gap" between parts of Africa is not supported. Meaning the Saharan population of Africa is always being omitted as if the only populations in Africa started south of the Sahara, which is obviously false.
Also for the purposes of this discussion I will not use the terminologies that serve to divide and obfuscate the continuity of African peoples between and across time and space. Saharan and Sahelian are sufficient enough to understand the point that this vast area was far from empty in history and always had populations within it, albeit in lower numbers due to desertification.
The ceramics from Adrar Bous and surrounding areas
quote: The ceramic assemblage from Adrar Bous and surrounding areas collected by the British Expedition to the Aïr Mountains was restudied in May and June 2002. The purpose of the research was to identify the main stages of the ceramic production chaîne operatoire and to apply the most recent methods of decorative technique and tool classification developed for Sudanese and Saharan pottery to the Adrar Bous sample. The assemblage comprised a total of 5154 specimens, mainly potsherds and a few complete or nearly complete vessels. Four main chrono-cultural aggregates could be defined according to the types of pastes, decorations, condition of preservation and chronology. Kiffian-associated pottery was the earliest, and Tenerian ceramics were the most numerous. In addition to these two well known aggregates, two other groups could be distinguished, on the basis of their technological characterisation, types of decoration and comparisons with other Saharan contexts. One displays affinities with the Early Pastoral pottery in the Libyan Sahara (cf. Garcea 2003), suggesting that this assemblage is later than the Kiffian and earlier than the typical Tenerian. I named it Early Tenerian, which is a distinct complex from the main Tenerian assemblage in terms of the type of clay, inclusions and decorations. The Tenerian covers the period between about 7000 and 4500 B.P. (Clark 1971; Smith 1980). A later phase was initially defined as ‘Pre-Islamic’ and originally dated from 3000 B.P., according to Williams (1976), and later from around 4500 B.P., according to Paris (1990). Here, the term LateTenerian (fig. 9.1) is suggested for the ceramic assemblage distinctly different from the typical Tenerian.
...
Considering the chronology, cultural context and environmental conditions, it seems reasonable to suggest that Kiffian groups developed a specific adaptation around Adrar Bous that they were able to maintain even as the environment changed in the Central Saharan massifs. Kiffian occupations are dated around the 9th-8th millennia B.P. by Smith (1976, 1980). The ORSTOM Mission in the same area provided radiocarbon and TL dates 9500 and 9000 B.P. (8400-7500 cal B.C.) (Guibert et al. 1994; Roset 2000; Roset et al. 1990), which seem consistent with the associated macro-blade assemblages (Smith 1993). These earlier ORSTOM dates do not imply that dates previously obtained are aberrant, rather that the Kiffian must have lasted through most of the 9th-8th millennia B.P. This phase corresponds to a drying episode in Niger, commencing around 8500 B.P. and continuing until c.6000 B.P. (Roset 1987). I suggest that, despite the drying trend, environmental conditions at Adrar Bous must have been able to support groups engaged in intensive fishing and exploitation of riverine and lacustrine resources during a period that was climatically unfavourable in other Saharan areas north of the Tenere.
The Early Tenerian is a distinct complex with fine textured pottery, often decorated with plain zigzags deeply impressed into the soft clay. It can be mainly distinguished from the Tenerian assemblage by the type of clay, decorations and inclusions. Dung tempers are much rarer than in the Tenerian and Late Tenerian complexes. Mineral inclusions are rounded and spherical, and burnishing is rare.
The typical Tenerian ceramic assemblages display some decorative motifs found throughout the Sahara and others distinctive of Adrar Bous. Alternately piv- oting stamp decoration in parallel bands of pairs of large dots and pairs of triangles are found all over the Sahara (Garcea 1993, 1998). On the other hand, spaced zig- zags made with short-toothed (usually three or four teeth) or plain tools, often producing a fishnet design, are absent in the Central Sahara north of the Tenere, and typify these ceramics associated with Tenerian lithics. Pastes have rare inclu- sions, often comprising dung and mica. Tenerian pottery offer a wide variety of shape types, including bowls, globular and oval jars, often with necks or flaring rims, suggesting a variety of specialised food processing and practices. Tenerian pottery was usually found concentrated in areas that were separated from lithic workshops, suggesting distinct activities (Clark et al. 1973; Smith 1980).
Apart from general features in common with Saharan pastoral groups, Tenerian populations appear to have had a substantially richer subsistence economy, a more complex settlement system, a more elaborated technological production and probably more favourable environmental conditions. Animal herding was mostly based on cattle, which always prevailed over small livestock (chapters 11, 12). By contrast, in the Tadrart Acacus and other Central Saharan massifs, there was no evidence of such an intensive reliance on cattle. Caprine herding soon integrated with and then replaced cattle rearing in most such Central Saharan pastoral sites (Garcea 2003). Environmental evidence indicates extensive and reliable bodies of water at Adrar Bous that were absent farther north, so Tenerian pastoralists could rely on more predictable water sources for their cattle herds.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @tukuler I see you're not able to explain the quote I posted nor are you able to provide a single evidence on an indigenous "black" population in coastal north africa and the rest are just strawman.
I will repeat some important things :
- I never denied the presence of blacks in the Sahara (but like I said in another thread it doesn't mean every black there today is indigenous let alone coastal north africa)
- Stop always trying to bring advancements made by "blacks" like DougM does ; I'm not into this competition thing nor do I believe blacks have been some kind of eternally backward folks.
-Stop constantly whining about muh racism, this won't work with me so stay on topic.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @tukuler I see you're not able to explain the quote I posted nor are you able to provide a single evidence on an indigenous "black" population in coastal north africa and the rest are just strawman.
I will repeat some important things :
- I never denied the presence of blacks in the Sahara (but like I said in another thread it doesn't mean every black there today is indigenous let alone coastal north africa)
- Stop always trying to bring advancements made by "blacks" like DougM does ; I'm not into this competition thing nor do I believe blacks have been some kind of eternally backward folks.
-Stop constantly whining about muh racism, this won't work with me so stay on topic.
Hi, I have read some of your postings and in my opinion, you contributed to the discussions here by using relevant information. For instance, the studies on the Carthaginians/ Punics you've shared here were very interesting. Plus, it seems that you are pretty much knowledgeable in how to read and interpret genetic papers, which many people fail to do. However, when it comes to SSA-like admixture in Ancient or modern North Africans or Berbers, you come off pretty one-sided and too over-focused to attribute it to slavery. Regardless of whether Garamantes were slavers, they traded and had cultural exchanges with Saharan black folks. In fact, admixture doesn't only come via slavery but through trading, cultural exchanges, and migration. Anyway, it would be a pity if you get banned since once again you contributed some good stuff here, and it's interesting to read your take on genetic papers. It makes ES interesting when people with different perspectives present and discuss the data and ideas in a scholastic manner. The bottom line, the Garamantes were very active in the trade that connected the Mediterranean Sea with sub-Saharan Africa, so it cannot be excluded that they were a people that had various ethnic components within it very early on.
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: Hi, I have read some of your postings and in my opinion, you contributed to the discussions here by using relevant information. For instance, the studies on the Carthaginians/ Punics you've shared here were very interesting. Plus, it seems that you are pretty much knowledgeable in how to read and interpret genetic papers, which many people fail to do. However, when it comes to SSA-like admixture in Ancient or modern North Africans or Berbers, you come off pretty one-sided and too over-focused to attribute it to slavery. Regardless of whether Garamantes were slavers, they traded and had cultural exchanges with Saharan black folks. In fact, admixture doesn't only come via slavery but through trading, cultural exchanges, and migration. Anyway, it would be a pity if you get banned since once again you contributed some good stuff here, and it's interesting to read your take on genetic papers. It makes ES interesting when people with different perspectives present and discuss the data and ideas in a scholastic manner. The bottom line, the Garamantes were very active in the trade that connected the Mediterranean Sea with sub-Saharan Africa, so it cannot be excluded that they were a people that had various ethnic components within it very early on. [/QB]
Thanks for your compliments and yes I believe such place would be better if people can freely express their opinions and interpretations but some here apparently prefer to stay in their sterile afrocentrist and racist framework. If you disagree with people who constantly depict your people as "invaders" or the product of recent population movements then you're racist and anti-black.
Anyway, it's not that I come off as pretty one-sided it's just that I cross-check all the datas I have in order to have a good overall view of what I'm dealing with and like I wrote to elmaestro I do not necessarily imply that all the influences came through slavery. Many members here are far from proposing realistic theories in line with archaelogical/historical datas but let's not derive too much from the topic here.
I repeat : OP's quote highlights west african influences especially when it comes to pottery and it simply reminded me of that paper who talked about the sahelian slaves of garamantes bringing new cultural elements among them that's it.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
This thread isn't about slavery or injecting modern notions of identity or "race" onto ancient Africans. These populations came from the South and were not "separate" from other Africans. These are not coastal populations subject to mixture with non Africans. This is about the abundant evidence of the trans Saharan connections that arose from Africans migrating into and through the Sahara over 10,000 years during and after the Holocene.
And on that note here is an image showing the locations of the sites being discussed and some other relevant time frames for food processing.
quote: Domesticatory Settings: Climatic and Social Variability and Subsistence Intensification
Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
During the Early and mid-Holocene, diverse hunter-gatherer groups lived close to permanent water in widely separated regions of northeastern Africa, from the Acacus to Lake Victoria (Caneva 1988; Garcea 2006; Holl 2005; Prendergast and Lane 2010). Ethnoarchaeological research suggests that this social and economic variability played a significant role in pathways to food production in Africa. Recent hunter-gatherers with long-term investment in hive and trap construction and delayed-return social systems and limited sharing have historically been able to accommodate more easily property-rights issues arising out of time investment in agriculture than have those with highly egalitarian norms (Brooks, Gelburd, and Yellen 1984; Dale, Marshall, and Pilgram 2004; Marshall 2000; Smith 1998; Woodburn 1982). Moreover, cattle herding requires significantly greater commitment than cultivation because foragers can tend crops intermittently and accommodate them into flexible hunter-gatherer schedules, whereas animal herds require protection against predators and constant attention (Dale, Marshall, and Pilgram 2004; Marshall 2000). As a result, Africanists have hypothesized that domestication of cattle is more likely to have been undertaken and pastoralism adopted in regions of northeastern Africa that were occupied by complex rather than highly mobile egalitarian hunter-gatherers (Marshall and Hildebrand 2002).
Arguments that complex or delayed-return systems of social organization existed in the Acacus, the Sudanese Nile Valley, and some other regions of the African Early to mid-Holocene are based on elaboration of material culture, including manufacture of ceramics and storage facilities in these areas and highly patterned use of rock-shelter sites and local landscapes (Barich 1987; di Lernia 1999, 2001; Garcea 2004; McDonald 2008). Significant investment in living spaces and limited movement are indicated by hut construction at Nabta Playa in the Acacus Mountains and the northern Sudanese Nile Valley and by isotopic analyses at Gobero in Niger and Acacus sites (Barich 1987; Garcea 2006; Sereno et al. 2008; Tafuri et al. 2006). In the central Sahara, the Sudanese Nile Valley, and the Acacus, human burials are common (Caneva 1988; Honegger 2004; Sereno et al. 2008). Garcea (2004) and di Lernia (1999, 2001) argue that their presence in the Late Acacus phase (ca. 10,250–9600 to 9890–9440 cal BP) may relate to group identities and rights to land.
North African hunter-gatherers of the Early and mid-Holocene employed highly diverse subsistence as well as social systems. Wild cattle (Bos primigenius) were hunted along the Mediterranean coast and the Nile Valley, and small numbers of wild ass (Equus africanus) were also present in many sites (Alhaique and Marshall 2009; Gautier 1987a; Marshall 2007). Barbary sheep (Ammotragus lervia) were the most common animal hunted across North Africa at this time (di Lernia 2001; Gautier 1987a; Saxon et al. 1974). In the Late Acacus sites of Ti-n-Torah, Uan Tabu, and Uan Afuda, intensive exploitation of wild cereals (e.g., Echinochloa, Panicum, Setaria, Digitaria, and Pennisetum) is associated with heavy grindstone use (di Lernia 1999; Garcea 2001; Mercuri 2001; fig. 1). A similar set of wild grass seeds were harvested, processed, and stored in the eastern Sahara during the late tenth and early ninth millennia at Nabta Playa, site E-75-6 (Wasylikowa et al. 1993; Wendorf and Schild 1998; for radiocarbon dates, see Table 2). Along the Sudanese Nile, a variety of wild mammals were hunted in conjunction with fishing for large deepwater fish and intensive grindstone use (Caneva 1988; Haaland 1987).
Keep in mind that the areas being discussed here are upwards of 1,000 miles away from the coast in "North Africa". Which means using modern coastal populations as proxies for these Holocene populations moving north is nonsense. Similarly the environmental belt referred to as the Sahel zone has fluctuated over time and at one point was much further South than today. This area is bigger than the size of the continental United States.
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @tukuler I see you're not able to explain the quote I posted nor are you able to provide a single evidence on an indigenous "black" population in coastal north africa and the rest are just strawman.
I will repeat some important things :
- I never denied the presence of blacks in the Sahara (but like I said in another thread it doesn't mean every black there today is indigenous let alone coastal north africa)
- Stop always trying to bring advancements made by "blacks" like DougM does ; I'm not into this competition thing nor do I believe blacks have been some kind of eternally backward folks.
-Stop constantly whining about muh racism, this won't work with me so stay on topic.
Hi, I have read some of your postings and in my opinion, you contributed to the discussions here by using relevant information. For instance, the studies on the Carthaginians/ Punics you've shared here were very interesting. Plus, it seems that you are pretty much knowledgeable in how to read and interpret genetic papers, which many people fail to do. However, when it comes to SSA-like admixture in Ancient or modern North Africans or Berbers, you come off pretty one-sided and too over-focused to attribute it to slavery. Regardless of whether Garamantes were slavers, they traded and had cultural exchanges with Saharan black folks. In fact, admixture doesn't only come via slavery but through trading, cultural exchanges, and migration. Anyway, it would be a pity if you get banned since once again you contributed some good stuff here, and it's interesting to read your take on genetic papers. It makes ES interesting when people with different perspectives present and discuss the data and ideas in a scholastic manner. The bottom line, the Garamantes were very active in the trade that connected the Mediterranean Sea with sub-Saharan Africa, so it cannot be excluded that they were a people that had various ethnic components within it very early on.
You can blow smoke up his arse if you want but his behavior is trollish and he continues to derail the thread. Also it's one thing to have a good knack for genetics and another to understand culture, anthropology, history and geography which he is sorely lacking because his own prejudice won't allow him to absorb information when it is right in front of him
He has cognitive dissonance
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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