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Its becoming too confusing but based on Keita's study of Y chromosone haplotypes it appears to be Horn of Africa in origin and not Arab or Berber. ?
rasol Member # 4592
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Data of relevance and comment:
Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages.
These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup espe-cially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M180( (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al.2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002). The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other toward northwestern Africa- The Levantine Corridor versus the Horn of Africa. R. Luis,1,2,* D. J. Rowold,1,* M. Regueiro,2 B. Caeiro,2 C. Cinnioğlu,3 C. Roseman,3 P. A. Underhill,3 L. L. Cavalli-Sforza,3 and R. J. Herrera1
The above study has always confused me because they occasionally transpose references to E3b2-M180 and E3b3-M123.
Luis et. al continue However, the E3b3-M123 chromosomes may have spread predominantly toward the east, whereas E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco (33% and 69% in Moroccan Arabs and Moroccan Berbers, respectively [Cruciani et al. 2002]), dispersed mainly to the west. This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa ∼2 ky ago (Cruciani et al. 2002). The considerably older linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 ky ago) is also compatible with this scenario.
At any rate, Keita is not the 1st to suggest that E3b2 may have diverged in East Africa and then spread north and west. And whether it diverged in Ethiopia or Egypt may be less signficant than the expansion date... which is very recent, as noted above.
Triple Stage Darkness Member # 9424
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The answer to the question would be how old is haplotype V in Ethiopia? We know that haplotype V in Egypt is older than haplotype V in north Africa all points west. The data seem to go against Arredi et al and support the notion that 75% of North African Y chromosones are of a East African Paleolithic origin.
rasol Member # 4592
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The thing about Ethiopia is that it has so many different E3b lineages that the percentiles for individual lineages may be misleading.
After all there are only 100 percentile max to share between E3b, E3b1, E3b2, and E3b3.
Ethiopia could quite conceiveably be the home to most of these lineages.
Triple Stage Darkness Member # 9424
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: The thing about Ethiopia is that it has so many different E3b lineages that the percentiles for individual lineages may be misleading.
After all there are only 100 percentile max to share between E3b, E3b1, E3b2, and E3b3.
Ethiopia could quite conceiveably be the home to most of these lineages.
I agree here especially with regards to E3b3-M34, they say its Middle Eastern, but is found high only in Ethiopians and Jordanians. Either its Ethiopian in origin or Ethiopia has some hellified founder effect going on. I have the full text to that study on Jordanians and E3b3-M34 is very high there.
rasol Member # 4592
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Good logic. Any E3b lineage that is present only in Ethiopia and 'some other country' is a sure sign, especially given the lack of underived E3b in any of these places.
Triple Stage Darkness Member # 9424
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Good logic. Any E3b lineage that is present only in Ethiopia and 'some other country' is a sure sign, especially given the lack of underived E3b in any of these places.
Thats true. For example M34 is found at its highest frequency in Jordanians at 31%, only Ethiopians have the same or more but we know that Ethiopians[Amhara and Tigrai] have their mixture from southern Arabia, not Jordanians. Its low in Oman at 11.6% and even lower in Somalia at 2% [Flores et tal]
Thought2 Member # 4256
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Data of relevance and comment:
[i] This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa ∼2 ky ago (Cruciani et al. 2002). The considerably older linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 ky ago) is also compatible with this scenario.
Thought Writes:
This ~2 ky expansion estimate is consistent with the development of the Garamantian/Carthage trading relationship.
Supercar Member # 6477
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quote:Originally posted by Triple Stage Darkness: The answer to the question would be how old is haplotype V in Ethiopia? We know that haplotype V in Egypt is older than haplotype V in north Africa all points west. The data seem to go against Arredi et al and support the notion that 75% of North African Y chromosones are of a East African Paleolithic origin.
Apparently, further studies need to be done on V markers in both Sudan and Ethiopia, where they have also been identified. I haven't read yet, about any significant contacts between northwest African Berber speakers and people in the African Horn, much less V representing gene flow from NW Africa to that region. In Sudan, its presence there, is less questionable, pertaining to how it might have arrived there either through Saharan contacts, or from its Northly neighbour, Egypt. But again, the age here, is important to determine whether the V markers in Sudan may represent migrating groups from the African Horn, down the Nile, and into Egypt, from where, it would have then moved westward.
rasol Member # 4592
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quote:Supercar posted: In Sudan, its presence there, is less questionable, pertaining to how it might have arrived there either through Saharan contacts, or from its Northly neighbour, Egypt
quote:The higher frequency of V in Ethiopia than in Nubia or upper (southern) Egypt, has to be taken into account in any discussion of variation in the Nile Valley, especially in the context of the findings of historical linguistics.
- SOY Keita
Supercar Member # 6477
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quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Supercar posted: In Sudan, its presence there, is less questionable, pertaining to how it might have arrived there either through Saharan contacts, or from its Northly neighbour, Egypt
quote:The higher frequency of V in Ethiopia than in Nubia or upper (southern) Egypt, has to be taken into account in any discussion of variation in the Nile Valley, especially in the context of the findings of historical linguistics.
- SOY Keita
...as would seem to favor the latter scenario that I mentioned at the end of my comment.
Thought2 Member # 4256
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Supercar posted: In Sudan, its presence there, is less questionable, pertaining to how it might have arrived there either through Saharan contacts, or from its Northly neighbour, Egypt
quote:The higher frequency of V in Ethiopia than in Nubia or upper (southern) Egypt, has to be taken into account in any discussion of variation in the Nile Valley, especially in the context of the findings of historical linguistics.
- SOY Keita
...as would seem to favor the latter scenario that I mentioned at the end of my comment.
Thought Writes:
Founder effect. Maybe very simmilar to the Upper Paleolithic spread of U6, possibly from NE Africa.
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