quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: If the original inhabitants of North Africa were Black, then how there any non-Black person claim that they are native and the Black elements in their modern populations are the descendants of slaves?
It is a complicated issue.
Firstly, there is a 3300 year or more history of lighter skinned people along the coasts of Northern Africa. But none of these people can be said to have spoken a "berber" language. Nobody can really say for sure where they came from or what languages or cultural characteristics they brought with them. What is clear is that these people seem to have adopted traits and customs similar to other Africans from the same area. The fact of this cultural assimilation of older African traits has made it easy for some to imply or assume that such traits originated with these lighter skinned migrants. Therefore, because of this confusion/distortion, many other traits and features of indigenous North Africans get erroneously attributed to these migrants. This especially applies to the language, where modern descendants of lighter skinned migrants to Northern Africa over the last 3 to 5,000 years have appropriated it as originating with lighter skinned peoples. Of course this is not the case, but because so much of this coastal Berber identity is tied to the legacy of ancient migrants, any and all traits in North Africa that can be tied to "Berber" takes on a "Berber" identity that is subsumed to meaning originated from coastal migrants.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: ...1530 kinship noted between Hebrew Arabic and Aramaic 1702 Ludolf notes affinity of Ethiosemitic with Mizrahh languages 1887 Muller links Egyptian Semitic Berber Cushitic and Hausa 1963 Greenberg introduces Afroasiatic to replace Hamito-Semitic name ---- Diankoff coins Afrasian a short form for Afroasiatic ---- Ehret proposed Afrasan to take Asia out of superphylum's name...
And there you have it ladies and gentle men. A short chronology of the invetion of the "Afroasian" category. All based on "suggestions" by Europeans without a lick of African in them.
The more I study Obenga's African language clssicfication works the more I am enlightened by the pin-point targets of his conclusions versus questionable, non-african classicfications by Greenberg and the rest of them.
If Ludolf, Muller, Greenberg, Diankoff and Ehret suggested theories are good enough to build on so is Obenga's. Posts: 179 | From: United States | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
The Meshwesh are about the foreignest looking of all the "ancient Libyans." There's little doubt they spoke taMAZIGHt since their ethnonym is in fact a variant of the root M-Z-GH/R.
The Meshwesh are the furthest west of the Ament.x3st peoples appearing in the records of the ancient Egyptians. Their home was west of the eastern shores of the Gulf of Syrte.
Mediterranean seafarers (as exemplified by the Shekelesh who fled their northeast Aegean home and settled Sicily) in all probability regularly visited the northeast shore of the Syrtis (Tunisia and western Libya). Perhaps, women were among other commercial items they exchanged there with the inhabitants.
Maybe that's how the Meshwesh got so "funny looking" and lighter skinned?
I'm really interested in anybody's ideas on how so many native ancient Libyans came to be so creamy colored at such a distant point in the past (and the BG4:5 s30 in Seti I's tomb is too contemporaneous to the final fall of Troy to imagine that the various Sea Peoples womenfolk were the first to cream the North African's coffee).
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posted
It is an unfortunate fact that the term "Berber" has been and continues to be used to erase the fact of continental African biological relations.
quote: The name MZGH was undoubtedly employed as a generic term by the ancestors of the modern Imushagh and their various branches, and it is they who must be considered as the modern representatives of the old Hamitic stock which was invaded by the brachycephals and xanthocroids, and which in some cases has been modified to take on a negroid form.
True, modern ethnographers won't use this type of early 20th century speech, yet we find these ideas still current, especially so among militant Amazigh activists.
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posted
So Hamitic does not equal Negro in their terminology? I also noticed that the article with the Jewish bias and other articles talking about the African origin of Semites use the term "Hamitic." I guess it makes them more comfortable, and maybe they figure that anyone who reads the articles without knowledge of 21st century terminology will not question the unsustainability of the term.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It is an unfortunate fact that the term "Berber" has been and continues to be used to erase the fact of continental African biological relations.
quote: The name MZGH was undoubtedly employed as a generic term by the ancestors of the modern Imushagh and their various branches, and it is they who must be considered as the modern representatives of the old Hamitic stock which was invaded by the brachycephals and xanthocroids, and which in some cases has been modified to take on a negroid form.
True, modern ethnographers won't use this type of early 20th century speech, yet we find these ideas still current, especially so among militant Amazigh activists.
posted
So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: If the original inhabitants of North Africa were Black, then how dare any non-Black person claim that they are native and the Black elements in their modern populations are the descendants of slaves?
Skin color is not race.
Skin color is not lineage.
Senegalese are native Africans and they are Francophones, but language is not race, langauge is not lineage.
Until this lesson is learned, history...not just African, but world history, can never be understood.
Again, and hate to put you through such paces, but if you have the time and it doesn't impose on you, please, could you scan and post the map relating to Berber in Joseph O. Vogel (ed) Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa London AltaMira 1997 the article by Kay Williamson Western African Languages in Historical Perspective
It should go in the TAMAZIGHT - a branch of the Afrisan family of African languages thread
posted
Again, I wonder if those two names are actually related. I've also read that Meshwesh were also called "Me" in Egyptian texts. Does anyone know if this abbreviation (?) has been noted in other usages of M-Z-GH as well?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Meshwesh are about the foreignest looking of all the "ancient Libyans." There's little doubt they spoke taMAZIGHt since their ethnonym is in fact a variant of the root M-Z-GH/R.
The Meshwesh are the furthest west of the Ament.x3st peoples appearing in the records of the ancient Egyptians. Their home was west of the eastern shores of the Gulf of Syrte.
Mediterranean seafarers (as exemplified by the Shekelesh who fled their northeast Aegean home and settled Sicily) in all probability regularly visited the northeast shore of the Syrtis (Tunisia and western Libya). Perhaps, women were among other commercial items they exchanged there with the inhabitants.
Maybe that's how the Meshwesh got so "funny looking" and lighter skinned?
I'm really interested in anybody's ideas on how so many native ancient Libyans came to be so creamy colored at such a distant point in the past (and the BG4:5 s30 in Seti I's tomb is too contemporaneous to the final fall of Troy to imagine that the various Sea Peoples womenfolk were the first to cream the North African's coffee).
posted
Nothing mysterious about "light skin" coastal North Africans, or about their origins in the African continent. Usually advocates who make it mysterious, are those who refuse to see facts relayed time and again, on a single factor: bias against the said "light skin" Africans on the account of their "outlier", so to speak, skin hue as far as the ranges in the rest of the African continent goes, notwithstanding that sections of coastal north Africans have their own biases against more southerly non-Tamazight speaking African groups, as well as non-Tamazight speakers to their north outside of the continent.
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quote: If the original inhabitants of North Africa were Black, then how there any non-Black person claim that they are native and the Black elements in their modern populations are the descendants of slaves
Eurocentrics made the claim that Berbers were white Africans which is NONSENSE, but the claim is promoted within the so called academic community thus the invader steals the history with the help of Eurocentric and Arabcentric Liars. Eurocentric academic Liars support the Berber ruse Eurocentric neo Nazi genticist support the Berber ruse Eurocentric incompetent Linguist support the Berber ruse.
Non-Blacks make the claim because they are supported by Eurocentrics and Arabcentrics, these people ignore the facts such as these:
quote: Excerpt from 'When We Ruled' by Robin Walker
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthropologist have studied skeletons from the Carthaginian cemeteries . Professor Eugene Pittard, then at the University of Geneva, reported that: " Other bones discovered in Punic Carthage, and housed in the Lavigerie Museum, come from personages found in special sarcophagi and probably belonging to the Carthaginian elite. Almost all the skulls are dolichocephalic ." Futhermore, the sarcophagus of the highly venerated Priestess of Tanit , "the most ornate" and "the most artistic yet found," is also housed in the Lavigerie Museum. Pittard says " The woman buried there had Negro features. She belonged to the African race !" Professor Stephane Gsell was the author of the voluminous Histoire Ancienne de l'Afrique du Nord. Also based on anthropological studies conducted on Carthaginian skeletons, he declared that: " The so called Semitic type, characterised by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not [yet] been found in Carthage ".
These facts are quite clear and candid that the people that occupy North Afrika today are not the same people that occupied North Afrika in the past. Now instead of writing the history of North Afrika based on the skeletons that they found (proving that they were idigenous Afrikans) they chose to ignore the facts and claim the language because the invaders adopted the language of course, next they re-named the language Berber making it a umbrella that covers up the truth and promote LIES, LIES, LIES. Tamasheq speakers have the Tifinagh script while those who claim they are original inhabitants of North Afrika DO NOT have the Tifinagh script, they copied the original and claimed a neo-Tifinagh script proving once again that they are not native to North Afrika, look at the result of the copying:
quote: Kra Isallen : In an official statement King Mohamed VI announced the decision of IRCAM (French acronym for Royal Institute for Amazigh Culture) to adopt the Neo-Tifinagh alphabet as the only writing system for Tamazight in Morocco. As an Amazigh linguist, what is your reaction to this decision ?
Salem Chaker : I consider that it is at the same time a hasty and badly founded decision, and certainly a dangerous one for the future and development of Tamazight in Morocco. It also shows very clearly the confusion among those who are in charge of the Amazigh language in the North African countries . While no serious scientific debate on the question of the alphabet to use ever took place in Morocco or Algeria, the political leaders decided on an option that is totally disconnected from the current practice, both in Morocco and in the rest of the Amazigh world. Currently, as you know, the most functional Amazigh writing system is Latin character based. In Morocco, it is seconded by the Arabic character based alphabet
In the end a LIE will never benefit a LIAR.
quote: The version currently in use, which is prevalent in certain Amazigh activist circles, is purely and simply aberrant since it is actually a phonetic notation of Kabyl based on Tifinagh characters. This was developed in 1970 in the Berber Academy circles by amateurs full of goodwill, but nonetheless without any linguistic training. The result is that the alphabet which is currently presented to us as the Amazigh alphabet is not an authentic one. It was strongly altered in order to transcribe the phonetic characteristics of Kabyl. It cannot thus be an Amazigh-wide alphabet .
In the end a Lie will never benefit a LIAR.
quote: In Morocco, however, where Tamazight writing is less extensive and unstable, and where competition between the Arabic and Latin based scripts exists, the decision to favor the Tifinagh script could have serious negative consequences. It may slow down or block the process of dissemination of the Amazigh written expression
In the end a Lie will never benefit the LIAR.
All the so called Linguist are well aware of these facts though they cover up the truth with ignorance called 'Berber'.
DNA is a European controlled science, Europeans do the testing, Europeans analyze the information and Europeans report the results. Notice that most geneticist only consult other Eurocentric writers when seeking historical information about the testing that they are conducting? DNA genetics for historical reporting is a psuedo-science that's based on racist ideologies NOT facts. How many geneticist have consulted the writing of Diop or Obenga?
Senegalese are native Africans and they are Francophones, but language is not race, langauge is not lineage.
Until this lesson is learned, history...not just African, but world history, can never be understood. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is so funny to see rasol avoiding these simple questions.
Neith-Athena wrote:
quote: So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
Go ahead rasol answer the questions
Do not use English as a example because English is a European language that was forced on the speakers. Do not use French or other European languages because we know these languages were forced upon the modern day Afrikan speakers of these languages. Please use a AFRIKAN language in your example next time because the subject is about a AFRIKAN language.
quote:So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
quote:Go ahead rasol answer the questions
Sorry I thought the question was rhetorical.
* Berber originates in East Africa and spread to NorthWest Africa.
** The signature Berber lineage is E3b2, which likely derived from E3b in either Sudan/Horn or Lower Egypt.
If you feel that answer isn't clear enough, let me know.
quote:Do not use English as a example because English is a European language that was forced on the speakers.
Let's assume that is so, how would that make English distinct?
If some Berber women are of recent European extraction as they likely are according to genetics...then how were they any *less* *forced* to speak Berber, than say and Indian speaking English?
Unless you can show a clear distinction in -why- English is spoken by many different ethnenes compared to Berber, then the example is valid.
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posted
Thanks Midogbe. Now that the referenced map is here I'm reposting snippets of the intial post of this thread.
In a map accompanying his article Western African Languages in Historical Perspective (seen below), Kay Williamson sees proto-Tamazight (the first "Berber" language)
1. originating in the Gharb Darfur region of Sudan 8kya 2. spreading from there to _a. the Dongola Reach/3rd cataract Tmhhw and to _b. the Air-Hoggar region 3. before proto-North Tamazight developed 4. and went to _a. the Maghreb and then eastward to __* Rebu/Libou and 5. proto-Zenaga left Air/Adrar des Ifores for _a. the Tagant (southern Mauritania).
Here are some other mappings of the language ================================ SIDEBAR NOTE:in comparison to the above map Taureg corresponds to Air-Hoggar Air/Adrar regions, Atlas/Zenati/Nefusi corresponds to the Maghreb, Siwi roughly corresponds to Rebu/Libou, and Zenaga corresponds to the Tagant.
=================================
Neolithic and early historic "Berber" finds, 250 or more miles south of the Mediterranean, could well have been left by black or coloured peoples who spoke "Berber" before it reached the Maghreb. In other words the Leukaethiopes Melanogaetuli Nigritae Western Ethiopians (Hesperii) Pharusii Icthyophagi Aethiopes etc., and their modern descendents still there in the same vast "Saharan" area are just as much "Berber" as anybody else, and if Williamson (based on Behrens) is right, even more so as they are remnants of the proto-North Tamazight speakers or so at least the Haritin donating to genetic tests seem to infer.
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The Tuareg's ancestry came from 5 sources. That ancestry includes The Mauretanian tribes of Goddala (Juddala), Lemta and Lemtouna. Some Tuareg are descended from the Messoufa and others.
When Queen Ti-n-Hinan reached the Adrar Mountains with her servant, she encountered the Isebetun, a pagan group. If you look closely, the Tuareg tribal names often indicate from which older tribe they came from.
Isebetun is probably the Esbet. (My guess).
The Maures left southern Mauretania for the Niger river bend when the Beni Hassan came into the area. They went east to found some Tuareg tribes.
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posted
Interesting. How do you correlate this with the reconstructable Proto-Berber root *a-kli "slave, negro" notably nowadays attested in Kabyle, Tamasheq (not sure anymore about Siwa) with the same meaning?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Neolithic and early historic "Berber" finds, 250 or more miles south of the Mediterranean, could well have been left by black or coloured peoples who spoke "Berber" before it reached the Maghreb. In other words the Leukaethiopes Melanogaetuli Nigritae Western Ethiopians (Hesperii) Pharusii Icthyophagi Aethiopes etc., and their modern descendents still there in the same vast "Saharan" area are just as much "Berber" as anybody else, and if Williamson (based on Behrens) is right, even more so as they are remnants of the proto-North Tamazight speakers or so at least the Haritin donating to genetic tests seem to infer. [/QB]
posted
The associations of this linguistic migration can be seen in the names of Senegal, which derives from Zenaga, a berber language. Nobody would confuse the populations of Senegal and Mauretania as deriving from anything other than Africans.
quote: Zenaga (autonym Tuḍḍungiyya) is a Berber language spoken by some 200 to 300 people (Ethnologue estimate, 1998) between Mederdra and the Atlantic coast in southwestern Mauritania. The language shares its basic structure with other Berber languages, but specific details are quite different; in fact, it is probably the most divergent surviving Berber language, with a significantly different sound system made even more distant by sound changes such as l > dj and kh > k, as well as a difficult to explain profusion of glottal stops. The name 'Zenaga' comes from that of a much bigger ancient Berber tribe, known to medieval Arab geographers as the Senhaja; the name "Senegal" is thought to derive from "Zenaga" as well.
Zenaga was once spoken throughout much of Mauritania, but fell into decline when its speakers were defeated by the Maqil Arabs in the Char Bouba war of the 17th century. After this war, they were forbidden to bear arms, and variously became either specialists in Islamic religious scholarship or servants to more powerful tribes. It was among the former, more prestigious group that Zenaga survived longest.
quote: So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
rasol wrote:
quote: Sorry I thought the question was rhetorical.
* Berber originates in East Africa and spread to NorthWest Africa.
** The signature Berber lineage is E3b2, which likely derived from E3b in either Sudan/Horn or Lower Egypt.
If you feel that answer isn't clear enough, let me know.
Thanks.
rasol can you please note the fact that ALL AFRIKANS ORIGINATED IN EAST AFRIKA NOT just groups who today are falsely labeled as 'Berbers'
Let's repeat the other question WHICH GROUP WERE THE ORIGINAL SPEAKERS OF THE LANGUAGE GROUP FALSELY LABELED AS 'BERBER'?
rasol the question was quite clear, WHAT is the oldest Lineage for so called 'Berber' speakers? LET'S REPEAT WHICH GROUP OF SO CALLED 'BERBER' SPEAKERS HAVE THE OLDEST LINEAGE?
NOT the signature 'Berber' lineage, for the record E3b2 CANNOT be a signature lineage because older human bones have been found in North Afrika, that pre-dates your 'signature berber lineage' Last time I checked the bones found buried in North Afrika have not been found to only carry E3b2.
The Sahelians did not always call themselves Black. The mentality of the people back then and over there was different tham from our modern day. The Sahelians who were racially mixed were called red. The paleskinned norhterners were called white and the darkest pagans were called black.
The Ethiopian Amhara don't call themselves Black. They are "red". They became Black in the modern era. The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".
The Znaga and the Beni Hassan often mixed with African neighboring tribes anyway. They are really part Soninke and Peul. And the Sahelians are part Berber. Americas.
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posted
^^ I hear you but *a-kli was etymologically related to work and is not an etymological reference to skin complexion. The first idea I get from this Proto Berber root is that it seems to show that "negroes" were already considered as slaves at the time when Proto Berber was spoken & weren't considered as Imazighen or "free men" at this time already. It would be interesting to get some information about the exact meaning of Akli in the various Berber dialects.
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quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow: Migdobe and Doug M,
The Sahelians did not always call themselves Black. The mentality of the people back then and over there was different tham from our modern day. The Sahelians who were racially mixed were called red. The paleskinned norhterners were called white and the darkest pagans were called black.
The Ethiopian Amhara don't call themselves Black. They are "red". They became Black in the modern era. The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".
The Znaga and the Beni Hassan often mixed with African neighboring tribes anyway. They are really part Soninke and Peul. And the Sahelians are part Berber. Americas.
MyRedCow, what are you talking about? Berber is a language group not a skin color. The origin of the berber language was among BLACK Africans and had nothing to do with what they called themselves, because we DONT know what the original Berber speakers called themselves or their language. From this ROOT berber language from East Africa many different variations have come about in many parts of Northern Africa, but NONE of them have ANYTHING to do with skin color. Berber, therefore, is a LANGUAGE, not a skin color. Likewise the SPREAD of the ORIGINAL Berber speakers and language DOES NOT coincide or have ANYTHING to do with different POPULATIONS with DIFFERENT skin colors. The various skin colors and various populations that have come under the MODERN umbrella of "Berbers" have histories and lineages from various migrations and intrusions in to Africa over the last 5000 years, but DID NOT bring the Berber LANGUAGE into Africa. So whatever TERMS exist in Berber for SLAVE or NOT SLAVE and BLACK and NOT BLACK is irrelevant to tracing the ORIGINAL populations who arose in East Africa and carried the INITIAL Berber ROOT TONGUE. And as far as SLAVERY goes, BLACK berber muslims were ALSO enslaving OTHER black NON MUSLIMS as much as OTHER black Africans ALSO participated in the ENSLAVEMENT of blacks, as much as WHITES were enslaved by BLACKS and OTHER WHITES.
Likewise Ahmara ETHIOPIANS and their ANCESTORS IN AFRICA have ALWAYS BEEN BLACK as BLACK is a skin color NOT A WORD. You do not trace the ancestry of people SOLELY through linguistics and there is NO linguistics that changes the fact that the ANCESTRAL populations were ALL BLACK, just like the ANCESTRAL populations that populated the SAHEL were ALL BLACK as well. Any NON BLACK populations that came into the Sahel and other parts of Northern Africa WERE NOT indigenous to Africa and DID NOT bring culture and language TO AFRICA. These MIGRANTS MORE OFTEN ADOPTED African culture than CREATED IT. Likewise Soninke and Peul ARE SAHELIANS and it is RIDICULOUS to USE A LANGUAGE a s the DETERMINING factor of ANCESTRAL LINEAGE. The PEUL, SONINKE and others are ALL DESCENDED from the ORIGINAL BLACK AFRICAN populations of the Sahel, whether they spoke a "Berber" language or not.
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For me Black is a word and not a skin color. The Amhara and Tigray do not call themselves black in private. They have various words for skin colors.
The Khoisan pygmies do not call themselves black. Some people in Africa are jet black. But, not all. The blackest people tend to be Sudanic people from the Sudan to Senegal. They are also the tallest.
The Rock Art in South Africa and the Sahara often shows people painted in red ocre. Melanin colors thee skin with red and yellow pigments which when are found in the highest amounts cause blackness.
I don't know what the proto-Amazigh called themselves. I believe the modern Tuareg are the closest people living today who are their offspring and they are all Africans.
Southern Africa
Sahara
Kemet
RED OCHRE!
The proto-Berber probably broke off from east African Afroasiatic and was spoken by Y chromosome E3b guys. I have no problem with that.
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quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: [QB] Greetings:
Neith-Athena wrote: [QUOTE] So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
rasol wrote:
quote: Sorry I thought the question was rhetorical.
* Berber originates in East Africa and spread to NorthWest Africa.
** The signature Berber lineage is E3b2, which likely derived from E3b in either Sudan/Horn or Lower Egypt.
If you feel that answer isn't clear enough, let me know.
Thanks.
quote:rasol can you please note the fact that ALL AFRIKANS ORIGINATED IN EAST AFRIKA NOT just groups who today are falsely labeled as 'Berbers'.
No because that's not accurate. You can show that Berber langauge group originated in East Africa.
You can't show that Bantu language group originated in East Africa.
Of course, you can try to confuse the issue in the usual way, by pointing to the ultimate East African origin of all humans, but that would be a non sequitur.
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quote:Let's repeat the other question WHICH GROUP WERE THE ORIGINAL SPEAKERS OF THE LANGUAGE GROUP FALSELY LABELED AS 'BERBER'?
That isn't the original question. Its a new question designed to have no answer because the question makes no sense.
By definition the group of original speakers of Berber - are the original Berber.
Are you asking where they originated?
We've answered that -> East Africa.
Are you asking what there skin color was?
We've answered that, they were most likely dark skinned like all other native Africans such as the Siwa.
So why are you repeating the questions, but in capital letters and with such convoluted language as to make it difficult to figure out what you're actually asking?
My conclusion is that you are desparate to appear to be asking a question that is not being answered. That's easy to do.
Anyone can ask a nonsensical question.
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quote: Melanin colors thee skin with red and yellow pigments which when are found in the highest amounts cause blackness.
Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong
Afrikan people carry high amounts of EUMELANIN, EUMELANIN COMES IN 2 VARITIES BLACK AND BROWN.
Wikipedia
quote: Eumelanin is found in hair and skin, and colors hair grey, black, yellow, and brown. Eumelanin is found in hair and skin, and colors hair grey, black, yellow, and brown. In humans, it is more abundant in peoples with dark skin. There are 2 different types of eumelanin, which are distinguished from each other by their pattern of polymer bonds. The 2 types are black eumelanin and brown eumelanin . A small amount of black eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes grey hair. A small amount of brown eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes yellow (blond) color hair. , which are distinguished from each other by their pattern of polymer bonds. The 2 types are black eumelanin and brown eumelanin. A small amount of black eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes grey hair. A small amount of brown eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes yellow (blond) color hair.
Afrikan people have the highest amount of Eumelanin.
Pheomelanin is responsible for the red pigments, Afrikan people have the lowest amount of Pheomelanin.
Sometime in the fifth century BC or so (the earliest attested dated inscription is from 138 BC, but the letter forms appear to have developed from early Phoenician rather than the cursive Punic then current, and some archeologists argue for a date as early as 500 BC for the Azib n'Ikkis inscription in Morocco), the Numidians and other early Berber kingdoms developed a script now known as Numidic, or Old Libyan, or Libyco-Berber. This script, like ancient Greek, was clearly based on early Phoenician, which appears to have contributed the characters for b, g, h, z, y, l, n, q, r, sh, and t at least (see the table here); but many innovations were required for sounds not found in Phoenician, and these - as well as the overall style of the script - seem to have been influenced by earlier traditions of geometric rock art and possibly cattle marking. Since this script appears to have been used mainly on stone inscriptions, its forms were geometric for easier carving (like Runic or monumental Latin). Like Phoenician, appropriately for an Afro-Asiatic language, it did not transcribe vowels (not even initial ones); it was usually written top-down or right-to-left, but bottom-to-top is not uncommon. It is attested from innumerable tombstones and a few Numidian governmental inscriptions (mainly in Dougga, then called tbgg, in Tunisia, as with the famous bilingual), from the Canary Islands all the way to Libya, although the letter forms varied to some extent across this vast range, falling into two main groups, eastern and western. This script continued in occasional use up to the late Roman Empire, after which it is not attested anywhere north of the Atlas Mountains. In late times, there were extremely sporadic tombstones in Libyan using the Latin script, as with Neo-Punic. If you speak Arabic, you may be interested in a more detailed examination of it at my site; in French, Monde Berbere offers a lot of information.
Tamasheq
Even as it disappeared in the North, however, the Tuareg preserved - and continue to preserve - a simplified variant of it as a living tradition, used for letters or graffiti or occasionally poetry. They call this script Tifinagh, or in some areas Shifinagh, and, despite government decisions in Niger and Mali to replace it with the Latin alphabet, it is still in wide use today. The details of its evolution from Libyan are unknown, but some ancient graffiti from the Sahara which use letters that have not survived in modern Tifinagh allow some degree of historical connection; inscriptions in the same intermediate alphabet (same according to Delgado; undoubtedly Tifinagh in any case) have been found in the Canaries, which may have preserved the tradition independently on Hierro until the arrival of the Spanish. While letter writing is primarily done in Tifinagh, such manuscripts as have survived the colonial era were in Arabic "Ajami" script (see Université Abdou Moumouni, Niamey (Niger) or Saharan Studies Association Nov 2000 for 16th-century examples from Timbuktu); more recently, books have very occasionally been published in Latin or Tifinagh. Efforts have been made to put forward reformed, vocalised (in various ways), left-to-right versions of this script as well, from 19th-century missionaries to the present, but its users seem to have shown little or no interest; indeed, so far it has not even been standardized, and varies significantly from region to region. As the Tuareg are one of the most literate peoples of the area, this script has sporadically been used for noting other normally unwritten West African languages, such as Tagdal Songhai and Fulfulde.) Further details on this script can be seen at this site; fonts are downloadable at Qui resiste. A real-life example, a menu in fact, can be seen here - or even better, a whole book on camel disorders; also, Hanoteau's Grammaire de la Langue Tamashek and Motylinksi's Dictionnaire Touareg (which use this script copiously) is now available from the Bibliothčque Nationale Française. Rather charmingly, one of the few Tuareg printed works in this script is a Tamasheq translation of Le Petit Prince.
It is interesting to note that this script is more widely used by women than men; figures suggest 2/3 of Tuareg women are literate in it, in contrast to 1/3 of men, who are more often literate in the Arabic script, or even in the Arabic language instead, to deal with the outside world. While the educational systems of Niger and Mali (since 1997) include some limited Latin-alphabet native-language programs, which have increased in recent years, in the short term they seem unlikely to reach a scale sufficient to threaten the dominance of Tifinagh on the ground, particularly since most education focuses on French; indeed, some of the literacy programs rather sensibly avoid reinventing the wheel and use Tifinagh!
Islamic Era Arabic script
After a hiatus in records during the Vandal and Byzantine periods, Berber languages in the North began to be written again as early as 1200 years ago, when the anti-Caliphal Ibadhite sect of Islam established a state in the central Maghreb; a lost work by al-Wighwi (d. 811) which "its author put in the Berber tongue, that the Berbers might transmit it" is mentioned by ad-Darjini, and several chroniclers mention twelve books of religious poetry by Abu Sahl al-Farisi in the 9th century (lost in a medieval war, according to ash-Shammakhi); several other early Ibadhi Berber-language works are alluded to by Muhammed u Madi, but the earliest surviving one seems to be a translation of Mudawanat Ibn Ghanim, now in Italy. Additionally, the Ibadhi history Riwayat ul-Ashyakh (about 1300) contains copious phrases in Berber; and the `Aqidat at-Tawhid, though now preserved only in Arabic,was translated from Berber. Berber writing received a boost further west about a thousand years ago with the Almoravids, whose founding texts - the sermons of Ibn Tumart - had originally been written in Berber; though most of their kingdom's writings have disappeared, surviving works include the 2500-word Berber-Arabic dictionary Kitab ul-Asma كتاب الأسماء compiled by Ibn Tunart (no relation) in 1146, and the frustratingly short "Leiden fragment", a 16-line page from an otherwise lost 14th-century work dealing with ethics in the Berber language, both in a medieval Tachelhit dialect, as well as isolated sentences and plant name lists in other works. Nico van den Boogert argues that these works - unlike most later ones outside the Moroccan Souss - use a fairly standardized orthography, implying a whole Berber educational system; he speculates, surprisingly, that this system was based in Andalusia, where until the Reconquista a substantial Berber-speaking population was found. Looking at the situation, one might have speculated that a Berber literary renaissance was about to emerge; instead, perhaps due to the turmoil coming from the Spanish to the north and the Banu Hilal to the east, the early medieval tradition virtually disappeared, although it left its traces in the later Tachelhit literature.
For the later medieval period, we have sporadic evidence of Berber writing almost everywhere the language was spoken; however, the Moroccan Souss stands out in this regard. There, a fairly large and continuous textual tradition, consisting particularly of religious poetry and translations but also including hadith and dictionaries, is attested starting as early as 1580; the most important author of this tradition was the prolific poet Muhammad Awzal (1680-1749). In the Souss a highly standardized orthography with several new letters was used, contrasting with the more haphazard spellings of other Berber areas. Nico van den Boogert, again, has published some fascinating investigations into these, along with a complete text of Awzal's Bahr ad-Dumu`.
Elsewhere, while not as strongly as in the Sous, Berber writing continued. In Kabylie, the early nationalist and religious leader Cheikh Mokrane (about 1870) wrote extensively in this script; it was also used for some correspondence, and in the colonial period extensive collections of poetry and fables used it, such as Poésie Populaire de la Kabylie de Jurjura; in addition, especially near Bejaia, there existed translations of the traditional Arabic textbooks of the zaouias, from religious poetry to mathematics (see EDB.) In Libya, the Ibadhis of Jabal Nafusa (as probably in the Mzab and Djerba) continued to write in Berber, as most notably attested by the handwritten geographical work Ighasra d Ibriden di Drar n Infusen of Brahim u Sliman Ashemmakhi in 1899, now being republished by Tawalt; they also mention a manuscript in the Ghat dialect from the same period. Apparently it was also used occasionally for a few poems in Middle Atlas Tamazight and in Tarifit; however, the American anthropologist Carleton Coon noted (in 1931!) that most of the Berber books in Morocco even as far north as the Rif were in Tachelhit. Knappert alludes to Zenaga writing, which, in light of Mauritania's extensive zaouia system, would seem probable on the face of it; however, I have only come across it in French linguistic works. Throughout this period, the zaouia network - providing a modicum of education to anyone interested, which most children took advantage of at least briefly - kept a limited degree of literacy up throughout North Africa, as it still does in parts of West Africa.
In modern times, the Arabic script has fallen into near-complete disuse in Algeria - even Mzabi works use Latin - but - particularly in a modernized orthography proposed by Muhammad Chafik - is still much used in Morocco and Libya, especially for Tashelhit, despite competition from Neo-Tifinagh; in Morocco, several books in recent decades have used it, including some fiction, a dictionary, and most notably the recent first full translation of the Quran into Berber, published 2003, a powerful influence in itself. Even in Algeria it was officially adopted for pedagogical purposes in 1996, although that project was abandoned soon after.
On the Internet, the Arabic script has as far as I know been used extensively by only two Berber language webpages: Tarifit Project and Tawalt. This is not surprising in retrospect; most North African computers tend to be equipped with French operating systems, and, while no language other than English has a really significant online presence, French has far more webpages and software than Arabic.
Just for completeness' sake, it should also be added that Jewish Berbers occasionally wrote Berber in Hebrew characters; see Judeo-Berber.
quote: THE BERBER LITERARY TRADITION OF THE SOUS with an edition and translation of 'The Ocean of Tears' by Muhammad Awzal
Nico van den Boogert
This book is the first exploration of the Tashelhit Berber manuscript texts produced in the Sous (South Morocco). The first part describes the region and its traditional schooling system and offers a general description of the manuscript texts, their form, contents, orthography (fully vocalised Maghribi-Arabic script) and language. It presents a survey of all manuscript texts known to date, the oldest of which was written around 1580 AD. The second part describes the life and work of Muhammad Awzal (�1680-1749 AD), the most important Berber author of the period, and contains a list of all Awzal manuscripts. Awzal's lexicon and language are explored separately. An edition in transcription of Awzal's versified exhortation Bahr ad-dumu' "Ocean of Tears", with English translation, notes and glossary is also included.
Nederlands Instituut voor het Nabije Oosten (Witte Singel 25, Postbus 9515, 2300 RA Leiden, Netherlands, fax : 071-5272038), publication of De Goeje Fund (n� XXVII), Leiden, 1997, 456 pages, Hfl 150. ISBN 90-625-8971-5
Dr. N. van den Boogert started his four years post-doctoral period on the first of November 1994. His PhD thesis Muhammad Awzal and the Berber Literary Tradition of the Sous (343 pages) was defended on 1 March 1995. Van den Boogert, educated as an arabist, berberologist and codicologist, specialises in the Sous Berber literary tradition as found in manuscripts. In the framework of the post-doctoral project Van den Boogert hopes to make an anthology of texts with translations of works fromthis tradition. He continues, in a sense, what was started by a Dutch scholar, B. Stricker who, in 1960, made the first and only scientifically adequate publication of a Sous Berber manusript text, written in Arabic characters. Sous Berber manuscripts can be found in various public and private collections, the most important being the Berber manuscript collection of the Leiden University Library and the one in the Fonds Roux at Aix-en-Provence.
The language of the Sous region is Tashelhiyt (Tachelhit), which is the largest berber language and derives from the language of the Almoravid and Al Andalus before the Banu Hilal invasions.
Berber language map (which only extends as far east as Siwa nominally, therefore omitting the historic proto berber historical language connections further east. This is why many consider it separate from other African languages originating IN Africa. But that confusion should be cleared up by now.)
The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".
There are no bantu people in ethiopia, southern somalia/northern kenya is where the bantu people stopped in their migration.
quote:Doug M: Any NON BLACK populations that came into the Sahel and other parts of Northern Africa WERE NOT indigenous to Africa and DID NOT bring culture and language TO AFRICA.
How do you know this for certain that other people outside africa did not bring some part of culture and language? Where people meet they always trade ideas and influence each other, so you can't say for sure that "NON BLACK...DID NOT bring language and culture TO AFRICA". This would make sense if it was an isolated place , but north africa is one of the few regions in the world where there have been alot of movement and trade for long time, so your statement above doesn't sound realistic.
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The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".
There are no bantu people in ethiopia, southern somalia/northern kenya is where the bantu people stopped in their migration.
quote:Doug M: Any NON BLACK populations that came into the Sahel and other parts of Northern Africa WERE NOT indigenous to Africa and DID NOT bring culture and language TO AFRICA.
How do you know this for certain that other people outside africa did not bring some part of culture and language? Where people meet they always trade ideas and influence each other, so you can't say for sure that "NON BLACK...DID NOT bring language and culture TO AFRICA". This would make sense if it was an isolated place , but north africa is one of the few regions in the world where there have been alot of movement and trade for long time, so your statement above doesn't sound realistic.
What I am talking about is the fact there have been many attempts to put indigenous African languages and cultures into a FOREIGN context as opposed to a AFRICAN context. Berber language and culture is a good example of this, as BERBER language ORIGINATED among Africans, black Africans who originally inhabited the Sahara, Sahel and Maghreb. Over time foriegners did indeed migrate to these areas and influence the culture, but MOST OFTEN they ADOPTED the patterns of culture and lifestyle ALREADY PRESENT. But when TRACING these traditions sometimes the fact that the descendents of the foreign migrants are more prevalent in certain areas causes people to assume that they ORIGINATED these traditions, which is NOT ALWAYS the case. Hence the concept of Berber language and culture or Saharan languages and cultures originating with Eurasian migrants, which is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. Sure, there have been influences from elsewhere, but to say that Saharan culture and traditions ORIGINATED outside of the Saharan Africa is nonsense. Arabic is obviously irrelevant in this regard as Arabic is spoken by MANY PEOPLE of MANY backgrounds and nobody considers it African. What I am talking about are those PRE muslim traditions and customs that we can safely say are DISTINCTLY Saharan traits that have NOTHING to do with outside influences brought about due to Islam. And even with the rise of Islam, those fighting AGAINST the onslaught of Islamic invaders in the Sahara were MOSTLY black AFricans. It is only AFTER the defeat of the various tribes of the Sahara that Non Africans became more prevalent. Saharan culture and people are many thousands of years old and these people ORIGINALLY came from Africa and had developed many rich cultural traditions and languages that went on to influence many populations ACROSS Africa. Much of this PRIOR to any largescale migrations of any NON African populations into the Sahara. Therefore, when tracing Saharan history and culture one needs to be careful about being TOO LIBERAL in applying distinctly African cultural traditions to FOREIGN influence.
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quote: That isn't the original question. Its a new question designed to have no answer because the question makes no sense.
By definition the group of original speakers of Berber - are the original Berber.
Are you asking where they originated?
We've answered that -> East Africa.
Are you asking what there skin color was?
We've answered that, they were most likely dark skinned like all other native Africans such as the Siwa.
So why are you repeating the questions, but in capital letters and with such convoluted language as to make it difficult to figure out what you're actually asking?
My conclusion is that you are desparate to appear to be asking a question that is not being answered. That's easy to do.
Anyone can ask a nonsensical question.
rasol seems to be avoiding simple questions I wonder why?
Neith-Athena wrote:
quote: So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
rasol lets try and remove the umbrella called 'Berber' and see what's being covered up.
Wikipedia
quote: Subclassification of the Berber languages is made difficult by their mutual closeness; Maarten Kossmann (1999) describes it as two dialect continua, Northern Berber and Tuareg, and a few peripheral languages , spoken in isolated pockets largely surrounded by Arabic, that fall outside these continua, namely Zenaga and the Libyan and Egyptian varieties
rasol Subclassification of 'Berber' is possible, seeing that it's mostly a TWO DIALECT CONTINUA Northern Tama(Z)ight and Tamasheq.
Lets ask now which group is older? or which group came first Northern Tamazight or Tamasheq?
What are the most ancient lineages found amongst Northern Tamazight speakers versus Tamasheq speakers?
rasol seems to running fast and furious from the lineage question
quote: That isn't the original question. Its a new question designed to have no answer because the question makes no sense.
By definition the group of original speakers of Berber - are the original Berber.
Are you asking where they originated?
We've answered that -> East Africa.
Are you asking what there skin color was?
We've answered that, they were most likely dark skinned like all other native Africans such as the Siwa.
So why are you repeating the questions, but in capital letters and with such convoluted language as to make it difficult to figure out what you're actually asking?
My conclusion is that you are desparate to appear to be asking a question that is not being answered. That's easy to do.
Anyone can ask a nonsensical question.
rasol seems to be avoiding simple questions I wonder why?
Neith-Athena wrote:
quote: So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
rasol lets try and remove the umbrella called 'Berber' and see what's being covered up.
Wikipedia
quote: Subclassification of the Berber languages is made difficult by their mutual closeness; Maarten Kossmann (1999) describes it as two dialect continua, Northern Berber and Tuareg, and a few peripheral languages , spoken in isolated pockets largely surrounded by Arabic, that fall outside these continua, namely Zenaga and the Libyan and Egyptian varieties
rasol Subclassification of 'Berber' is possible, seeing that it's mostly a TWO DIALECT CONTINUA Northern Tama(Z)ight and Tamasheq.
Lets ask now which group is older? or which group came first Northern Tamazight or Tamasheq?
What are the most ancient lineages found amongst Northern Tamazight speakers versus Tamasheq speakers?
rasol seems to running fast and furious from the lineage question
Hotep
The point you are missing is that if MODERN berber dialects are surrounded by Arabic speakers and others, then this MODERN dispersal does not reflect the historic dispersals and origins of the language. Arabic is not native to Africa and the spread of Arabic displaced and disrupted the original distribution of Berber dialects as well as original North African populations. Therefore, using the MODERN dispersal of Berber dialects based on the two main groups Northern and Tuareg, is erroneous. For example, the Tuareg are descended as an ethnic entity from ancient Saharan berber speakers who once roamed ALL of the Sahara from the Atlantic to Ethiopia. They have been squeezed into a pocked in the middle of the Sahara by Muslim invaders from the North and East and blocked by peoples in the South (even though the relationships between the two are relatively deep as well). Therefore, you cannot look at the MODERN geospatial distribution of Tuaregs as an indication of the extent to which ancient ancestral Tuareg populations once roamed. This is no different from observing the modern geospatial distribution of Native Americans in comparison with their ancestral distribution.
Time does not stand still, populations do not stand still and languages do not stand still. Therefore, nothing is being covered up, other than the fact that RELATIVELY RECENT migrations of Eurasians and others carrying Arabic culture and language have done much to disrupt the ancient patterns of culture, language and lifestyle of populations that occupied Northern Africa. The Berber language and its original distribution and dispersal among various African populations has been similarly distrupted and displaced, therefore making the modern dispersals of Berber speakers not reflective of the original dispersions and populations that carried it. It is like people keep denying that the last 2,000 years of North African history has seen a large influx of Eurasian populations into North Africa, by claiming the make up of Northern Africa was ALWAYS the way it is now, going back more than 2,000 years ago. Sorry, but no it wasn't. Therefore, the very question of trying to equate Northern Berber and Tamashek with the original populations that were responsible for spreading those languages is as ridiculous as trying to say Northern Coastal Africans, heavily mixed with foreign migrants are somehow older lineages than those INDIGENOUS to Africa who originally populated the Sahara.
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posted
I don't know if I can correlate the the various Greco-Latin denoted NA ethnies with the Tamazight root akli, nor am I certain akli ever meant "negro-slave" before the Portuguese invented such a character in reference to their own sea bound 15th century trade.
What little I know of akli in practical application leads me to rank it as one of the Kel Tagelmust "castes." An akli is just as much one of the tribe as a "noble," a "serf," or a "clergyman." Nor do all akli derive from kidnapped or slavetraded Gnawa.
Perhaps not in as great proportions but the noble class shares the same set of facial features with the non-Gnawa origin servant class.
There's more I would write on this but as it's not language related I'll post it in some other thread.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Interesting. How do you correlate this with the reconstructable Proto-Berber root *a-kli "slave, negro" notably nowadays attested in Kabyle, Tamasheq (not sure anymore about Siwa) with the same meaning?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Neolithic and early historic "Berber" finds, 250 or more miles south of the Mediterranean, could well have been left by black or coloured peoples who spoke "Berber" before it reached the Maghreb. In other words the Leukaethiopes Melanogaetuli Nigritae Western Ethiopians (Hesperii) Pharusii Icthyophagi Aethiopes etc., and their modern descendents still there in the same vast "Saharan" area are just as much "Berber" as anybody else, and if Williamson (based on Behrens) is right, even more so as they are remnants of the proto-North Tamazight speakers or so at least the Haritin donating to genetic tests seem to infer.
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A San bushman with Dr. Spencer Wells Photograph: National Geographic Society: Courtesy finfacts.com
Damn that's a pure bushman dawg? All the pictures I seen of the khoisan tribes were light-skinned and wiry, oh well .
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posted
Neither words for servant/slave be it akl or abd originally meant a black inner African. Only after the overt slave trade was relegated to purchases of inner Africans did either word take on such connotation.
There simply was no such thing as a negro over 6ya when proto-taMazight split off from Afrisan or bloomed into its own phylum however it may have done so.
Back in that time, and in the region it happened, where there any other people than tropically adapted black inner Africans? -- none of whom were negroes (an insidious term originating from the 15th century Portuguese slave trade which means a black thing i.e., commodity, a word so vile that it became outlawed in the Portuguese tongue because it and its derivatives could not be cleansed of the unnatural derogative stigma associated with the word when applied to a human being.)
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^ I hear you but *a-kli was etymologically related to work and is not an etymological reference to skin complexion. The first idea I get from this Proto Berber root is that it seems to show that "negroes" were already considered as slaves at the time when Proto Berber was spoken & weren't considered as Imazighen or "free men" at this time already. It would be interesting to get some information about the exact meaning of Akli in the various Berber dialects.
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Interesting. I'll try to dig up about the meaning of Akli "slave/negro" and the different beliefs associated to it in various Berber dialects to see if the "black" meaning could actually have been a import from Portugueses at a time when Berbers were already scattered and geographically isolated from each other.
PS: Isn't it possible that Tuareg/ Siwi looking Berbers would have looked at inner African looking people as different as them though, hence the modern translation of *a-kli as "negro"?
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^
Interesting. I'll try to dig up about the meaning of Akli "slave/negro" and the different beliefs associated to it in various Berber dialects to see if the "black" meaning could actually have been a import from Portugueses at a time when Berbers were already scattered and geographically isolated from each other.
PS: Isn't it possible that Tuareg/ Siwi looking Berbers would have looked at inner African looking people as different as them though, hence the modern translation of *a-kli as "negro"?
How would the fact that Africans look different than one another justify a translation into the European racialist construct of 'negro' (?)
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posted
^^ Nevermind. Forget about "Negro" and please replace it by "tropical African featured" in my posts.
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posted
Uh-oh! Inner African doesn't denote a monolithic phenotype. Not being Mediterranean coastal, Kel taMasheq (excepting those of the far north) are one inner African phenotype.
But these servitude words that nowadays are used in place of outright saying black men/women/etc., mean exactly that, "work."
You've said as much in your etymology of akli.
Is abd the Arabic word for the color black? Is akl the taMazight word for the color black? Negro comes from the Latin for the color black. The root of negro is unrelated to the concept of work.
See what's going on here?
As black as the oasis sharecroppers, a good number of the clergymen, and the bulk of the smiths and the craftsmen are, why aren't they called akli?
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^
Interesting. I'll try to dig up about the meaning of Akli "slave/negro" and the different beliefs associated to it in various Berber dialects to see if the "black" meaning could actually have been a import from Portugueses at a time when Berbers were already scattered and geographically isolated from each other.
PS: Isn't it possible that Tuareg/ Siwi looking Berbers would have looked at inner African looking people as different as them though, hence the modern translation of *a-kli as "negro"?
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An example: the Dqae Qare project, a venture in cultural tourism owned and operated by the Ncoakhoe people near Ghanzi (see page on historical/cultural tourism) is described on the publicity leaflet as "A community based tourism project of the Bushmen of D'Kar, Ghanzi District, Botswana". Inside a note reads: "We are called San, or Bushmen. We call ourselves Ncoakhoe, the 'red people'."
Some spokespersons for San non-government organizations in Botswana have argued for the use of the Naro term N/oakwe (“Red People”) to refer to the San. A number of them have also suggested that the term “First People” be used, building on the idea of these groups being the “first comers” or aboriginal peoples who first occupied the Kalahari Desert. The designation “First People” was used by the San non-government organization Kgeikani Kweni (First People of the Kalahari) that has sought to draw attention to the plight of the San.
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In Southern Ethiopia, close to the Somali border, a village lies on the Shebelle River – Babada. Eighty meters away, across the swift currents of one of Ethiopia's largest rivers, lies the village of Reythab. The people of Reythab and Babada are related. They are Bantu people who have lived in the area for centuries. Though there are many nomadic peoples in southern Ethiopia, the Bantu's are not. And unlike other Ethiopians that live close to the border with Somalia, they are not of Somali extract.
Two centuries ago the Bantu's ancestors were taken from their homes in Mozambique, Tanzania and Malawi, and sold as slaves in Somalia as well as along the border areas of Southern Ethiopia. Most were sold by Arab slave traders to grow food for the advancing Arab armies. The Arabs were eventually defeated by the Bantu's and the Ethiopian Imperial Forces. And, for their loyalty to the Ethiopian Emperor in this war, they were granted both freedom from slavery and given the land they now live on. However, since the Bantu's were surrounded by a majority of Moslem Somali speaking nomadic tribes, the Bantus were forced to abandon their language and African cultural heritage. Even more tragic was the retreat of the Ethiopian Imperial forces to the Ethiopian highlands. Without protection from Ethiopia, the Bantus fell victims to the Somali tribes, which subjected them to segregation, humiliation, and forced labor. Thankfully, the Ethiopians retook what is now southern Ethiopia, and reestablished the Bantu's basic social freedoms and self rule. In spite of the misery of the last 200 years, the Bantu's remain a joyful and non-violent people.
The Bantu's have been forgotten or passed over by the western development community. The New York Times recently described them as "Africa's lost tribe." Whereas other ethnic groups have received much help in the way of schools, clinics, wells, etc., the proud Bantu's have not. So, even though they are desperate for help with clinics, irrigation systems, clean water, etc, there is one thing that they want help with more than any other . . . a bridge.
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quote:Red cow: Two centuries ago the Bantu's ancestors were taken from their homes in Mozambique, Tanzania and Malawi, and sold as slaves in Somalia as well as along the border areas of Southern Ethiopia. Most were sold by Arab slave traders to grow food for the advancing Arab armies. The Arabs were eventually defeated by the Bantu's and the Ethiopian Imperial Forces. And, for their loyalty to the Ethiopian Emperor in this war, they were granted both freedom from slavery and given the land they now live on. However, since the Bantu's were surrounded by a majority of Moslem Somali speaking nomadic tribes, the Bantus were forced to abandon their language and African cultural heritage. Even more tragic was the retreat of the Ethiopian Imperial forces to the Ethiopian highlands. Without protection from Ethiopia, the Bantus fell victims to the Somali tribes, which subjected them to segregation, humiliation, and forced labor. Thankfully, the Ethiopians retook what is now southern Ethiopia, and reestablished the Bantu's basic social freedoms and self rule. In spite of the misery of the last 200 years, the Bantu's remain a joyful and non-violent people.
LMAO, i bet this was written by Ethiopian officials. First of all there have never been any bantus in E#thiopia and no "Ethiopian emperical forces" saved bantus from Somalis, what a joke Lol.
It's true, that Bantu people were brought to the southern somali coast by arabs as slaves, but they had a very short life as slaves since a minority of somalis are agriculturists and never needed labour so they were left freely to roam around and take land where they wanted which they did all over southern somalia. As they still administer and inhabit today in great part of southern somalia, and actually as far north as Moqdisho and southwest as Jowhar including the riverine area. Bantus have had alot of mixing with somalis and during the civil war bantus and other minorities were the least affected. Somalis might be brutal towards whatever enemies thrown on them, but they rarely attack minorities or other weak groups who don't show threat towards their clan. The above post from you just further testifies how little you know about the horn region especially somalia.You shouldn't comment issues you know little about.
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to see rasol avoiding these simple questions.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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NOT just groups who today are falsely labeled as 'Berbers'![[Confused]](confused.gif)
for the record E3b2 CANNOT be a signature lineage because older human bones have been found in North Afrika, that pre-dates your 'signature berber lineage' 
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