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[QUOTE]Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]what about rejection of multiple gods? It's one thing to be a god among many gods but another to be the one and only god [/qb][/QUOTE]Indeed. And this is what set Judaism apart from the other regional religious beliefs. Time and time again the Jewish prophets assert this and condemn those Hebrews/Israelites who follow after other Gods. Some years ago on Reloaded, a poster appeared who asserted the complete derivation of Judaism and Christianity from Ancient Egyptian religion. I pointed out that he was gonna run into a hornet's nest of problems making such sweeping claims, particularly when he stepped outside the friendly audiences he was used to. and that he had better be ready for some serious challenges where more than rhetoric would be needed to establish his claims. A recap shown below as it touches on some of thee issues. This is not a theological primer. Many are already familiar with the basic assertions of Christianity which are little elaborated save as quick background. The recap DIRECTLY addresses some of the common "Egypt is the source" arguments: ------------------------------ -------------------- HORUS BORN OF VIRGIN? In the most common version of the Egyptian story, Osiris is murdered by Set and cut into 14 pieces. Isis his wife, who has had relations with her husband before, retrieves all of the pieces, save one, his penis. So Isis makes a wooden penis, hooks it up with the reconstituted Osiris, has sex, and then gives birth to Horus. Set attempts to anally rape Horus later but Horus catches the semen in hand and escapes crying to Isis. Isis helps Horus later to have an erection, masturbate and smear some of the semen on Set's food as payback. A number of other similar virgin birth claims appear in other peoples, such Zeus spilling his semen on the side of a mountain which eventually became a pomegranate tree, after which a pomegranate falls on a woman below who becomes pregnant. Objectors will point out that none of these "virgin birth" stories is even remotely close to that described in the Christian scriptures. If Isis for example, was the wife of Osiris to begin with and had relations with him, then the reconfigured penis, how credibly could this qualify as any sort of "virgin birth" as argued by Egypto-centric advocates?? And this is only ONE of several problems with this claim. THE CRUCIFIXION CAME FROM EGYPT VIA HORUS/OSIRIS? In Christianity, as is commonly known, the crucifixion is the process by which Jesus, who is seen as God in human condition, taking on all of mankind's sins upon himself, thus securing God's forgiveness, and covering men from all the sins and failures, thus allowing men a chance to go free from the judgment to come after death. A number of Egypto-advocates argue that all this came from Egypt for Horus likewise died a horrible death, though in various versions he doesn't die at all, is merely stung by a scorpion, or his death is conflated or combined with the death of Osiris. But parallels seem a stretch say objectors. Neither Osiris or Horus was nailed to a wooden tree or cross, and their deaths had nothing to do with saving mankind from all their sins. Osiris torn to pieces *prior" to being raised from the dead, while Horus is stung by a scorpion before he comes back. And the mere presence of art where the gods are shown with arms outstretched, does not equal "crucifixion." If this were the case anytime someone in ancient art shows up with outstretched arms such as Athena, or Dionysus drinking some wine and waving his arms wide, then we should all consider them "crucified"? THE RESURRECTION CAME FROM EGYPT? In Christianity, the Resurrection from the dead is the demonstration of the power of God in raising the atoning sin-bearer from death to assume his place in heaven, having accomplished redemption for all mankind- with those believing on him slated for a day of resurrection in glory, without any charge or judgment against them for the sins and falsehoods committed in this life. In other words, the death and resurrection of Christ guarantees the believer in Christ, a clean slate on the other side, exempt from the JUDGMENT OR RECKONING TO COME. This is basic stuff taught in most Sunday schools. In the Biblical narrative, the resurrected Christ walks among his followers for 40 days, affirming the fact that his sacrifice which will cover them against judgment after death, appearing to some 500 at one time during one occasion, and at the end of this period, ascends up to heaven, affirming his own future return and their own resurrection among the redeemed. So is this core doctrine of Christianity from Ancient Egypt? Objectors point out that there are a number of claimants asserting that their ancient resurrection stories are what has supplied Christianity, but in almost all cases, there is no clear instance of a dying and rising deity. In some cases, deities returned but have not died. In other cases, the gods die, but do not return. Osiris did not rise from the dead and return to this world as did Jesus. instead he was made king of the underworld. Certainly both the ancient Egyptians and the Christians agree that there is a judgment to come based on the actions of the body and the motives of the heart. The outcome of that judgment will determine one's existence in the afterlife. Cultures the world over believe that there is a final reckoning or judgment to come that will reflect earthly motives and actions. But this basic human religious beliefs are no monopoly of Egypt. PHARAOH AS THE INCARNATE GOD LIKE CHRIST? It is true that the pharaohs were sometimes seen as deities, and mediators between the various gods and man. This "divine kingship" aspect appears in several places in Africa. But is it really the "true" source for standard Christian beliefs? For one thing, in Christian belief, multiple gods are deemed to be false. People may believe on them and offer sacrifices etc, but such multiple gods or entities are seen as false representatives. Hence in Christian belief, Christ is God, come in human CONDITION, to take on all the many sufferings and failures, and sins of man. There is no shape-shifting one moment, then something else at other times like Zeus and the others in Greek religion. Thus pharaoh as one of the gods would be deemed false in both Christianity and Judaism, and on top of that, many pharaohs worshipped multiple entities. Hence pharaoh could not be a credible source of Christian beliefs which expressly forbid rebellion, multiple gods worship etc.. Second the human pharaohs all die and are not resurrected in a glorified form, and they too are subject to the dread Day of Judgment or dread weighing upon the scales." Christ by contrast, is seen as God and having divine power and authority is in Christian belief, Master of the Day of Judgment. Those who believe on him, and accept his sacrifices for their sins do not appear on the dread day, to be weighed on the scales. This Christ himself asserts in John 5 that all judgment is committed to him. The Apostle Paul who gives us the earliest writings of the New Testament affirms the claim, asserting in Acts 17 that God a day has been set as to the judgment of "the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed, giving the proof of it to all in having raised him from among the dead." No pharaoh could make such a claim, indeed no mere human could make such a claim, or have such power. If such be the case as argued in Christianity, then the entire future existence of the human soul on the other side of death is in the hands of Christ, and indeed the whole habitable earth, at the time appointed. No mere pharaoh, all of whom would die, and themselves would face judgment, could make any claim even beginning to approach the sweeping scope of the Christ. Until the time appointed, men are of course perfectly free to accept or reject the Christ, and his atoning work. Nothing similar could be said of any mere pharaoh. But could it not be objected that in the Books of Moses, pharaoh is recognized as a ruler with power, the same as God who is himself asserted as ruler of all existence in Jewish belief? Indeed. And did not the self same whom the Hebrews called "Jehovah" (among other titles) engage in a contest with pharaoh over the fate of said Hebrews in Egypt, ruler to ruler? Quite true. But in all these cases pharaoh, while recognized as a king with power, still remains a disobedient human, subject to the chastisement of God. Said human pharaoh is firmly put in his place by God, who uses him to demonstrate divine power, as every credible Jewish Bible commentary notes. Thus in the contest pharaoh is given scope to use many of his powers, not only military, but including magical ones. These however are limited and ultimately fail as shown in the Passover, and at the Red Sea. Even the magics of pharaoh's servitors, permitted in Exodus 7:12, result in the serpents of Egypt being swallowed up by the serpent of Moses' staff. Thus the most prominent appearance of an Egyptian pharaoh in Biblical text, is of a disobedient and rebellious man humbled and put in his place by God. Hence no pharaoh role serves as a credible forerunner or example of the Christ. Quite the opposite. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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