quote:Originally posted by yazid904: American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet! merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
Beneth all this is a motive strongly driven by genetic survial.
Posts: 179 | From: United States | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:kephra: People like Yonis (racist) believe in such theories.
You should be banned for such personal attacks? I don't know you, infact this is the first post i've ever read made by you. No one has ever called me what you just called me, who the hell are you first of all?
If you're gonna call people names the least you can do is to back it up, stupid hoe!
Personal attack? All one have to do is go through your post and see that you have a problem with a certain set of people.
If I'm banned for speaking the truth then that fine ...
And who exactly are these imaginative people i have a problem with?
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^ I think some folks in here get the impression that you are being condescending toward African Americans or looking down on them. Either way I don't know how this could be 'racist' considering that you Yonis are black also! LOL Maybe ethnically prejudice but not racist. Also, I have actually witnessed people from West Africa that really (wrongly) look down on African Americans.
I suggest you guys take all of this black-on-black hating crap on another forum. This is Egyptsearch not BET.com!
quote:Originally posted by Kemson:
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet! merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
Beneth all this is a motive strongly driven by genetic survial.
'Genetic survival' of who? Whites?? How does classifying black people from North Africa as 'white' fulfill that purpose?! Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I think some folks in here get the impression that you are being condescending toward African Americans or looking down on them. Either way I don't know how this could be 'racist' considering that you Yonis are black also! LOL Maybe ethnically prejudice but not racist. Also, I have actually witnessed people from West Africa that really (wrongly) look down on African Americans.
I suggest you guys take all of this black-on-black hating crap on another forum. This is Egyptsearch not BET.com!
quote:Originally posted by Kemson:
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet! merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
Beneth all this is a motive strongly driven by genetic survial.
'Genetic survival' of who? Whites?? How does classifying black people from North Africa as 'white' fulfill that purpose?!
Why can't a Black be racist toward another Black. If an African hates other Africans he is just as racist as a white.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Just yesterday I was talking to some neighbors about an African restaurant in the neighborhood. They dont serve the people in the neighborhood. The people I was talking to all said the same thing, that the Africans look down on the African Americans and dont want to associate with them........
While we all talk about African unity, history and consciousness, the fact is that there is a lot of bigotry within the African community, both in and outside of Africa. If it wasnt for that, it would not have been so easy for Africa to have been conquered in the first place.
Posts: 8896 | Registered: May 2005
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My remarkes came from reading books. The Internet has the latest scholarship on many African topics. You were right and I was wrong. But, that doesn't mean there weren't successive waves of tall East Africans coming in slowly over time marrying the original women displacing the original men.
KingScorpion,
I've seen them. Live near them. ------d them.
Yazid,
We know who we are. We know where we came from.
[
I KNOW!!!
Or at least i do. I have the DNA files y'all do not have.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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But, that doesn't mean there weren't successive waves of tall East Africans coming in slowly over time marrying the original women displacing the original men.
Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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On the basis of consistency(logic) I don't see how a "black" can be racist towards another "black". Unless...as you would seem to imply that there are different "races" of blacks.
I know that in the West research has been conducted on intra-racial caste discrimination among blacks based on levels of pigmenation and assumed gradients of phenotypical proximity to an assumed European norm.
In the case of Africa the same principle is presumed to be operative in North Africa, Rwanda-Burundi, South Africa--indigenous Africans against other Africans(see May "New African" magazine and the problems Somalis face in South Africa; and "Coloureds" against ethnic South Africans.
All this would seem to be based on an already discredited European paradigm. Comments?
Doug,
Interesting what you report--though quite vague. "African" restaurants in the West are usually of 4-5 varieties, and they tend to cater to Europeans especially. They are Moroccan, Senegalese, Egyptian and Ethiopian/Eritrean.
Which is it re your post?
If reports are accurate then the matter could be easily solved by the complainants using a hidden camera to record the discriminatory practice then mounting a law suit. Or they can just do the same with the local media invited to witness matters clandestinely.
But here's a parallel question: when the Anglo settlers in the U.S. openly discriminated against the Irish settlers was that a case of racial descrimination or otherwise?
And what about Japanese official and long-standing discrimination against Koreans and superiority complex against the Chinese(think of the atrocities during the "Rape of Nanking"), would that be "racial" discrimination?
In the Sengambia region, there is the generaal belief that Senegalese see themselves as "superior" to Gambians--even though both peoples are from the same ethnic populations. Would this be "racial" discrimination?
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
The definition of racism is that one race believes it is superior to another race. Given this definition the answer is yes.
Wouldn't you call the German murder of Jews a case of racism both groups were white. This was also the case of the Serbs, who murdered many Bosnians--both of these groups were white.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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I am not sure that the Nazi "race" scientists saw the Jews as "white" in the intra-European sense. They did, however, set up a racial hierachy in which the racially superior stocks were Nordic/Teutonic with the Slavs, Jews and Gypsies being of inferior races. Some German theorists referred to Jews as being of the Hebrew race.
All this followed on the late 19th century idea(Ripley et al.) that there were different indigenous "races" of Europe--Alpine, Mediterranean and Nordic.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
E3a newcomers replaced A Y chromosome originals and married L1 and L2 women.
To the rest of y'all,
West Africans don't hate African Americans.
Agreed. I think that the more a Black is acculturated to Western civilization the more they hate other Blacks, this was proven by the research of Fanon.
Among whites racism is the same as nationalism. Among whites if you live in a different nation the people believe it is alright to hate you .
posted
L1, L2 and L3 are all East African in origin.
E3 [father of E3a and E3b] is found in both Senegal and Ethiopia. E1 and E2 are also found in West and East Africa.
And don't forget DE* precursor of D and E has been found to date only in Nigeria, and *not* in East Africa.
Haplotype A and B also originated in East Africa.
A is rare in West Africa and more common in Sudan Ethiopia and Southern/East Africa.
Haplotype B is more common in West Africa and is possibly the 1st male haplotype of West Africa, followed by DE*(?), then E1, E2, E3, and thence E3a. (?)
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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To Clyde: That depends on how you define 'race'. If by race you mean any group of people in general, then anyone can be 'racist', or rather there does exist prejudice or enmity between a wide variety of peoples regardless of how they look or what background they are from. Japanese for example, are prejudice against other Asians including Koreans despite phenotypically being no different. Heck, there was (still is) prejudice between northern Protestant Irish and southern Catholic Irish, even though they both of the same ethnicity! But of course, there is the second definition (which we discuss all the time in this forum. ) which defines 'race' as a people of a particular phenotype or color. If by this, I don't see how a black African can be racist against another person of African descent unless you are as mentally colonised as the northern Sudanese, or Hutus and Tusis of Rawanda, or as twisted as some 'Horner supremacists'.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Just yesterday I was talking to some neighbors about an African restaurant in the neighborhood. They dont serve the people in the neighborhood. The people I was talking to all said the same thing, that the Africans look down on the African Americans and dont want to associate with them........
While we all talk about African unity, history and consciousness, the fact is that there is a lot of bigotry within the African community, both in and outside of Africa. If it wasnt for that, it would not have been so easy for Africa to have been conquered in the first place.
^ Wow, I knew such prejudice existed but I didn't know it was that bad.
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Really? whoa I'm suprised
I don't understand why, when we African Americans are so fly
So I guess instead of the Foreign Aid some West Africans are On Hater Aid also Sad Could Jealousy be the reason ?
I think part of the reason is ethnic conceit or egotism common among many African groups, while another is the negative stereotypes that abound about African Americans. Likely it is the unpleasant combination of both.
quote:Anyway BET doesn't represent Black Americans anymore It Just Represent Mindless Capitalism
Offically in the Black Adult Community Known as Channel Zero
Owned by Via- Con
LOL I noticed that. When BET first came out, I thought it was like the black version of MTV. But then they had other things besides music, including more intelligent stuff. But ever since Via com bought it, it went downhill. Coincidence? I don't think so.
To RedCow: Is that gullah food? It looks so good, it's making me hungry. Maybe that's cuz I missed lunch to. LOL But getting back to the main topic at hand. Your claims on African history or prehistory make no sense.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow:
But, that doesn't mean there weren't successive waves of tall East Africans coming in slowly over time marrying the original women displacing the original men.
Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
Yes please?...
But Rasol answers the question.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: L1, L2 and L3 are all East African in origin.
E3 [father of E3a and E3b] is found in both Senegal and Ethiopia. E1 and E2 are also found in West and East Africa.
And don't forget DE* precursor of D and E has been found to date only in Nigeria, and *not* in East Africa.
Haplotype A and B also originated in East Africa.
A is rare in West Africa and more common in Sudan Ethiopia and Southern/East Africa.
Haplotype B is more common in West Africa and is possibly the 1st male haplotype of West Africa, followed by DE*(?), then E1, E2, E3, and thence E3a. (?)
And non of the lineages above are associated with a specific phenotype such as short and steatopygous (which is found in tall women also) or tall and slender.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Just yesterday I was talking to some neighbors about an African restaurant in the neighborhood. They dont serve the people in the neighborhood. The people I was talking to all said the same thing, that the Africans look down on the African Americans and dont want to associate with them........
While we all talk about African unity, history and consciousness, the fact is that there is a lot of bigotry within the African community, both in and outside of Africa. If it wasnt for that, it would not have been so easy for Africa to have been conquered in the first place.
There is inter-ethnic bigotry everywhere. Just look at the way German and Irish hated each other...and the British as well. Puerto Ricans vs. Cubans or Mexicans. Chinese and Japanese and/or Korean. It happens within all races everywhere sadly.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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It's Gullah food. But, Gullah food and culture is at the root of African American culture and the meal is a typical African American meal across the country.
Phenotypes and DNA do not always match. I generally stick to the Sudanic newcomer THEORY. I was not there thousands of years ago. I do not know for sure 100%. I could be wrong.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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But, that doesn't mean there weren't successive waves of tall East Africans coming in slowly over time marrying the original women displacing the original men.
Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
Yes please?...
But Rasol answers the question.
If he has answered it, I must have missed it, because again this is about evidence of 'replacement' of a certain male population(s) by another [set of] male population(s). It goes without saying of course, that MyRedCow didn't answer the question he was presumably answering, because simply saying something happened doesn't mean it happened so...evidence is required.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: African Americans are descended from black African slaves as well as other African migrants in more recent times, from throughout the diaspora. The term African American does NOT only identify Americans who are descended from those who were brought to America as slaves. I know people from ALL OVER THE PLANET that are in America and called African American and are not descended from American slaves. Therefore, the term is NOT an absolute genetic reference or ethnic identity that has any real meaning relative to all the various populations in Africa. I know Guyanans, Jamaicans, Haitians, continental Africans and others who are all called African Americans today. That is EXACTLY the whole problem of the identity crisis for African Americans who descended from slaves.
Fundamentally, Ancient Egypt is part of the heritage of African Americans as both populations stem from the same background, Africa. But that is different from direct ancestry. However, given that human beings first existed in Eastern Africa before any other place on earth and that the Nile is a direct link between the birthplace of modern humans and Egypt, it is not far fetched that ancient Egyptians could have descended from populations that were indeed ancestral to West Africans.
Doug, An excellent point but this refers to USA only. Based on syllogistic and logical steps to reach a conclusion. an African American (should be) is one with roots in Africa, regardless of location. BUT that logiocal conclusion has been usurped to include only a certain group based on hue! Language also plays a central part of usage in assigning people with a different hue to various locations. For example, with British English, a black fella (black fellow/black person) could be an Asian Indian, a Pakistani, an African, an aboriginee and others who fit the color of black/brown! In France, a magrehbin is usually a North African, though generally African refers to them all. I recently saw a newspaper headline with the new French prime minister appointing a rightist member with 'African roots'. Apparently they have been in France for a few generation!
Regarding African American and Egyptians, I am wary of those type of assignation because if I am looking at a sample size in a specific area to see where African American roots were, I wouldl never look at an "Egyptian sample", I would concentrate in West Africa and Angola as opposed to Egypt or East Africa!
RedCow, We could be long lost brothers! Don't laugh. The references (fotos) you give show West African roots and the food could be from any Caribbean, South American, Central American area, albeit influenecd by West Africa! Mofongo? Callalu? cucu with flying fish!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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It's Gullah food. But, Gullah food and culture is at the root of African American culture and the meal is a typical African American meal across the country.
Well I want some! Yum! I haven't had a homecook (Filippino) meal in a while since I'm at school for the summer.
quote:Phenotypes and DNA do not always match. I generally stick to the Sudanic newcomer THEORY. I was not there thousands of years ago. I do not know for sure 100%. I could be wrong.
The thing is you are wrong as people in this thread are trying to tell you. Phenotype and DNA do essentially match since phenotype is the result of DNA, but the thing we are dealing with specifically are lineages which do not necessarily match with phenotype. What exactly is your 'Sudanic newcomer' theory based on anyway?
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: If he has answered it, I must have missed it, because again this is about evidence of 'replacement' of a certain male population(s) by another [set of] male population(s). It goes without saying of course, that MyRedCow didn't answer the question he was presumably answering, because simply saying something happened doesn't mean it happened so...evidence is required.
Rasol did answer the question with evidence that there was no displacement of populations in West Africa by any newcomers. That was my point.
Ultimately Doug M is absolutely correct that West Africans and their descendants (African Americans) share a common origin with many Egyptians via the Sahara as denoted by E3a paternal lineages as well as Benin HBS sickle cell phenotype. This could also explain strong similarities in cultures between the two groups but it is a far cry from claiming one group descended from the other.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
Of course I'm absolutely correct!
And here's more solid evidence;
quote: Some Relevant Information From the Nile Valley Forum ([my corrections]) Akpakpla wrote: Mdw Ntr: her,"head" [hor] Pulaar(Fulani dialect spoken in Senegal) hoore,"head" Mdw Ntr: seped her,"clever"(written with the Md Ntr of a cone) [sepde hor] Pulaar(Fulani dialect) seebde hoore,"to have a pointed head(i.e.to be clever)" Mdw Ntr: wpw her,"to except" [wopu hor] Pulaar(Fulani dialect) woppu hoore,"to leave a head(i.e.to except) Mdw Ntr: irt "eye" [iret/eiat] Pulaar: yiireete "eye" Mdw Ntr: irt bnt, "the Evil Eye" [iret boone] Pulaar(Fulani dialect) yiireete bonnde, "the Evil Eye"
...there's tons and tons more evidence as well, for the ill-informed ...
And every African-American (who is a descendant of the original population; circa 1600-1800) has some Fulani ancestry!
This is really a no-brainer, and simple enough for even a toddler to understand...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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The British slaveowners transported their slaves back and forth between their colonies. The first British settlers in the south east were from the West Indians and so were their slaves. The USA was a British colony and they wanted Africans.
The main cultural group of the African Americans is Senegambian. There are only two language families Mande and West Atlantic.
My theory comes from the writings of Cheik Anta Diop, A.M. Lam, and my SPECIAL TOPIC which is MEGALITHS AND TUMULI. I mentioned it many times and never really explained. I know that.
Myra has on her site a page on the Megaliths in Egypt. She does not understand what she has.
There is a line of megaliths going from East Africa to West Africa ending up in Senegambian Megaliths which are the youngest. Associated with these megaliths are tumuli(burial mounds). The Africans placed their kings,emperors, in the tumuli with precious objects.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
The vertical line in the above map represents a megalithic complex. Like I said they go from east to west. And our ancestors are buried in them. The oldest are in the Nile Valley. The youngest are in Senegal.
Do you know the mythology of the Mande and Atlantic tribal people in Senegambia and the Rice Coast? Do you know the names of their deities?
AH!!!!!!!!!!
I don't want to give it all away right here, but the African American slaves are buried a certain way and some have certain characteristics on their skeletons.
The Serer people created the Senegambian structures originally. Some say they are the ancestors of the Fulani. What's in those tumuli? Why have the tumuli in Mali been raided and the goods taken away?
The funeral technology of Senegambia came through Mali and Mali's burial technique came from further east ultimately goin to the Nile Valley although the oldest African tumuli are in the Sahara.
Looking at the map, one can see the half circles representing pottery.
These megaliths in Africa are places of ritual animal slaughter, burials and they are astronomically positioned. The Senegambian Megaliths which weigh tons point east to the rising sun.
It's much deeper that you think.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
There are phallic monoliths in Ethiopia that are identical to those in Mali and Nigeria thousands of miles to the west. Is it all coincidence? What about the strange inscriptions on those monoliths?
OK. I'll tell you. The skeletons are often in a fetal position or laying on their sides like a baby in the womb of Mother Earth. From Egypt and Nubia many skeletons have their heads or feet pointing North, East, West, South in a uniform manner. This has been seen in the graves of African American slaves.
Africa has an ancient spiritual geomancy technology which is the ancestor of Chinese Fenf Shui and its Hindu counterpart.
Senegal
Nabta Playa
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
Of course I'm absolutely correct!
And here's more solid evidence;
quote: Some Relevant Information From the Nile Valley Forum ([my corrections]) Akpakpla wrote: Mdw Ntr: her,"head" [hor] Pulaar(Fulani dialect spoken in Senegal) hoore,"head" Mdw Ntr: seped her,"clever"(written with the Md Ntr of a cone) [sepde hor] Pulaar(Fulani dialect) seebde hoore,"to have a pointed head(i.e.to be clever)" Mdw Ntr: wpw her,"to except" [wopu hor] Pulaar(Fulani dialect) woppu hoore,"to leave a head(i.e.to except) Mdw Ntr: irt "eye" [iret/eiat] Pulaar: yiireete "eye" Mdw Ntr: irt bnt, "the Evil Eye" [iret boone] Pulaar(Fulani dialect) yiireete bonnde, "the Evil Eye"
...there's tons and tons more evidence as well, for the ill-informed ...
And every African-American (who is a descendant of the original population; circa 1600-1800) has some Fulani ancestry!
This is really a no-brainer, and simple enough for even a toddler to understand...
Why? Pray tell are we still trying to prove the obvious? Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
^ But how does any of the above show West Africans' origins from the Nile Valley??
What archaeological evidence shows a mass migration from the Nile Valley into West Africa at the end of the Dynastic period?? Non that I have heard of.
Why can't it be accepted that West Africans share a common origin with some Egyptians via the Sahara?? Most of the linguistic examples cited (which again are nothing short of random words) are languages that stem from around the Saharan area like Peul which ironically neighbors Afrasian speakers like Tuareg.
As far as the phallic structures in Ethiopia is concerned, there is no direct link with Senegal. Why can't this be taken as a coincidence or simply shared African beliefs?
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I basically agree but my immediate reality is that it is foolish for any African American to claim Egyptian heritage because of the Africanity of continent? Just me! It like some Mississppi and Alabama African Americans all of a sudden going to Israel and proclaiming themselves the original Israelites!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Believe what you will. This is a big topic which I haven't finished researching, if I ever do.
I found in a book of Moroccan history a statue from Egypt in a Roman grave. The Berbers are claiming Egypt big time. They are claiming the ram headed god and the cattle in Kemet.
The Amazigh want to claim partially the Senegambian megaliths. They want to claim everything and the foundation of AE itself. They say they inherited the legacy of AE.
When you say the West Africans and Ancient Egyptians have Saharan roots, this implies Amazigh roots. This is a tricky analysis. They want Timbuktu, the tumuli, all the megaliths, and iron production. They want it all.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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The Israelites were in North Africa. They fought against the Romans. The mixed with the Berbers. These Amazigh tribes including the Sanhajas adopted Judaism. Senegal comes from the Sanhaja/Zanaga/Znaga - The Jewish Berber tribe. These guys mixed cultural and sometimes physically with the Sahelian Blacks and Senegambian Blacks.
After the destruction of the 2nd Temple two waves of Israelites left Cyrenaica and went south. They mixed in with the Znaga, the ancestors of the Tuareg which include the Znaga, some Peul, some Sohgai, some Manding etc.
After 1492, Sephardic Jews accompanied Judar Pasha into Songhay and lived on the Niger River. There are dozens of "new" Hebrew texts coming out of Timbuktu. There are West African tribes who demonstrate an Israelite origin. Israeli professors and academics have visited these tribes in Mali and Nigeria. The Peul have a definite Jewish background.
The gullah were in a land that was populated highly by Sephardic Jews. Some of the Slavemasters were Jewish and impregnated their slaves. There were Sephardic Jews in Senegambia involved in the Slave Trade. The Sephardic Jews came out of your Caribbean and ended up in the southeastern USA.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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Believe what you will. This is a big topic which I haven't finished researching, if I ever do.
I found in a book of Moroccan history a statue from Egypt in a Roman grave. The Berbers are claiming Egypt big time. They are claiming the ram headed god and the cattle in Kemet.
The Amazigh want to claim partially the Senegambian megaliths. They want to claim everything and the foundation of AE itself. They say they inherited the legacy of AE.
When you say the West Africans and Ancient Egyptians have Saharan roots, this implies Amazigh roots. This is a tricky analysis. They want Timbuktu, the tumuli, all the megaliths, and iron production. They want it all.
The Berbers are just proclaiming themselves as Africans by tracing their customs and traditions back to those of ancient populations in the African continent. They cannot CLAIM these traditions because they exist in a time period PRIOR to any "Berber" presence or identity in Africa and over a geographic range that is NOT part of the present day "Berber" population centers. "Berber" is a language group and a language group cannot CLAIM culture. The culture of Africa and Africans is too ancient, spans too many language groups, cultures and populations to be SOLELY identified with "Berbers", which is just ONE relatively recent linguistic grouping that occupies a relatively small part of Northern Africa.
Posts: 8896 | Registered: May 2005
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Yonis, there are maany African groups whose paternal lineages are not African. The Amhara have the Israelite J Y chromosome. The northern Sudanese have the Ishmaelite J Y chromosome. The Haratine have the Amazigh E3b Y chromosome.
And some African American men have the R1b y chromosome which is found in Western Europeans and Sephardic Jews. It's not pride. It's history. It's just the way it is.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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Flores C, Maca-Meyer N, Larruga JM, Cabrera VM, Karadsheh N, Gonzalez AM. Departamento de Genetica, Facultad de Biologia, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 Tenerife, Spain.
A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations.Cerny V, Hajek M, Bromova M, Cmejla R, Diallo I, Brdicka R.
Department of Anthropology and Environment, Institute of Archeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, Prague.
Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total). As in African hunter-gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) and some populations from central Tunisia (Kesra and Zriba), three of the Fulani nomad samples do not reveal significant negative values of Fu's selective neutrality test. The multidimensional scaling of FST genetic distances of related sub-Saharan populations and the analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) show clear and close relationships between all pairs of the four Fulani nomad samples, irrespective of their geographic origin. The only group of nomadic Fulani that manifests some similarities with geographically related agricultural populations (from Guinea-Bissau and Nigeria) comes from Tcheboua in northern Cameroon
Before you say these mtDNAs are Berber. Remember Berber tribes adopted Judaism.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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Yeah but who cares? African history, culture and tradition is OLDER than any tradition of Berbers speakers and therefore they cannot CLAIM it. The "Berbers" are not the MOTHERS of African culture, they are PART of African history and culture. To put MODERN Berber speakers as the IMPETUS behind the development of culture, language and civilization in Africa going back tens of thousands of years is an absolutely ridiculous concept, period, as the Berber language is only 3,000 years old at most.
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Most Fulbe are ordianry Black people as the observers over the centuries have written down. But, there is a minority of families which intermingled with Israelites moving south and have influenced the whole of the Fuutas.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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And again so what? Why is any miniscule Jewish ancestry among a sea of black Africans so important? Jewish religion and culture is NOT the basis of Saharan/Sahelian culture, language or people. Therefore, who CARES about the presence of a small amount of POSSIBLE Jewish blood? Dont you see, African history does not START with Jewish migrations to Africa and therefore cannot be UNDERSTOOD by looking at such migrations.
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Flores C, Maca-Meyer N, Larruga JM, Cabrera VM, Karadsheh N, Gonzalez AM. Departamento de Genetica, Facultad de Biologia, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 Tenerife, Spain.
A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations.
Okay? Where is the marker of "Jewish infusion" in Fulani/Peuls? I hope you realize that the R1*-M173 found in the Jordanian [not the Peuls/Fulani mind you, who were the subject of the question] sample, as the piece rightfully notes, is relatively rare outside of N. Cameroon. That aside and other than African ancestry as denoted by E-M215 (E3b3 in this case) lineages in the Jordanian sample, how instructive is this piece towards the question I posed to you?
quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow:
MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations.Cerny V, Hajek M, Bromova M, Cmejla R, Diallo I, Brdicka R.
Department of Anthropology and Environment, Institute of Archeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, Prague.
Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total). As in African hunter-gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) and some populations from central Tunisia (Kesra and Zriba), three of the Fulani nomad samples do not reveal significant negative values of Fu's selective neutrality test. The multidimensional scaling of FST genetic distances of related sub-Saharan populations and the analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) show clear and close relationships between all pairs of the four Fulani nomad samples, irrespective of their geographic origin. The only group of nomadic Fulani that manifests some similarities with geographically related agricultural populations (from Guinea-Bissau and Nigeria) comes from Tcheboua in northern Cameroon
Before you say these mtDNAs are Berber. Remember Berber tribes adopted Judaism.
Well, you must have recognized that Fulani maternal gene pool is overwhelming of African extractions. And you guessed it right; it is more likely that the very small percentage of those with Eurasian TMRCAs comes from historic interactions with the more northerly "Berber" speaking groups, from coastal northwest Africa, who are known to have relatively high frequencies of Eurasion maternal lineages [in contrast to their paternal ones]. Apparently not all "Berbers" had adopted Judaism, so that would be a generalization.
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quote:Originally posted by yazid904: I basically agree but my immediate reality is that it is foolish for any African American to claim Egyptian heritage because of the Africanity of continent? Just me! It like some Mississppi and Alabama African Americans all of a sudden going to Israel and proclaiming themselves the original Israelites!
For your information the Hebrew Isrealites did this in the 1960's. Most of these Afro-Americans live in Demona, Israel.
The Berbers were Jewish/Israelite pagans and lost that religion over time. Fuuta Toro in Senegal is same as the land of Tekrour. The main Fulani homeland in West Africa. The Tor in Tor means the Sinai Peninsula. This is central to Fulani identity.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow: Mystery Solver,
The Berbers were Jewish/Israelite pagans and lost that religion over time. Fuuta Toro in Senegal is same as the land of Tekrour. The main Fulani homeland in West Africa. The Tor in Tor means the Sinai Peninsula. This is central to Fulani identity.
I don't question some "Berber"-speakers did so, but I do fail to see how this addresses my point about your generalization: 1)Do you have objective corroboration to the idea that "Berbers" were generally "Jewish" followers?
2)How does this support you in the "definite Jewish" ancestry of Fulanis?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Good grief, learn to translate, and learn to recognize a largely English speaking forum when you come across one. Most of all, learn to back up your claims. You still haven't shown sqwat to back up your claim that "Berbers" were supposedly generally "Jewish" or what happened to the 'lost' tribes of the definite "Jewish" ancestors of the Fulani.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Why can't it be accepted that West Africans share a common origin with some Egyptians via the Sahara??
This is Keita's position based on the physical evidence. I concur with it.
Bottom line is physical anthropology, genetics, and archaeology, support shared origins from the Sahara. NON of these disciplines support any Egyptian mass exodus from the Nile Valley to West Africa!
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Good grief, learn to translate, and learn to recognize a largely English speaking forum when you come across one. Most of all, learn to back up your claims. You still haven't shown sqwat to back up your claim that "Berbers" were supposedly generally "Jewish" or what happened to the 'lost' tribes of the definite "Jewish" ancestors of the Fulani.
Ps - Soutenez vos revendications ou gardez bouche cousue!
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