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A-Group Nubians Caucasoid?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: The Eurocentrics do the opposite or inverse of the aforementioned Afrocentrics by emphasizing the "Caucasoid" traits while downplaying or ignoring the "negroid" traits to the point that they try to group North Africans entirely with Western Eurasians (Europeans & Southwest Asians) when in fact North Africans morphologically fall in a position [i]intermediate[/i] that is right between Sub-Saharans and Western Eurasians as these craniometric charts below show. [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/G4ifRjx.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]Why do you lie when the picture clearly shows that the centroids of both Lower/upper egyptian are closer to the european cluster ? Only the nubian centroid is indeed intermediate. Here a more simple picture of the same Analysis where you can better see the position of the centroids : [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/PrdIbo0.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Mind you, all these data are based on metric traits which is more specious and are poor indicators of actual genetic relations. This is why South Asians (Indians) cluster with Nubians and in other studies Sub-Saharans cluster with Oceanian Aboriginals like Melanesians and Andamanese.[/QUOTE]Yes many south asians appear intermediate because they descend in part from those same Andamanese-like populations who happen to morphologically cluster with negroids. How is that surprising ? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Nonmetric traits are a better indication of genetic relations and they still show North Africans to be intermediate between Sub-Saharans and West Eurasians. The West Eurasian samples given above happen to be Europeans but you should get the point.[/QUOTE]That's not what Hanihara et al. 2003 shows : [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/19ApqrR.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Even in dental traits there are differences between North Africans and Sub-Saharans. The former have microdonty that is small mass-reduced teeth similar to Western Eurasians whereas the latter have have megadonty which is large mass-increased teeth similar to Australo-Melanesians. But when it comes to non-metric traits here is what one reknowned odontologist said: [i]Thus, I proposed (Irish, 1993b, 1998a) that the North African dental trait complex is one which parallels that of Europeans, [b]yet displays higher frequencies of Bushman Canine, two-rooted UP1, three-rooted UM2, LM2 Y- groove, LM1 cusp 7, LP1 Tome's root, two-rooted LM2[/b], and lower frequencies of UM1 enamel extension and peg/reduced or absent UM3. [b]North Africans also exhibit a higher frequency of UM1 Carabelli's trait than sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans.[/b][/i] --Irish (1998) ^The emboldened parts other than the bit about Carabelli's trait are all traits associated with Sub-Saharans.[/QUOTE]Irish actually emphasize how different the two groups are and actually shows that dentally north africans are much closer to europeans and other eurasians whether they have some negroid tendencies or not and it seems that you purposely omitted the fact that this "North African" category also includes people from the Horn of Africa who are much more SSA shifted than Egyptians or NW Africans : [QUOTE] [b]Three broad geographic based groups are evident: (1) Europe/Mediterranean (Europe, West Asia, North Africa)[/b] , (2) Northeast Asia/New World (South Siberia, China-Mongolia, Northeast Asia, American Arctic, North and South Native Americans), and (3) Australia/Oceania (Southeast Asia, Australia, Melanesia, Micronesia, Polynesia). These groupings, alone, support the utility of categorization at a broad, that is, geographic, level [e.g., Mongoloid Dental Complex (Hanihara 1968) and Sinodonty characterize the second grouping]. Moreover, the Southeast Asian sample, as would be expected given known population history, is intermediate between the latter two groups. [b]The sub-Saharan sample is divergent from all others[/b] , though it is more or less equidistant between Europe/Mediterranean and Australia/Oceania. [/QUOTE]Joel D. Irish, Anthropological perspectives on Tooth Morphology, p. 279 [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/9IjIzEk.png[/IMG] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Of course teeth are just another part of cranial features. One can turn to data of post-cranial traits i.e. skeletal body which is something Afrocentrics favor for obvious reasons. [i]The raw values in Table 6 suggest [b]that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan[/b] described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.[/i] ---Zakrzewski 2003[/QUOTE]Those patterns do not apply to NW Africans and these are simply due to adaptation as Brace highlighted : [QUOTE] [b]The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat[/b] . Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). [b]It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.”[/b] [/QUOTE]Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31. So it has nothing to do with admixture or genetic relationship. Modern Egyptians still show such traits and they are similar to those predynastic egyptians : [QUOTE] [b]The biological characteristics of modern Egyptians show a north-south cline, reflecting their geographic location between sub-Saharan Africa and the Levant.[/b] This is expressed in DNA, blood groups, serum proteins and genetic disorders (Filon 1996; Hammer et al. 1998; Krings et al. 1999). They are also expressed in phenotypic characteristics that can be identified in the teeth and bones (Crichton 1966; Froment 1992; Keita 1996). These characteristics include head form, facial and nasal characteristics, jaw relationships, tooth size, morphology, [b]and upper/lower limb proportions. In all these features, modern egyptians resemble sub-saharan africans[/b] (Howells 1989, Keita 1995). [/QUOTE]P. Smith, The Palaeo-Biological evidence for admixture between populations in the southern levant and Egypt in the fourth to third millenia BCE, 2002 On the Craniological Study of Egyptians in various periods by M.F Gaballah et al, with reference to the works of both Batrawi 1946 and Sidney Smith 1926, it is said that the available series of [b]modern Egyptian skulls conform more closely with the Southern phenotype that characterized the predynastic and early dynastic cultures of Upper Egypt such as the Naqada[/b] . So egyptians are simply adapted to their environnement yet you call them "arabs" "ifrangi" and cherrypick pictures of the most black looking egyptians. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: North Africans in regards to their skeletal structure are no different from Sub-Saharans especially those in the Sahel region.[/QUOTE][IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/I2QQlj7vgtT6U/giphy.gif[/IMG] You've literally just posted a chart which shows that they are in fact different. Sahelians are simply closer to North africans than other SSAs because they have north african admixture : [QUOTE] [b]And fourth, dentitions of Sub-Saharan/North African boundary groups (i.e., Senegambia (SEN), Tukulor (TUK), Chad (???)) indicate probable North African genetic input based on lower frequencies of LM1 deflecting wrinkle and LM1 cusp 7, and higher UM3 agenesis.[/b] [/QUOTE] https://www.persee.fr/doc/bmsap_0037-8984_1998_num_10_3_2517?q=negroid [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/umyzGc0.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE] [b]Our findings suggest that Eurasian admixture and the European LP allele was introduced into the Fulani through contact with a North African population[/b] /s. We furthermore confirm the link between the lactose digestion phenotype in the Fulani to the MCM6/LCT locus by reporting the first GWAS of the lactase persistence trait. [/QUOTE] https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-019-6296-7 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: But when it comes to actual genetics we know that Africans are indeed diverse and that North Africans comprise a part of that diversity.[/QUOTE]Indeed and you should acknowledge that some Africans can have light skin, straight hair, and Caucasian-like features. Moreover you should stop portraying North Africans as recent invaders and recognize the diversity that exists within the African continent instead of constantly trying to darkwash their ancestors because you don't find enough commonnalities with the modern ones. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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