posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
To theGaul

You have not presented, nor is there, evidence the
Fulani people are historic migrants from East Africa
in general and ancient Egypt in particular.

That all people originate from East Africa in very
remote times is a given.

---

• PMS style rantings of non-black, non-African, just simply a "non" that calls itself "Explorer", aka the "Def" one aside, there is no confirmed origin point to date of Fulani language (Halpulaar/Fulfuulde), and the classification of the "Atlantic branch" in Niger-Congo still SPECULATIVE to this date on whether it needs a new tree or should stand alone. Just as Ijoid, Dogon, and Kru in their current sub-classifications, and Songhai (Djerma/Zarma) in Nilo-Saharan. New classifications have been suggested in the past(by non-Africans), such as "Western South Central Niger-Congo" WSCNC ...

• Along those same lines, the noun classes between the so-called "Atlantic" branch of Niger Congo and the Talodi, Laro, and Heiban of the Kordofanian branch (spoken in PRESENT DAY Sudan/Noba Hills) are shared . This is not the case with any other language under the Niger-Congo tree. Why the commonalities with languages spoken in/near the Noba Hills of Sudan of all places? Curious.

• The certain ma'at head feather and tunic displayed on AE temple walls eerily recall that of those worn by Woodaabi in Niger, to which Diop calls the "peul" type.

• The similarities between AE glyphs/Mdu Ntr provided by Diop, compared to Wolof words, which is related to Halpulaar, has not been proven false, nor has remotely been refuted, and hardly even addressed in this thread.

• The "Fishing God" cave paintings in Tassili, discovered by Budge, et al., and consequesntly discovered on AE temple walls in dynastic Egypt, whether related to present day Fulani or not (though, according to Ba, Fulani were present in Tassili), has not yet been proven a fraud, therefore, an obvious connection and cannot yet be disregarded as "non proto-Fulani".

Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
alTakruri

I defer to you because these are your people, So you know better then most how nomadic is the Fulani people. It am not trying to get people upset over these views, I just would rather read defintive proof of this. My mind can be easily changed when it's dealing with Truth.

Peace

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
To theGaul

You have not presented, nor is there, evidence the
Fulani people are historic migrants from East Africa
in general and ancient Egypt in particular.

That all people originate from East Africa in very
remote times is a given.

---

...and you have not presented evidence that the Fulani are NOT historic migrants from eastern Africa or that there is evidence that they were NOT components of the population of ancient Kemet!

Your mistaken leap...from the pan into the fire.
It seems to me, you would have had a greater chance of denying the historical migrations of certain African peoples had you stayed with the Wolof; they exist primarily today in Senegal - rather you've chosen the Fulani who occupy an area in Africa that is practically twice as wide as the United States! The Fulani, all the way from Senegal to Somalia!...

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

OK King

The links are fixed now. Jamtan is
the source for 'Teckruri' in Somalia.

How far is it from Eritrea to the
Somali Peninsula? 40 miles maybe?

Guidance

---

I can imagine a possible presence in Eritrea, as being part of the same dispersal that resulted in the Fula ending up in Sudan, but still for clarity, certain questions come to mind.

The group invoked in the link, what are the specific traits -- grammar & lexical -- that confirm their language to be Fula?

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Alain Anselin and Lydia Homburger using linguistics allow us to date the relationship between Egyptians and Peul. The linguistic evidence indicates that by the 12th Dynasty the Peul and Egyptians were in intimate contact.

References:

Alain Anselin, La Question Peul, (Paris: Karthala, 1981) pp.18-19.

.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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The true highlight, however, was Sefar. Little is written about the city. Lhote does not provide many details, except a map, showing its extent, as well as the presence of several streets and avenues, tumuli, tombs and something that he calls the “esplanade of the Great Fishing God”. Lhote named the character as he seemed to be carrying fish. But a closer inspection of the photograph that successive expeditions have taken, suggests what Zitman had always felt could be the truth: rather than a “fishing god”, was this character not depicted in a pose that the ancient Egyptians knew as “smiting the enemy”? It was a pose that was used by the Pharaohs to display their mastery over the forces of chaos .

---

quote:

---

The “Great Fishing God” of Sefar is thus potential evidence that there is indeed a link between Egypt and the Tassili. Some of the rock paintings also show boats, such as at Sefar and Aouanrhet. These depictions are very similar if not identical to what was discovered by the likes of Toby Wilkinson in similar sites and similar rock paintings in the region between the Nile and the Red Sea. He dated these paintings to the 5th millennium BC, which overlaps with the paintings of the Tassili. Like the Tassili, the desert area where Wilkinson uncovered these paintings was then verdant grassland. Like the Tassili, these Egyptian paintings are a complex mixture of motifs, depicting crocodiles, hippos and boats from the Nile alongside ostriches and giraffes from the savannah, and suffused with cattle imagery and the religious symbolism that would characterize classical Egyptian art . This should by now sound familiar... For Wilkinson, these rock paintings show that pre-Pharaonic Egyptians were not settled flood-plain farmers, but semi-nomadic herders who drove their cattle in between the lush riverbanks and the drier grasslands

---

quote:

---

For a “semi-nomadic people”, it is by no means a long stretch of the imagination to argue that they trekked throughout the savannah, from east to west and backwards . And thus, in Pre-dynastic Egypt, Egypt and the Tassili were more than likely “one” . So there is an Egyptian connection, but rather than arguing for a connection around 1200 BC, based on the fake paintings Lhote fell for, the connection can actually be found in predynastic Egypt .

---

quote:

---

Both Wilkinson and Zitman argue for a radical reinterpretation of the origins of ancient Egypt. For Wilkinson, the rock paintings in southern Egypt provide proof that it is there that we should look for the “Genesis of the Pharaohs” (the title of his book). For Zitman, the origin of ancient Egypt can be found in a culture and area that stretches into the Tassili, where there is the pose painted on a cliff face in Sefar that would later adorn the front walls of several Egyptian temples . And that cannot be a coincidence. Furthermore, it also coincides with what Lhote wrote: “The most common profile suggested that of Ethiopians, and it was almost certainly from the east that these great waves of pastoralist immigrants came who invaded not only the Tassili but much of the Sahara.”

---

Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

Of the Egyptian origin of Fulani
A book of Aboubacry Moussa Lam
€ 29.00!
(only 29 Euros in France! That's only $41.11 and Amazon wants what??)



Explorers, colonial and Africanist of all persuasions have been much discussed on the Fulani. The strange object was a long walk between Annam and Canada by the most eccentric, the Nile Valley and the Sahara with the most serious. Jewish, Bohemian, the Fulani Lascar ... Its geographic and ethnic origins have a passion for the most credible experts to simple amateurs of exoticism. .

Yet the relationship of filiation established by the enigmatic Fut / Ful and Cham by various Judeo-Christian, was an indication of the Egyptian origin of Fulani.

Using data mainly Egyptology and ethnography, this work confirms, on the basis of consistent and accurate result, the veracity of the theory of Nilotic origin (specifically Egyptian) of the Fulani. It also illuminates a new light the problem of membership of the Pulaar and the relations between both controversial and Fulbe Haal-Pulaar it.

another translated French page on the Fulani origins

http://mauritanie2007.unblog.fr/lorigine-des-peulhs/

The origin of the Fulani people raised against many verses, many scholars of the colonial period they wanted to believe in non-African origin of this people. Thus, for them, Peuls could be causing the white Semites came civilize Africa. There are also fanciful theories, those of: Lelièvre: the Fulani who were descendants of the Gauls' Captain Figeac: Who were the Peuls Pelasgi. M. Delafosse, for whom the Jewish Peuls were Syrians. (Was not the first to think so, you can also cited: Winterbottom, Matthews, Grimal of Guiraudon ..), thesis to be considered as a novel by Tauxier in its book history and M'urs Peuls "Cheikh Anta Diop for the Egyptian origin of the Fulani is no doubt. By their name and totemic Ka Bah and matriarchy, the Peuls show their connection to Egypt. Many Pharaohs would come from the people born of interbreeding with foreigners from the Delta and official contacts of the eighteenth and nineteenth dynasties with foreign (white Semites). Thus, according to him, "the grandfather of Ramses II, Ramses I, was a tank officer descendant of freed foreign Delta ( ') co-opted by Horemheb to succeed him on the throne of Egypt. Seti I, his son, had married a princess of royal blood to legitimize his power and to gain acceptance of the people, associations early in power who played Rameses II legitimacy through his mother 'Sethi I and Ramses II officially represent this type Fulani. The nomadic Fulani of sporadic only a relatively recent phenomenon, dating back to the breakup of the Egyptian Old Kingdom and the breakup of his aristocracy by Cambyses. To return to matriarchy Fulani, it was before the Islamization of the people at the base of the social system, women are central to any affiliation (donation, disease, etc.). As for the former Egyptian inherits not one of his father, but his maternal uncle. If for a long time many researchers viewed this matriarchy as an anomaly, we find from the work of Cheikh Anta Diop and ethnologist Marguerite Dupire, because through the links they forged between the Fulani and the ancient Egyptians.

quote:

---

"Insofar as the Fulani are of Egyptian origin, they were African sedentary farmers practicing and matriarchy. Following the breakup of the ancient Egyptian society (loss of sovereignty) they had to emigrate rather late with their herds of cattle. By force of circumstances, they would be gone from sedentary life to nomadic life. But while we understand the matriarchy of the first time continues to address social relations, especially since it is probably unfair to talk of an absolute nomadic Fulani. In fact, it is semi-nomadic. "(See: Cheikh Anta Diop: The Cultural Unity of Black Africa.)

Today, despite a strong presence of Islam among the Fulani, there are still confirming affiliation uterine negro membership of the African people.

We can therefore say that the Fulani would be Negroes who are mixed with white elements from abroad, in an Egyptian black population, there is also a linguistic link between the ancient Egyptian and Pulaar: Ankh magazine N ° 12 / 13 tells us: the language of the pharaohs of Egypt is reflected in the titles and names Peuls: Fari, Labbe, Gata. Terminology land of Egypt (= datt State Farm = rmnyt) retains the same meaning in contemporary Pulaar. The hieroglyphic signs y and X d3tt complete up to prove that the Egyptian state was agrarian and urban 'The agricultural implements used by the Fulani (hoe, big and small, ax, fork) also have an Egyptian origin. One could say the same tools of fishing, hunting, pastoral sticks, etc.. ; Clothing is no exception: the clothes and hairstyles in their diversity are among the Fulani before islamization. "

---

Some proverbs and maxims Peuls:

Ko bi Yumma vi'atma hunukoma lubi Ina - This is the son of your mother tell you that your mouth stinks (only a true friend of your t'avertira defects)

Ina yitere Yaha Yaha do Yida do, so do koi gal Yahata Yida, 'Abad. - The eye goes where it does not, but the foot does not go where it does not, never. (si je ne t'aime pas, I will see you when I meet you, but I do not come with you)

Ber "Wana hôfûru saka Höfe - The heart is not a knee to be bent

Fayia, Fodi, ko Heire fali - fat, thin, no matter at heart?

Gido KB Dattu Yida Yidi, ngasabu its dum yo Dattu vil Yidi ko, ko jidno Yida, 'Let Ayma-loving one who loves what he likes, because if you told him as he leaves what he loves he loves what he loved, and you will hate.

In conclusion the origin of the Fulani is linked to Egypt, they were not white, but black in color, language, and culture.

Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Wally were nomes associated with these gods?

.

---

quote:

---

These Anu were agricultural people, raising cattle on a large scale along the Nile, shutting themselves up in walled cities for defensive purposes. To this people we can attribute, without fear of error, the most ancient Egyptian books, The Book of the Dead and the Texts of the Pyramids, consequently, all the myths or religious teachings. I would add almost all the philosophical systems then known and still called Egyptian. They evidently knew the crafts necessary for any civilization and were familiar with the tools those trades required. They knew how to use metals, at least elementary metals. They made the earliest attempts at writing, for the whole Egyptian tradition attributes this art to Thoth, the great Hermes an Anu like Osiris, who is called Onian in Chapter XV of The Book of the Dead and in the Texts of the Pyramids. Certainly the people already knew the principal arts; it left proof of this in the architecture of the tombs at Abydos, especially the tomb of Osiris and in those sepulchers objects have been found bearing unmistakable stamp of their origin, such as carved ivory, or a little head of a Nubian girl found in a tomb near that of Osiris, or the small wooden or ivory receptacles in the form of a feline head--all documents published in the first volumn of my Fouilles d'Abydos.

---

Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:
For those that didn't read the link when first posted, more evidence from the Tassili area (including Sefar), which apparently included settlements over a period of time, in different areas, not all during the LSA or some distant time before Dynastic Egypt, some of which overlapping pre-DE:

quote:

---

The true highlight, however, was Sefar. Little is written about the city. Lhote does not provide many details, except a map, showing its extent, as well as the presence of several streets and avenues, tumuli, tombs and something that he calls the “esplanade of the Great Fishing God”. Lhote named the character as he seemed to be carrying fish. But a closer inspection of the photograph that successive expeditions have taken, suggests what Zitman had always felt could be the truth: rather than a “fishing god”, was this character not depicted in a pose that the ancient Egyptians knew as “smiting the enemy”? It was a pose that was used by the Pharaohs to display their mastery over the forces of chaos .

---

quote:

---

The “Great Fishing God” of Sefar is thus potential evidence that there is indeed a link between Egypt and the Tassili. Some of the rock paintings also show boats, such as at Sefar and Aouanrhet. These depictions are very similar if not identical to what was discovered by the likes of Toby Wilkinson in similar sites and similar rock paintings in the region between the Nile and the Red Sea. He dated these paintings to the 5th millennium BC, which overlaps with the paintings of the Tassili. Like the Tassili, the desert area where Wilkinson uncovered these paintings was then verdant grassland. Like the Tassili, these Egyptian paintings are a complex mixture of motifs, depicting crocodiles, hippos and boats from the Nile alongside ostriches and giraffes from the savannah, and suffused with cattle imagery and the religious symbolism that would characterize classical Egyptian art . This should by now sound familiar... For Wilkinson, these rock paintings show that pre-Pharaonic Egyptians were not settled flood-plain farmers, but semi-nomadic herders who drove their cattle in between the lush riverbanks and the drier grasslands

---

quote:

---

For a “semi-nomadic people”, it is by no means a long stretch of the imagination to argue that they trekked throughout the savannah, from east to west and backwards . And thus, in Pre-dynastic Egypt, Egypt and the Tassili were more than likely “one” . So there is an Egyptian connection, but rather than arguing for a connection around 1200 BC, based on the fake paintings Lhote fell for, the connection can actually be found in predynastic Egypt .

---

quote:

---

Both Wilkinson and Zitman argue for a radical reinterpretation of the origins of ancient Egypt. For Wilkinson, the rock paintings in southern Egypt provide proof that it is there that we should look for the “Genesis of the Pharaohs” (the title of his book). For Zitman, the origin of ancient Egypt can be found in a culture and area that stretches into the Tassili, where there is the pose painted on a cliff face in Sefar that would later adorn the front walls of several Egyptian temples . And that cannot be a coincidence. Furthermore, it also coincides with what Lhote wrote: “The most common profile suggested that of Ethiopians, and it was almost certainly from the east that these great waves of pastoralist immigrants came who invaded not only the Tassili but much of the Sahara.”

---

The fake paintings, according to this, was not done by Lohte, but as a prank on him by one of his team members, for which was revealed and since has been removed.

As for acquiring Lam's book, seems it going to take some overseas connections, time, and money.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Not at all impressive.

Are you merely taking sounds and using Egyptian
phonology to fabricate these ethnies' supposedly
being known to the Romitu?

Where are the in context references to any of these
ethnies as actual peoples living in or in contact with
KM.t?

What you've produced here is little better than
that of those who derive the Ashanti from biblical
Hebrew because:
* Ashan (Smoke) was a town there and
* ti supposedly means 'people of';
thus the Ashanti ran all the way to West Africa from Judah.

---

Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

Serer
Serer - "he who fixes the limits of the temples"
King Amenemhet-Serer

Lebou (The Lebou are primarily a fishing community; living on the Cap-Vert peninsula; speak Wolof.)
Lebou - "people who live by the river bank"; ie, fishermen

Benin
Benen - a virile god of copulation & regeneration; a form of Menu
>>>>>>>>> Oba - "Captain, Director"
a) Oba n Benen
b) Oba of Benin
...

---

Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Not at all impressive.

Are you merely taking sounds and using Egyptian
phonology to fabricate these ethnies' supposedly
being known to the Romitu?

Where are the in context references to any of these
ethnies as actual peoples living in or in contact with
KM.t?

What you've produced here is little better than
that of those who derive the Ashanti from biblical
Hebrew because:
* Ashan (Smoke) was a town there and
* ti supposedly means 'people of';
thus the Ashanti ran all the way to West Africa from Judah.

---

Your stubborn intransigence on a point on which you're seriously losing, is baffling yet at the same time is serving to prove our own point:
Let me present you with two concrete, objective facts:

Sen-Sen is a type of breath freshener originally marketed as a "breath perfume" in the late nineteenth century

Now today, if we open Budge's dictionary to page 675 we find the following:
SenSen - to breath
SenSen - to have a bad smell, odor

Now this isn't something fanciful or cobbled together, but real objective truth on the etymology of that product name...

And you dare compare the words from that same dictionary with a cobbled together phrase of "Ashan" + "ti" with a complete word such as "Tutsi" "Tutsi" is a word, just as "cabinet" is a word.

I could have easily expounded on these words and given them in expressions, but you would have more excuses for denial.
The following, while not necessarily found in a scroll, would most certainly have occurred in everyday speech:
Wa Tutsi - "one collection of the gods"

Efante - Eshante - a variation of speech, which we have in Kush, Ekush, Thaosh, Ethaosh

Oba n Benen - was demonstrated, and means "Captain of Benen"; you know, like "Oba n Wos" -"Captain of Wos (Thebes)"

You are far too intelligent of a person to have missed the obviousness of the fact that all of these names were of gods and nobility. None of them were about someone living in a smoking town.

You know this is the same ideology as those previous example excerpts I presented where the commentators would lump the scientific researches of C.A. Diop on Fulani origins in with the writings of a French idiot who maintained that the Fulani were descended from the Gauls; as being fanciful. I mean, doesn't everybody imagine themselves to be descended from the Pharaohs and the 'magical kingdom.' Even the indigenous people, whose ancestors have been there for thousands of years are often ridiculed with their'fanciful' pretensions of descent from Pharaonic Egypt.
The truth is objective, and time and truth are inseparable.
The Fulani once resided in Kemet and the period in which they probably left is being narrowed down to around the 12th dynasty... much thanks to Dr. Winters for pointing this out to us.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Unlike you, I'm not trying to win over followers
to an idealogy.

---

Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

For Lydia (sic, her name is Lilias) Homburger
connections between Pulaar and 12th dynasty
Egyptian are limited.

Without doubt we must avoid deducing that Peuhl
speak Egyptian, especially 12th Dynasty Egyptian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
"Pour Lydia Homburger,les affinities du pular avec l’egyptien de la XII dynastie seraient etroites. Il faudra sans doute eviter d’en deduire que Peul parle egytien et que cet egyptien est celui de la XII dynastie. "

Alain Anselin, La Question Peule, pg.19.

It was doing the 12th Dynasty that the Fulani were probably in Egypt.


.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
The Fulani once resided in Kemet and the period in which they probably left is being narrowed down to around the 12th dynasty... much thanks to Dr. Winters for pointing this out to us.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

• Il faudra* sans doute eviter d'en**
  
  it [will be] necessary without doubt to avoid from it
  
  sans deduire que Peul parle egyptien
  
  without deducing that Peul speak Egyptian
  
  
  et que cet egyptien est celui
  
  and that this Egyptian is this
  
  de la 12th dynastie.
  
  of the 12th Dynastie.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

For Lydia [sic, her name is Lilias] Homburger
connections between Pulaar and 12th dynasty
Egyptian are limited.

Without doubt we must avoid deducing that Peuhl
speak Egyptian, especially 12th Dynasty Egyptian.

---

quote:

---

"Pour Lydia Homburger,
les affinities du pular avec l’egyptien de la XII dynastie
seraient etroites.

Il faudra sans doute eviter d’en deduire que Peul
parle egytien et que cet egyptien est celui de la XII dynastie. "

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I had native French speaker, who translates as her
profession, do the work for me. So there was no
guess work or awkward unnatural sentence pattern
as results from translator software like BabelFish.

quote:

---

For Lydia [sic, her name is Lilias] Homburger
connections between Pulaar and 12th dynasty
Egyptian are limited.

Without doubt we must avoid deducing that Peuhl
speak Egyptian, especially 12th Dynasty Egyptian.

---

quote:

---

"Pour Lydia Homburger,
les affinities du pular avec l’egyptien de la XII dynastie
seraient etroites.

Il faudra sans doute eviter d’en deduire que Peul
parle egytien et que cet egyptien est celui de la XII dynastie. "

---

I invite alternate translations from native French speakers.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

alTakruri wrote:

Are you playing a game and keeping points? Get
serious man we're talking history and ethnology
not personal matters of mending your self-esteem.
All your shuck and jive fails to show any current day
West African ethny being either known in Ancient
Egypt or originating in Ancient Egypt.

I don't share your desire, need, or wish to "imagine
themselves to be descended from the Pharaohs and
the 'magical kingdom.'" I have heritage of my own.

Grandstanding aside, if you even had the thinnest
sliver of primary documentation from an Ancient
Egyptian text naming any West African group you
would have provided it.

Unlike you, I'm not trying to win over followers
to an idealogy. I'm presenting what I know and
so far quite successfully disputing what, until
proven otherwise, enthusiastic wishful thinking
cannot back up with valid documentation.


I await presentation of primary Ancient Egyptian
textual documentation describing contact with or
origination of any of the west or south African
ethnies you imagine.

But in light of your above quoted confession I have
to reassess if I can take you seriously on a scholarly
level when it comes to ethnology anymore since your
motivation is highly suspect.

---

Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
What is the point of trying to link west Africans to Egypt.

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Originally posted by Wally:
I mean, doesn't everybody imagine themselves to
be descended from the Pharaohs and the 'magical
kingdom.'

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB] Since the rock art definitely associated with
Fulani culture is in fact from the LSA any
corespondance with ancient Egypt is precluded.

Harping on one piece from Sefar is disengenius
as that piece is not indicative of Fulani culture
and so bears no relevance to Fulani origins in KM.t

I would remind once again that SE Algeria is not
Egypt. Nothing that was bolded in the post I now
respond to shows a date contemporaneous to Ancient
Egypt nor transposition from the Nile Valley to the
Tassili massif.

The supplied quotes, if anything, tend to show quite
the reverse, that the Tassili preceded Ancient Egypt
and the smiter motif first appeared in Sefar before
later showing up in Egypt.

This is consistent with what we know of the middle
and lower Nile Valley absorbing immigrants from the
drying Green Sahara as well as those moving downstream
from Sudan.

Instead of grasping for straws that make not even
a weak case for demic transfer from the Nile
Valley to SE Algeria (or where ever) in historic
times, please succinctly propose an exact date
and precise place of origin for your Fulani in
Egypt.

Without clarifying date place and route there's
no reason to continue this discussion because no
conclusion can be drawn from "anything goes evidence."

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Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Yonis2:

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Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

Serer
Serer - "he who fixes the limits of the temples"
King Amenemhet-Serer

Lebou (The Lebou are primarily a fishing community; living on the Cap-Vert peninsula; speak Wolof.)
Lebou - "people who live by the river bank"; ie, fishermen

Benin
Benen - a virile god of copulation & regeneration; a form of Menu
>>>>>>>>> Oba - "Captain, Director"
a) Oba n Benen
b) Oba of Benin
...

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Stop making up nonsense, those ethnicities did not exist 2000-5000 years ago, let alone known by the Egyptians. You are constructing a false reality, can't see how any normal person could believe in the pseudo-science you constantly spew here.

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Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by KING:
Wow People are Making Egypt out to be where all Africans come from.

What is the point of trying to link west Africans to Egypt. I have NEVER heard that the Egyptians knew the West African groups mentioned.

Peace

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by KING:
Wow People are Making Egypt out to be where all Africans come from.

What is the point of trying to link west Africans to Egypt. I have NEVER heard that the Egyptians knew the West African groups mentioned.

Peace

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Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
To theGaul

Did you forget something? Let me repeat.

Instead of grasping for straws that make not even
a weak case for demic transfer from the Nile
Valley to SE Algeria (or where ever) in historic
times, please succinctly propose an exact date
and precise place of origin for your Fulani in
Egypt.

Without clarifying date place and route there's
no reason to continue this discussion because no
conclusion can be drawn from "anything goes evidence."

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Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Yonis

As a continental African, you baffle me with this one. Do you honestly think the names Wally has proposed as god names in Mdu Ntr properly means that the coinciding names of MODERN West African ethnies must have been present in AE, with those exact same names ans ethnies in AE?

Just to make sure you understand this, let's clarify.

Zulu does not literally mean "ethnic group currently residing East/Southeast modern day South Africa". Surely you know this? Zulu means literally "Heaven(s)". KwaZulu means "place of heaven" (roughly translated to English). Now, if we happen to find a glyph in Mdu Ntr that also translates into "isiZulu" and also means "Heavens", does it literally mean there was a group in AE dressed in Ox sheaths and leopard head bands?

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Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Stop making up nonsense, those ethnicities did not exist 2000-5000 years ago, let alone known by the Egyptians. You are constructing a false reality, can't see how any normal person could believe in the pseudo-science you constantly spew here.

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You just can't get angry at an idiotic response such as this, instead you have to laugh.


Unable to refute, deny, or even to digest information presented - which the individual obviously feels threatened by - it becomes necessary to use the only tactic left - character assassination; "making up nonsense", "constructing a false reality", " can't see how any normal person could believe in the pseudo-science you constantly spew here"

Now here is what this
idiotic response is attempting to get folks to believe:

a) The Mdu Ntr words Tutsi, Akan, Akaniu, Fante, Hosa, Ourbaiu, Ouruba, Serer, Amenemhet(the)Serer, Lebou, Benen, Oba are something which I made up, I fabricated these words, that, or I somehow was able to warp time, went back and induced Budge to include them in his dictionary - to aid in my fabrication...

a1) Any intelligent person would simply open the dictionary, of which I have provided online for those who use this forum,
http://cid-6075ca909f8a8375.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Ancient%20Egypt/Hieroglyphic%20Dictionary

look up the words to confirm and verify the information put in front of them. That is what any normal person would do. Fortunately, the majority of folks here are normal...

Feigned "mis-understanding"
The individual here is more likely pretending to misunderstand something that is quite simple and straightforward rather than merely being "mentally challenged."
anyone can understand the following examples that have been put forward here:

a) the Mdu Ntr word "sensen" which means bad breath is obviously the parent word for the modern day breath freshener "SenSen"

b) the Mdu Ntr word "Baraka" (Ba+Ra+Ka; blessing, gift) is clearly the progenitor of the Islamic; Judaic; Swahili words "Barak, Baraka..."

c) the occurrence of a name, like "Cheikh"(Sheikh) in Cheikh Anta Diop, would infer an Islamic influence in Senegal...and guess what...

But it is in the examples of Kemet where the interpretive brain becomes addled; all common sense and observations being hurled out of the window. The simple and undeniable fact that such Mdu Ntr religious or noble terms such as Tutsi, Akan, Akaniu, Fante, Hosa, Ourbaiu, Ouruba, Serer, Lebou, Benen, Oba are not intelligently processed. The simple fact that "Akan" is the name of a Kememou god and not the name of an ethnic group living in Kemet is a deliberate mis-understanding in order to detract from a simple flow of logic:

a) is it a co-incidence then that there is also an Akan people in West Africa; what other similarities are there between these two cultures; some Akan kings' pre-names were "Amon", the Akan, like the Kememou are matriarchal, don't/didn't the Akan practice mummification? - and more questions and more answers, until the puzzle is complete.

...

Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Wally wrote:
a) is it a co-incidence then that there is also an Akan people in West Africa;

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Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Yonis2:

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Wally wrote:
a) is it a co-incidence then that there is also an Akan people in West Africa;

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Yes, its nothing else than a coincidence actually. Furthermore we don't know if they even had the term "Akan", Egyptian "Kn" could easily have been the syllables "Ahkono","kuna", "Okna" etc, etc. The vowels in your "Akan" are inserted by modern non-Ancient Egyptian scholars for their conviniency at work.

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Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Yonis

With all due respect, you are simplifying this beyond the scope of reason and scholarship. There is much more to reading hieroglyphs than simply inserting vowels however you see fit. I agree that pronunciations might be different, but thats besides the point.

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How do you explain "Atlantic" Niger-Congo languages that still to this day share noun classes with certain Niger-Kordofanian languages spoken in present day Sudan?

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Just take the information as it stands and make rational judgements without going to the moon, i.e. if Fulani were present in Tassili, and during that time frame the Nile Valley and the rest of the Sahara were "one" with obvious cultural diffusions/affinities between all areas in between, then it's natural to infer that the origin of Fulani could have been in either place or some point in between.

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Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Yonis2:
Do you disagree that Egyptian Hieroglyphs have no vowels which inturn makes us clueless of how their words and everyday conversation sounded like?

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What does this got to do with my post and the one by wally which i was initially responding to? Egyptic was neither Niger-congo or Niger kordofian so i don't see the relevency.

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I haven't said anything about the Fulani, my knowledge of this people is limited, i know nothing about their geographical migrations or their origin. I just know that they don't live in Eritrea numbering 2 million under the ethnic name "Tekruri", and i also know that their is no ethnic group in Somalia that goes by the name "Techruri", that's it.

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Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Gaul wrote:
This was simply to show that you also are in no position to make static claims on other groups in West Africa, and definetly not enough to dumb down what was posted in regards to Mdu Ntr god names that, apprently, according to Wally, coincide with current ethnies in West Africa. Just simply take the information without misunderstanding it and make rational judgements

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Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Now if you pay careful attention, I will show you how to read the above example, and in a general sense, how to find words in Budge's dictionary:

a) the first thing to note is that the word is present in modern Sahaidic Coptic Egyptian, which means we don't have to guess the proper spelling and pronunciation of the word: touwt, thouwt or its true meaning(s).

b) the value of Budge's dictionary, as opposed to any other, is its sheer comprehensiveness; for starting at the top we have the following permutations of this word - note also that the word's usage is shown by its determinative, either 1) royal image, statue,or mummy 2) a man eating, drinking, speaking, or whatever is done by the mouth 3) the Ntru; gods, ancestors :

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tut, tut, tut, tut, tuti, tutu, tutu, titutu, (caus.) stut, tut(nteru);the assembled gods...and tutsi "all of them"; the letters following "tut" are the door-bolt which is an "s" and the double back-slashes which is the letter "i"...tutsi

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The present day Coptic equivalent would be Touwtsi (Toh.oot.see)

PS: the 'quail-chick' and the 'rope spiral' are both vowels, both represents "U" or "W" depending on their positions in a word
...we learned in second-grade that the vowels were "a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes w; second grade we learned this...

Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Gaul:

Basically, you want glyphs in a temple in Abu Simbel that explicity say..."Fulani waz here". Gotcha.

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I think it's a bit redundant on your part to conveniently overlook much of what has been posted

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and simply go in a circle by refuting in the exact same way without providing anything new

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to back up what you believe, as it is the consensus idea that the true origin of Fulani is not known, and one of the origin points, according to many including Fulani/Wolof/West African scholars, is the Nile Valley.

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Secondly, in what I posted about the settlements around the Tassili area, clearly states 5000 BC as an overlapping point with pre-dynastic NV rock art in southern Egypt, and the "smiting of enemies" rock art painting is clearly similar to Dynastic Egypt. Perhaps you missed this?

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According to what you believe, you clearly acknowledge the presense of Fulani or proto-Fulani in SE Algeria in the LSA (no exact time given)

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Where did they go? Did they build a 40 ft. wall and isolate themselves from these other groups that obviously inhabited Tassili? Did they pull a Jesus move and disappear from Tassili in the LSA, only to suddenly re-appear as Fulani in 400 A.D. Morroco?

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You know what they say? Beliefs are like....everybody has one. Especially on this topic.

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This is about Fulani being linked to Egypt, and possible demic diffusion of certain traits, such as language, religiosity, and certain other aspects of culture sharing affinites with others in West Africa.

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Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

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Originally posted by Yonis2:

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Yonis

As a continental African, you baffle me with this one. Do you honestly think the names Wally has proposed as god names in Mdu Ntr properly means that the coinciding names of MODERN West African ethnies must have been present in AE, with those exact same names ans ethnies in AE?

Just to make sure you understand this, let's clarify.

Zulu does not literally mean "ethnic group currently residing East/Southeast modern day South Africa". Surely you know this? Zulu means literally "Heaven(s)". KwaZulu means "place of heaven" (roughly translated to English). Now, if we happen to find a glyph in Mdu Ntr that also translates into "isiZulu" and also means "Heavens", does it literally mean there was a group in AE dressed in Ox sheaths and leopard head bands?

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Regardles what these names mean, it's highly unlikely they were known to the ancient Egyptians.
First of all most tribes/ethnicities from antiquity don't exist today as an unbroken continuation. You have people ofcourse claiming that they are this and that, like israelites and Assyrians etc, but they don't really exist. The Romans don't exist, the medians don't exist, the lydians don't exist, the hittites don't exist, neither do the cretans, spartans, kemetians, babylonians, israelites, kushites, Sabaens, phoenicians etc etc. The reason is that humans are not static, they migrate, they receive migration (even if it's in a local and regional basis), they get invaded, they invade,they adopt, they evolve, they degenerate, point being that ethnicities constantly emerge and disintegrate. So What is the chance that all these ethnicities of todays West africa existed during antiquity and all of them ( not just some, but ALL)mentioned above, happened to remain intact untill this date? Com'n, that's extremely unlikely. The same applies to languages and words, they are in constant flux.

Secondly, the glyphs of Ancient Egypt are not accuratley read, we don't know the sound of the Egyptic languages and will probably never do so. Egyptologist follow an imperfect model which works when deciphering the meaning of the hieroghlyphs but they have no clue how this sounded. This since Egyptian hieroglyphs doesn't conserve vowels.
Amenhotep for instance was not in reality named Amenhotep, his name was pronounced completly different by ancient Egyptians. These are just guess works, not even that, these are constructs by egyptologists, they have created a template for the conveniency of their work, otherwise they wouldn't progress in their field. They have no clue how the missing vowels sounded. No one alive can speak the Egyptic languages, all the words are guesswork or construct, but the template they use allows the meaning of the hieroghlyps to be understood, that's it.

Which at the end makes the endeavour of placing modern words/ethnicities and their pronounciation next to Mdu-Ntr a complete futile task.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged |